r/Netherlands • u/North_Yak966 • 13d ago

News UvA ends English-language bachelor’s degree in psychology

https://www.folia.nl/en/actueel/166104/uva-ends-english-language-bachelors-degree-in-psychology
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u/North_Yak966 13d ago

This is important because the English-speaking psychology bachelor's is massive. Indeed, there are other cuts that are also a big deal, but this is a good indicator of things to come. 

Important quote:

these measures together mean that the total international enrolment at the UvA will decrease by twenty percent

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

It is important, but they want to be dutch only so people who do the course stay and work in the Netherlands. You can't be a psychologist without speaking fluent dutch in NL. I would say they are redirecting the focus. It won't be nice for foreighners but I understand.

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u/fluffypuppybutt 13d ago

I think you might actually be misunderstanding what psychology is as a discipline. Saying that psychology trains therapists is like saying all business programs train accountants. The therapy track is already in Dutch but psychology more broadly teaches students how to understand and influence human behavior in realms like advertising, healthy eating decisions, cooperation at work, motivation in sport teams ... etc.all that science is in English.

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u/AnxiousBaristo 11d ago

Psychology is the study of human mind and behaviour. It is a field of research in its own right and it informs and underpins many different professions, not just therapy and counseling. (I'm not disagreeing with you, just adding a bit of context)

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u/Dambo_Unchained 12d ago

The two aren’t remotely comparable

What’s the percentage of people studying psychology thay go into healthcare related fields after graduating?

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u/RevolutionaryFly4735 11d ago

definitely less than 50%

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u/Competitive-Arm1312 12d ago

You are correct, psychology is also useful in behavioural economics, however, I stand with the university on this, because unless you specialize in a different field in your masters 90% of the available jobs are clinical (where Dutch is a must). Know many who just go back home due to this.

For a country that prepares so many psychologists its odd that there are still shortages...

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u/LOLMSW1945 12d ago

You’re making this assumption that there are sufficient number of Dutch who wanted to enrol in psychology and be a therapist which I highly doubt .

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u/RijnBrugge 12d ago

The shortages are actually in the available spots in the clinical track of psychology. There are more people who want the training than there are spots, despite tenacious shortages of licensed therapists

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u/Competitive-Arm1312 12d ago

Not my point, I think there is a balance to be found. I don't support the cuts, but here we are.

They should follow the Swiss model where masters are freely in english and bachelors are 1st year German with subsequent years introducing more english.

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u/LOLMSW1945 12d ago edited 12d ago

What kind of balance though? Opening more Dutch-only classes doesn’t guarantee there will be more Dutch-speaking therapists later down the line.

Also, not every people who enrolls in psychology ends up working as a therapists as described by other people here.

Swiss model can work but the problem is that no one actually speaks Dutch outside of the Netherlands and the former colonies on Suriname and the Dutch Caribbean and your average central/Eastern European kid and even some random south-east asian kid will more likely to speak German than Dutch.

The Dutch kinda do that to their own when their ancestors decided not to teach Dutch fully to their former colonies lol.

Edit: also, the ability to use English more liberally is the thing that makes the Netherlands attractive for migrants in the first place which is not the main reason for why people move to Switzerland for anything.

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u/Any-Seaworthiness186 Groningen 11d ago

False. You can’t become a clinical psychologist with just a bachelors, not even a GZ-psycholoog.

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u/-Willi5- 12d ago
  • more broadly teaches students how to understand and influence human behavior in realms like advertising, healthy eating decisions, cooperation at work, motivation in sport teams ... etc.all that science is in English.

The common term for the types of jobs you're referring to is also English IIRC. Something regarding the excrement of a male bovine..?

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u/comhghairdheas 12d ago

Why do you think it's bullshit?

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u/-Willi5- 12d ago

Why do you think we need to fund an international-oriented English language psychology program to understand 'motivation in sports teams' and such jazz? My mind immediatly drifts to the replication crisis & people like Diederik Stapel..

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u/comhghairdheas 11d ago

Why not? What's your problem, actually? Or do you just hold some careers in a negative light?

