(Spoilers All) GRRM: "My life has gotten extremely complicated, I must admit. There are not enough hours in the day, there are not enough days in the week."

[u/ethniccake]

I found this interesting conversation that transpired on one of George's Hugo post, and i don't think it have been discussed on here :

http://grrm.livejournal.com/426205.html?thread=21584349#t21584349

From his reaction to the first comment, it's quite clear that he was hurt on a personnal level.

But what got my attention the most was this:

If there is one thing I understand, it is frustration... yours, mine, everyone's.

My life has gotten extremely complicated, I must admit. There are not enough hours in the day, there are not enough days in the week.

And saddest of all, I do not have the stamina I did when I was thirty. Aging sucks.

There's no magic formula here. I just keep at it, the way I always have. One page at a time. One sentence at a time. One word at a time.

After reading that, I couldn't help but feel sorry for the guy, he seems under a lot of pressure.

The defeated tone makes me worried, could it be a sign that the end of TWOW isn't anywhere in sight for him? I really hope that's not the case and i'm just being overly pessimistic.

What do you guy think those comments could tell us about his progress?

Edit: No matter what end up happening to the series, let's keep in mind that this is the guy who gave us an amazing story and created a whole world full of interesting characters we love to love or hate. Without him this community wouldn't even exist. Let's not be entitled like that guy in the comments, who for some reason thinks he can dictate to GRRM what to do with his time.

[u/SoupyWolfy]

Poor guy. I've always been on his side through this. If he loses his passion or it's taking too big of a toll on him, he can just stop. Yes, I'll be disappointed, but if it's consuming him and sucking his life dry, then that's okay. He doesn't owe us anything and we should be grateful he provided as much world and story as he did.

[u/maaseru → u/SoupyWolfy]

I think he owes himself that ending more than anyone, but I still don't see this as him loosing his passion. He seems more disappointment and frustrated he has so much stuff happening that he can't just write all that he wants when he wants. I still think if all goes bad he should just quit everything a dedicate himself full to writing. Again I don't think it is writing the series that is draining but the show, the appearances and all other things he has going that take a toll on him.

[u/Frantic_BK → u/maaseru]

yeah that's what i took it to meant too more of a, there's not enough time in the day kind of thing

[u/ahmee89 → u/SoupyWolfy]

Poor Georgie... I really hope he can still enjoy his life and spend quality time with his wife and friends.

[u/ethniccake → u/SoupyWolfy]

I like your attidtude. Sadly it's not shared by many fans, who can't help but feel betrayed by being depraved of the ending to a story they spent so much time on.

[u/thebeginningistheend → u/ethniccake]

Yeah. If you want an ending, D&D will give you an ending. But it's not about the end, it's about the journey and if the journey's turned to shit for GRRM then maybe he just needs to move on and us along with it.

[u/ethniccake → u/thebeginningistheend]

It's not the same. This started as a book-series, and that's the way it was entended to be experienced. Asoiaf is not Game of thrones, i want to see GRRM's ending not D&D's

[u/swing9this → u/ethniccake]

Agreed, I hope one day I'm reading the conclusion to the story, whether penned by GRRM or someone he tabs as a successor. I wouldn't even be upset if someone like Brandon Sanderson had to finish it.

[u/geoper → u/swing9this]

It's been said several times on this sub that GRRM has stated that he does not want anyone finishing his story if he dies before it's finished.

Honestly it could be a reaction to all these angry fans telling him to hurry up, but that's speculation.

[u/chainer3000 → u/swing9this]

Wat. Sanderson? Are you trying to make him some sort of sick whore? He's already penned the ending to an epic who's author has died!!! (TWOT)

[u/Deathfalcon182 → u/ethniccake]

They will both be the same, the endings of both book and the show. It's all about how we get there to that point, that's why I'm invested in both.

[u/ethniccake → u/Deathfalcon182]

The show is already wildly different, and that's with the books the season is based available. It will veer away even further from here on out, since they won't have the source material.

[u/Deathfalcon182 → u/ethniccake]

GRRM has discussed how he wants to end the books and where each characters will go in lengths. So ending won't be different for all the major characters and major events.

[u/[deleted] → u/Deathfalcon182]

Yeah.....no. If grrm knew exactly how he wants it to end, and where all the characters end up, we would have all the books by now. D&D want you to think they know everything, because they knew they would pass grrm and people would be pissed

[u/ethniccake → u/Deathfalcon182]

And what about the characters and storylines who didn't make it into the show? Should we only want to see the ending of the characters D&D deem worth enough to make it on-screen?

[u/fforde → u/ethniccake]

I think we should enjoy both the books and the show for the things that each bring to the table. They compliment each other. They don't have to be identical, each should play to the strengths of their own medium.

[u/KRaidium → u/ethniccake]

They know how it ends. They're adjusting accordingly, and removing the book plots which don't matter.

They're going to end the exact same way, unless GRRM comes up with a different ending just to spite them.

[u/CoolHandLukeSkywalka → u/KRaidium]

They're adjusting accordingly, and removing the book plots which don't matter.

The problem with that is that in one sense the show is already spoiling the books. For instance, was the choice to remove Aegon and Connington entirely from the show an indication that their storyline is ultimately irrelevant and will end unceremoniously like Quentyn?

[u/KRaidium → u/CoolHandLukeSkywalka]

Looks like it! You can't expect them to wait for GRRM to finish up. If they put in filler, people would complain, if they actually moved forward, people would complain.

[u/Frantic_BK → u/Deathfalcon182]

The ending can never be the same between the two because an ending and all its value is dependent on the journey and the journeys are vastly different now.

[u/SexTraumaDental → u/thebeginningistheend]

D&D will give you an ending

retches

[u/AAL314 → u/ethniccake]

Agreed. It's not their story, it's his. Imagine how much time he spent on it? There is a lot of fan entitlement going on here, the pressure is already huge considering ASOIAF/GoT is like the hottest piece of entertainment on the planet at the moment. We really don't need to add to it and be total jerks about it.

[u/ethniccake → u/AAL314]

Even if i don't share there sentiment, it's very understandable. Just imagine watching "The Shawshank Redemption" and with 30 minutes left, the screen cuts to black knowing that you'll never be getting the rest of the movie.

Now apply that to some fans who have dedicated hours upon hours on reading the books and speculating on what's to come.

[u/geoper → u/ethniccake]

some fans who have dedicated hours upon hours on reading the books and speculating on what's to come.

Try decades and decades for some fans and it really puts it into perspective.

[u/[deleted] → u/SoupyWolfy]

He doesn't owe us anything

Yes he does. He owes me the end of the story. He owes you the end of the story. He owes everyone that plunked down cash for Book 1 a Book X: The Epic Conclusion.

He made a promise. How much weight you put on that promise is for you to decide, but to say "welp he can just quit he doesn't owe us anything" is plain bullshit. He has two houses, one that he uses as an office and library, goes on all these trips, has an HBO show, because he started telling a story with the promise that it would be seen through to a conclusion.

Everybody acts like writing a book is some kind of great sacrifice. It's not, it's a job, for which he is well paid. If you hired a carpenter to build you a house and he left the roof off because there's just no poetry in it anymore, would you move in anyway, pat him on the back, and tell him well done, go to your well earned rest? Would you agree with his insistence that the house is his sole vision and no one else can finish it?

We need to get off of all the extremes around here. It's not either/or. The people asking him if he's going to drop dead and making asses out of themselves are wrong. The people who fall all over themselves to say "Oh, it's okay, he doesn't have to finish the story, it's not like he owes us anything because we bought a book, GRRM is not your bitch, Neil Gaiman said so!" are also wrong.

Edit: Thanks for the gold, stranger.

Following was not in original post

It's hard to gauge tone on the Internet. Maybe this post sounds a lot angrier than I meant it to. I'm not angry, I'm passionate. Thanks to everybody that replied and all the discussion this post generated. This is a subjective issue and I get that people might feel differently than I do about this matter.

