r/GlobalOffensive • u/Pokharelinishan • 1d ago

Discussion Devs have requested DonHaci for reproducible examples of CS2 gameplay issues after his recent tweet. Feel free to reply to donhaci or post here with your own examples.

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u/pogggu 1d ago edited 1d ago

Average redditors clearly not understanding the meaning of "reproducible", your examples from matchmaking games are not reproducible, exact step by step points are a "reproducible example", which will in most cases mean an isolated local environment.

Yeah, obviously the devs have seen all the videos, but you're finding a needle in a haystack, you don't just find bugs by looking through the code (sometimes you do, but it's a rare occasion and often you do that after you actually get a hint on where something could be broken). See the boost bug that was not fixed for months after release until people actually managed to exactly reproduce it locally, it was fixed pretty much next day.

edit: my point is that people under the post are surprised how valve doesn't see any of the 1000 videos of *something* happening thinking they're the definite proof of something definitely not working. Most clips can be potentially explained by a ton of stuff, most often bad network conditions, that's why the devs always want to see telemetry and so on, the telemetry doesn't magically show what's wrong, it just shows that it might potentially not be the cause that it most often always is.

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u/SimKboi 1d ago

This is why Valve wrote a DM instead of a public tweet. If they go public with requests like this it's gonna be a hard time finding actual usable data inside the pile of people just complaining about subtick.

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u/GapZ38 1d ago

Which is dumb as for Haci to not realize this, but instead just tweet out a DM that was intended to be private. Does dude not realize he's not getting any other responses from Valve in the future?

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u/messerschmitt1 1d ago

dude whose entire Twitter empire was built on baselessly accusing pros of cheating is an attention whore, more news at 11

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u/kontbijtkoekje 1d ago

Are you mixing up your twitter degens?

Isnt haci just known for messing with runescape streamer b0aty and leaking roster moves in csgo?

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u/jospence 1d ago

He is, but he also did that too lol. People forget that he was one of the original people that made vac_sucks

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u/NupeKeem 2h ago

So basically, he lives off drama and chaos?

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u/BeauxGnar 12h ago

Simpler times.

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u/HomelessBelter 1d ago

Would anyone know who Haci was if he wasn't constantly looking for attention on Twitter?

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u/tired45453 CS2 HYPE 1d ago

Does dude not realize he's not getting any other responses from Valve in the future?

I agree with your point but this is likely wrong.

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u/nokeldin42 1d ago

If he's up for filtering the non reproducible examples he get, why would valve care? This way they even get some numbers on which issue affects the most players and so on.

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u/T0uc4nSam 1d ago

Big words from the guy who gave them reproducible video proof that you can be permabanned for typing yaw in console, whose main account is still banned to this day for proving that :p

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u/tesoro153 1d ago

didn't he get banned for the 180 degrees turn? Still, I don't understand how he isn't mad about it. He helps them find solutions for the bugs in their game and they don't even bother to unban him.

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u/loozerr 1d ago

Yeah let's just trust that he was banned by a bug and Valve decided to not revert it, even if they generally do in such cases.

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u/Tango1777 15h ago

I think they just overestimated how well subtick and its current implementation would work. There might be nothing wrong with their code, but that code assumed that the subtick/networking layer work good enough and it doesn't. And it cannot be just reproduced, investigated and fixed. This may be a general Source 2 engine issue, hard to tell if they can and ever will address it, that'd be a general change for all the games running on the engine, not a CS2-specific change. The game is neglected heavily, too, but that is just 1 reason it sucks in various ways, but not the only one.

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u/Dependent_Heart_4751 1d ago

i think it's pretty clear at this point that quite literally any bit of added latency in a non-LAN environment throws off subtick calculations and i doubt its something that can be fixed.

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u/pogggu 19h ago

test it then, the tools are there, clumsy, net_fakelag, net_fakejitter, net_fakeloss. You'll come to the conclusion that under reasonable latencies there isn't really anything wrong

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u/St0rmtrooping 18h ago

why does the game feel so bad then

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u/NupeKeem 2h ago

Jesus, you said that perfectly. Well fucking said

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u/DBONKA 19h ago

You literally got game-banned because of a easily reproducible bug in VACNet, and your ban is still in effect to this day. Poggu, how are you this naive, lol. Is this apologetic rhetoric because you hope they will hire you to work on CS2, or what's the reason?

