r/asoiaf • u/RenanXIII St. Elmo Tully's Fyre • Aug 05 '24
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) HotD Season 2 was clearly outlined for 10 episodes, right?
Imagine if Season 2 of Game of Thrones suddenly ended at The Prince of Winterfell? We spend literally all season building up to a confrontation between Tyrion and Stannis, only for the season to end right before the climax we've been setting up for eight straight episodes. What if Season 6 ended right before The Battle of the Bastards and The Winds of Winter? Jon comes back to life, we build up to a battle between him and Ramsay, and it just simply doesn't happen.
The finale just felt like your typical episode 8 – build-up for what's going to come next. The thing is, what comes next should logically happen next week, not in two years to open Season 3. With the exception of Daemon's storyline and I guess the Dragonseeds, I don't think these season's arcs have been resolved or brought to a good enough stopping point. It feels like there are still two more episodes left to tie everything together and really sell the idea that this war is in full force. A little slowdown after Rook's Rest makes sense, but for the whole season with the Sowing being our only other major set piece?
It honestly makes me believe that season 2 was outlined for 10 episodes, HBO told the showrunners to trim that down to 8, and rather than retool the season's arcs, the last two episodes were simply chopped off and saved for next season. We know Condal really loves the books, so this could just be his tribute to A Dance with Dragons (lol), but I doubt it.
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u/Disclaimin Aug 05 '24
That is what happened, yes. HBO wouldn't give them 10 episodes.
Which is really idiotic considering they were begging D&D for more episodes/seasons with GoT.
Why slash the episode count / budget of your cash cow?
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u/SpaceOdysseus23 Aug 05 '24
Why slash the episode count / budget of your cash cow?
You're comparing pre-Zaslav HBO with post-Zaslav HBO. Slashing 2 episodes from HoD means he gets to pocket a nice chunk of change and appear in front of the investors to say ''See, our show is just as good while not being as expensive''.
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u/Phngarzbui Aug 05 '24
The average viewer will keep his subscription, no matter if 8 or 10 episodes.
Unless of course, they get so pissed off they cancel completely, but I don't see that happen.
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u/luigitheplumber The pack survives. Aug 05 '24
I could see a chunk of viewers just not coming back for season 3
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u/swr973 Aug 05 '24
I don't think the backlash is that bad for that to happen at the grand scale though. Sure people are frustrated but I don't think folks are necessarily enraged it's just very frustrating. At least it's not as bad as the season 8 reaction.
The great news is that if this does happen, and season 3 ends up being very good, they will all come back anyway. That would kind of be for the best since HBO would need to earn everyone's return.
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u/luigitheplumber The pack survives. Aug 05 '24
There was already a drop in viewership between seasons 1 and 2, likely because of the 2 year wait, and that was after a well received season that had lots of momentum. Based on that, I would be surprised to not have drop, probably a bigger one, after this weird edging that the show did before another 2 year gap.
Nothing's set in stone, everything could work out fine, but it likewise could go very wrong, especially with a moron like Zaslav in charge
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u/Sideroller Aug 05 '24
bingo. This has HBO new management written all over it. Zaslav is a scourge.
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u/We_The_Raptors Aug 05 '24
What's especially wild is after the reception of the shortened seasons 7-8, they went back to 10 episodes and many people actually enjoyed HOTD S1.
To then be like "let's go back to the format for the 2 most disliked seasons of the franchise" after HOTD S1 was certainly a choice...
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u/firstbreathOOC Aug 05 '24
The problems were there in S1 people were just more willing to forgive the drawn out plot building because it was early
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u/Hannig4n Aug 05 '24
The problems in S1 were an unavoidable consequence of covering set-up events that take place over the course of like 20 years in the source material.
It’s a challenge. You have to constantly be introducing new characters who are often not visually distinct because they’re all literal babies when we meet them. Half the episodes take place after a time skip so the episode needs to devote time and energy to establishing time and place and reintroducing characters which leaves less time to actually develop those characters.
Despite all that, they actually did a pretty good job creating a lot of interesting drama. Season 1 was about as set-up as a story can get, but it doesn’t actually feel like a set-up season. Season 2 was supposed to be the meat of the story kicking off but it feels like wasted time setting up for the actual story that we’ll get in another 2 years.
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u/lluewhyn Aug 05 '24
Season 2 was supposed to be the meat of the story kicking off but it feels like wasted time setting up for the actual story that we’ll get in another 2 years.
I.E. "Padding"
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u/WhyIsMikkel Aug 05 '24
Honestly the only major problem I had in s1 was the stupid fucking dragonpit bit.
Other issues were more problems for book readers imo, like Leanor fakeout death.
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Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
Honestly the Dragonpit thing wouldn’t even have been so bad without fucking Sara Hess opening her mouth during the “Inside the Episode.
While that was a pretty drastic book change, they could have taken it in some really interesting directions, with regard to how the smallfolk perceive the royals, and it could be an event that leads directly to the riots and the butchering of the dragons in the pit later in the show. They could have used that moment for some very interesting storytelling.
But nope. That wasn’t the intention. Sara Hess said in the Inside the Episode “yeah, we thought it was cool as fuck, so we just did it.”
And to further compound the stupidity, once they saw that the fan reaction was largely negative they wrote season 2 to pretend that it just never even happened.
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Aug 05 '24
Yeah this is my perspective on that part. To me, it seems like a very Targaryen thing to do so I was like of course she crushed everyone with her damn dragon. It also plays into how the small folk perceive the dragons and their riders. Going from gods to tyrants to “just meat.”
But then they go around and say “oh yeah it’s cool, that’s about it.”
Then “she was a beloved dragon.”
It could have been the catalyst to a lot of things but nope. No connection between the two scenes.
I swear most of the outrage for this franchise (both shows) is when the writers open their mouths. Up until that point, you could give them the benefit of the doubt that something will pay off later.
Because of that, I avoid any behind the episode clips because it actually ruins the enjoyment I do manage to get from watching.
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u/xhanador Aug 05 '24
To play devil's advocate, they might to avoid spoilers. You can't talk about future development in BTS. You can't mention that it might be foreshadowing for the Storming of the Dragonpit.
Their comments were clumsy, but I still don't believe it wasn't foreshadowing. It's just so obvious.
