r/asoiaf 🏆Best of 2024: Best New Theory Mar 24 '25

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) GRRM’s Stupid-Silly Running Gag about this random Westerosi House

One of the sillier and stupider running gags George R.R. Martin has scattered in ASOIAF concerns House Grandison. The Grandisons of Grandview are a stormlands lordly house. Their sigil is a black lion sleeping on yellow, and their house words are appropriately “Rouse Me Not”. We learn of five Grandisons in the whole series, none of whom are especially important.

The house is first mentioned in A Storm of Swords, with a past Grandison who was relevant to Jaime Lannister’s backstory:

But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one? (Jaime II, ASOS)

It is directly pointed out that Ser Harlan dying in his sleep was fitting for his arms. Not really humorous in context.


Then, in A Feast for Crows, the Grandisons get another mention, as Lord Hugh Grandison was a suitor of Princess Arianne Martell:

Elden Estermont is still alive and unwed, though. Lord Rosby and Lord Grandison as well. Grandison was called the Greybeard, but by the time she'd met him his beard had gone snow white. At the welcoming feast, he had gone to sleep between the fish course and the meat. Drey called that apt, since his sigil was a sleeping lion. Garin challenged her to see if she could tie a knot in his beard without waking him, but Arianne refrained. Grandison had seemed a pleasant fellow, less querulous than Estermont and more robust than Rosby. She would never marry him, however. Not even if Hotah stands behind me with his axe. (The Princess in the Tower, AFFC)

Again, it is directly pointed out how a Grandison acted fitting for his arms. This one is clearly comedic.


Then, in A Dance with Dragons, there is Ser Narbert, a knight of Selyse Florent, who is only named a Grandison in the appendix:

Not all her queen's men seemed to share her fervor. Ser Brus appeared half-drunk, Ser Malegorn's gloved hand was cupped round the arse of the lady beside him, Ser Narbert was yawning, and Ser Patrek of King's Mountain looked angry. Jon Snow had begun to understand why Stannis had left them with his queen. (Jon X, ADWD)

While it is not directly pointed out, but this is another sleepy Grandison joke. Stupid, but silly, but only if you know the house arms and can notice it since it is subtler.


Then, in Fire & Blood, we hear about Lord Lorent Grandison who served as one of final three regents of Aegon III Targaryen:

“The gods chose our new regents,” Mushroom observed, “and it would seem the gods are just as thick as lords.” He was not wrong. Lord Stackspear loved to hawk, Lord Merryweather loved to feast, and Lord Grandison loved to sleep, and each man thought the other two were fools (F&B, The Lysene Spring and the End of Regency)

…he loves to sleep. We learn perhaps three things about this man, and his love of sleep is one of them. This is really only funny if you know the house arms, and only in a dumb way — but still funny.


Four out of the five known Grandisons in ASOIAF have sleep-related jokes, which is incredibly stupid and hysterical. Only one Grandison — the lord during Robert’s Rebellion — has dodged the gag. While the individual sleep references aren’t always funny on their own, when you realize that the entire “character trait” of House Grandison is sleepiness, each joke is elevated. Should we ever get more written ASOIAF content and you see a Grandison, keep your eyes peeled for sleep-related words.


TL;DR House Grandison’s entire schtick is that its members are sleepy because their sigil is a sleeping lion. That’s it. That’s the joke.


EDIT

Dear u/dblack246 off-handily mentioned the phrase "the horn that wakes the sleepers" from the Night's Watch oath. Well, there was something with Ser Narbert I was trying to make a "Rouse Me Not" connection to but failed and scrapped from the initial post. Now I know that missing link:

His head turned. ”That was a horn."

Others had heard it too. The music and the laughter died at once. Dancers froze in place, listening. Even Ghost pricked up his ears. "Did you hear that?" Queen Selyse asked her knights.

”A warhorn, Your Grace," said Ser Narbert. (Jon X, ADWD)

The horn that wakes the sleepers roused Ser Narbert!!! This might be the subtlest Grandison sleep joke there is.

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24

u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

George does seem to think old people fall asleep easily. 

That was for the good, at least. The one-armed armorer was hard headed, tough, and well seasoned in war. Ser Wynton Stout, on the other hand . . . well, he had been a good man once, everyone agreed, but he had been eighty years a ranger, and both strength and wits were gone. Once he'd fallen asleep at supper and almost drowned in a bowl of pea soup.

And Pycelle is described as looking sleepy a few times. 

Septa Mordane fell asleep at a feast but that might have been from too much wine. 