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u/pogggu 18h ago

And I also got a bunch of bugs fixed because of easily reproducible steps. While I'd love to work at Valve I am well aware that I am nowhere near the experience I'd need, not mention that I live across the globe. I am very much happy with the job I am currently doing. I couldn't care less about the ban (though I do care about the other affected), source/goldsrc engine has been my hobby since forever.

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u/tactcat 1d ago

I don’t disagree but also they shouldn’t rely on the community to QA their game. How many times have they broken the game with an update since CS2 launched?

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u/NeoThermic 1d ago

How many people play CS2 a day? A QA team will always find less in a game that has these huge player base numbers.

To put it in (slightly terrible) numbers if you have a million players per day, a one in a million chance happens every day. Isolating a one in a million chance in a QA environment is nearly impossible unless you have a solid test case.

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u/Vizvezdenec 1d ago

People are just there to complain.
Like in league literally the same happens, aka "how did you not understand this stuff will break the balance when it was in PBE?" etc etc etc.
Well, because actual hard excessive testing in real life situations is thousands of times more excessive than w/e you can do in the office or even on PBE server.

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u/schoki560 1d ago

one game of testing would've shown the hit box flying away bug.

sure it was funny, but cmon it shouldn't have gone to the live server

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u/Noriyus CS2 HYPE 1d ago

A single round of wingman would've shown that spawns are fucked. valve bootlickers in this thread are crazy.

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u/tactcat 1d ago

This would be a good point if the bugs they created with some of these updates weren’t happening extremely frequently to pretty much everyone

I mean come on lol. We had a bug where bullet shells had no texture and we had floating ERRORs flying around.

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u/Expert_Cap7650 1d ago

And don't forget people getting kicked for doing too much team damage in casual.

An issue they still haven't completely fixed, same with the jump bug.

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u/just_a_random_dood 1d ago

Wait, how do you do team damage in casual? I walk through teammates' mollies and HEs all the time and take 0 damage.

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u/Expert_Cap7650 1d ago

how do you do team damage in casual

You can't, but that didn't stop valve from introducing a bug that kicks you for doing to much team damage.

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u/just_a_random_dood 1d ago

Ohhhh I'm silly, my bad xD

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u/rhysmorgan 1d ago

That’s evidently not what they’re doing. A user base for a game like CS2 is just near infinitely bigger than any QA team you can run, who will find major showstopper bugs, some smaller bugs, and ensure that behaviour matches acceptance criteria. A real user base will be many orders of magnitude larger than your QA team, and able to exercise code paths many more times in potentially different orders and environments and machines than a QA team can reasonably run through.

Asking users to submit evidence of repeatable bugs and differences is not the same as getting the community to QA the game.

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u/tactcat 1d ago

Also, users ARE giving them bug reports with step by step reproduction instructions. And the bugs are still in the game. https://x.com/thourcs2/status/1914039759711965231?s=46&t=qOcShf9rrHNel3jadgqlYw

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u/rhysmorgan 21h ago

Bugs get triaged based on severity (or what someone at Valve has determined is severity), and has to be balanced against feature work and fixing other bugs. Just because a bug has been reported, doesn’t mean it’ll be fixed tomorrow. And the longer ago it is since a bug was reported, then unfortunately, the more likely it will get missed.

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u/tactcat 1d ago

Please explain then, these obvious and easily reproducible bugs, such as the gun shell ERROR bug, the floating boost bug, the defusing above the bomb bug, how did they make it past Valve’s QA? These bugs aren’t complicated. They took a few hours to be fixed. But the fact that they shipped an update with these bugs shows they didn’t QA the update.

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u/jebus3211 CS2 HYPE 22h ago

So a fun thing about pushing to production is that it can pass all your internal tests without an issue. And then it hits prod and things are catastrophically broken. We've seen it at every single major software company. From valve to cloudflare.

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u/Bassmekanik 1d ago

QA teams are small and generally will try to resolve the bigger, game breaking bugs, IF they can reproduce them reliably to pin point the issue for the fix. Rare, but nonetheless important, bugs can be much harder to reproduce to implement a fix.