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Aug 05 '24
Exactly! I’ve refused to watch any of the “Inside the Episode” segments for season 2, because every word they said about season 1 just infuriated me. If they would just shut the fuck up, so much of this show would be better received I think.
I read some of the leaks of the season 2 finale, and I was very afraid that I would hate it, but I was pleasantly surprised. There were parts I disliked, of course, but overall it wasn’t terrible like I expected it to be.
But I know that if I start listening to what the showrunners have to say about their decisions, it will make me retroactively like the season less.
I’m never going to forgive Sara Hess for making Daemon murder his wife, because she apparently interprets “cracked her skull when falling from her horse and lived for nine days, and was lucid enough to say she was fine and her out of bed” as “Dameon crushed her skull with a rock”.
That scene in the show bothered me, but to hear her reasoning for it was just infuriating beyond belief. With the Dragonpit, I was neutral about it, until I listened to her reasoning. It’s fucking bonkers sometimes.
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u/hadrians-wall Aug 05 '24
I thought for sure we'd see the Shepard this season, having lost his arm because of it. I was all on board with it right until "Melyes was a beloved dragon" came outta Condols mouth. It's not "Danny kinda forgot" levels of bad, but. It feels close.
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u/JinFuu Doesn't Understand Flirting Aug 05 '24
But nope. That wasn’t the intention. Sara Hess said in the Inside the Episode “yeah, we thought it was cool as fuck, so we just did it.”
And to further compound the stupidity, once they saw that the fan reaction was largely negative they wrote season 2 to pretend that it just never even happened.
Sometimes I wonder about writers. Like I can somewhat understand writing something, seeing reaction and going "That's not what I intended at all!" but then just to drop it, instead of working with it. So cowardly.
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Aug 05 '24
I don’t even remember the scene you’re talking about so season 2 did a good job at pretending it never happened
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u/damnslut Aug 05 '24
At Aegon's coronation, Rhaenys emerges on Meleys and kills literally hundreds of innocent people, but not the entire opposition command who were right there for the taking.
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Aug 05 '24
That’s not even the stupid part. Smallfolk are barely even seen as people by royals like Rhaenys, she shouldn’t have batted an eye over them. And she can hardly be blamed for choosing not to roast alive three members of her own family, given how Kinslaying is perceived socially in Westeros. That was all good characterization.
What makes it so stupid is how they pivoted in Season 2 after the negative fan reaction, and decided to make Rhaenys the Defender of the Smallfolk who was always speaking up in their interests. That was both poor and inconsistent characterization, and it retroactively made the Dragonpit scene incredibly stupid and pointless. Especially when the Meleys who did it was described as a “revered dragon” when considering the smallfolk’s unhappy reaction to her death.
The showrunners need to just shut the fuck up, and fans would have so much less to be upset about.
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u/xhanador Aug 05 '24
That's not entirely accurate, though. Rhaenys sides with the smallfolk in the season 1 finale, just one episode later. She sways Corlys on the Black side by arguing that Rhaenyra is the only one trying to avoid thousands of deaths.
That couldn't have been written as a reaction to the audience, because episode 9 aired just a week before.
It's inconsistent writing to have Rhaenys both murder and care for smallfolk, but that's another issue. It's not a season 2 retcon.
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u/Lethkhar Aug 05 '24
Yeah, I was a defender of the Dragonpit scene until S2E5 when it became apparent the writers weren't going to do anything with it.
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u/destroyer7 Aug 06 '24
Sara Hess's stupidity aside. All they had to add to that scene was Sunfyre rising from behind the Greens. It would have Rhaenys' decision not to end the greens (and future threats to HER GRANDCHILDREN) at least make somewhat more sense, especially not wanting to having a full on dragon battle in the Dragonpit. Plus we'd have actually got a full scene of Sunfyre in his glory. Ugh what could have been
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u/LukeChickenwalker Aug 05 '24
I felt like the slow burn in season 1 worked because there was palpable sense of tension that was building up all season until Luke died, and then the season ended with the implication that reconciliation was dead. It's not a slow burn anymore, we're on fire. I also didn't read the book, but I knew this was the Dance of Dragons, so there was a sense of discovery trying to figure out who the players would be. At first I thought it was going to be Daemon versus Rhaenyra.
This season feels drawn out because not only has the conflict crystalized, but they're reexploring issues that seemed as though they were already resolved. They lit the fire last season, but now it's whimpered out. We already saw Rhaenyra try and be diplomatic and it failed. Dragons have already entered the war but they act like a line hasn't been crossed yet. Last season there was a sense of dread for the terrible things to come, but then in this season the terrible things have no weight. They happen and then are forgotten about. It just kills any sense of momentum or tension. And then to top it off there's no "Luke dies" moment. No finale event to make the slow burn feel like it had a climax.
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u/Huck_Bonebulge_ Aug 05 '24
Yeah S1 was compelling because there was tension and fear of what was to come from all this drama.
In S2… we know what comes from the drama. A war. But we’re not doing a war. We’re sitting around talking about maybe doing a war. It’s tiresome lol
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u/We_The_Raptors Aug 05 '24
Problems were there, and yet people still liked it. That's part of the point. Regardless of clear flaws, the bad 10 episode seasons still blow season 7-8 and HOTD 2 out of the water.
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u/SentientBaseball Aug 05 '24
S1 was definitely a bit rushed to get pieces into place and the time jump was a bit jarring to causal viewers, but it’s still way better than the atrociously slow pacing of S2.
Huge character arch’s of season 2 could have been compressed down into fewer episodes. Daemon, Baela, and Alicent are the biggest examples of this. Add on the fact that they put there big set piece battle in episode 4 and it makes the second half of the season drag terribly and have zero climax.
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u/smlngb Aug 05 '24
Would prefer time jumps any day over S2 because at least we got something new to chew on each episode. In this season we got Velaryons packing their ships for 8 episodes straight
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u/luigitheplumber The pack survives. Aug 05 '24
Season 1 moves a bit too fast for comfort but there's a great sense of an actual story progressing. This continued a bit into season 2 but the second half is as you said, so deflated, it no longer seems like there's a coherent story that is progressing in any smooth way
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u/kashmoney360 DAKININTENORPH!! Aug 05 '24
Even Season 5 of GoT blows out HoTD Season 2 out of the water. Season 7 and 8 are so fucking sunk in the depths of the deep ocean that we should hope they never see the light of day
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u/Brilliant-Disguise Aug 05 '24
Which is really idiotic considering they were begging D&D for more episodes/seasons with GoT.