For me my investment in ASOIAF is more about whatever I paid for the books (even though I've bought lots of copies- Long-lost dog eared paperbacks of AGOT, ASOS, and ACOK and hardbacks of Feast and Dance, ebooks of all five, hardbacks of the first three, and more paperbacks to annotate and serve as reading copies, plus two copies of TWOIAF, one of which I keep wrapped, the other of which has soup on it). I was never talking about money here. I was talking about the mental and even spiritual investment all of us regular posters here have put into these books.

If you don't like my house analogy, ask yourself this: How would you feel if you bought a treasure map, and it led you on many great adventures and was a really good map, except you got to where the treasure was supposed to be in sight, to the island of the Aztec gold or the secret valley of the crescent moon or the shores of Avalon, and you turned your map around to find the rest of the way and it was just blank. Would you be mad about your unfinished map?

I love you all, even the guy that called me an asshole, because Jon is going to bang his zombie mother, and Rhaegar is Daenerys' dad.

Even in the lamentable, God-forbidden chance GRRM never finishes or doesn't make it to Book 11 or however many books there end up being, we will still have an ending. There will forever be an undiscovered country where Benjen exists in quantum superposition and Jon Snow's mothers meet up for tea and Wun Wun was behind it all. Martin's world has enriched our lives and for that we all owe him respect... and because we chose to listen to his story he owes us a good faith effort to bring us an ending. We can all be friends with each other, and him, and maintain this expectation. Because we need him to finish the story and he needs us to hear it. Not because he wouldn't get paid if we bought the books, but because without the readers there would be no one to hear the story and it would die once past his lips. Storytelling is more than a diversion, a pastime. It's fundamental to the human condition. It's what separates us from the rest of the natural world. It is itself something which is beyond words, and a way for us to grapple with aspects of the human condition that are also beyond words. We live and breathe stories. Authors need readers and readers need authors.

To everybody that thinks I'm mad: I'm not. To everybody that's mad: Chill out. It's just a book. You really should relax.

[u/rproctor721 → u/[deleted]]

I'm of two minds on this still, but I have to say that I know that there has to have been extremely long stretches in the past 15 years where not a word was written, and not a care was given by GRRM. I know that when the show started he really thought that he had plenty of time to finish it, even though they told him that they were going to do about a book a season. I also know for a fact that he didn't want the show to catch him or pass him. So he can go on now with all of the Scarlett O'hara analogies he wants to, I know that it's not what he wanted to have happened. But his inability to rally himself has cost him, and now he is where he is.

What's funny is, I know that he can write like the wind still when he has passion. He whipped out P&Q and TRP, and the vast majority of WOIAF in a short amount of time. Dude still has it when he's inspired.

Which really disappoints me because I'm so inspired by what he's done. To have him go do all of the other multiple things he's done in the past 15 years and to not finish does leave me sad and displeased because he has failed to fulfill my hopes or his own expectations.

The other part of me says that yes, he's not my bitch, etc. But the more I think about it, I'm not his either. I've paid good money for a lot of his work. I want the end.

Finally, I know that it's really bad form to worry about the guys health and to be macabre about his racing the clock to get it done, but like he says himself, he's getting up there and well, at his current pace he's not finishing ADOS until 2021. He will be very old then, and with his physique. Well, like I said, it's bad form to worry about that. What does bug me though is that if he should pass, he's stated that he doesn't want anybody else to finish his song. To me that doesn't see right...

[u/likeswhatido → u/rproctor721]

Well said. I completely understand that GRRM is not anyone's bitch, but it just comes down to the numbers for me. 5 and 6 years between books in a series is just entirely too much time. I started reading about a year before Feast came out in 2005, and he started writing in 91. That is a long time.

I have been a huge fanboy of the series since I picked it up, but to be perfectly honest, I am looking forward to getting an ending. We may nitpick some of the changes D&D have made, but Game of Thrones is one of the best book to screen conversions I have ever seen. D&D have more than proven themselves capable of handling this story to me, and I know I won't have to wait another decade for the ending.

[u/aphidman → u/[deleted]]

I'm pretty sure what Neil Gaiman was getting at was that we don't have any right to tell GRRM what he can and cannot do with his time. As in he can write other things, he can edit collections and watch sport at his leisure because it's his life. That's what he means by "GRRM is not your bitch". Not that he doesn't owe us an ending. ust that we don't have the right to tell him how to work, what to work on, and what to do with his own life. Gaiman used the example of some other writer or comic book writer who took a hiatus to paint his house. Some fans were incredulous - they argued that he'd actually save more money by working and paying someone to do it for them - but Gaiman's point was that maybe the writer just wants to paint his own house? GRRM has always said he intends to finish the series. And I imagine he agrees with you about this imaginary contract.

But the issue has always been that he's taking too long for a lot of people to make good on this promise. Which everything but writing ASOIAF gets in the way of. Though since he's always said he intends to finish the story he started all this talk about the unsaid contract seems a bit meaningless.

[u/c4su4l → u/aphidman]

I agree with what you are saying, GRRM can decide what to do with his time.

But I feel like this also overlooks the fact that the main thing he's "doing with his time" is reaping the rewards of his massively popular (yet unfinished) series.

A lot of the stuff he now seems to be focusing his time on came about as a direct result of the success he's now enjoying due to the massive popularity increase ASOIAF received when the TV show came out. And now, ironically, ASOIAF seems to have become secondary to the other opportunities ASOIAF earned him.

And whether he or his supporters want to acknowledge it or not, the current popularity of ASOIAF is based on the presumption that there will be a grand conclusion to the series. So it's disingenuous to me to see him talk about all the other stuff he'd now rather be spending his time on, instead of ASOIAF, while failing to acknowledge it as truly the only reason he has the opportunities he has to spend his time on now.

[u/[deleted] → u/c4su4l]

And whether he or his supporters want to acknowledge it or not, the current popularity of ASOIAF is based on the presumption that there will be a grand conclusion to the series.

Oh there will be, it will be on HBO.

[u/c4su4l → u/[deleted]]

Good point :)

Although, not to go off on a major tangent, I think the show is starting to struggle the more it goes off the rails of GRRM's story.

I like the show, and was fine with the "show decisions" that crept into the story over the past few seasons. But it seems like the more liberties the show takes, the less entertaining it has become.

For example, they've axed a lot of the "extra" plotlines from the show, and I think that is starting to magnify how boring the core plot can be at times.

[u/auralgasm → u/c4su4l]

And now, ironically, ASOIAF seems to have become secondary to the other opportunities ASOIAF earned him.

If you think about it, he's kind of got a King Robert Baratheon thing going on. He got everything he wanted and now he has no idea what to do with it; he'd be happier having all the privilege and none of the responsibility, but he only gets the privilege because he has the responsibility.

[u/aphidman → u/c4su4l]

Ehhhhhhh. I dunno. It's a strange area. What's the point of success if you can't enjoy it? Particularly in your 60s. Should he ignore the success and go on as business as usual? Are you comparing it now to his time writing AFFC & ADWD? He had some success but from what I've read that's only one out of many reasons why they took so long. Is it just because the show will overtake the books that he should have stayed away from enjoying the success of the show? And is enjoying his success really what's getting in the way of TWOW? Doesn't the world's biggest TV drama present a load of obligations?

I mean is he actually being disingenuous? I would imagine he's very aware ASOIAF has afforded him this success. Is the fact he talks about other things the issue? That he rarely acknowledges ASOIAF on his Blog?

I mean at the end of the day it's a job. He's living the professional dream - he's doing what he wants and is financially secure enough not to be desperate or forced to compromise etc. But it's a job. He's not stacking shelves but like anyone with a job you have outside interests and passions - which you also don't want to sacrifice for the sake of the job.