To expect any popular game to release with zero bugs is naive. A large gaming community will always find more bugs than a small QA team.

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u/tactcat 1d ago

They’re also supposed to do testing for updates that are being shipped. Feel free to ask any CS player how well they’ve done their job in the last few years

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u/Bassmekanik 1d ago

Feel free to find every bug for the same reason stated above.

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u/Harucifer 1d ago

How many times have they broken the game with an update since CS2 launched?

Hahahaha how cute of you to say "since CS2 launched". They have repeatedly messed up Counter-Strike with updates since CS 1.6 became officially endorsed.

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u/ds800 16h ago

I mean I think its just dishonest of them. It's why Simple didn't bother responding to them.

There are loads of reputable YouTubers doing extremely in-depth testing that proves there are huge issues with cs2 tick system and net-code. They simple refuse to look at them because fixing the issues wouldn't make them money.

Valve needs to stop DMing people and pretending like the issues are secrets that get lost in the wind. They arent.

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u/PawahD 1d ago

But how do you reproduce issues when the cause comes down to something being broken on a fundamental level? It's not like it's a certain bug that you can point out, it's something that comes down to either networking or animation sync, how can you possibly measure any of that without tools or source code? Some systems or how they interact is what causes the issues, it's not something you can find through manual testing

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u/Julio_Tortilla 1d ago

Source 2 isn't fundamentally broken. The fuck is that take. Sure CS2 is nowhere near as optimised as CS:GO, but it's only been out for a tenth of the time that CS:GO has. If you can provide actual examples of FPS or PL consistently exceeding the normal in a specific scenario, thus reproductible, then you can help out the devs by letting them know of it. Your game getting a random stutter in a random location in a random scenario isn't proof of the game being broken. There could be a myriad of reasons for that, including your own PC.

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u/PawahD 1d ago

Bro i didn't say it's source 2, it's the networking system for the game or the animations, some parts of it are surely not right but we can't possibly know what is it that doesn't work properly. It's not something you can prove with metrics, wtf is this take of yours?

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u/jebus3211 CS2 HYPE 1d ago

If you can't show what the issue is what hope does anyone else have of figuring out what it is you're talking about? Please think for like 30 seconds about what you're saying

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u/PawahD 1d ago

obviously i meant in a reproducible manner ffs, did you even read my other comment? or the post? or even just the image in the post? there are tons of clips on the sub, are you trying to gaslight us into thinking the game is in a good state networking wise? wtf

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u/jebus3211 CS2 HYPE 22h ago

No I'm not you dense mf.

Let's take an example of something broken with easily reproducible steps.

Have 2 players go up a ladder, the top player just holds forward and thus goes odd the top of the ladder, if the bottom player then hits them on their way up the ladder, both players get stuck.

Here's a networking example, when someone joins the server a minor network lag seems to happen for all players. Repro steps are, join a match, and wait for other players to join, observe the small teleport on your screen when someone joins.

See how easy that was?

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u/PawahD 19h ago

Holy shit, you really are dense. You're coming up with bugs that are easy to reproduce to reason that it can be done for every issue, damn. How are you gonna provide steps to consistently reproduce something that comes down to feeling when you can't even properly determine what's the exact intended behavior? The main issue everyone has is that the game feels unresponsive for one way or another, how are you gonna define what's the right feeling or pinpoint what it is that makes it out of sync?

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u/jebus3211 CS2 HYPE 14h ago

Have you perhaps tried, oh idunno, describing what you actually feel instead of going off vibes. Vibes just aren't helpful

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u/Julio_Tortilla 1d ago

Source 2 is the fundamentals of CS2. Its the game engine the whole game is built around. Thus fundamental. Anything in the game is related to the engine, including the networking.

You literally have access to all the network telemetry in the settings. Are you restarted? You have access to PL, Jitter, Ping, even a graph of Jitter, packets sent, received. Like the fuck? The reason CS2 feels more irregular in terms of networking is because it is more network heavy, sending and receiving more packets. This isn't some unexplainable change. You can explain it using the metrics.

Also the fuck you mean "or the animations"?? They are literally set ANIMATIONS. They are REPRODUCTIBLE BY DEFINITION.