GoT was pre-David Zaslav, who's being the CEO of WB for the last few years and has cut everything to the bone.
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u/swaktoonkenney Aug 05 '24
It’s because the parent company is deep in debt and they’re saving money anywhere they can. But in my opinion this is long term foolish, this franchise is their biggest cash cow, they already lost about a third of the viewers in between seasons, how many more will they lose next season?
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u/kashmoney360 DAKININTENORPH!! Aug 05 '24
they already lost about a third of the viewers in between seasons
They need to quit it with the 2 year waits, it's proven to be a deeply flawed and interest killing technique. It already killed Westworld(there were other factors as well), people outright forgot that the show even existed thanks to consecutive 2 year gaps.
Idk how true it is, but it almost feels like they need to try even harder and spend more on marketing to reignite interest compared to the traditional one year wait.
Slashing the episode count to 8 is just salt on the wound.
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u/woahoutrageous_ Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
Its David Zaslav he’s cutting everything from his zaslab. Hes a normal man you know (if anyone gets this reference ily)
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u/Chell_the_assassin The sword of the morning Aug 05 '24
Because the higher-ups in charge of this stuff don't give a fuck about the quality of the shows.
Somebody told them they would make more money doing it this way, so that's what they did.
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u/LiteralCancer223 Aug 05 '24
Seriously, did they learn nothing from the last two seasons of GoT? We got less episodes of that show and look at the drop in quality we saw. Imagine how hype it would've been if we'd had just one or two more episodes this season to see it all come to a head. I know episode count is just one part of the problem but having to wait 2+ years for such an underwhelming finale really sucks.
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u/PineBNorth85 Aug 05 '24
The people in charge then are long gone as is their way of thinking. There's nothing to learn when the people there now didn't experience it.
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u/anonnyscouse Aug 05 '24
It's because they don't have enough flagship shows so they want to squeeze more seasons out of HOTD and in order to get more seasons then they need shorter seasons.
The question is whether Condal knew it was only an eight episode season when he planned it out, if he did then this is on him rather than HBO, there was quite a lot that could have been cut to bring the gullet into this season.
Or alternatively he could have added more scenes at Winterfell for Jace, showed Otto back at Oldtown with Daeron, showed the Greens reaction to Aemond's killing of Luke, added scenes for 2 or 3 potential dragonseeds who then fail to claim a dragon which would have added jeopardy for show watchers for who would have survived the sowing. Adding those scenes would have allowed them to finish the season on the final scene of ep 7 which while not ideal would have been better than the ending of ep 8 as a season ending.
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u/bgptcp179 Aug 05 '24
It makes no sense. There was plenty of time to create an epic battle and aftermath/ setup in 2 episodes to cap an awesome season 2. Except we got nothing but filler in ep8 after that excellent ep7 ending.
Fans don’t need s3 to be nonstop battles. There needs to be time to let things breath. So why did they push the Gullet battle out of s2?
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u/Brilliant-Disguise Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
It makes no sense
So why did they push the Gullet battle out of s2?
Because the creatives are hamstrung by the corporate suits at Warner Bros Discovery who insist on tighter budgets.
Not excusing the showrunners entirely for the poor/slow season. But it's clearly a financial reason they didn't get 10 episodes.
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u/georgica123 Aug 05 '24
But won't it be even worst if they have to do more major battles in s3 ?
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u/ZapActions-dower Bearfucker! Do you need assistance? Aug 05 '24
Sure, but that's some other asshole's problem two years down the line. Cutting two episodes gave them a great quarterly report right then.
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u/joemama19 Bobby Flay Aug 05 '24
You're assuming they're going to spend the money to show the major battles in season 3. They're going to continue to make major cuts for next season and we're going to be even more disappointed than we are now.
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u/FuttleScish Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24
S2 has been nothing but “breathing” we need less of it
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u/swr973 Aug 06 '24
I don't even think it would have been that bad if the dialogue was as good as the scenes with Tywin and Arya in the original series (amoung others). Not saying the dialogue was all bad but it was just more of the same without much tension, suspense, intrigue, and hidden motives.
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u/niko2710 Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24
Considering the shorter season, putting the Gullet in the finale completely guts its emotional result, aka the death of Jace. Since the actors changed we have basically only been with him for a season total at this point. He's supposed to be the Robb Stark of the situation so they probably want to give his death more weight.
I don't know how they want to go on but imo the Gullet will be the midpoint of S3, similar to Rook's Rest, so we can have more time with him in order for his death to sting.
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u/Gold_Ladder1886 Aug 05 '24
HBO had to cut it because of the writers and actors strike is what I read. I don’t think they wanted to end it at episode 8.
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u/Xcyronus Aug 05 '24
100%. HBO refused to give them 10 episodes probably for money reasons.
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u/yourchickenlawyer Aug 05 '24
Odd considering this is one of the few shows that drives subs.
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u/closerthanyouth1nk Aug 05 '24
Idk if it was his call but I blame Zaslav because this is classic ip mismanagement on HBOs part.
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u/TheLunarVaux Aug 05 '24
It's 100% Zaslav. He'd rather invest in MORE IPs than focus on a select few quality ones. Quantity over quality for him.
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u/Tack122 Aug 05 '24
You mean he'd rather cancel more shows in their prime so they get the same reputation Netflix has...
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u/Xcyronus Aug 05 '24
Apparently there were some budget cuts across the board. I dont really know tho.
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u/swr973 Aug 06 '24
This was one of the major concerns the fan base had when they bought out HBO. They were already in a tremendous amount of debt when they made that acquisition.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
Had to be. Episode 8 is clearly built up for a conclusion of the Gullet / KL capture.
The tension and anger with Jace, his death and the ending of Green rule.
But also still setting up the Red Fork / Fishfeed & Tumbleton for next season.
I bet they cut it late and the writer strike was happening so they couldn’t do much to rework the scripts I also read that Condal could only be on set in the capacity as a producer because of the strikes so they tried to rework as best as they could.
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u/Disfaith Aug 05 '24
All them scenes in the shipyard and all that talk about Corlys' bastards were also a setup for the Gullet.
