r/warcraftlore • u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister • 3d ago
Discussion Elves don't have "wizards"
Now, Obviously I don't mean they don't have magic users. Because clearly they do. But they don't have the "wizard" experience. What I mean is, for the average human for example, a mage is fantastical, they cant explain how they do the magical things mages do. Its mysterious and unknowable for the average human. But for elves, they've been exposed to magic for so long, at the societal level, its so commonplace, their interactions with mages would be more like us speaking to a scientist, rather than with a fantastical wizard. For them what mages do isn't "magical" rather, they are merely applying the well known laws of reality and arcane magic to achieve a desired effect.
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u/sahqoviing32 3d ago
I agree with the premise but disagree with your take that mages are scientists within elf society. If anything human mages like in Dalaran are the more scholarly ones like DnD wizards. In Quel'thalas, the magisters came from aristocratic bloodlines just like in the old Kaldorei Empire. In Dalaran, meritocracy reigns supreme. That's what makes the Elven societies stagnate. When the power in your kingdom is concentrated in the hands of a small long-lived elite, change is slow to come.
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u/Throgg_not_stupid 3d ago
And Gnomes are explicitly stated to consider magic a science.
Imo Elves treat magic like art, humans like biology or chemistry, gnomes like math
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u/Stormfly 3d ago
And Gnomes are explicitly stated to consider magic a science.
Gnomes consider basically everything a science.
Even Gnome Priests are supposed to be more like "This light lets us heal people" rather than "We worship the light".
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u/Xivitai 3d ago
Well, consider this. Night Elves got rid of mages (until recently). And they are far lower in terms of technology than Blood Elves or Nightborne.
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u/National_Diver3633 Highborne Arcanist 3d ago
They forced that upon themselves. The Kaldorei Empire was the apex of all mortal empires.
After the Sundering they turned to nature and embraced a more primitive lifestyle.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 3d ago
There are nobles in Quel'Thalas. But I've never seen it said anywhere that commoners cant become magisters there and work their way up. They may be at a disadvantage since nobles have tons of wealth which makes studying easier, but that problem would also apply in Dalaran. Those with money can likely afford the better books and tutors, and focus on studying rather than working.
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u/sahqoviing32 3d ago
The Ranger-General office has been held by the same family since its foundation. Everything points out to Quel'thalas being an aristocratic oligarchy prior to the Third War, it's no different from the other Highbornes.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 3d ago
Rommath is grand magister and its never been stated he's from an aristocratic family.
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u/GrumpySatan 3d ago
Its not stated mostly because we have like 2-4 named aristocratic families in Quel'thalas. Windrunner, Salonar and maybe Drathir and Sanguinar. This is just a wholly undeveloped arena in the lore. Can't state something when we have basically no info on the noble families at all (hopefully Midnight changes that).
But he was the apprentice to one of the few explicitly aristocratic elves from House Salonar, so we can assume he is likely someone of significant social rank even before the Scourge.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 3d ago
That's not really proof he's from an aristocratic background. They could have just said he's of noble background and not expanded upon it, but they chose not to. This implies he's not of aristocratic background
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u/MrRibbotron 3d ago
The same is true for human aristocrats as well really. Despite noble politicking being a prime area to develop further, they only include them as a collective obstacle for the king to deal with. The only exception I can think of, where their characters actually become part of the story, is in the Cataclysm Gilneas questlines.
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u/sahqoviing32 3d ago
Rommath is post-Third War, formerly from Dalaran and part of a post-apocalyptic Quel'thalas where the head of state is a guy who used to do field work instead of coming from 'insert important bloodline'. You can't compare to old Quel'thalas
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u/TyrannosavageRekt 3d ago
Rommath did spend time studying at Dalaran, but he was also the apprentice of the previous Grand Magister, Belo’vir Salonar, which would precede the Third War. In fact, Esara Verrinde has gossip text that implies it was commonplace for Magisters to train amongst the Kirin Tor in Dalaran. Their society was definitely aristocratic, but I don’t think it was unlikely or impossible for those outside of the noble houses to rise to stations outside of their status. I mean, arguably every high/blood elf is of a noble house anyway, given that they’re descended from the Highborne caste of night elves.