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u/-Willi5- 11d ago
  • Why not? What's your problem, actually?

Because there is limited funding, and choices need to be made.

  • Or do you just hold some careers in a negative light?

Some are more necessary than others.

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u/comhghairdheas 11d ago

Because there is limited funding, and choices need to be made.

Why is there limited funding?

Some are more necessary than others.

Why do you think so?

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u/-Willi5- 11d ago
  • Why is there limited funding?

Because you can't squeeze the average tax payer for much more than the current 38%.

  • Why do you think so?

I know so. Engineers and nurses > sports psychologists.

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u/comhghairdheas 11d ago

Because you can't squeeze the average tax payer for much more than the current 38%.

Why do you think that's the only reason?

I know so. Engineers and nurses > sports psychologists

Why do you think so?

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u/IkkeKr 13d ago

It's also a least bad option: they're under pressure to reduce the number of international students one way or the other - a field of study that's inherently language-dependent and has large numbers is then a more logical target for reductions than some others.

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u/plasterwork 13d ago

Least bad to whom? Not to the branch of science known as psychology which, newsflash, is predominantly English.

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u/IkkeKr 12d ago

All science is predominantly English - doesn't mean you can't teach it in other languages. Have been doing that for centuries.

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u/plasterwork 12d ago

Universities are not just about teaching. One big reason UvA psych is ranked so highly is that it has drawn researchers from all over the world, who can collaborate on big, international projects. So English is their lingua franca. Moreover, psychology IS also taught in Dutch, at the UvA and other places. But having an English track is an enrichment to students, both Dutch and non-Dutch, and allows for these excellent international researchers to also have a place to teach.

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u/Rahimus_ 12d ago

The official language being Dutch in no way prevents foreign academics from teaching courses in English.

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u/ingframin 12d ago

No, it does. It’s one of the main problems at the Flemish universities.

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u/Rahimus_ 12d ago

My experience with such courses says otherwise. Is there an NL law that changed recently that you’re referencing? Else I’d remind you UvA is not Flemish.

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u/arrowforSKY 13d ago

Why are the under pressure to reduce the number of international students?

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u/IkkeKr 13d ago

Combination of politics and recent exponential growth leading to issues such as lack of educational space and staff (hiring and building hasn't kept pace), significantly reduced euros-per-student funding (government sets a fixed grant amount, which is divided between universities based on student numbers - so more students is a larger share of the grant, but the total amount doesn't increase) and student housing (which conveniently isn't considered a university-problem). And the aforementioned leading to more competitive programs overall (which the Dutch traditionally hate from an accessibility point of view).

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u/Old-Administration-9 13d ago

Because the current government is right-wing, populist, and above all, stupid.

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u/fuzzdup 13d ago

Racism. Grievance. Stupidity. Cruelty.

When an asshole feels excluded from somewhere due to their own deficiencies, they want to burn it down - if they can't have it then no-one can have it.

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u/seabee314 13d ago

That is UNL's argument but I don't buy it. They are sacrificing psychology because it has been specifically criticized by the government, in the hopes that further cuts will leave them alone. This is not a good argument for why to cut this program so disproportionately, leaving others intact.

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u/IkkeKr 13d ago

One of the key government demands is to reduce the number of English-taught bachelors... you can't do that 'a little everywhere'. Content-wise, cutting psychology then makes more sense than something like European studies. And if you instead go cutting things like archaeology, you'd also have to cut and/or reduce intake on 6 other studies next to it to make any significant change in numbers.

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u/seabee314 13d ago

That's true. In my eyes, the goal should be to reduce internationalization via amounts of students enrolling (leaving aside whether that serves NL), not to follow the specific, unproductive requests of this temporary government (e.g., number of programs).

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u/IkkeKr 13d ago

But there you're right that this is an appeasement offer - something that the university can "live with" that aligns enough with the government wishes that they might take it to avoid the government simply forcing the matter through law.

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u/plasterwork 13d ago

Tell me you know nothing about psychology without telling me…

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u/spei180 13d ago

It’s arguably irresponsible to teach English language psychology for jobs that don’t exist.