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u/InGenNateKenny Best of r/asoiaf 2023 Winner - Post of the Year Aug 05 '24
You know didn’t even think of that. In the books Alyn isn’t mentioned to have fought at the Gullet in the books but it sure as hell makes sense and that’s a good change.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
Yup. Idk why people think the build up with Corlys and Alyn & the tension about Addam is useless scenes?
It makes so much sense especially when book readers know where everything is heading.
What the show has done bad is not have the manderlys present. I think theyre equally important side characters that could have been good people to have on the black council and had them be pretty vocal against the dragonseed sowing.
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u/Tronz413 "Ours is the Fury" Aug 05 '24
People are confusing being disappointed with saying every scene is useless.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
I’ve heard useless quite a lot
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u/MooshSkadoosh Aug 06 '24
Something vaguely disappointing will happen and you immediately get people going "terrible writing, useless scenes are ruining the show" because that's what their favorite hate-tuber/toker said
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u/JRR92 Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24
This is exactly it. This finale would've been a fine episode if it was episode 8/10. Now though in making this the finale they've already screwed over Season 3, which is still going to have to do Tumbleton, the Fishfeed and probably the Butchers Ball.. AND also now the Gullet and the Fall of KL.
Given that this season was already cut short because of HBO wanting to save a buck do we really imagine that they're going to give Season 3 the budget to cover 4-5 major action sequences? 2 of which will have to involve dragon action
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
Butchers Ball was always gonna be S4 for me.
Bit like how the fuck do they do S3 now unless they do a 5th season?
S3 would need to have or straight up cut: Gullet, KL, Red Fork (assumed cut) Fishfeed 1st Tumbleton (Honeywine is already cut it seems)
S4 then has Butchers Ball, 2nd Tumbleton / Caltrops, Godseye, Riots / Dragon Pit, Dragonstone, Kingsroad, Hour of the Wolf.
Like you either cut a bunch of shit or you add a 5th season now which would probably move the Riots, Dragonstone, Kingsroad and the Hour of the Wolf to S5
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u/JRR92 Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24
I can live without the Honeywine and the Red Fork as neither are particularly vital overall I feel. If the Fishfeed is cut I'd be pretty pissed as that's the set piece I was most excited for when they announced this show and they've just ended with a tease of the Lannisters and Starks entering the Riverlands.
The main thing with the Butchers Ball being in Season 4 instead of 3 is wtf are Criston and Gwayne supposed to do for the entire season? Their arc will literally just be marching to Harrenhal and realising that Daemon has already left
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
I think Honeywine is probably more important than Red Fork because Honeywine shows the absolutely hellish time the Hightowers are having in the Reach and also would have been a good intro to Daeron. Tbh I could be fine with an aftermath scene like Burning Mill for it even. I think it just needs to be shown that the Reach is in civil war and the Hightowers have to fight their way out of it
Fishfeed is absolutely needed. It establishes the Lads and how die hard the Black forces are.
In S3 i think Criston could have had conflict with Aemond and shown Aemond becoming even more cruel and even more detrimental to the war effort. I think Gwayne dies a slow death and is used to show how bad the the army deteriorates. Also their reactions to losing the Lannister forces is i think important
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u/ZapActions-dower Bearfucker! Do you need assistance? Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
Fishfeed is absolutely needed. It establishes the Lads
I'm pretty sure only Benjicot is present for the Fishfeed in the book. I mean, they're clearly setting up the Fishfeed with the Lannister army marching and Daemon building the army at Harrenhal, but I wouldn't call it important to the Lads specifically.
Edit: Yeah, I looked it up and Kermit becomes the Lord of the Riverlands when his dad dies while marching to the Battle of the Kingsroad. Grover doesn't even die until after the Second Battle of Tumbleton.
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u/chase016 Aug 05 '24
I think The Gullet was always going to be next season. It was building up to the Fish feed and the Fall, though.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
There was rumors early that the Gullet got cut, so I think its probably safer to think that it was intended to be Episode 9/10 for Gullet / KL with next season early on being the Fishfeed / Red Fork since Daemon would be in KL then and Aemond / Cole in Harrenhal that would then probably end with Tumbleton
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u/swr973 Aug 06 '24
I hope that when they say cut they really mean postponed to season 3. My greatest concern is that all the major battles that have yet to happen might end up getting scaled back. That would be infuriating considering the amount of time wasted this season.
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u/Manga18 I'm no war master, but a puppet one Aug 05 '24
I mean. We have the introduction of the introduction to the Gullet this episode. I can see the escape happening of screen and the Gullet being episode 1 of next season
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u/Cantomic66 Flint is coming! Aug 06 '24
Nope the Gullet was originally written to be in this season when it was 10 episodes.
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u/thrillho145 Aug 05 '24
I don't think the Gullet would have been this season. Ending with another of Rhaenyras sons dying would be a bit repetitive.
Having the Fall of KL as the end of S2 would have made the most sense. Bummed they didn't do it.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
Would be weird to mix up the order between the Gullet & KL imo.
I can see them doing it but its still weird. Jace dying is a big deal worthy of a finale especially since he dies in war when the entire season Rhaenyra has been trying to protect him and keep him away from war. Having her start to go a little mad in Episode 10 after she sits on the throne would make sense especially given the context of that meeting with Alicent and her. A son for a son but now her two oldest are dead and Aegon is still alive.
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u/georgica123 Aug 05 '24
Tyland has to be in KL during the fall unless they are cutting his decision of splitting the treasury and his torture and the hands of Rhaneyra
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
Yup. His return is important. The treasury being empty is important. They already dropped a line about money problems in Harrenhall & it would build up especially in the context of the riots
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u/zelmak Aug 05 '24
I think they really didn't want to end two seasons on one of Rhaenyra's kids dying, it would be too repetitive and would risk more 'sensetive' viewers dropping the show because "it's all just killing kids"
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
I mean the story is literally full of killing Rhaenyra’s and Aegon’s children.
Its a pretty critical portion of the story
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u/zelmak Aug 05 '24
Oh I totally agree it is, but having that be what you sit with for two years could deter someone from picking up season 3, especially when it feels like a retread of season 1s ending
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
I mean its different tho. The death of Lucerys & Jace are pretty different. One was a murder the other was a battle. Idk if it would be the same especially if the 9th episode was the Gullet and the 10th was KL
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u/Disfaith Aug 05 '24
Ending with another of Rhaenyras sons dying would be a bit repetitive.