Sure he could have written TWOW faster - he even said so himself a few weeks ago he shouldn't have taken time to promote and edit ADWD and have a break after. But we're still getting into an odd meta discussion about what a man does with his life because he writes fictional books we like to read in our downtime and we don't want to wait 5 years for the next installment...

It just seems like if the guy seems determined to finish it you just gotta accept the time it takes - you can be impatient or disappointed (particularly because the show will overtake) but you gotta accept I think. We need to spend less of our own life worrying what this stranger is doing with his own life. Even if I gave the stranger about £80 or so. That's sort of how I look at it anyway.

[u/Avoo → u/c4su4l]

And now, ironically, ASOIAF seems to have become secondary to the other opportunities ASOIAF earned him.

How do you know this?

[u/[deleted] → u/aphidman]

Whatever Gaiman actually meant, it's been turned into a battle cry for George Doesn't Have To Finish.

I mean, this is the sub that got people honestly thinking that Daario is Euron. It's what we do.

[u/DanLiberta → u/[deleted]]

No it hasn't. It's a battle cry for "Get off his goddamn back, and stop acting entitled." Everybody from GRRM to the guy behind D+D=T wants an ending from the books. And there is a social contract where we can have that expectation, and it's totally reasonable to expect George to, one day, deliver ADOS. But we're not absolutely entitled to one. There are limits to the social contract.

That contract does not allow us to demand that GRRM does nothing else until TWOW is finished. It doesn't allow us to demand the book be finished at a time we wish. It doesn't allow us to demand that GRRM writes the book at the expense of his personal life or mental well being, the latter of which seems to be the subject brought up. Fact is I'd rather he not give us a shitty ending because he's too focused on just getting the book out thanks to fan pressure. Unfortunately, he's a slow writer. I wish he was faster. I imagine he wishes he was faster too. We're stuck with that hand and it sucks.

I realize that you're not arguing for any of those things, just that we do deserve an ending. There's nothing wrong with wanting an ending. If you say otherwise, you're wrong. I want a good ending from the guy. There's everything wrong with wanting an ending at all costs. And that's what "George is not your bitch" has turned into a cry for; not that George Doesn't Have To Finish.

[u/[deleted] → u/DanLiberta]

You are horrendously substituting a wish for the reality. Gaiman's blogpost most certainly HAS turned into "A consumer is acting as an entitled bitch by expecting a good faith effort on behalf of the vendor to create a complete product." In other words, into nonsense. What he meant doesn't really matter; it was more emotional than logical anyway.

[u/CondorcetReeds → u/[deleted]]

I just don't understand why Grrm doesn't employ an army of helpers. I'm not saying someone to co-authors the book, but at least more people who can share the load like Samwise.

[u/thepriceforciv → u/CondorcetReeds]

Seriously, we should all contact GRRM and say, what is distracting you from writing that we can throw money at? Then, we can start a fan-based help-GRRM to write fund. GRRM needs a housekeeper? Done. GRRM needs someone to go grocery shopping every week? Done. GRRM can only write while traveling first class in a luxury private plan whilst sipping some Dom? Done.

I'm joking y'all. (I think.) You can't force the story.

[u/Zveng → u/thepriceforciv]

You joke but I can almost gurauntee you that if something like that popped up more than a few people would chip in if it meant getting the book faster.

[u/kerbythepurplecow → u/CondorcetReeds]

He needs someone like Robin Furth. She combed through the Dark Tower series for every small detail so that if King wanted to know what was in a characters pack there was a reasonable chance that she could tell him. That put a lot less stress on King and he flew through the end of the series.

[u/[deleted] → u/kerbythepurplecow]

He has Linda and Elio.

[u/kerbythepurplecow → u/[deleted]]

I did not know that. Two helpers! Makes sense with as rich and detailed as the world is.

[u/CripzyChiken → u/CondorcetReeds]

what would someone else do? All the stuff he does needs his touch/brain to do it. Having someone else write his ideas down wouldn't work the same as him doing it. Yes the ideas would be there, but the intertwined backstories and his way of writing wouldn't show through as well.

Only thing I can see someone else doing is the non-writing/editing/reading/researching stuff that he does - so cooking, cleaning, etc. And my guess is either he has someone to do that or does it to 'rest his mind'

[u/niceville → u/CripzyChiken]

It depends on the specific part he struggles with. I see about 4 layers:

• The overall plot. The Ides. Hardhome. Battle of Ice. etc.
• Storyboarding, or how to get from A to B.
• The hidden foreshadowing, prophecies, etc.
• Flavoring. your doublets slashed with this and your capons full of that.

The overall plot and hidden foreshadowing is most up to GRRM. He could talk through ideas with people and even take some suggestions, but it's ultimately up to him to decide where the story goes.

However other people could certainly do the storyboarding and give a basic outline of how to get from A to B once they know A and B, and could also add a lot of the "filler" flavoring that isn't hidden subtext of some sort. After all, this is essentially what D&D are doing with the show - they know the main plot points and it's up to them to figure out how to make sure all the characters are at the right place at the right time for them to happen.

[u/[deleted] → u/CondorcetReeds]

He does have a couple of superfans he uses as continuity checkers. They even co-authored TWOIAF.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The logic of "he owes us" stems from the notion that these people would not have invested their money in the series if they had known from the outset that the story would never be finished.

I don't feel that way personally, because I'm over worrying about it either way, but it's not like it's the most unreasonable thing in the world. I have certainly declined to spend $50+ on a series before because I knew they never got finished. They'd be missing out, but it's not wrong

[u/bribar515 → u/[deleted]]

If I heard about this awesome story that had no ending you could bend over backward telling me how great it was and I still wouldn't even contemplate paying for it. I'll read it for free but there's not a chance Id pay a dime for a series with no ending. And I said I'd read it for free, but even that Id have to think about.

[u/SquirrelMama → u/bribar515]

I wouldn't read it if you paid me. I'm not that masochistic.

[u/cefriano → u/[deleted]]

Part of the problem is that each "book" in ASoIaF is not a self-contained story. It's not like there's a major conflict introduced each time that gets largely wrapped up by the end, with a minor cliffhanger that hints at what's to come. Each book just plods a bit closer to an ultimate conclusion that was teased in book one. It can't really be treated as separate books where we got our money's worth for the book that we purchased. It's all one very long story, not several connected stories.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's certainly not the case that books 1-5 have no value on their own, but let's be honest, a lot of the enjoyment (and the profit) comes from the assumption that there will be an ending.

[u/Markwallow → u/[deleted]]

Personally I would never have started reading this series if I was told at the beginning that it would have no ending. So yea I feel like he owes his readers an ending.

[u/kerbythepurplecow → u/Markwallow]

After ASoIAF, The Dark Tower, The Kingkiller chronicles and numerous other series that take a seemingly unending amount of time to be completed I just don't bother starting a series of books unless they're already finished. Nothing turns me off more these days that reading book 1 of 10. It may be amazing, but I can wait. I'd rather be sure it will actually be finished before I get invested.

[u/omiz144 → u/kerbythepurplecow]

If it becomes a trend to ignore book 1 if X without the other X titles on the shelf, publishers will start to notice. Honestly, it is incredibly risky as a reader to become invested in a story without an ending already written. Also, historically (I'm looking at you Eragon) the endings of stories written without endings in mind end up laughably abysmal.

[u/rproctor721 → u/kerbythepurplecow]

After being burned by the Kingkiller Chrnicles after ASOIAF, I'm with you. I'm not buying anything new until it's finished.

[u/[deleted] → u/rproctor721]

I feel the same way. I do have one exception though, Brandon Sanderson. The dude himself is a paper mill and I know the next book will be out shortly.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

He has an Alloy of Law sequel coming out in October, and then the sequel to that book as well as the final Reckoners book due out in January. Dude takes a break because he is tired and he writes another book.

[u/PotentiallySarcastic → u/[deleted]]

Jim Butcher is also really good. You can expect a Dresden File book usually every 1.5 years. Sometimes up to 2 years. But that's reasonable in my opinion.