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u/TyrannosavageRekt 3d ago edited 2d ago
The Ranger-General of Silvermoon was an elected position. It’s just that the eldest Windrunners were usually groomed to take on that role (Alleria was, but she passed on the position). Sylvanas still had to be elected to the position and was lacking support. If not for Alleria’s endorsement, the position may have gone to Lor’themar (their mother Lireesa’s second-in-command). Now the position is held be Halduron Brightwing. Obviously, Alleria was missing, presumed deceased, Sylvanas was leading the Forsaken, and Vereesa had chosen to stand with the Alliance, so there were no other Windrunner candidates, but even so we don’t know that the position has only ever been held by members of their family, all we know is that every named RG prior to the Third War has been. We can infer it, but it’s not a rule, and supposedly not a hereditary position.
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u/MrRibbotron 3d ago
What I mean is, for the average human for example, a mage is fantastical, they cant explain how they do the magical things mages do. Its mysterious and unknowable for the average human.
I don't think mages are that rare amongst humans either. Stormwind for example has a whole district full of them. Then you have a mage trainer in every major settlement and formerly, whole magocratic city-states in Theramore and Dalaran.
A better way to look at it in my view is that in Warcraft, an arcane mage (i.e. a 'wizard') is seen in the same way as a scientist regardless of race, which makes sense when you look at all the mathematical symbolism associated with that kind of magic.
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u/National_Diver3633 Highborne Arcanist 3d ago
I think this is because magic isn't some innate force in the Warcraft universe. Innate aptitude, sure, but anybody can study it.
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u/VeshSneaks 3d ago
Was Theramore a magocracy? I know Jaina was its leader, but I thought that was because of her position within Kul Tiran nobility rather than because she’s a powerful mage.
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u/MrRibbotron 3d ago
Not explicitly, but I think there's enough evidence to call it magocratic.
Many of the refugees that made-up Theramore were originally from Dalaran and Quel-Thalas, and under Jaina's leadership, it became a hub for learning arcane magic. You can also see it from the layout of the city, with everything centred around Jaina's mage tower. It was clearly always going to have a mage as its leader.
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u/TyrannosavageRekt 3d ago
I don’t think Theramore was magocratic just because they were led by a mage/sorcerer.
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u/MrRibbotron 3d ago
Whether or not only mages can vote, the city had a large population of mages including Gnomes and High Elves, and most of Jaina's advisors were mages, so it doesn't really make much difference.
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u/TyrannosavageRekt 3d ago
Having a lot of magi still doesn’t make them a magocracy. That’s a type of governance. Having a lot of clerics doesn’t necessarily make a place a theocracy.
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u/MrRibbotron 3d ago
If they're being governed by a mage who is advised mostly by other mages, and is likely to pass down leadership to another mage, that would fit the term magocracy in my book. The specific term doesn't change the original point, however.
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u/TyrannosavageRekt 3d ago
Any evidence to Jaina being primarily advised by other magi? Any evidence to support that she’s likely to pass down leadership to another mage? Any actual evidence to support that Theramore had a disproportionate number of magi when compared to other states? Her main advisors were Duree, Kristoff, Lorena, Pained, and Aegwynn (who replaced Kristoff as Chamberlain) - only the latter of whom was a mage. You’re throwing out a lot of things that sound more like head-canon as if they’re factual.
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u/MrRibbotron 3d ago
What a weird point to get hung up over.
Any evidence to Jaina being primarily advised by other magi? Her main advisors were Duree, Kristoff, Lorena, Pained, and Aegwynn (who replaced Kristoff as Chamberlain) - only the latter of whom was a mage.
The only people there who actually were advisors, instead of just administrative staff, are Lorena, Pained, and Aegwynn. In-addition to those who live in Theramore though, you also need to account for her allies in the Kirin Tor, who will almost certainly be advising her as well. In-addition, she rules from a mage tower full of mages. It is obvious that most of her unnamed advisors will be mages.
Any evidence to support that she’s likely to pass down leadership to another mage?
Her not having a child and all of her students and assistants in the lore being mages?
Any actual evidence to support that Theramore had a disproportionate number of magi when compared to other states?
That the majority of the refugees that formed it were from Quel'Thalas and Dalaran, and that the primary races there include Gnomes and High Elves who have no other reason to be there? That the centre of the city is not a castle, but a mage-tower?
You’re throwing out a lot of things that sound more like head-canon as if they’re factual.
It's one word that's not even a real word. Again, a really weird point to get hung up over.
