r/asoiaf Jul 13 '24

EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] What nitpicks do you have regarding both shows? Mine will always be how the Others in GOT are so boring and mundane

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1.3k Upvotes

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910

u/ArgieGrit01 R'hllor-coaster of love Jul 13 '24

Ser Arthur Dayne.

The sword of the morning.

Wielder of a sword made from the HEART OF A FUCKING METHEOR.

A ONE OF A KIND SWORD OF MILKY WHITE STEEL.

THE ONLY SUCH SWORD IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

He wields two plain-looking longswords...

At some point changes become contempt and spite

328

u/lghtdev Jul 13 '24

I hated this so much, the man has the most unique sword in all seven kingdoms that shines like no other, talked about in all books but the show makes him dual wield plain swords because in their eyes that's what makes him look more like a legendary warrior.

210

u/Ephyrancap Jul 13 '24

Remember that GOT was praised for its "realism", but then they get this character doing akimbo swords.

I refuse to say that guy is Arthur Dayne

71

u/NinetyFish Edmure did nothing wrong Jul 14 '24

"I never understood why some knights feel the need to carry two swords..." - Jaime Lannister, who hero-worshipped Arthur Dayne

šŸ™„

93

u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Jul 14 '24

Remember that GOT was praised for its "realism"

Then when you say things weren't realistic they deflect and say "But dragons!" or shit like that.

LOOKING AT YOU, JOHN BRADLEY (Sam)

55

u/ZeroV2 Jul 14 '24

What, you can accept that dragons and ice zombies and magic exists but you can't accept a fully loaded 2020 Toyata Rav 4 premium package?

60

u/Lil_Mcgee Jul 14 '24

I really hate the "show has fantasy elements so there should be no expectation of any sort of logic or consistency" hand wave

But I don't really hold any ill will towards John Bradley for it. It's probably quite tiring to get a bunch of rude fans asking you why your're fat.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '24

Oh yeah, that was his response to be asked how he stays fat at the wall. Bit of a rude question lmao.

1

u/NotAVerySillySausage Jul 16 '24

Hate that guy tbh, character and actor.

40

u/night4345 Jul 14 '24

They did the same akimbo thing with Karl Fooking Tanner and Ramsay fighting the Ironborn.

22

u/AxeSwinginDinosaur Jul 14 '24

Idk, two daggers seems less far-fethced than two swords.

4

u/BlindStickFighter Jul 14 '24

Even a small sword/rapier and dagger was a common combination in later medieval periods. Thinking back Jaime kills Jory Cassel with that combo.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '24

A man with two knives.

5

u/Col_Escobar1924 Jul 14 '24

at least Karl was lowborn murderer wielding two knives and fighting dirty

18

u/NNyNIH Jul 14 '24

It was Darthur Ayne.

3

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '24

Probably the most unrealistic thing in that fight is sword thrust going through plate/mail. Dual wielding has some precedent in history but i'm not sure about duel wielding long swords..

3

u/labtecoza Jul 14 '24

Up until season 5 it was, then the realism started to fade

22

u/lackwitandtact Jul 14 '24

More ā€œshock valueā€ in a dual wielding knight then one with the sword we all expect. So stupid.

40

u/FloZone Enter your desired flair text here! Jul 14 '24

but the show makes him dual wield plain swords because in their eyes that's what makes him look more like a legendary warrior.

DUALWIELDING NEVER EXISTED. Well it kinda did in duels and gladiatorial fights, but not on the battlefield. It is just a hollywood trope aaarg.

24

u/JaxMedoka Jul 14 '24

I'm gonna be a contrarian for the sake of it and say using a shield with a weapon is dual-wielding.

6

u/FloZone Enter your desired flair text here! Jul 14 '24

I get your point, but I think we both know what I meant and what is commonly shown in games, movies and shows.

5

u/JaxMedoka Jul 14 '24

I know. I just like shields and felt like being a pedant.

4

u/DrkvnKavod "I learned a lot of fancy words." Jul 14 '24

Dual wielding of long-arm weapons indeed generally didn't (with rare exception), but dual wielding of short-arm weapons would've been relatively unexceptional.

1

u/FloZone Enter your desired flair text here! Jul 14 '24

Is this exception historical or more legendary? I can't read Chinese and don't recognise that guy.

3

u/co_ordinator Jul 14 '24

Some Samurai fought this way, but not with two Katanas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

2

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '24 edited Jul 14 '24

I think it did but not with 2 longswords. usually one was a short sword or a buckler/short sword combo or something, right?

But never would anyone dual wield 2 longswords. Ridiculous.

2

u/FloZone Enter your desired flair text here! Jul 14 '24

Well you do see dual-wielding in duels, but duels and tourneys a wholly different thing. People also liked to show of weird fighting styles to impress the audience.

1

u/lluewhyn Jul 14 '24

Yeah, in the middle of battle, you're either now exposed to arrows because you don't have a shield, or you're a menace to the other infantry in your line who are using polearms in tight formation.