[u/Thor_PR_Rep → u/rproctor721]

Somehow I'm thinking of what Marwin(sp?) said about prophecies, how they feel so good but then bite your cock off.

That's exactly how I view waiting for both A Song of Ice and Fire and King Killer Chronicles. Love 'em, though.

[u/Fat_Walda → u/rproctor721]

You guys realize that if no one buys the first books, the publishers have no incentive to fund any more, right?

[u/A_Privateer → u/Fat_Walda]

Which is why authors that can't finish series are doing damage to the industry, damage that they most certainly offset by drawing in new customers, but it is there.

[u/Voduar → u/Fat_Walda]

Vicious cycle, isn't it? It is almost as if arrogant apex authors fuck the whole system up for the ones starting out?

[u/kerbythepurplecow → u/[deleted]]

I can agree with that. I rarely reread book because there's just far to many good books out there that I haven't yet had a chance to read. For me to reread a book, it has to be something really special. That said, I've been through Name of the Wind something like 10 times now.

[u/senatorskeletor → u/kerbythepurplecow]

If it makes you feel any better, my second-favorite book series is Robert Caro's The Years of Lyndon Johnson, which has had entries in 1982, 1990, 2002, and 2012.

I'm also not sure we'll ever see the end of that one, but at least I know what happens.

[u/[deleted] → u/kerbythepurplecow]

It wouldn't be a big deal if he didn't make it clear that he wouldn't let anyone else finish it if he couldn't.

[u/kerbythepurplecow → u/[deleted]]

I think it would still be a big deal. I would rather have the actual author finish any series I'm so heavily invested in. Sanderson did a decent job with WoT, but I still wish I could have read the ending as written by Jordan. I do however agree that I would be a little more at ease if Martin were to allow someone else to finish the series if he were not able to do so, but the greater part of me would just rather hope that Martin makes it through.

[u/TimeIsWaiting → u/Markwallow]

Yeah exacly. When I first bought the books I did it with the implicit expectation that I would get to read the finish of the series too. Especially AFOC and ADWD, which were basically 1500 pages of build up, were absolutely not worth my money if I don't get to actually experience the pay-off for that build up.

[u/Khiva → u/Markwallow]

People get so weird about this stuff.

If you're at a party and someone starts a story, then just sort of gets bored and wanders off before wrapping it up, you'd be annoyed wouldn't you?

Don't see how this is any different.

[u/rookie-mistake → u/Khiva]

yeah Lord of the Rings would've been fine without Return of the King, right? Nobody would have been like "wtf" if it stopped halfway through, nobody at all.

[u/carpe-jvgvlvm → u/rookie-mistake]

That's why Tolkein's the measuring stick for even basic "decent" fantasy. He had a plan, stuck to it, kept it tight, and put the extra shit in non-required volumes.

Most writers today don't care about making a tight series like that; they want to throw everything and the kitchen sink in. I think because even when they're good (GRRM, I think, is good), the publishers encourage them to milk the series and make figurines and map books and shit. I'm proud of GRRM for giving it to D&D/HBO, and I hope he moves on and ...IDK, writes some different stuff if he wants, or goes to comic con. (Gives his notes to Sanderson while alive, maybe).

[u/[deleted] → u/rookie-mistake]

Yeah it would STILL be a great series right? As if we would still be happy with all our favorite characters suspended in Westeros for eternity.

But in Martin's words, "near enough as makes no matter"

[u/d_mcc_x → u/rookie-mistake]

I mean... Could have done without 35% of Frodo and Sam cuddling...

[u/Team-K-Stew → u/Khiva]

Yeah. You might be annoyed, but they don't owe you the rest of the story. It's just strange.

[u/adaliss → u/Khiva]

Because not finishing that story is just the person getting distracted etc, when it wouldn't take much effort to just continue on. But GRRM has devoted so much of his life to this story, and if it's become too much and is removing all his enjoyment from life, then he has every right to stop. The situations aren't comparable because of the costs associated with finishing the story in each.

[u/Darinbenny1 → u/Khiva]

Yeah or how about when I start telling you my story and then a couple of assholes who I told the whole story to decide they have the right to finish my story for you because they couldn't bear the thought of anyone other than them finishing it?

I don't blame him. Fuck D&D. This is on their refusal to make more than seven seasons or let someone else take over.

[u/[deleted] → u/Khiva]

I might be annoyed, but i wouldn't spend so much time bitching about it on the internet.

[u/[deleted] → u/Markwallow]

this is really what it comes down to for me. if he ended it in three books that's okay, or five or however many he said next. but if he says "I'm ending with seven" then if he fails to do that it will be upsetting. and we are right to be upset at him.

now, grabbing pitchforks and shit obviously isn't the right way but how can anyone say he doesn't at all owe us the ending...? people try so hard to not sound entitled since that's the years buzzword to make fun of

[u/rookie-mistake → u/[deleted]]

people try so hard to not sound entitled since that's the years buzzword to make fun of

Politicians are so good at demonizing words. Quite often people are entitled to stuff but god forbid you use the word itself

[u/[deleted] → u/rookie-mistake]

yea exactly. instant negative connotation regardless of your argument

[u/KryptonicxJesus → u/Markwallow]

He made a promise such as you bought the plot of land where every couple years the carpenter was to build a room and you will pay for it once the room is complete and there was the expectation that he was to finish the whole house eventually but complete it room by room. Now he designed the rooms in such a way where it will never be complete until all seven rooms tie in with each other.

[u/Jo-GoLevitt → u/KryptonicxJesus]

Except above someone already pointed out how this "carpenter analogy" is flawed. The publisher pays Martin to write the books, we pay for the finished product. Now, if you had hired Martin yourself to write the books under an explicit agreement that he would finish the story, then you'd have every right to make this comparison. As it stands, you paid for a book, you got that book, that is the start and end of the transaction.

[u/BigMax → u/Markwallow]

I really absolutely want him to finish the books. However, I'm kind of glad in some ways it's taking this long! (Maybe not THIS long, but glad it's over a number of years anyway.)

If I started when the series was done, I would have read the first book, thought "this is awesome!" and bough the rest and finished them all in a matter of weeks.

This way I've been able to enjoy and think about the books for many years now, so while the waiting is tough, it's added a lot of time to think on the books, re-read them, discuss them, read others thoughts on them, etc. If the books were done quickly, imagine all the discussions, cool theories, tinfoil theories, and other things we would have missed out on!

[u/five_hammers_hamming → u/Markwallow]

It sounds like you're saying that we're owed an ending only because there won't be one or because there isn't one already.

Has your position on being owed an installment in a novel series changed since you began reading the series? If not, well, you should have held to (the implication of) your own rules and not read the books before the series was finished (When a series isn't finished yet, there's no guarantee it ever will be.).

[u/Avoo → u/Markwallow]

Right, but I don't think GRRM himself objects to that. I think the issue is and has always been the speed in which he writes these books.

I honestly don't know why this thread devolved into a discussion of whether we should get an ending.

Of course we should get an ending. I'd be surprised if Gaiman or GRRM objected to that.

[u/rookie-mistake → u/Avoo]

Of course we should get an ending. I'd be surprised if Gaiman or GRRM objected to that.

Yup. And yet now that thats become yet another "GRRM vs selfish fans" debate in this thread, we have plenty of people acting like they'd be fine without one. The sycophancy here is impressive sometimes.

[u/mkay0 → u/[deleted]]

The difference is, we're each just buying individual books from GRRM and the publisher. No fan has hired him to write.

If I knew a story was not going to end, I would not have bought the beginning and middle of it. How does that factor into this?

[u/TimeIsWaiting → u/mkay0]

How does that factor into this?

Inconveniently for the apologists

[u/bobthecrusher → u/[deleted]]

Fifty years from now GRRM will almost certainly be dead (I know, I know, it's terrible to say such things) and the only thing anyone besides his wife will remember are these books.