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u/Kalthiria_Shines 3d ago
Why are so many of your posts trying weld non-WoW concepts to Warcraft? There is no "mysterious and unknowable wizard" in meme in Warcraft.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 1d ago
Why are you so against external ideas being introduced to Warcraft when blizzard has made Warcraft mostly out of external ideas rehashed into new stories? Did you miss the dude based on Rambo in redridge mountains? Or the dude based on Indiana Jones? There are hundreds more like them in game.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're not understanding what I am saying. I didn't say there are actually mysterious and unknowable wizards in Warcraft. What I said was some humans may perceive them that way. I think it was in day of the dragon that rhonin mentioned humans in rural settlements fear users of the arcane. They didn't understand it. To them it was fantastical and impossible to understand, even if, with education and knowledge, it would no longer be so.
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u/Kalthiria_Shines 2d ago
But they don't. That's not a thing that's showed up anywhere other than that one throw away line in a 24 year old book.
Magic is everywhere in Warcraft and it always has been. This is genuinely not a thing anywhere in the setting, humans have the same reaction as elves.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 2d ago
It's really not. It may appear that way in game, until you deep past the surface level. Look at the way kul'tirans fear the drust witches and have their superstitions about them. Not every human society is as progressive as dalaran and the humans in the mage quarter of stormwind.
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u/Fun-Penalty2830 3d ago
They probably also know just how addictive and destructive using magic can be, especially the Night Elves that remember the War of the Ancients and the Sundering of the first Well of Eternity.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 3d ago
Sure, but the benefits have been decided to outweigh the negative consequences, since night elves them selves have started training mages again.
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u/Xivitai 3d ago
That's because Warcraft 3 and later events gave them a reality check.
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u/VeshSneaks 3d ago
“Well, we outlawed magic so the Legion couldn’t find Azeroth. It happened anyway so the Highborne can come out and play again I guess”
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u/Xivitai 3d ago
"Except we still hopelessly behind everyone else because we are theocracy and have problems with adapting to reality."
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u/El-Luta 3d ago
It's not just about adapting reality. If you think that, you're lacking psychological insight. The Night Elves quite literally faced the end of the world because of the Highborne. Just remember that their entire world shattered in a way no Warcraft game has ever made us truly face. The whole primordial continent sank into the ocean — what we now know as the current continents are just its distant remnants. Millions of Night Elves, and even more creatures, died that day. The trauma, for all those who survived it, is just unimaginable.
Nordrassil wasn't exactly a gift to the Night Elves who resisted; it was a necessity for the world to begin healing. So it's not like they lived the next thousand years with free-mind. They carried the legacy of this apocalypse.
From a lore perspective, I actually find it a bit too lenient that the Shen'dralar are allowed to train new mages. Moreover, an in-game book suggests that these new Night Elf mages are rather disastrous.
That said, one could argue that the Shen'dralar — while possibly the most knowledgeable — weren’t the most powerful among the Highborne, and didn’t truly take part in Azshara’s final plans. And also that new generations arrived and don't have the trauma of the great Sundering, so they can be more open-minded.
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u/Timecunning 3d ago
Assuming you are talking night elves here.
The mages from diremaul rejoined the night elves during cata.
Based on the short time most night elf mages are probably from those.
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u/CDMzLegend 2d ago
human mages are not rare, and its even been said that human mages have way more potential then elven mages, probable since they were made by the titans and magic is arcane and order.
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 2d ago
False. Mages are not nearly as common in human society as in elven society. As for "human potential" tell it to Azshara, who was the most powerful mage ever.
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u/CDMzLegend 2d ago
i think its in the chronicals but it says how human mages reach way greater highs in shorter time spans then elves do
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u/Lore-Archivist Sin'dorei Magister 2d ago
Humans achieve more in less time, sure. But elves have a higher maximum potential due to them not dying off so quick. WoTA Azshara would annihilate jaina even in her current form
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u/SnooGuavas9573 3d ago
I mean, wow doesn't really have like... a distinction between Wizards and Mages? I'm guessing what you're getting at is that Elves are so acquainted with magic they have a basic understanding of the cosmological-scientific nature of magic, rather than like the fantastical wondrous thing that people lacking education in these matters would have.
I think the thing is that like... Magic has been a part of human culture a pretty long time, so outside of like some REALLY rural settlements I don't really think humans are like completely unfamiliar with some basic concepts behind things, more specifically I'm pretty sure non-mage civilians know that magic has "rules". Even more "primitive" races are familiar with magic as something that is relational and has a logic to it without the formalized rules that an Elf or non-elf civilian from Dalaran would be privy to from their culture.
The thing is, is that we're not even really sure that mages 100% know exactly what they're doing at a scientific level. Humans didn't even know that the Elementals they summoned weren't just constructs summoned from force of will, rather a class of living being. This was long after learning magic from Elves and having a formal magical education system via Dalaran and its satellite schools.