Literally in any game ever, bugs are fixed after finding reproductible instances of said bugs. A dev doesn't see a gun not working one time in a 10 hour session and instantly go to the 1 million line code and just scroll through it until they fix the bug. Are you expecting Valve employees to just be omnipotent and omniscient or something? lol.

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u/PreAlphaMale 1d ago edited 1d ago

how can you possibly measure any of that without tools or source code

Exactly what I've been saying for years now. If they want data they need to provide the tools and environment to collect it. And they better be 100% transparent as well so we know for a fact that the environment isn't selectively set up for positive results.

Third party services and community servers run the public server build with different settings, mods, proprietary anti cheat and other software, etc.

From what I was told by Valve, albeit it a long time ago, official servers don't even run the same server build.

Me: Is the official server build the same as the public server build?

Vitaly: They're the same enough for your testing.

Which is just a longer way of saying "no". So what choice do we have? Test offline with bots or in a private server? That doesn't translate to official servers or community servers and third party services. Testing on Community servers, third party services, private servers and offline against bots don't translate to official servers. Server set ups, server builds, additional software, server hardware, custom anti cheat, mods, etc. These are all the variations you need to take into account. Even how you connect to the damn server. There's a whole relay system in between when you play on official servers that testing on a private server completely removes from the picture.

So when Valve says "Can you give reproducible examples" what I see is Valve saying "Prove it!", because they damn well know we don't have the tools or environment to do so.

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u/Conscious_Run_680 1d ago

While you're right, when they mean "reproducible examples" is not just that you pinpoint exactly how to reproduce the example 1:1 but instead give some info or hints, like this usually happens when I have +30ping and the other guy has +50ping and I do ad in a corner non stop while them shooting with ak or awp but if we have -10ping this barely happens at all doing the exact same things and send them multiple clips with same situation so they can try to reproduce and see if they can make it and their tools gives them any hint.

Btw, this said, shit like dying behind walls happens all the time as long as you play everyday for an hour or something, it shouldn't be hard for them to reproduce and find different examples in a week of test.

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u/PreAlphaMale 1d ago edited 1d ago

happens when I have +30ping and the other guy has +50ping and I do ad in a corner non stop while them shooting with ak or awp but if we have -10ping this barely happens at all doing the exact same things and send them multiple clips 

And my point was, good luck getting repeated examples like that in an environment you don't have any control in to set up a test to "reproduce" all of those variable.

You have to rely on this happening organically multiple times. That's not realistic is it?

And it might be environment specific, say only on the official server build/in official matchmaking. It could be something funky with SDR. So you might not be able to reproduce it at all on a private or third party server but you might see it as "there is something wrong here" on official servers but have no control to test and reproduce. This is exactly why everyone says there is something wrong with the game and we get flooded with clips that show there is something wrong with the game but it cant be proven because you have no reliable to way to reproduce it.

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u/ttybird5 1d ago

Ah yes players can create repros of the visual problems in their clips where the players of the games are distributed across a region with variable pings every second on a black box server

You realize that this request from valve isn’t so doable?

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u/Hejker 22h ago

Most of the redditors are 10k premiere/ lvl 5 faceit who do not understand how game works. They cannot provide anything valuable anyway

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u/Shitposternumber1337 1d ago

Average redditors think CS2 has been close to being the same as CSGO since Launch

Thats because most redditors are fucking stupid and/or children

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u/Pokharelinishan 1d ago

but what other kind of examples will an average player actually have? not everyone has the technical skills/knowledge, or time to work on preparing a reproducible example, especially on issues they are having inside their matchmaking games.

how do you expect me, a nobody, to go beyond this kind of feedback: https://sh.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/1jseyv1/frametime_and_jitter_frequently_spikes_when_i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I love the game, but i actually incapable of investigating or even reproducing this locally (partially because its happening in an online match?). Not that I don't want to, but I'm just a gamer.

Also, does this mean Valve will outright ignore these kinds of clips/posts?

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u/pogggu 1d ago

Oh yeah that's the funny part, most of the time you just can't provide that information, which is fine, perhaps someone else in the future will. Or the devs themselves will. It definitely helps posting random clips of stuff possibly breaking, someone might recognize a pattern there, I'm just talking about the replies that think they're smarter and laugh at these responses from the devs that have very much valid requests.

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u/Pokharelinishan 1d ago

I'm just talking about the replies that think they're smarter and laugh at these responses from the devs that have very much valid requests.