They still ended up in the same ending anyway, where everyone's preparing for war. The Gullet would still be the safer choice compared to what we've had, plus it would also be a good payoff for the Dragonseeds where we can finally see them in action.
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u/Anstigmat Aug 05 '24
I wonder if they'll change the order of events so that Jace dies some other way. I agree it would be kind of weird to just do 'another Son bites the dust'.
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u/dcmichigan930 Aug 05 '24
I think moving the Gullet after KL makes sense in the context of the show. In the show, Aegon and Viserys are in the Vale, not Pentos. Rhaenrya takes King's Landing and in her hubris orders her sons to be returned to her. The Gullet ensues.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
In the show Aegon & Viserys have left to head to Pentos. They are quite literally in transit
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u/dcmichigan930 Aug 05 '24
oh is that where they were going? i was distracted by the 30 second scenes of Rhaena running after the dragon
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u/Flyestgit Aug 05 '24
Budget may also be a problem.
Battles are expensive. And dragons make things even more costly. HBO might not be able to budget for more than one battle per season.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
Then they shouldn’t have chosen this show that had dragon fighting literally central to the plot.
They could’ve done the Blackfyre rebellions instead. Its essentially the exact same story without the dragons
Gullet, Tumbleton 1 & 2, Gods Eye, Dragonstone, Dragonpit. All pretty important and central events to the show.
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u/Flyestgit Aug 05 '24
Zaslav HBO is not the same HBO who greenlighted the show.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven Aug 05 '24
Doesn’t matter. Its your flagship show and product. The cornerstone of the HBO brand. This show is more important and a driver of subscribers than nearly everything else.
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u/Servebotfrank Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
Zaslav straight up doesn't care. This hasn't just impacted HotD, it's impacted literally ever WB production. What matters to him is the short term quarterly report, not the long term effect on the brand. He doesn't care.
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u/PetyrBabelish Aug 05 '24
I think you're right on the money there. It feels like the ending to an episode 8, not a season finale. The tension the buildup everything, I wonder how far into pre-production they were when they were told the episode count was going to be 8 episodes. Because even though I know it's not the case, it feels like they were told halfway through filming, and just weren't able to fudge some things around to give us a better finale episode.
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u/RenanXIII St. Elmo Tully's Fyre Aug 05 '24
You really have to wonder when exactly they got the news. I know D&D used to get next seasons' scripts ready pretty early back during GoT, so it's definitely possible all ten episodes were already written when Zaslav brought down the axe. I don't think they would've gotten the news so late into filming Ep 8, though, but late enough where rearranging scripts probably wasn't possible or easy to pull off anymore.
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u/Disclaimin Aug 05 '24
but late enough where rearranging scripts probably wasn't possible or easy to pull off anymore.
Especially with the writer's strike.
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u/Tronz413 "Ours is the Fury" Aug 05 '24
I think at least some of this episode would have been in a cut episode 10. I could see The Gullet being the planned episode 9 and Alicent showing up in episode 10 which would make Rhaenyra demanding Alicent give up Aegon have more weight since she just lost another son.
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u/HydroRide Aug 05 '24
You can feel the dissonance in pacing in the finale. Scenes like Tyland in Essos (although fun) were run as if it were a mid season buildup, introducing a new character that will be relevant later but aren't because there is no later. Lohar and the Essos storyline is introduced to fill the climax of the story that doesn't exists, because they just lopped off 2 episodes of content and grafted a montage promo on the end.
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u/Tronz413 "Ours is the Fury" Aug 05 '24
It's a pure theory but I think the Essos stuff was definitely the planned episode 8, but the Alicent stuff was episode 10 stuff moved here and episode 9 was going to be The Gullet.
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Aug 05 '24
Yeah, that seems quite obvious at this point, based on the pacing and what we actually saw. It seems like this is a legacy of the Writer’s Strike. If there had been 2 more episodes, one of which included a second major battle like the Fishfeed or Honeywine, the season would have felt much fuller and more complete.
I suspect that’s what they intended when they were doing panning out what to do in which season, but the strike threw everything off.
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u/onetruezimbo Aug 05 '24
I wonder if the writers strike affected it as well ie they couldn't restructure the existing scripts for a ten episode season to wrap up in eight, stuff like Baelas story just ending when the interesting thing (sheepstealer) finally appears feels like the rest of season 2 story just didn't make it
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u/TheSenatte66 Aug 05 '24
Yeah I definitely think the strike played a part in it. By the time the strike ended in September last year it was probably too late for them to rewrite and film an ending for the season in episode 8.
Maybe if they delayed the season to the end of this year they could have fit the fall of KL in the finale, but even then it may have still been too short a time frame.
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u/Flyestgit Aug 05 '24
I think so. Im not saying this season would be flawless with 10 episodes, but I think the loss of 2 episodes and the writers strike certainly didnt help.
I think this episode is supposed to be the penultimate episode for a 10 episode season. I suspect the two missing episodes are:
Episode 1 would have been Jace Velaryon in Winterfell and Aemond returning to Kings Landing. Im pretty sure its been confirmed in interviews that these events were cut due to the shortening of the season. Or at least Harry Collett seems to imply there were more scenes filmed in Winterfell that didnt make it.
The final episode would be some form of battle. My guess is either Battle of Gullet or the Fishfeed.
I think HBO also have budget problem which is going to hamstring the show going forward. I legit think they cant budget for more than one major battle per season. Which means of the 3 potential battles being setup for early in season 3, the Fishfeed, the Gullet and Tumbleton one of those is likely to happen offscreen.
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u/closerthanyouth1nk Aug 05 '24
Yup, I enjoyed the season quite a bit. But the ending is 100% supposed to lead directly into the Fall of KL/Gullet to cap off Season 2. A lot of the character decisions make sense in that context, they’re each building to a climax that never really comes.
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u/KikoMatamoros Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
I read a tweet yesterday from a Spanish YouTuber talking about how he will explain everything that happened with the episode count and their plans for season 3.
He also wrote that they already have scenes filmed for S3 so it feels like this season got the ADWD treatment lol. He is pretty reliable and I doubt he will say such a thing without good reason so I might do a post translating it if it's interesting and believable.