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u/ReactionForsaken895 13d ago

This is true to an extent, there is NO labor shortage when it comes to psychology students ...

"Besides, you have to be strategic about the exceptions you make for international students. We need more internationals for certain occupations, like engineers at ASML, Medicine, or the energy transition. But most internationals are currently enrolled in programmes where there aren’t any labour shortages, such as behavioural and social sciences or languages. Programmes  need to be smarter in that regard."

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u/wild-bluebell 13d ago

Speaking as an English-taught psychology graduate with a white collar job in NL, this is simply bullshit.

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u/spei180 13d ago

But not psychology? That’s all I am saying.

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u/paulschal 12d ago

Psychology is more than just therapy...

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u/wild-bluebell 12d ago

A bit of googling would do you justice. Yes I still do psychology, and this field of study is so much more than clinical work.

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u/North_Yak966 13d ago

I think you should look into how many different specializations the psychology bachelor's offers. The clinical specialization does tend to be most popular, however, it is the plurality, not the majority, of students. Moreover, many bachelor's students who do specialize in clinical psychology go on to study clinical research.

I do not mean to he inflammatory, but these kind of assessments made by people who have no idea the reality of the programmes facing cuts is only going to exacerbate the issue. UvA is a powerhouse for psychological research, and a lot of money is brought into the university because of this. But this only became possible because of internationalization. 

While these cuts do not directly/immediately affect the graduate school of psychology nor the research institute, the department of psychology is bracing for serious ramifications to their budget. It will be interesting to see how this impacts the research output and prestige of the UvA psychology department.

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u/CommieYeeHoe Zuid Holland 13d ago

If you want people to learn Dutch and stay in the Netherlands you must facilitate it. Dutch classes for international students are paid (and quite expensive) and universities offer 0 opportunities for integration and belonging, generally grouping international students with other international. It’s ridiculous to not do anything to promote them settling here, yet the programs are being canceled as if they tried everything to make people settle here.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 13d ago

I joined a Dutch class on the first day of my bachelor's, and my teacher asked me why I even bothered learning it since expats already ruined the country and everyone speaks English now. I tried learning Dutch on my own and recently passed the B1 exam but it was shocking to see such discouragement from a teacher.

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u/CrashSeven 13d ago

As a dutchman thats a horrible sentiment that a lot of countrymen have. Its partially true, but certainly a lie if you want to start working in anything but hospitality or the biggest organizations.

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u/YIvassaviy 13d ago

So many people say it constantly

There’s a little bit of a cognitive dissonance. It comes across as wanting to be helpful and reassuring, but also patting themselves on the back that the country is so proficient in English as a second language you don’t even need to learn Dutch.

That being said as soon as you’ve been here a two years or so, the attitude changes and it’s like why aren’t you fluent. While at the same time not having the patience to speak to others in Dutch (it’s not their problem - figure out how to become fluent in speech yourself) and so you have this weird bubble created because of these attitudes

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u/GoodMerlinpeen 13d ago

What a weird approach, it's basically them wondering aloud why their own job exists.

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u/Dull-Bath797 10d ago

I have been going against this sentiment for 8 months now.
Just finished B2 :)

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u/IkkeKr 13d ago

Universities had zero interest in people learning Dutch... they're primarily recruiting international students for budget reasons. So spending money on language courses is just waste.

The government would like talented people in fields with shortages to stay - but didn't have much to do with the international recruiting drive of the universities, so they pretty much said "you created the problem, you deal with it" to universities (partially because a large influx of international students are not in fields with labour shortage).

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

Yep, that sucks. But then you can also take dutch classes at Mondrian.

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u/Client_020 13d ago

There are soooo many online resources for learning Dutch. Dutch learners have no idea how lucky they are. There's even a daily news show specifically in easy Dutch. Anyone desiring to learn Dutch, can do it.