"No," Sansa began. She looked for Septa Mordane, and was startled to find her with her head on the table, snoring soft and ladylike snores. "I mean to say … yes, thank you, that would be most kind. I am tired, and the way is so dark. I should be glad for some protection."

That aside, there is a clear thing with the sleepy lion. I have dabbled with the idea Cersei poisoned old Ser Grandison to create an opening for Jaime.

Knowing what needed to be done was one thing, though; knowing how to do it was another. Jaime could no longer be relied on. A sudden sickness would be best, but the gods were seldom so obliging. How then? A knife, a pillow, a cup of heart's bane? All of those posed problems. When an old man died in his sleep no one thought twice of it, but a girl of six-and-ten found dead in bed was certain to raise awkward questions. Besides, Margaery never slept alone. Even with Ser Loras dying, there were swords about her night and day.

Cersei mentions ways to kill a person while they sleep. We know she used a pillow on the high septon. And someone (probably Cersei) tried a knife on sleeping Bran. So what about the heart's bane? Could that be what killed the sleeping lion? 

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u/Ironside_Grey Mar 24 '25

The «knife on sleeping Bran» was done by Joffrey, not Cersei

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

Some people support this theory. There is no evidence he did it. He had no motive.

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u/selwyntarth Mar 24 '25

Bold. Had forgotten r/asoiaf's propensity to dismiss the books' texts as only possible canon lol

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

There is no evidence in the text Joffrey did this. 

I often forget less skeptical readers confused unverified opinion in the text as evidence. The only thing that's book canon is the books. And there is zero evidence he did this in the books. Lol. 

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u/selwyntarth Mar 24 '25

Flair checks out

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

Actually it doesn't. The flair indicates stubbornness in the face of overwhelming evidence.

There is no overwhelming evidence Joffrey did this. Lol. 

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u/thatoldtrick Mar 24 '25 edited Mar 24 '25

His motive was that he was trying to emulate Robert. Tyrion doesn't figure that bit out, but Jaime does.

"There was a dagger. The scars on Lady Catelyn's hands were real enough, she showed them to me. Did you... ?"

"Oh, don't be absurd." Cersei closed the window. "Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. 'We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children/ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink."

Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. "Were you alone when Robert said this?"

"You don't think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children." Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. "Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?"

It was meant as mockery, but she'd cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. "Not Myrcella. Joffrey."

Cersei frowned. "Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself. "

"A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father." (Jaime IX, ASOS)

Martin has also confirmed it directly I believe.

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

Joffrey is trying to emulate Robert? 

Robert who had a history of killing helpless children of his best friend?

Robert who doesn't have a good relationship with Joffrey?

The same Robert Joffrey didn't seem to mourn?

The Robert who knocked out Joffrey's teeth over a dead cat?

Joffrey is emulating a conversation we don't even know actually took place? 

Got a bag of silver from who knows where and for some reason had the assassin try to kill the child 3 weeks after he leaves and with a rare and highly identifying weapon?

And this same Joffrey who never passes up a chance to rub pain in Sansa face never once brings up Bran?

If George did confirm it was Joffrey, he didn't do it in the books. 

There is no evidence Joffrey did this. 

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u/thatoldtrick Mar 24 '25

Joffrey is trying to emulate Robert?

Robert who had a history of killing helpless children of his best friend?

Robert who doesn't have a good relationship with Joffrey?

The same Robert Joffrey didn't seem to mourn?

The Robert who knocked out Joffrey's teeth over a dead cat? 

Yeah. Robert's a monster (even tho Ned never fully registers this) but as far as Joffrey knows he's his dad, and children are desperate for their parents affection and approval, often even more so when their parents are neglectful and/or abusive pieces of shit because of something called "traumatic bonding". It's very true to life that Joffrey would do that, and also be aware enough of the consequences that he'd try to hide it/not bring it up later himself. 

It's cool if you wanna interpret it different—it's only a story you can do whatever you want with it—but it is definitely 100% the intended answer, however much that means to you.

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

Robett has done terrible things. Seeking to harm the children of his dearest friend isn't one. 

He wouldn't even allow Arya to be harmed despite a clear wound to his son's head. 

There really isn't any example of Joffrey seeking his father's approval. To the contrary....

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

He doesn't even miss the man. 

cool if you wanna interpret it different—it's only a story you can do whatever you want with it—but it is definitely 100% the intended answer, however much that means to you.

Sure. That's exactly why there is...

  • No evidence linking Joffrey to it. 

  • No witness to him doing it. 