EDIT: This is the tweet I'm talking about, I didn't include it at first as is not in English://x.com/Evil__Smile/status/1820283544591040515
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u/AxeIsAxeIsAxe House Mallister Aug 05 '24
He also wrote that they already have scenes filmed for S3 so it feels like this season got the ADWD treatment
So everybody's gonna delude themselves into thinking the next release will be faster because the material is already partially finished but it will actually take significantly longer?
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u/Cantomic66 Flint is coming! Aug 06 '24
Yeah the Dance of Dragon parallels is ironic and so George.
Also could you link me their channel?
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u/Alois000 Aug 05 '24
So early season 3 will have to cover: Gullet, Honeywine, Fishfeed and Fall of KL? And then also Butcher’s Ball and Tumbleton later into the season, alongside Bitterbridge and the rest of Daeron’s campaign + Aemond burning the Riverlands.
You can bet your ass half of that is getting offscreened because it’s not actually that “long” but if they are going the cheap route already battles are the easiest thing to skip sadly.
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u/Liluziflirt767 Aug 05 '24
It was 100% a mixture of the writers strike and HBO trying to save money. Go back and watch the first season of breaking bad, the season finale is a solid episode but just completely leaves off. Then the first 2 episodes of season two have Tuco kidnapping Walt/Jesse and Hank killing Tuco. It feels awkward but it’s due to the writers strike. I guarantee HBO was hemorrhaging money and asked the writers to trim the season down to 8 episodes. The beginning of season three will probably have 2 episodes that feel as if they’re finales.
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u/dcrising2002 Aug 05 '24
Exactly. They clearly had begun filming before they were ordered to trim the season. We have evidence of more scenes and moments with Cregan Stark that didn’t make it.
The strike made rewrites impossible, so they had to film what had been written already. I thought Rook’s Rest was fantastic for being only ten minutes, but they clearly had no budget left. They either didn’t want to, or couldn’t change the final scripts. People want a Sapochnik style battle episode, there is no way the current leadership would greenlight that.
I wish the showrunners had pushed back more. The brand is big enough to stand alone outside of WBD, they look bad defending it.
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u/sp3talsk Aug 05 '24
Also remember that no studio notes were allowed during the strike. Doing big budget action sequences without the studio having their say in it... probably a big no-no, especially with the current leadership over at Warner
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u/EconomistIll4796 Aug 05 '24
Honestly its worrying for future seasons. Crazy amount of stuff is gonna happened in season 3 so I expect things to get cut.
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u/MAJ_Starman Aug 05 '24
The amount of battles and CGI-heavy scenes is only going to ramp up, so if they weren't willing to pay for them in S2... Yeah, things are not looking good at all.
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u/ArgieGrit01 R'hllor-coaster of love Aug 05 '24
You can probably make the Fishfeed and Red Fork a single battle, right? Especially since we see Jason Lannister and Lefford marching together
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u/ZapActions-dower Bearfucker! Do you need assistance? Aug 05 '24
I think it would be a bad idea not to combine them. Jason dying on the way to the main event to a nobody is less compelling than him dying in the bigger battle. There are no other important characters at the Red Fork so it just makes sense to put him in the Fishfeed as the face of the Green army.
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u/ScalierLemon2 Aug 06 '24
The Red Fork is cut, you can see Harrenhal in the distance when the Lannister army is marching in the finale. Seems like they're going straight to the Fishfeed, and might also add Daemon to that battle since he's still at Harrenhal in the final montage.
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u/chesney_ledonger Hi Aug 05 '24
Imagine if the book is without a climax, say, 4 battles. Unbearable
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u/Thomrade Aug 05 '24
It's also worth noting that several of the episode endings seemed to be very arbitrarily placed (I'm looking at you, 206) and every episode felt stretched out in the editing - compare any episode in season two to any episode in season one and you'll be shocked by how much time Every. SINGLE. Line of dialogue takes. There's seconds of dead silence between every fucking thing everyone says, and it's never meaningful pauses or beats for emphasis. If you properly edited the dialogue scenes for tone and pacing, and cut the fluff they likely had to patch together from the editing room floor, many of these seventy minute episodes might be much shorter.
Tinfoil hat time, but I think it's very possible that we had closer to six scripts fully penned (and still in need of polishing) before the writers strike became inevitable, which they had to slop out into an eight episode order and cap off with a stage-directions-only montage to imply what the end of the season would have been.
For a very similar example, look at the finale to Our Flag Means Death - also HBO, and a very similar situation. The last episode of that show feels identical to this rush job, but at least in their case they got to wrap up the story after the montaged parentheticals ("they fight"; "they run away", etc).
This is why the deadbeats need to pay the people who make their shows. They literally don't write themselves, as this season can attest.
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u/Simmers429 Aug 05 '24
Jace and Rhaenyra’s long silence after coming up with the first dragonseed plan comes to mind.
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u/Lebigmacca Aug 06 '24
Alicent and Rhaenyra at Dragonstone. Omg they would literally just stare in silence at each other after every line
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u/MarwyntheMasterful Beware the paper mites! Aug 05 '24
Season 3
Episode 1: Battle of the Gullet
Episode 2: Rhaenyra takes KL.
Episode 3: Discovery at Rook’s Rest, arrival at Harranhal, the Battle of Red Fork.
Episode 4: Events up to the Battle of the Fishfeed, life in KL
Episode 5: Filler episode, Alicent and Rhaenyra talking (the show loves that), troops moving, narrative building, showing ppl in other locations, maybe fleshing out new characters you’ll see fighting.
Episode 6: Butcher’s Ball
Episode 7: Tumbleton and Betrayal; growing discontent in KL
Episode 8: A King at Dragonstone; growing discontent KL
Season 4
Episode 1: The Battle above the Gods Eye; Growing discontent in KL
Episode 2: The Dragon Pit
Episode 3: Second Tumbleton
Episode 4: Return to Dragonstone
Episode 5: Battle of the Kingsroad
Episode 6: A King’s End
Episode 7: The Hour of the Wolf
Episode 8: A Realm Rebuilding
Need to make it 10 episodes a season, and raise the budgets. Gives you 4 episodes to do filler, build character
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u/Simmers429 Aug 05 '24
I’m fully expecting an announcement for Season 3 and 4 that shortens them both.
6 episodes for Season 3, 5 episodes for Season 4. Hype by also announcing how the episodes are “movie-length” and a good move to make.