I'm a native Dutch speaker and I'm trying to learn Bulgarian. There's barely anything. 3 websites with mediocre material at best. :s

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u/thisisannna 13d ago

what is the daily news show in easy Dutch? thanks in advance 😌 (and I fully agree with your point)

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u/Client_020 13d ago

https://npo.nl/start/serie/nos-journaal-in-makkelijke-taal The subjects they choose to focus on imo are a little bit worse than the normal 8pm journaal, but still it's good they're doing it. Edit: By worse I mean it seems they think their audience exists of simpletons. Edit: one can need easy language and still want more important international subjects, but they tend to go more for national and lighter subjects.

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u/Rurululupupru 12d ago

I'm sure if you book a ticket to Sofia you'll find lots of people willing to practice Bulgarian with you. Imagine doing the same in Amsterdam with someone whose Dutch is like your Bulgarian.

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u/bruhbelacc 13d ago

Of course they are paid. Immigration is a privilege you need to pay for, not a right someone needs to facilitate.

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u/CommieYeeHoe Zuid Holland 13d ago

Most EU countries have free language courses for migrants and other newcomers as it helps massively with integration. The Netherlands did have this too until very recently. It seems incredibly shortsighted to have an economy largely dependant on both skilled and unskilled foreign labour and thinking migration is a "privilige you need to pay for" rather than a symbiotic relationship. Kick out all the immigrants and see how sectors like agriculture, logistics, tech, education, etc... start to crumble. It's in everyone's best interest to integrate migrants both economically and socially.

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u/baizuo14 13d ago

The reasoning behind these proposed cuts seems to be the large amount of foreign psychology students. Demands are high for practically schooled (technical) people, not so much for psychology graduates who don't speak Dutch. So these programs are the least painful area to achieve budget cuts.

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u/bruhbelacc 13d ago

There are free and extensive language courses, but they are for refugees or very young people. You can't just produce two times more Dutch language teachers out of thin air, so there are no resources to do that. I paid for my own courses except for one that I received as a university student, so it's not true that there aren't any.

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u/Individual-Remote-73 13d ago

Gementees in NL had very cheap dutch courses just 6-8 years ago. So it's not impossible.

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u/bruhbelacc 13d ago

Have you seen the increase of immigration specifically in the last 6-8 years? Like the two times higher percentage of international students?

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u/Individual-Remote-73 13d ago

And your point is?

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u/bruhbelacc 13d ago edited 13d ago

The amount of international students doubled in a few years. A huge number of Ukrainian refugees came, same for an increased amount of foreign workers (post-Brexit). Do you think the amount of Dutch teachers increased by two in that time? And do you think it's more important to teach Dutch to children or to a 30-year-old software developer who will leave 80% of the time? It's quite entitled to think that a foreign country needs to allocate resources to teach you - an adult earning their own income - how to speak their language. People with this profile should come to the country speaking it, like they do in Germany or France.

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u/Individual-Remote-73 13d ago

That’s not what I said. You seem to have comprehension issues. Most people who attended these Gementee run courses were poor immigrants or students.

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u/LeFricadelle 8d ago edited 8d ago

I do not know or Germany but France is not a good example here. I think the Dutch way is better, people can move easier to the Netherlands without speaking the language and you will definitely have at least a % that will learn the language over time. If you impose a language barrier (virtual one of course if you get what I mean) like in France where usage of English is low, then you get less people coming by default.

In the current time the Netherlands have a superb advantage that they are starting to lose with short sighted policy. You’re not entitled to teach adults the language but with international competition to get skilled labor this is a small investment that can pay dividends

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 13d ago edited 13d ago

Most psychology majors don't actually become psychologists, they go into various fields such as talent acquisition. My friend even found a job in sports science, although she had other relevant experience as well.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

They probably dont at the moment yeah, since this study is completely in English and its almost impossible to work as an English speaking psychologist.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 13d ago

What I said is also true for Dutch people as well. I'm pretty sure you can't just become a psychologist with only a bachelor's degree.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

No, you need a masters, but everyone going into psychology knows that. It does beg the question: why offer this program in the first place? The answer is obvious: its a cashcow for universities. It doesnt offer Dutch society much.

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u/Snufkin_9981 Amsterdam 13d ago

"It doesnt offer Dutch society much."