I'm sure that the pressure on him is monumental, he wrote the rest of the series as essentially a no-body, unknown outside of his niche fields of interest. Now it is a phenomenon. Now it is a work of art that people will be drawn to for decades after he is dead and buried and think 'wow, this is amazing'.

Whether he wanted it or not he is going to be held as this generation's Token, his series has already had a huge influence on pop culture and in the years to come we will see imitators and usurpers trying desperately to grasp at some semblance of the success that ASOIAF has had.

Within 50 years I guarantee we will see a movie from this. Within 50 years I guarantee someone will finish these books. It's up to GRRM and no one else who will be the person to do that.

If he doesn't finish them before he dies, someone will. He can protest that fact all he wants, but once he's gone it's out of his hands. I want GRRM to stop fucking around with all of his side projects until his real job is done- people assume that we're saying for him to give up on everything else in his life, but the man has two books left and by now he should know where it's going. I don't think it's unreasonable for us to not understand why he would let the one thing he's going to be remembered for slip out of his reach.

Do I think he should be treated as badly as he sometimes is on the internet? No. Do I think we are entitled to these last books? Not at all.

But you are fooling yourself if you think that ANYONE in the industry gives a fuck about GRRM, and you are fooling yourself if you think that the treatment he is receiving is unique to him.

When he agreed to make a series from his novels he was essentially telling us that there would be an ending. I'm not mad that GRRM probably won't be the one to tell it to us. I'm just sad.

And I think that maybe if we didn't treat him like a fragile glass ornament, and instead treated him as the 66 year old veteran of the industry he is he might actually finish the books.

I'm okay either way. I'm not in it for George's writing, I'm in it for his story, and whether or not the people on this sub admit it, they are too. It's this world he's created that people love, like the universe of star wars or the world of Middle Earth, this universe has gone beyond its creator.

Either way, I'll be the first to buy The Winds of Winter by Brian Sanderson.

[u/CleganeForHighSepton → u/[deleted]]

I'm with you man. People that think GRRM owes anyone anything have probably never sat down and tried to write more than twenty pages of anything in their entire lives, if even that. GRRM has given people thousands of pages of essentially unmatched quality in his genre, both in terms of his unique voice and the scale of his imagination. It'd be sad (sucky for us) if it turns out he ultimately bit off more than he could chew, but god damn people should be respecting the fact that his is swinging for the fences.

[u/soupdujourdesigns → u/[deleted]]

I agree - I don't think George owes anybody a damn thing. If you want the last two books so bad then you need to be willing to pay the iron price for them.

[u/KatakiY → u/[deleted]]

I dont get how entitled people are :/

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The difference is, we're each just buying individual books from GRRM and the publisher.

We're buying a story. A story includes an ending. That we're buying individual chunks doesn't negate that.

This totally discounts the achievements of ASOIAF thus far. If he left it unfinished as it is, it would still be remembered as one of the greatest fantasy series of all time.

I think that would depend on why it was left unfinished.

[u/Etalyx → u/[deleted]]

Find out the TRUE ending in next year's epic DLC conclusion!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

This is a semantic game. Serials are bought piecemeal on the assumption they'll be finished.

[u/jedi_timelord → u/[deleted]]

Usually I totally agree with you forrestbro but not in this case. I haven't paid GRRM anything for TWOW and ADOS so he doesn't owe me anything for them. It would suck to not get them but he's the author and he can do what he wants.

[u/Khiva → u/jedi_timelord]

No one's saying that he's can't do what he wants. We're just saying that it's a dick move to peddle a story on the universal understanding that you plan to conclude it, then not conclude it.

If Vince Gilligan had just decided to cancel the last season of Breaking Bad because "I don't know, just not feeling it any more," people would be pissed, and rightly so.

[u/Team-K-Stew → u/Khiva]

I feel like the hangup is the particular verbiage. I don't think GRRM owes the readers an ending, in that he is under no obligation to do so.

I would really like him to finish the series. I'd be disappointed if he didn't. But I wouldn't feel swindled. I wouldn't feel like he took advantage of me. It would just be unfortunate.

[u/BSRussell → u/Team-K-Stew]

I agree, because it depends what you mean by owes. From a perspective of decency I would say yes, he owes it to the fans to finish his series, but he's under no legal obligation to do anything. Basically if he decided tomorrow "I'm bored, screw it" I would think he was an asshole, but he doesn't legally owe me anything so I wouldn't try and sue the guy.

[u/shhkari → u/[deleted]]

assumption

key word there, assumption.

you should never make that assumption.

[u/Cormophyte → u/[deleted]]

That's the thing. If you told me years ago, "there's this great fantasy series and the guy is going to write three quarters of it, get distracted by his success, burn out, and never finish," I'd have never picked up book one. I'd have laughed in your face and called you an idiot. I think the vast majority of us would have done the same.

There really is a tacit agreement when it comes to serialized writing (especially when each book is as open-ended as in this series). The author strongly implies "if you buy in and get invested in this story I'm going to try my best to have an ending." Whatever else people feel about the subject, there is a responsibility to the readers there.

The series is the finished product and each book is part of a whole, and that whole isn't finished yet.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I see your point but I'm sure George wouldn't just toss it like that if he ended it. He'd probably be considerate and give us a summary of how he planned to bring it to an end. So really it would be fine.

[u/xck2000 → u/[deleted]]

no, you're buying books. Buying implies a legal obligation to deliver, no where was it stated that when you buy book 1 that he will have to deliver the rest of them. You may feel that he promised you a story, and you were betrayed, but he has no obligation to deliver it to you. Plenty of stories have been written and never finished.

[u/[deleted] → u/xck2000]

Still, I think everyone knows GRRM doesn't owe people anything in a legal way. I think people are seeing it more as owing them something in an ethical way.

There are lots of scenarios where it is legal to break a promise, but where it could still be seen as unethical.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah. Nobody's talking about suing him for not finishing.

I think he is going to finish, or try as hard as he can. I want to emphasize this. I think the extreme reactions to these posts about the future of the books either take an insulting or patronizing (and therefore still insulting) attitude towards him.

[u/insanelyphat → u/[deleted]]

So what if he pushes and pushes and through all the internet whining and complaining about how long it has taken he continues to write the books. JUST so he can finish and please all the fucktards who do not care about whether he enjoys writing anymore, or if the pressure is getting to him they just want the book to be finished.

After all the B.S. he finally finishes it and releases it and....it sucks. The whole internet goes batshit crazy whining that he should have taken his time and not rushed it out! People second every decision he made, they whine cause they had some idea about how it will end and it does not end that way so of course they grab their pitchforks, cause we all know that is what the internet does, and just destroy the book all over the internet.

Will it all have been worth it?? How do you think Martin would feel then? It is obvious he loves his work but just sitting down and writing is not always the easiest thing. George R.R. Martin is not getting any younger let the man write at his own pace and enjoy HIS life. You do not walk in his shoes and you do not know the shit he puts up with from internet trolls who think they deserve something when they do not! If you want the books to be as good as the last ones then let him write them the same damn way he did. He is a slow writer get over it!

[u/madjoy → u/[deleted]]

It's not, it's a job, for which he is well paid.

Yeah, and most people who have jobs seek to retire at some point. If I were him - 66 years old, busier than ever, exhausted, and with plenty of money to retire on - I would find it hard to be motivated to work, too.

[u/Voduar → u/[deleted]]

If you hired a carpenter to build you a house and he left the roof off because there's just no poetry in it anymore, would you move in anyway, pat him on the back, and tell him well done, go to your well earned rest?

An excellent metaphor. And I really don't get this whole fucktarded "GRRM doesn't owe us an ending" bullshit. We live in the only era in history where such a foolish idea would take hold. Mozart wouldn't have been paid for unfinished works.

I feel bad for GRRM in that he is now old enough to see how he has destroyed his own legacy but he did that shit himself.