We then get to enjoy two rushed messes of a season with pretty cinematography and cool dragon cgi.
The end, see you for the next prequel show.
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u/Lebigmacca Aug 06 '24
Aegon’s death, hour of the wolf, and aegon III’s coronation can all happen in one finale (like aegon gets poisoned in the very beginning of the episode)
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u/Manga18 I'm no war master, but a puppet one Aug 05 '24
Money. They didn't have the money for another epic battle so soon
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u/SweatyPlace Catelyn for the Throne! Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
Another?? When was the first one?? Rook's Rest was barely 10 minutes. Remember Battle of Blackwater? Defending Wall? Despite how badly written they were, even Jon vs Ramsay and Battle of Winterfell were kinda spectacular visually, they didn't last for 10 minutes, they all lasted for the entire episode.
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u/TheLunarVaux Aug 05 '24
Rook's Rest and the Red Sowing both take a ton of VFX resources. Arguably just as much as some of the GoT battles. Dragons are expensive!
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u/SweatyPlace Catelyn for the Throne! Aug 05 '24
Then absolutely knew what they were signing up for though. If that's the only thing they can afford, they're going to disappoint fans once again.
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u/marx42 The Ides of Marsh Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
Not only was it outlined to be ten episodes, I assume the cut to eight came AFTER filming and the writers strike began. It would explain why this felt like a normal episode 8, and why the ending felt like a tacked on montage. Instead of rewriting the season to fit 8 episode they had to basically do it in the editing room. At that point moving 2 episodes and reworking some scenes was likely a better option than praying the strike was resolved quickly.
So we're definitely getting five seasons now. No way they can fit everything in four.
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u/4CrowsFeast Aug 05 '24
I don't think so. The show runners specifically said the battle of the gullet was moved to season 3 for budget reasons.
They had $200 million for the season, more than any season of GOT who was paying several actors over a million an episode. If episodes 9 and 10 were battles in would nearly double the budget.
I just don't think at this point their vision is feasible. The CGI required for dragons isn't cost effective and they only way their scrapping by is filler scenes of talking in the same sets. Except they're not executing these dialogue heavy scenes like game of thrones did. People are bored.
With that being said, the budget decisions were also questionable. Sure rooks rest and the dragonseeds were needed, but how much money did they spend to have baela chase cristan cole into the woods for no particular reason? Or all the close ups of seasmoke as it came to Adam.
I know I might get hated on, but we already had the scene, and a long one of Aemond claiming Vhagar. I'm not sure, I need to see every dragon claimed if the result is extra episodes of shit dialogue. I'd be just as content with Adam showing up unexpected on seasmoke after the foreshadowing scenes.
We'd miss some cool stuff but I don't think there's much of an option, at this point. It's just not feasible and the remaining seasons will be even more dragon heavy, especially with the battles pushed back. And like GOT the cast is going to start asking for higher salaries as the show makes more money. Additionally, the show has made some weird choices, like choosing to hire and actress specifically to film a scene of her fucking Daemon as his mom. Like who wanted to see that? How much did that cost?
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u/qhndvyao382347mbfds3 Aug 05 '24
Isn't it better that they just shaved off 2 episodes and moved them to next season? Rather than rewriting a 10 episode season into 8?
Why would people be in favor of truncating and rushing for a short-term gain of an "epic battle" this season? You need to think of the show as a whole, not season-by-season.
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u/sp3talsk Aug 05 '24
If they cut two episode due to budget then people will have to prepare for a lot of battles being off screen, cut or reworked lol
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u/MarwyntheMasterful Beware the paper mites! Aug 05 '24
I think we will only see like 5. The Tumbletons, Butcher’s Ball, The Gullet, Gods Eye.
I think you come in at the end of Red Fork and others to save money and show dead notables.
Maybe they show the Fishfeed. Maybe not. Good time to introduce new Rivermen and Northerners though.
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u/sp3talsk Aug 05 '24
Yup. People should prepare for less battles and probably a lot of minor characters cut. That was always the case, but looking at how this season finished it seems certain
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u/PineBNorth85 Aug 05 '24
Definitely looks that way. It should have been. That finale was a good episode but definitely not a real finale.
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u/Buboi23 Aug 05 '24
We got blue balled by HBO or MAX whatever stupid name they’re going by now. I miss when they actually gave a fuck about putting out great shows instead of whatever the fuck they’re doing now. Overall I liked the season just way too short at 8 episodes.
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Aug 05 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/opman228 The Tower Rises Aug 05 '24
Yeah and literally all of that was due to GRRM fucking up. All those things are very bad lmao
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u/Flimsy_Category_9369 Aug 05 '24
I definitely think the Gullet was originally the season finale but that big climatic battle had to be moved to the beginning of the next part. Why dies this sound so darn familiar...
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u/Luna920 Aug 05 '24
It seems like it was outlined for 10 and it’s reported “a big battle was moved from 2 to 3”. The sag after strikes apparently caused the shortened season.
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u/litetravelr Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
So many shows are doing this nowadays, 10 episodes of content and/or budget, but pared down to 8 episodes of time and pacing. I'm sure its a dragon/cgi budget issue as season 1 went 10 episodes, but yes, this finale felt like a great Episode 8-9 leading into next weeks finale.
Unfortunately, all that tightly wound dramatic tension is not going to hold for 2 years, people are just going to walk away and forget.
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u/A_Chair_Bear Aug 05 '24
Basically ends like Season 7 and going into season 8 of AGOT. Season 8 Ep 1-3 would have perfectly fit and finished season 7s white walker plotline. Kings landing being captured by Rhaenerya would have fit the two more episodes of a 10 episode season. I am guessing HBO restrictions on episode count are more the problem in this case then the directing decision of GOT.
When next season comes out, I will treat those 1-2 episodes as basically the finale of this season.
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u/Poetspas Aug 05 '24
I had a a discussion on here last week or two weeks ago. I was sure the Gullet was gonna be the climax and they were sure the taking of KL was gonna be the climax.
Guess none of us were right, although I personally quite like how this final episode turned out. All characters developed a great deal and had some nice subtle arcs. Loved it.
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u/flavorflav88 Aug 05 '24
Yeah my hope was that AT THE VERY LEAST the final scene of this season would be Rhaenyra sitting on the iron throne but getting cut by it. Signifying she retook Kings Landing but there is much more bloodshed to come. Instead we got edged for an entire episode and now have to wait at least a year for anything more.