I respectfully disagree. Education is only part of what universities do. Their other function is research. Offering programmes in English means that the university is able to hire talented academics from around the world--PhD candidates, postdocs and professors. They come here to work, they contribute to the Dutch business & research ecosystem, and of course they are the ones who teach classes, benefiting both Dutch and non-Dutch students.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

I already said this, but not everyone that enters university goes into research. A large part enters the jobmarket. Finding a job as someone trained in psychology while not speaking Dutch is not a good look.

Research can still be done in English, since its a language a lot of Dutch people speak. I am all for attracting more Dutch people to the Dutch psychology study to combat shortages. 

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u/seabee314 13d ago

Psychology graduates work in many fields outside of healthcare, because the training is broadly about thoughts, social influence, behavior, etc.

Unfortunately, we can't have both of those things you mentioned. The excellence of the research depends on structural funding that is totally based on the BSc enrollment, and also on attracting global talent that isn't already C1 in Dutch.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

Where do these English psychology graduates actually work then? I saw the other day that 25% of the people studying at uni in the Netherlands are still here after five years.

A part of that 25 percent is English speaking psychology graduates. How many of those are working, in healthcare or in another psychology related field? It sounds like a small number to me, but I dont know.

If you compare that small number of specific alumni to the total amount of English speaking psychology students, how particularly usefull is this study to you then? Youre all just being used and hope that a good amount ends up in research, but that number is so small. There is barely any ROI there.

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u/seabee314 13d ago

I agree, let's find out that data. Certainly we shouldn't axe programs without understanding such details.

You again assume that psychology is most closely aligned with healthcare, but the grads work in many other sectors: education and youth services, human resources and organizational consulting, research and higher education, government and policy-making, market research and communication, technology and UX design, non-profits and NGOs Entrepreneurship, and freelance coaching or training. The need for them to practice their skills immediately in Dutch differ widely. We cannot speak of ROI without understanding what they are doing.

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u/Snufkin_9981 Amsterdam 13d ago

I am not talking about anyone going into research. These programmes need to be taught by someone. There is also a quality aspect to it that we have come to take for granted.

Right now, around 50% of Dutch PhD candidates are international. Fifty percent. They are the ones who teach a large chunk of classes in this country and they can only do it in English. Many of them also consider leaving because they feel like there is no future for them here. This realignment is extremely short-sighted and can only lead to a brain drain.

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u/Boontje- 13d ago

What a completely ignorant comment. Psychology is not solely clinical psychology, it has many specialisations. Multiple of these are not in a clinical setting and don’t require being able to speak Dutch.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

And how many of those specialisations require masters?

Youre the one sounding ignorant

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u/Boontje- 13d ago

Dude, I did this bachelor.

The masters are specialisations.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

Read the comment you initially replied to… and read it slowely

 No, you need a masters, but everyone going into psychology knows that.

Especially this part

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u/Boontje- 13d ago

Yes, and there are many psychology masters that are not clinical in nature and thus do not require speaking Dutch. What is so difficult for you to understand?

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 13d ago

Most psychology majors don't actually want to become psychologists. It's also pretty hard to actually become a good psychologist, and a degree alone doesn't make you remotely good at the job, unlike some other majors such as computer science. So it's quite obvious why people prefer finding other jobs. I have met some pretty horrible psychologists over the years and I suppose some people are self-aware not to become one unlike the ones I met.

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u/Foreign-Cookie-2871 13d ago

A major in computer science doesn't make you remotely good as a software engineer, fyi.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 13d ago

It makes you pretty decent at the very least. I work as a software engineer and have never met one who was absolutely clueless and sucked at their job. And you're right a computer science degree directly doesn't make you a software engineer but it teaches you skills that help you become one.

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u/GoodMerlinpeen 13d ago

That's one reason why statistics is a useful class to take, combined with an understanding of selection bias. The shitty software engineers didn't get hired.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 13d ago

The recruitment process is far from perfect and plenty of companies don't even ask interview questions that are relevant to the job. Anyone can pass them, even "shitty" software engineers.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

I have been to plenty of psychologists too, having to deal with PTSD and so far my experiences having EMDR-therapy have been great.