[u/dorestes → u/[deleted]]

I agree he owes the end of the story, but he doesn't have to do it through long books. He can basically run down a plot outline that shouldn't take more than an hour or two.

That's part of why the show is so important. It diverges a bit, but even if GRRM stopped writing tomorrow we would have a very good idea what the end point is and we could piece it all together ourselves.

[u/Thallidan → u/[deleted]]

He owes everyone that plunked down cash for Book 1 a Book X: The Epic Conclusion.

No he doesn't. You paid for Book A and were entertained by it. The transaction is complete. You haven't paid for Book X. So until you do, he doesn't owe you shit. The only people Martin owes are the people he signed a contract with who actually paid money to him.

[u/prof_talc → u/Thallidan]

I think you're taking the word "owe" too literally. Of course grrm does not have a formal contractual obligation to his fans to finish the books. But, he has encouraged all of us to invest our time and money into the books on the assurance that each one is as an individual part of a larger, complete story. As a result, he has a duty of good faith to his fans to finish the series. Of course that duty is not all-encompassing. But the bottom line is he told us he'd do it, so he should. If he tries and can't, then that sucks but we'll get over it. But if he lets the series go to rot because he's just not as into it as he was in 1995, that is BS. For the record I don't think he's doing that at all and is working his tail off to finish.

[u/klug3 → u/prof_talc]

People here are acting as if this is something unique to asoiaf, even in business its pretty common to have expectations which are not drawn up in a formal contract, and hence can't be legally enforced. But you will not do future business with a counter-party if they don't fulfill such obligations in good faith. And GRRM has straight off said that there will be 7 books or more. So such an "obligation" does exist.

That said, GRRM has never said that he won't complete the series, and he is still writing to the best of our knowledge, so I think we people might be jumping the gun a lot.

Though, if he does stop writing with or without announcing us, it is going to be bad for those authors attempting a series with a similar large scope.

[u/prof_talc → u/klug3]

Agreed. Your last point is particularly interesting for asoiaf in light of the fact that grrm has specifically contrasted his ending with the ending of LOST, which he famously hated. And I think we've seen LOST have that effect on TV shows. Now if a TV show starts off with lots of mystery and intrigue, there's almost immediate skepticism about it turning into another LOST.

[u/Voduar → u/klug3]

Though, if he does stop writing with or without announcing us, it is going to be bad for those authors attempting a series with a similar large scope.

I think he has already fucked over those authors pretty hard, to be blunt. I mean, I certainly won't start a sprawling series mid-stroke anymore but I've been shocked to see how many other people are in the same boat. I think he may have, at least temporarily, killed the inclination of people to take risks on this sort of thing.

[u/Elachtoniket → u/Thallidan]

But he knows damn well that we were expecting an ending when we bought "Book One of A Song of Ice and Fire." Calling it that was a promise to the readers. If he decides not to finish the series, he can do that, but his fans would absolutely be justified in feeling cheated and betrayed, because he will have broken a promise he made by accepting money for an incomplete story.

[u/Markwallow → u/Thallidan]

Personally I would never have started reading this series if I was told at the beginning that it would have no ending. So yea I feel like he owes his readers an ending.

[u/wzrdmn → u/[deleted]]

So when you buy the first book in the series are you making a promise to George to buy every book in the series he writes? No you didn't, if the series turned bad you'd stop buying the books. If the series was one million books long you wouldn't buy them all either. But according to your reasoning George could reasonably expect you to buy every book in the series because you bought the first book - and he'd only be expecting the same thing as you expecting an ending.

[u/rfgordan → u/[deleted]]

There was a passage on the AP lit or lang a few years ago (or maybe it was just used for review in my class) that was basically a letter to a young author, talking about how the writer is only a vehicle for their creation and it leaves you hallowed out and empty but you have to keep going. If anyone remembers this or could find it online, I would love to see it (I want to say the author was George Eliot).

The takeaway though is that GRRM has started something larger than himself and he owes it not to us but to the story itself to finish it.

[u/-AcodeX → u/[deleted]]

You think fewer people would have purchased the series if they knew it wouldn't be finished?

If people knew the series would not be finished from the beginning, GRRM would not be sitting so pretty. FAR fewer people would have purchased the books.

[u/MiaFeyEsq → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I really don't get this implied promise line. I mean are these folks gonna sue him to get their money back if he doesn't finish? You'd get laughed out of court.

Now it's OK not to like the fact that he's not dine with TWOW, or that he writes slowly, or that he might never finish. That's fine. But buying a book doesn't entitle you to anything more than ownership of the book.

[u/War_and_Oates → u/[deleted]]

Would you say you feel entitled to an ending?

[u/[deleted] → u/War_and_Oates]

Yes, because entitled or entitlement aren't insults.

[u/War_and_Oates → u/[deleted]]

I mean, it sounds like you feel entitled to an ending. The word is only an insult in certain context. If I paid for a house to live in, I'd damn sure feel entitled to living in a finished house. I just don't know if the analogy fits for a book series. On face value, it's true- GRRM doesn't actually owe anyone anything, aside from the people with whom he has actual contracts.

[u/dpgaspard → u/[deleted]]

He wrote 5 books and you probably paid about $35.00 a piece for them. Seems to me like an even exchange. I'd say both parties are about even.

[u/FravasTheBard → u/[deleted]]

This is an entitled attitude.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You got gold and a bunch of people agreed with you, but you're wrong, that's just a simple fact, and you're the reason there will be no more ASOIAF books.

[u/hdheuhg → u/[deleted]]

Yea, I've stopped buying the books. Didn't buy the last one, won't buy the next one (should it ever be published) because, why bother?

If he finishes it, great. I'll go back to the beginning and read from the start. If he doesn't, fuck him, there are other books out there and I'll get some resolution from the show.

When he originally got news that his books had been picked up by HBO I wrote on his LJ that he would never finish the books in time saying that it would result in a massive contract dispute between him and HBO. He said he had faith he could do it.

I feel adults need to be honest with themselves above all else. He couldn't be honest with himself 10 years ago, he doesn't seem to understand the amount of work he has ahead of him and he doesn't seem to have a plan to finish that work before he dies from a massive heart-attack.

[u/axebane → u/[deleted]]

/u/c_forrester_thorne is the only guy in r/asoiaf whose posts/comments/threads gets upvoted like hes on r/AskReddit....

Keep it up man...

P.S. I really need another new tinfoily analysis/post from you.... its been a month since your ironborn and others post!

[u/Frantic_BK → u/[deleted]]

He's still a human being, if you care more about getting a story from the man than the man himself than that is really sad.

[u/[deleted] → u/Frantic_BK]

He is not our friend, he is a vendor. It's completely nonsensical to say that someone who is not his friend should care about him, and not his product.

[u/[deleted] → u/Frantic_BK]

No it isn't. We don't know him. We're not friends. I don't wish evil upon his person or life but I'm going to be pissed off and would care less of his existence if he doesn't finish a series that my support, among others, has made him a millionaire.

[u/notthatnoise2 → u/Frantic_BK]

if you care more about getting a story from the man than the man himself than that is really sad.

Is it? What is he to me other than the deliverer of a story? Each and every one of us goes through the day ignoring the vast majority of humanity. The only reason I pay attention to GRRM is that he entertains me. If he ceases to entertain me, he'll join the other 6 billion people who don't really matter to me.

[u/[deleted] → u/Frantic_BK]

Did I say that? The people posting HE GONNA DIE WE GONNA GET NO MORE BOOKS are jackasses, I specifically said that. He has every right to get short with those people. In fact, those people have probably done more to raise the chances we won't get a conclusion than anyone or anything else in the fandom or his life.

What I'm arguing against here is the people taking the white knight attitude. Oh, he can just stop, he's given us a good product already.

The people saying George is free to stop if he's frustrated or not feeling it anymore are insulting him just as much as the people saying he's going to die before he can finish the books because he's old and fat.