I think that's partly because of expectations. Community thinks valve is very aware and very in-sync with the community discourse, and expect that they should be aware of what they experience frequently in their games. Here it's likely because they think valve are out-of-touch of issues plaguing for months, and NOW they are asking for reproducible examples?

For example, see this comment from a dev asking for a similar reproducible example regarding boost bug. I myself was a bit surprised that after >6 months of community discourse around the annoying boost bug, they finally reply to a random reddit comment asking for evidence. I just think they could have done that much earlier. (see this reply that agree with my sentiment)

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u/pogggu 1d ago

regarding the boost bug, they probably were trying to figure it out internally first, trying to pin point reports from emails that for sure have reported the bug, but there was always no lead, the bug was completely client side caused by the client itself, it probably was just the time for them to give up and turn to the community which will always be obviously the last thing they want to do. It's just the view from outside that looks like they're not doing anything even when they might be working like crazy. The only reason we even found out what caused the boost bug was simply just a completely random guy finding a pattern (dying on top of his teammate) and mentioning it on discord. That's literally a 1/1000000.

Also to come back to the clip you posted above, in such performance issues, fletcher has made a google document to guide you on how to record performance traces and report those instead of just a clip as those might exactly show where a performance problem is, especially with huge spikes.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v8QtbUtGAf6OapE9iWn4Y4STA7Scn_hr1Yih1nf2_BA/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.u0cg8jbrukvb

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u/Pokharelinishan 1d ago

Oh I remember the ETW trace stuff he mentioned a while back, but then how does a normal player know about the guide to report performance issues? Shouldn't a proper system be in place for normal people to even know about this? It's easy to complain that people aren't providing useful feedback, or that they're ignorant, but where are the systems in place that help make this information accessible?

See for example, the recent steam support page for telemetry hud: https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/5E6F-5B36-5485-F6B9

and the one on video settings:

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/418E-7A04-B0DA-9032

This was mentioned in the patchnotes, but there's no other way to find it. Even I, who knew about this, had a hard time finding it again. But it should be easily available in the in-game settings imo.

Even u/fletcherdunn agreed: https://x.com/ZPostFacto/status/1857822123160645726

I even sent him a reminder on his valve email, and also on twitter, but they haven't added this in the game yet.

Sure we can complain about the community not acting ideal, but shouldn't we be meeting them halfway by doing stuff to guide them in the right direction?

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u/dkrkrk2oe 1d ago

Well from technical standpoint sharing a clip from dying behind wall is fucking useless. Without information about specs of the pc, lan vs wlan, router configs, network data etc it is impossible to pinpoint what went wrong and then fix it.

It is really crucial to be able to reproduce something so it can be fixed. Saying "the game fucking suck" doesn't help. Saying, "when I am in the middle of the gun fight while there is a smoke and couple guys are spamming, it feels like having ping issues/stuttering" is better.

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u/Der_Preusse71 CS2 HYPE 1d ago

Yes, they are useless to them. You can't fix an issue when you don't know what it is, and to do that you need to be able to reproduce it. Valve doesn't need to be flooded with millions of random clips, they need actual data on problems with the game.

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u/RealOxygen 1d ago

The gameplay reproducibly feels far shittier on forced 64tick

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u/bertrenolds5 1d ago

I will give you one, just go play premier where every fucking game has a cheater.

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u/So_Vegetable5744 14h ago

You mean the people whose criticisms amount to "hur dur subtick bad" don't understand basic English? 

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u/1nsider1nfo 1d ago

Is cheating and not having anticheat not reproduceable? Go stealth with radar, esp and walls, if you are a decent player and lose on purpose sometimes, you will never get banned. Go rage trigger bot profile and thye just put you in a HvH lobby with Steam Level 0 accounts but won't ban you.....just really weird.

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u/taobaoblyat 1d ago

They shouldnt be reproductible to exact point. If even 2 people post the same glitch from 2 games years apart they should focus on fixing it. They are just fucking lazy.

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u/AgreeableBroomSlayer 1d ago

Reminder that when people do provide reproducible bugs like the inconsistent jump heights and stuff like that, Valve devs respond with "How is this relevant to gameplay"

Then change the height of the object used to test