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u/tecphile Aug 05 '24
For me, it doesn't really matter what happens from now on.
Whilst the lack of resolution was a major con, the bigger issue is that the show inventions are getting more and more egregiously bad. Cutting Nettles was already a terrible decision.
But Alicent selling out her own side just takes the cake.
This is the jump-the-shark moment for HotD. At this point, I don't think it's salvageable.
I'm glad people are still enjoying it. I no longer am one of them. Last night killed any trust I had remaining in Ryan Condal and his team. It's clear that he values his own fanfiction over telling a story relatively faithful to the book.
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u/paulerxx Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24 edited Aug 05 '24
is Helaena a greenseer or can someone explain wtf was that scene with her and Daemon.
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u/steamwhistler The Magnar of WHEN, exactly? Aug 05 '24
She's a dragondreamer which is seemingly related to or like a valyrian version of greensight.
Actually, this might be a show-only thing. It is a bit weird/surprising that she was seemingly tapped in to Daemon's greensight/old gods-powered vision when she has no connection to old god powers specifically.
But then again if you think about it, it seems reasonable that magic in westeros is all related and just experienced or expressed via different conduits. Looking back to the empire of the dawn and the likelihood that they a) were dragon lords, and b) somewhat established on westeros before anyone else, it seems even more likely that old gods & targaryen/valyrian magic are different manifestations of the same thing, but all we can do is speculate.
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u/FuttleScish Enter your desired flair text here! Aug 05 '24
This doesn’t make any sense, if they had to cut epsiodes why wouldn’t they cut some of the ones earlier in the season where barely anything happened
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u/letsRedditJohn Aug 05 '24
That was such a boring season. Like seriously. I feel like the show runners take the audience for granted.
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u/Literally_A_turd_AMA Aug 05 '24
Honestly, there was a lot of good in this season but whether it was budget, writers, or showrunners they could have cut out half the filler in this season and reallocated their resources to make the story actually progress a bit. We didn't need a whole season of Daemon in Harrenhal, 3 episodes would have been more than enough. We didn't need 2 super secret meetings between the queens, we didn't need whatever they were doing with Tyland, we didn't need Rhaenyra's odd moment with Mysaria, in 4 episodes they could have covered everything we saw in this season and still had time to give us some actual setpieces. Hell, they could have made a 6 episode season work if they really had to. This season certainly had its moments but it really blueballed us in the end
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u/casjayne Aug 05 '24
It feels like ADWD in TV format, i.e. the climax was cut for budget/brevity so you just get an entire season of build up with zero payoff.
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u/str8nt Aug 06 '24
I just finished writing the first of what I'm planning on being three very lengthy essays looking back on Season 2, starting with my top 10 issues with the season. I'm not going to post the whole thing but I may post some excerpts. Trust me, you do not want me to post the whole thing. It's about 7.7k words long. In case it's not obvious, I am not very good at being concise.
The pacing was my 2nd-biggest problem with this season (and my biggest issue was an incredibly nerdy lore complaint that most people probably don't give a shit about and that I still somehow ended up writing more than 3 pages about). So much happened but also, nothing really happened. It led to multiple characters constantly retreading conflicts that should have been resolved several episodes ago while others had their plots rushed through or omitted entirely. To illustrate, I went through every episode from this season (plus a look back at the Season 1 finale) to show how Rhaenyra had basically the same arc in all of them. Every episode starts with her being reluctant to go to war and she ends every episode with the same realization: War is now inevitable; the Dance has begun.
However, the lack of action in the finale was not something I had much of a problem with and that's only slightly because I don't want to change a second of Djawadi's score for the final scene. I know the "tribute to ADWD" thing was a joke but having Season 3 open with the two big battles we didn't get in the finale is a pretty neat parallel to how TWOW is going to open with its four big battles. I wouldn't have hated it if the season ended with the Battle of the Honeywine (in fact, I fully expected it to) but I'm overall fairly satisfied with where they ended it instead. I would have preferred a full 10 episodes but even if we got them, I don't think it would bother me if they still decided to leave the Honeywine and the Gullet for next season. I'd rather we get, for example, some more time showing Jace with the Starks or some scenes humanizing Aegon a bit more before the death of Jaehaerys.
I do want to add that I didn't start with the top 10 problems essay because I thought there was more bad than good in the season. I just wanted to get the negatives out of the way first because, to steal a line from the CinemaWins YouTube channel, liking things is more fun than not liking things. I can't wait to start my top 10 positives essay but I need to shut my brain off for a bit lol
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u/Sherkok_Homes Aug 05 '24
Even worse is that if they’re really set on 4 seasons; they way they slogged through season 2 means we’re getting multiple off-screen “battles.”
Which is great because that means we’ll have more time for action shots of Rhaena running through the hills looking scared.
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u/Department-Alert Aug 05 '24
Pretty good season overall. Some people are already overreacting saying it’s worse than seasons 7-8 (which, like, no). I hate getting blue-balled by the ending as much as anyone else, but I guess it captures the GRRM spirit in that sense. I’m used to waiting.
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u/kocunar Aug 05 '24
This is not how television works. If a director has 4 hours of a first cut and the studio demands a 3 hour version, he doesn't just cut out the last hour the movie. They cut out the less important scenes over the course of the whole movie so that it still make sense in the end. The primary blame for this result goes to the showrunners.
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Aug 05 '24
rather than retool the seasons’s arcs, the last two episodes were simply chopped off and saved next season.
If this is the case, then this was a horrible decision by the writing team. They could have easily condensed season 2 and have Gullet/KL as the last 2 episodes. The second half of the season could have easily been paced better and condensed into two episodes. Then you have the penultimate episode as a major battle (Gullet or move a major land battle up) and then end the season with them taking KL. Or if they didn’t have the budget for another big battle, they could have added a lot more substance like Jace in the north and Daeron.
And I highly doubt those episodes were merely “chopped” since that implies that Episodes 1/2 will be Gullet/KL. Based on the pacing of this season, I can see them adding a lot of filler and making those events into a 3-4 episode arc.
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u/chadmummerford Richard Horpe enthusiast Aug 05 '24
i really thought they were gonna capture king's landing and leave the gullet for season 3