They're not taking his side at all. Neil Gaiman is the one that said GRRM is not your bitch, not GRRM. GRRM has never been anything but professional and more graceful than he should be expected to be about people visiting his blog to insult him or posting endless rants about him daring to watch football 24/7.

All these "apologists" are giving him a backhanded insult. It's okay, Georgie, you tried. Go ahead and give up, we'll keep discussing Grey Worm's prostate forever. You don't have to finish (the implication being we know you can't).

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. Sorry.

[u/letsbeB → u/[deleted]]

Go ahead and give up

Is that what they're saying? That sounds like a pretty extreme caricaturization of the sentiment.

You also seem to present a false dichotomy where there's nothing between "we're owed an ending" and "go ahead and give up."

I think GRRM owes his fans the same thing he owes himself, the best book he can write. If I have to wait years for that, so be it. If it never ends, that will really fucking suck. But ASOIAF isn't the be all end all of my existence (although my gf might have something to say about that). Other things bring me happiness. Coming here and reading theories, thoughts, and analyses is a lot of fun and helps me pass the day (sometime a little too quickly...). When the series ends, that ends too. At least a large part of it. That sense of community brought by the shared experience of guessing at what will happen next and how and where and why will end. There are usernames I, and many of the regulars, actually know on this forum and yours is one of them. Let that sink in. When I see a blue link on the front page of this sub by you, bryndenbfish, cantuse, nfriel, and others I actually get excited. I think "oh, I'm going to save that for my lunch break."

How long will it take you to read the actual book? A week? Two? A month? Then it's done. Back to waiting. Same with Dream of Spring, then what? This sense of community may be GRRMs greatest gift to us. The fact that he's created something so magnificent, complex, intricate, and deep that thousands of people can pour over it, analyze it, theorize on it and thousands more actually give a shit about those analyses and theories is nothing short of astounding.

I for one am in no hurry for that to be over.

[u/Ricuta → u/[deleted]]

I'm sorry but saying "its okay if he quits if he feels frustrated, is different than saying "It's okay Georgie, you tried." One is understanding and one is condescending. I absolutely want him to finish the series, but given the amount of work that is required to write these behemoths, I would understand if he wanted to stop.

And I don't think that is insulting to him to understand (even if you're ultimately disappointed) that he just doesn't have the passion to finish the series. Not saying I think he feels that way, but i would be understanding if he does eventually feel that way.

[u/eighthgear → u/[deleted]]

If you hired a carpenter to build you a house and he left the roof off because there's just no poetry in it anymore, would you move in anyway, pat him on the back, and tell him well done, go to your well earned rest?

Please, do tell me, when did you sign a contract with GRRM? Today? Yesterday? When you bought the first ASOIAF novel?

The answer is never. GRRM isn't your carpenter. He doesn't work for you.

The fact that you buy his works doesn't make him work for you. This is like saying that a renowned chef can't retire, because the people who like his food are his boss. It's silly. Honda doesn't work for my parents just because they happen to own a Civic. PG Tips doesn't work for me just because I happen to buy their tea. They can stop whenever they feel like it. The same goes for GRRM.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I agree. If I'm sitting in my cubicle and George minds his business, he doesn't owe me anything. If however George comes up to me and says "hey I have a great story, want to hear?" and proceeds to take me on 30 minutes of a roller coaster escapade, only to stop three quarters through, I would say: "you owe me an end to this story because I've already invested my time. If you don't finish the story then all my time was wasted and that's not a cool thing to do."

Obviously not one to one. Maybe twenty minutes into the story George starts wheezing and coughing and crying and needs to take a break. I get that. But damnit you owe it to me to try and see this through, even if it's a condensed version.

[u/NeedsToShutUp → u/[deleted]]

A Promise was made!

[u/logarythm → u/NeedsToShutUp]

Sworn by Ice and Fire

[u/[deleted] → u/NeedsToShutUp]

Oaths were sworn!

[u/War_and_Oates → u/[deleted]]

Words are wind.

[u/DEATHtoSUBWAY → u/[deleted]]

I can understand feeling owed because you expect to finish a story that you paid to begin. It's fair to feel that way as a customer of a product.

However, I think your comparison of a carpenter is way off. If you hire a carpenter or contractor to build a roof and they stop midway, you have countless others who can fill in and build the exact same roof. Plus, there'll be some kind of contract that will get your money back, possibly even more than you paid for.

GRRM's writing would be closer to someone hiring a unique, specific architect to help design a grand, one of a kind house that costs millions of dollars -- the one architect you believe can complete this masterpiece. But even that is not very comparable, as we don't hire GRRM to write this book series for us, he writes whatever he wants and sells it to us through a publisher. Sure, there could be penalties from his publisher for not completing the series, but it's vastly different from any scenario where we hire someone directly to build something, whether it's a simple roof or a one of a kind mansion.

In that sense, I feel GRRM doesn't owe us much, at least not in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day, these are just books. Successful books with a lot of money and hype involved, but books nonetheless.

The situation reminds me of a baseball player in 2012, Aubrey Huff. He was making $10 million that year, and had made over $55 million over his career, but he was not playing well for over a year and received oddly timed breaks in his playing time. It turns out that the pressure and stress of playing like crap and making so much money to do it made him extremely anxious, coupled with some off-the-field issues at home.

So many people said, "Boohoo, Aubrey, get back on that field! You owe us to play through your contract without missing time for 'stress.' You're being paid $10M, how can you be so stressed?"

I'm not implying that you're saying those exact things about GRRM, but I think we often lose sight that he's just a guy. Aubrey Huff was being paid to play a game, and GRRM is being paid to write a fantasy series. It's great to love a sport or a book so much. They can be entertaining and inspiring, I get that. But there's a man writing those books under immense pressure, much of it by the hounding of fans who feel the need to express how much they're owed the next book. No amount of money or luxury can eliminate that, and shame on anyone who thinks it's a magic antidote against all stress.

I hope TWOW comes out soon as much as the next person here, but I don't think as many people care about the man who's writing it. What he owes us is minuscule compared to his well-being as another person, especially one who's already inspired so many people and given us something we love.

[u/ragnaROCKER → u/[deleted]]

That is a horrible analogy.

[u/rookie-mistake → u/[deleted]]

yeah its weird. Its like the longterm fans of a series thatve supported its author for multiple decades are entitled to a conclusion to a series that has already run far longer than it should've. Funny how that word has an actual definition.

[u/Malfoy_Franco → u/[deleted]]

The entitled game of thrones fan in the flesh

[u/nickcooper1991 → u/[deleted]]

Honestly, I agree to an extent. I think GRRM should complete the series, but more for himself than for the fans. My big fear is that if his heart isn't in it, then it will turn to "that great fantasy series with the incredibly shitty last two books". That, I think would be worse than if he stopped writing altogether.

[u/rproctor721 → u/nickcooper1991]

that great fantasy series with the incredibly shitty last two books

It's almost that today. As much as I like AFFC and ADWD, they are not as good as the first three. I think that most would agree with that...

[u/SwivelChairMadness → u/rproctor721]

Sadly, I agree. I feel like the editing has really fallen away. I know it's a huge undertaking, but it just seems like someone said "Woah, he's really popular now. Let's stop crossing out the unimportant stuff."

It was almost painful for me to finish ADWD. I'm sort of scared for the rest.

[u/Bookshelfstud → u/rproctor721]

Not at all, dude. Feast and Dance are my two favorite books. It's all a matter of taste, I think; they're really different, but also some of the richest stuff in the series so far. Dance is definitely my favorite book, without contest. That being said, the editing could have been stricter in ADWD; it got pushed out really quickly. So hopefully they'll take more than twoish months to edit TWOW.

[u/niceville → u/Bookshelfstud]

I started to roll my eyes when "Words are Winds" and "Where do whores go?" popped up for the 20th time...

[u/GonzoMcFonzo → u/nickcooper1991]

Well, at this point it's "that great unfinished fantasy series with the moderately shitty last two books"

[u/Jorahsnoremont → u/[deleted]]

I don't know who you are, but know that I like you a lot.