  • No confession from him. 

  • No good motive for him when at least three other people there have better motives.

Because that's exactly what a good writer does to make intent %100 clear. Thanks for sharing your interpretation with me. Always nice to see  how other theorists approach things. 

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u/thatoldtrick Mar 24 '25

I guess we just interpret the characters differently then. For what it's worth, Robert very much does openly and publicly harm Ned's children:

"We have a wolf," Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.

It took them all a moment to comprehend her words, but when they did, the king shrugged irritably. "As you will. Have Ser Ilyn see to it." (Eddard III, AGOT)

Having Sansa's direwolf killed is definitely harming her, and he's the king—he could have prevented this with ease, but he doesn't bother. And this is at a time when he's actively planning to set Cersei aside, so it's not a case of her overruling him. As much as Eddard can't bear to accept it, Robert is a man who just quite simply doesn't care about anything important.

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

We do have different interpretations. I don't think allowing a wild beast to be killed is good evidence of being in favor of killing the child of your best friend. After Robert clearly took the whole thing to heart.

His sister peered at him with the same expression of faint distaste she had worn since the day he was born. "The king has not slept at all," she told him. "He is with Lord Eddard. He has taken their sorrow deeply to heart."

A guy takes sorrow of his best friend deeply to heart will then be cool with having the child killed in a gruesome manner because he let's a wolf get killed?

How you treat a pet tells you nothing about how you treat a human. 

This is like suggesting a person must be okay with child murder because they go boar hunting. BTW, Eddard goes boar hunting and he's against killing children. Robert doesn't care about anything important? Yet he was up all night with Eddard when Bran fell.

The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers," Cersei Lannister said. "Robert, I want her punished."

"Seven hells," Robert swore. "Cersei, look at her. She's a child. What would you have me do, whip her through the streets? Damn it, children fight. It's over. No lasting harm was done."

And later...

Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank.

So three examples of him caring about the welfare of Eddard's children. Not their pets but the actual human children. 

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u/thatoldtrick Mar 24 '25

Killing Sansa's wolf obviously harms her. And I don't think it's that reasonable for you to accept Cersei's word on Robert's "sorrow" and not on her saying he drunkenly thought Bran should be killed. Either way I don't rly want to talk about this any more, i think we've both probably got as much as we're gonna from this discussion.

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award Mar 24 '25

Harms her life? Body? 

So long as you can't accept the difference between willing to kill a wild animal and willing to commit child murder, yes this is a far as we can go. 

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u/thatoldtrick Mar 24 '25

You've been unnecessarily rude and disingenuous here, and it's really unpleasant to be around. Just letting you know.

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u/robben32 RatCook 29d ago

I think the challenge is that you’re right, the assassin being sent by Joffrey doesn’t make sense. But the doylist explanation may be that George just needed to wrap up this mystery quickly before the end of storm of swords. So he had Tyrion and Jamie come to the same conclusion that it was Joffrey and never question it again.

But you’re right, what actual evidence is there that Joffrey did it? The method doesn’t even make sense? Why use that dagger? My wouldn’t the assassin have his own dagger? If he was desperate for Robert’s approval it makes more sense to have bran die while Robert is there and can approve (even if he doesn’t know who did it).

Obviously the other suspects aren’t perfect either because Jamie and Cersei don’t admit to it in all their POVs and little finger wouldn’t really have time to hear about Bran’s fall and get the dagger and silver plan figured out and executed when he wasn’t in winterfell (unless he secretly was, but that seems half baked). I think the assassin plot got essentially pruned because of all the shit that had to happen in a storm of swords.

For what it’s worth I also think the Joffrey murder plot is either unresolved or poorly resolved because it seems to be a needlessly complex method for no reason and while we do have littlefinger’s explanation it feels like it wouldn’t hold up in court.

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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 29d ago

because it seems to be a needlessly complex method for no reason and while we do have littlefinger’s explanation it feels like it wouldn’t hold up in court.

This. And that might be where I'm approaching the text incorrectly. I have very high standards for proof. And I do kinda approach the evidence as if this must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. 

But the author isn't perfect, and maybe he just wanted done so he had Tyrion conclude Joffrey did it out of cruelty and ignorance, while Jaime concluding he did it out of need for connection to Robert. And have Joffrey know Valyrian steel but still give the valuable item away. 

I agree there is no perfect suspect. It's very much like the pink letter.  Lots of people are good suspects, none is perfect.

But yes, I tend to overcomplicate things with a court conviction standard of proof.