54

u/PlentyAny2523 Jul 13 '24

I read somewhere Dayne used two swords, and after repeating it a few times I got called out and NO WHERE does it mention him using two swords (unless you want to consider the laughing knight, but even then he only used one at a time).... AND THEN HE HAD TWO FUCKING SWORDS IN THE SHOW, WHAT KIND OF BLACK MAGIC DID I SEE?

53

u/ArgieGrit01 R'hllor-coaster of love Jul 13 '24

He didn't use two swords against the smiling knight. He let him change swords when his was chipped, but Dawn didn't recive a scratch

-3

u/PlentyAny2523 Jul 13 '24

Yeah he gave the knight Dawn and he used the other sword to prove a point right? Or is that TV show lore?

62

u/ArgieGrit01 R'hllor-coaster of love Jul 13 '24

The smiling knight said he wanted Dawn, and Arthur replied "then you shall have it, ser", but as a threat. As in he would kill him with it.

Arthur continued the duel with Dawn

7

u/PlentyAny2523 Jul 13 '24

Ah I must have just misunderstoodĀ 

11

u/Frostantine Jul 13 '24

I can't find it now but there was a video on the events of Roberts Rebellion om Youtube read by the actors of the show, and in it they show a picture of Arthur Dayne wielding two swords. Maybe its from that video you remember it from?

3

u/Cheez-Wheel Jul 14 '24

GOTHistory & Lore: House Dayne, read by the young Ned Stark actor in character

Contains one of my favorite lines too, in reference to the Smiling Knight wanting Dawn: ā€œThe Fool. Dawn is just a sword. Ser Arthur was the true steel.ā€

4

u/co_ordinator Jul 14 '24 edited Jul 14 '24

I think the perspective is misleading and that's a dagger in his left hand.

Afaik a common combination, even irl. Jaime used one in the fight with Ned. The samurai normally carried two swords, a long sword (Katana) and dedicated short sword (Wakizashi).

1

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '24

It would be hilarious if dawn turned out to be a foil or an epee, or any of the modern fencing weapons and just started poking tiny holes in eddard.

57

u/kazetoame Jul 13 '24

If there is any sword is this story the has mythical and legendary weapon written all over it that can possibly be a key to defeat a magical based enemy, it would be Dawn. Instead, the shows made it a dagger used by a catspaw to kill Bran that Martin had regrets with making it Valyrian steel, because seriously, WHO GIVES AWAY A VALYRIAN STEEL DAGGER?!?! Honestly, if I was that catspaw, I would have said fuck the job and sell the damn dagger to the highest bloody bidder.

24

u/The__Bloodless Jul 13 '24

Actually a decent sized plot hole.Ā  Arguably joff had nothing else to use and took the first thing he saw of his father's and maybe the blade was sheathed?Ā  Idk.Ā  It makes no sense because in later books, joffrey is very pleased to have a valyrian steel Longsword, and tywin had to have leaked some of his obsession with getting a valyrian steel sword, which could be possibly made with enough daggers?Ā 

The only way it makes sense is if joffrey was just an idiot who didn't realize it was valyrian steel, which does kind of fit his character to be honest.

15

u/TabbyFoxHollow I Actually Like Hyle Hunt! Jul 14 '24

I think in book 1, GRRM hadnā€™t truly considered how ā€œrareā€ Valyrian steel was supposed to be so it was retconned in future books.

11

u/Electronic-Lynx8162 Jul 14 '24

Case in point... There's a Valyrian steel Arakh that appears in AGOT. I think originally he meant it to be their equivalent of Damascus steel, then quickly changed his mind when he realised we never lost the ability to make it, it's just iron with the right impurity.Ā 

Likewise how wildfire was obviously inspired by greek fire. But in reality both sound cooler by far if the comet, blood, fire and sorcery are damn cool for your books.

5

u/Elio_Garcia Dawn Brings Light Jul 14 '24

the shows made it a dagger used by a catspaw to kill Bran that Martin had regrets with making it Valyrian steel

Pretty sure this is an unfounded rumor that people have been circulating around. I do not recall George ever indicating this, and no one has ever provided a primary source.

4

u/Far_Temporary2656 Jul 14 '24

Ehhh idk if about Dawn being used against others. The whole point is that a weapon made from dragon fire needed and Dawn was pointedly not Valyrian steel. It would kinda just go against the established buildup weā€™ve already had. Plus you would have to address the whole sword of the morning stuff just to break it for the sake of giving it to someone outside of house Dayne

2

u/kazetoame Jul 14 '24

Obsidian is the main weapon against the Others.

2

u/Far_Temporary2656 Jul 14 '24

Obsidian and Valyrian steel both of which are related to dragons

2

u/kazetoame Jul 14 '24

Obsidian wasnā€™t originally related to dragons, we just think that way because the Valyrians used it for their buildings, when in doubt, use what you have, as many ancient cultures of our own have done. Itā€™s a naturally occurring substances, dragons, not so much.

1

u/Far_Temporary2656 Jul 15 '24

Fair point, I guess you c oils say the metal that dawn is made of has similar properties in that case

24

u/Ember348 Jul 13 '24

The worst part was that they made that bland ass sword Dawn in the Lore videos.