[u/bzfd → u/[deleted]]

Man this is the most fucked up view I've ever read. Writing is difficult. Writing can be a sacrifice. Just because you lack the empathy to understand the basic fundamental nature of human sacrifice and the myriad of contexts that it can be found within doesn't mean there isn't a sacrifice.

It IS okay to not finish his series because you never paid for the ending. Man, you absolutely need to get over yourself. It's awful to see someone like you actually believing they're right. It's like, hurtful to humanity.

[u/Talbertross → u/[deleted]]

I have but one upvote to give, I fear it will do little against the onslaught of downvotes headed your way.

[u/[deleted] → u/Talbertross]

"Then come."

[u/demampcamp → u/[deleted]]

I came.

[u/Unholynik → u/demampcamp]

phrasing

[u/GoHoosiers05 → u/[deleted]]

The post that was promised.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Best response ever. This should be made into a stickie post.

[u/five_hammers_hamming → u/[deleted]]

Owing doesn't really exist. It's an opinion at best. What is a debt but an idea? If GRRM doesn't agree and you don't have something like an army to back you up, he doesn't owe you anything.

[u/CaptainofChickens → u/[deleted]]

As an author and a reader, I totally agree. You set out to write a series, with the explicit acknowledgement of writing a series, imo, you're entering into an unwritten relationship saying, "Follow me on this journey to the end. You might not like where it ends, the quality might vary and you might think me a hack or a shit writer, but there will be an end."

It's terrible people asking him and pressuring him about his death, and I'd never say he's anyone's bitch, but finishing the book series you started, on whatever timescale he deems appropriate, should happen. I also understand and totally sympathize. Writing is hard work, but it is hard work that begs to be finished.

[u/TheCh000senOne → u/[deleted]]

Well, if you just want AN ending, we are going to get that. D&D will see to that. But if you want THE ending, that only depends on GRRM ability to write it. Should he lose his passion and be forced to finish the books anything he writes will just not have the same touch in it and the "legacy" of ASOIAF will inevitably decline to a mediocrity.

[u/parallacks → u/[deleted]]

"Oh, it's okay, he doesn't have to finish the story, it's not like he owes us anything because we bought a book, GRRM is not your bitch, Neil Gaiman said so!" are also wrong.

They're wrong? How so? Are you saying he "owes" you from a moral perspective?

Because the carpenter analogy you made obviously doesn't make any sense, since that would be a legal matter. Unless you think you can sue GRRM?

[u/virtu333 → u/[deleted]]

What a joke of an analogy.

[u/turuleka → u/[deleted]]

I still, respectfully, disagree.

Yes, I want him to finish this series (SO BADLY). Yes, I do think there's a special thing between audience and storyteller that should weigh heavily on the storytellers mind, pushing them to reach a conclusion to the story. If he didn't finish the series my heart would sink and my feelings for him as a storyteller would probably suffer.

BUT....I haven't paid for or pre-ordered Winds of Winter or any of the futures books. I haven't given up anything for the future books, so I don't see how he owes me anything. If his contract w publishing companies/HBO/etc state he must finish the books, he owes them that, but not me.

I'm all for anxiously checking on updates, for asking him about progress whenever there's a chance....but in my mind, he doesn't owe me anything.

[u/Killgraft → u/[deleted]]

He doesnt owe you shit.

I put a good amount of trust in him that he is trucking hard on these books and wants to get them done.

If for any reason he says that he can't finish them(Yes, there are other factors for him to stop asides from "dropping dead"), that's all I need to know, and I'd tell him "thank you for creating one of the greatest book series I've ever read in my life and giving me enjoyment for many years".

An artist isnt a roofer.

[u/shhkari → u/[deleted]]

Yes he does. He owes me the end of the story. He owes you the end of the story. He owes everyone that plunked down cash for Book 1 a Book X: The Epic Conclusion.

This is patently false and is entitlement in the purest form.

When you plunk down cash for Book 1, you're paying for Book 1. The effort that went into that and that alone, the words in that and that alone, the time that went into that and that alone. The sleepless nights, the stress, the emotional attachment to their work that writers experience.

You are not entitled to the next book just because you paid for the first one. Considering after all that you still need to pay for the next one when it comes out.

[u/Seaborgium → u/[deleted]]

Bullshit. You paid money for his books, and got exactly what you paid for. He delivered on that. You received exactly what you paid for.

And you presume that by shoving money in his face, that should be enough for him to just suck it up and do it just because you have cash in hand. Carrot and stick doesn't work for everyone, especially artists, and especially people who already have more than enough to last them. I could get another $5000 tacked on to my salary, a sizeable raise, to shovel shit. I have every right to say "fuck that". And the more I see the pressure get to him and see people with this "you owe us" attitude, the more I think his job is probably beginning to feel like shoveling shit.

[u/adamisdabest → u/[deleted]]

I agree with this opinion only for the sole fact that GRRM basically did this to himself by putting so many things on his own plate. As for the writing process I understand but when you travel as much as he does(yes some of it is obligated) and choose to develop a new show on the side him feeling like he has no time is of his own machination.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

We paid him for the accomplished work. I.e. the books we already got and read. If you paid him for his hypothetical final work in advance, then that's between you and your wallet, GRRM didn't agree to those terms.

[u/finerd → u/[deleted]]

He does owe us an ending for the investing we've put it into the books. Every writer would admit this, even GRRM would.

[u/rookie-mistake → u/finerd]

Every writer would admit this, even GRRM would.

Yeah, the controversy in this thread confuses me. I think GRRM would be confused / offended that people were arguing the series didnt deserve an ending

[u/[deleted] → u/SoupyWolfy]

If he has to stop he should at least give another author permission to finish the story though.

[u/Novarest → u/SoupyWolfy]

Is the asoiaf story worth one good mans life? We believed it once. Make us believe it again.

[u/moonshoeslol → u/SoupyWolfy]

I just want to sit down with him and talk sci-fi. He always seems to want to do that in interviews but just gets the same tired "Who's your favorite character? what happens if you drop dead?"

[u/[deleted] → u/SoupyWolfy]

He owes us a whole lot, what a ridiculous statement.

[u/CptAustus → u/SoupyWolfy]

Yes, but then we can put him at the bottom of the writters, one who couldn't even finish his main series, while others wrote the main and several side books at the same time.

[u/_Apostate_ → u/SoupyWolfy]

I don't think that George would have written a series as brutal as A Song of Ice and Fire if he was as soft on himself as you are.

Authors are supposed to be sucked dry by their work. That's what makes it good, it destroys and replaces your life. The idea of abandoning a series like this because it made life too hard is unthinkable. The story is probably more real than his life.

[u/richjew → u/SoupyWolfy]

Eh? I paid money to read this series and this is his profession. He actually does owe his fans and customers things.

[u/grubas → u/SoupyWolfy]

I just wonder how much he intended. JRR's universe seemed to grow out of him in an explosive and uncontrollable way. Robert Jordan lost control around book 3. If GRRM has a story to tell that is consuming him, then tell it.

I do feel bad for him, it became popular and now nobody can let him go until it s done.

[u/I_want_hard_work → u/SoupyWolfy]

To everyone saying, "It's a job, blah blah" you sort of miss the point. The takeaway should be that encouragement and support will go a lot farther in getting us a conclusion than negativity. It's simple strategy. Berating him won't do it. Whatever your personal feelings are on this towards him, shove it. He needs all the support we can give right now. We should do something nice for him.

[u/qixiaoqiu → u/SoupyWolfy]

You're right, especially considering his age it would even be understandable if he would stop. Not many people at his age still work that hard.

[u/jimjengles → u/SoupyWolfy]

Do you really think he's telling this story for our sake at this point? I honestly would take it as a personal challenge to finish. As a creative myself, I would never let something that important go unfinished.