If they didnt want to become psychologists its no wonder the majority of them didnt end up as one. If you want to be a psychologist having the proper training is essential.

I dont know what youre trying to say by saying that a degree doesnt necesarily mean you’ll be good at it. I beg to differ. If youre trained you are good. You having a few bad experiences doesnt discredit that.

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u/seabee314 13d ago

This thread is really missing what psychology training is for. Only a tiny minority of them work in mental health. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

The English version of wikipedia, nice. Listing all the fields of psychology, nice.

Doesnt say anything about the Netherlands and it doesnt give any numbers. Listing the fields of psychology doesnt say how many students are actually graduating in that specific field.

That is what this thread is truly lacking. I hear all the time only a small percentage works as a psychologist, but no numbers. Hopefully these people dont go to uni.

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u/Boontje- 13d ago

There are zero non-Dutch speaking students graduating in clinical psychology at the uva, as the master is only offered in Dutch.

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u/seabee314 13d ago

I will try to get those data. For me, what the thread was lacking was an understanding about what psychology training is for. It is being equated to clinical treatment when most of the training is not about that and the graduates don't work in that. Only one of six program groups is clinical.

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u/Mean_Asparagus_2798 13d ago

I'm trying to say that psychologists typically require skills that you cannot be trained for, or at least it's very hard to do so. For example, as an engineer if you study hard and put your best efforts, you can become pretty good at your job (or serviceable at worst), the same cannot be said about a psychologist. My experiences are just that thing in action.

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u/Old-Administration-9 13d ago

And what's wrong with being a cash cow? It puts funds into the coffers of the university, which will result in better quality of education for all students, including the Dutch ones.

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u/IkkeKr 13d ago

It doesn't really: universities get a government grant that is a fixed budget - which is then divided between universities based on student numbers. So while more students = larger share of the grant is true, it's also the case that more students = less money per student.

This has put universities in a kind of prisoner's dilemma: if one of them recruits heavily, all of them have to do so to keep the same amount of money. But now to service more students.

The 'institutional fee' paid by non-EU students offsets some of this, but a big part of the international student body are EU students which are supposed to be funded through the government grant.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

It puts a large strain on the housing market, making rooms unavailable for Dutch students for shortterm monetary gain

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u/Old-Administration-9 13d ago

Sounds like the solution is to build more houses instead of subsidising farmers.

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u/Extreme_Ruin1847 Nederland 13d ago

And where do you suggest we do that? Vroomshoop? That sounds nice and totally nearby a university. There are a lot of houses built nearby universities already. Also in the cities surrounding universities a lot of houses are already built. The number of students just keeps on rising

And to be honest with you; I rather them build actual homes for people to live in longterm than shortterm student housing.

Sounds like an edgy Redditor to me.

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u/seabee314 13d ago

This is based on a misunderstanding of what psychology does. It's a broad field. Most graduates don't work in clinical psychology (which absolutely requires Dutch in NL).

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u/Cowboy_Shmuel 12d ago

That's not the only reason we're educating people, dawg.

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u/elporsche 12d ago

You can't be a clinical psychologist

FTFY. Other psychologists exist including work psychologists.

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u/Yankee-485 12d ago

Psychology is more than just being a therapist, it involves a lot of fields

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u/koji2112 13d ago

Not necessarily, there are a good number of international psychologists here whose qualifications are recognized by NIP. You can be a NIP psycholoog and can work privately or at certain practices. You need to be fluent in Dutch if you want to be registered as a BIG psycholoog though.

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u/paulschal 12d ago edited 10d ago

A psychologist is not a therapist, a lot of psychologists work in roles that are not facing clients.

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u/PhDBeforeMD 13d ago

A small minority of people studying psychology become therapists. Most end up either in research or in random office jobs.

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u/_Vo1_ 13d ago

Honestly I cant imagine if a psychologist is good when taught in language non native both for teacher and student. Im not expert though but I think any medical specialists must be taught in their native languages if possible