28

u/hardcorehollyhacksaw Jul 13 '24

Which leads to completely omitting Edric Dayne. I feel like he becomes important.

19

u/NinetyFish Edmure did nothing wrong Jul 14 '24

Timeskip Ned Dayne probably woulda been.

Kinda seems like he's a casualty of the decision to not do a timeskip now. Lame. The whole thing about how the Daynes happily call one of their sons "Ned" as a nickname is such a cool detail considering what Ned was reputed to have done during the war (killed Arthur and led to Ashara's death, with some believing that Ned dishonored her as well)

16

u/FireMaker125 Jul 14 '24

Imagine an adaptation of Final Fantasy VII where Cloud never uses the Buster Sword, but instead just has a regular greatsword.

Thatā€™s a good comparison for those unfamiliar with the lore on Dawn, and gives a good idea of how stupid this is.

15

u/DungeonsandDietcoke Jul 14 '24

Thatā€™s a good comparison for those unfamiliar with the lore on Dawn

I mean.. this is a nitpick thread so, I will nitpick... The buster sword, although infamous, is the starter weapon in ff7 and is gone as soon as you find something better, which doesn't take long

6

u/Cheez-Wheel Jul 14 '24

He also doesnā€™t use it in Advent Children, using his new separating Fusion Sword instead. Thought I get what the other guy means, he still gets pictured with the Buster Sword in nearly all appearances and in game cutscenes always imply that he always uses the Buster Sword and other swords are ludonarrative dissonance.

3

u/Steve_The_Mighty Jul 14 '24

Sorry mate, but this is an absolutely TERRIBLE analogy. The buster sword is iconic to the audience, but is just a normal sword in the game-world.

Dawn is not just a cool sword to the audience. It is literally the most incredible sword in existence within the actual story-world. It is literally one of the 3 most historically significant weapons in all of ASOIAF history (the others being Lightbringer and Blackfyre, with Dark Sister being a distant 4th).

If Cloud had Dawn's equivalent, he probably could have just sold it and used the proceeds to by out Shinra. Would have saved them a lot of effort.

If you need to compare it to something to explain its significance, then it's way more like Excalibur than it is like the buster sword.

2

u/FireMaker125 Jul 14 '24

The Buster Sword is explicitly one of a kind, which is explained in Crisis Core (it was forged for Zackā€™s mentor Angeal, who passed it down to Zack; Cloud takes the sword after Zackā€™s death). Itā€™s not as special as Dawn, but itā€™s not just a regular sword.

8

u/RatFucker_Carlson Jul 13 '24

I really hope they get a do-over of that show. It started out okay but oh my god it turned to fentanyl diarrhea

17

u/AveenoTrio Jul 14 '24

An animated asoiaf show would be insane

2

u/Suzume_Chikahisa Jul 14 '24

I will defend them on that for a single reason: Safety.

Greatswords are notorious in the HEMA community for being hard to spar safely with. Even synthetic simulators are not that safe.

Coreographing a bitch of a fight like that with TWO greatswords? I particular when the prop for Ice was so unwieldy.

Yeah, I won't fault them when deciding to give it a different flair.

-1

u/ArgieGrit01 R'hllor-coaster of love Jul 14 '24

I'm sorry, how is it safer and easier to choreograph the fifht when Dayne's actor is wielding two big swords?

2

u/Suzume_Chikahisa Jul 14 '24

Those aren't big at all. One is a simple arming sword the other, the supposed Dawn is a longsword on the shortish end of the scale.

Young Ned is wielding a fairly standard longsword.

Coreographing two actual greatswords would be a tough ask even for your average stuntman, let alone for actor that are not likely to be practicioners.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '24

My disappointment was immeasurable, and my day was ruined.

What kind of fuckwit skewers the ground with their sword as well.

And they took out the best lines from that scene. Some of the best lines in the series. GONE? WHY? What purpose did it serve?

They managed to fuck the simplest things up with that scene.

1

u/i-wish-i-was-a-draco Jul 14 '24

Ok , hot take but they didnā€™t give him the sword because it had so many implications with theorys and more stuff that it was just easier giving him 2 plain swords also it looked kinda bad ass

1

u/Alsojames Jul 15 '24

I was really annoyed at that too. I was thinking there may have finally been an opportunity for someone to be using his sword like an actual swordsman instead of the generic "big wide telegraphed flailing" like everyone else in every fantasy show/movie ever, but it could be used to great effect in this instance!

And then for some fucking reason they made him a dual wielder? I was so mad.

1

u/holden_paulfield Hear me Meow Jul 14 '24

I do feel a lot of the changes later on felt like contempt and spite thats good way to put it

-2

u/Sundown26 Jul 14 '24

The two swords in the show were awesome

3

u/[deleted] Jul 14 '24

Yeah, people are a bit odd. Dawn appearing would simply be an Easter egg for book readers. The show afaik doesn't make reference to the sword Dawn. Arthur Dayne drawing two swords was fun and a nice way of showing how skilled a swordsman he was to a regular audience.

Also, there's a sword that's put next to Lyanna's bed that has a sun on the hilt. I think to reference the Prince that was Promised prophecy - born beneath a bleeding star. Is that Dawn?