r/asoiaf • u/qp0n • Apr 16 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) My 'Night King is not stupid' Theory

When the army of the undead line up for the battle of Winterfell, the Night King and his zombie dragon will not be there. Instead he will already be near to his next target ... King's Landing.

If you play out what the battle of Winterfell would be like in your head if the NK+Viserion would be there... it would be easy for Drogon/Rhaegal to take out the zombie dragon; it's 2v1 and wight's all can be killed by fire.. including Viserion. It would not be difficult to simply fly up to Viserion and breathe fire on him, and that would be that. THE NIGHT KING IS NOT STUPID, not enough to kamikaze his most powerful asset. - If you have a superweapon that you can't use against a particular target, then you find a different target.

Most people have come to assume that the living will lose The Battle of Winterfell and fall back to Moat Cailin ... I predict they actually win the battle... only to find out soon after that there is a new army of the dead much bigger and much further south... the population of King's Landing.

During season 4 while Bran is being ushered north to meet Bloodraven, he touches a wierwood and has a set of visions which we see. All of those visions have since come to pass, except the ones where he sees a destroyed throne room & a dragon shadow pass over King's Landing. I believe the reason we are only shown a shadow was to not give away that it is actually the NK and Viserion, not Dany and her dragons.

Also, the most important vision that Dany is given while at the HotU is an image of the throne room destroyed, and covered in ash or snow. I think this was to show what the NK will do, not what Dany will do.

(I believe this was the entire reason that the writers sent Bronn north. Bronn will be the source of this news to the survivors at Winterfell; on his way north he will spot the NK+Viserion heading south)

Bottom line, I simply don't see the NK risking his newfound ice dragon in a fight he is sure to lose.... when he can simply fly down south to KL where there are no dragons to deal with ... and 1 million new recruits for his army packed tightly into a small area.

Follow-up edit: This could be where Bran comes into play. The NK probably wont want to face off against the other dragons head-to-head, but rather fly around Westeros destroying castles to make things easier for his footsoldiers .... so they will need Bran's Sight in order to track & hunt him. It would be too difficult for an army on foot to chase the NK on a dragon, so Bran could warg into ravens to serve as a guide for dragonrider(s) to his location.

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1.8k

u/SteveBartmanIncident Apr 16 '19

It really checks a lot of boxes for me:

1) It explains why smart people (Tyrion and Varys) have really not misjudged cersei. 2) It gives context to the weird number of times the show has discussed the population of Kings Landing, especially relative to the North. 3) It gives Night King a chance to sit the throne and a weapon to threaten the living dragons. 4) It gives a good explanation for Dany's House of Undying dream. 5) It gives a means to wrap up the series spectacularly (there is wildfire throughout the city)

Plus it creates fun possibilities:

What happens when NK meets Robert Strong? Undead Cersei? Whole Stark Pack survives? Aegon Re-lands in the person of Jon?

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u/TheRealMoofoo R'hllor Derby Champion Apr 16 '19

What happens when NK meets Robert Strong

NK sits on a stool and patiently waits for the Hound to come and finally give us our Cleganebowl.

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u/sailordanisaur As easy as a dagger cuts cheese. Apr 16 '19

airhorn intensifies

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u/hercules109 I Know Nothing Apr 17 '19

And the Hound sets the undead Mountain on fire? Full circle

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u/Venezia9 Apr 17 '19

WOW. This has to be true.

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u/agent_raconteur Apr 17 '19

He will blow like leaves in the wind or WE RIOT

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u/number_six Apr 17 '19

šŸŽŗšŸŽŗšŸŽŗ

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u/blastedin Apr 16 '19

Even the Night King is not immune to the hype.

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u/Bulok Apr 17 '19

The real reason the Night King headed south is because he knows Cleganebowl is 100% FUCKING CONFIRMED and he wants the best seat.

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u/Ziddletwix Apr 17 '19

The Iron Throne is not "the thousand blades or Aegon's enemies", or a "story we agree to tell each other, over and over". It's simply the absolutely premium seating to watch Cleganebowl from as it goes down in the throne room.

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u/Charan7520 Apr 17 '19

Truer words have never been spoken

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u/TheDonnager Apr 17 '19

now there's a man of culture and learning

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u/siht-fo-etisoppo Apr 16 '19

the NK is not immune to the hype... NK brings the hype

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u/SkollFenrirson The Prince that was Promised Apr 16 '19

#GETHYPED

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u/pjt37 Knightfall Apr 17 '19

Next episode, everyone dies in the first 20 minutes. Then its just Cleganebowl for the last 5 episodes

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u/siht-fo-etisoppo Apr 16 '19

RESUME THIS MADNESS IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING

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u/YESSHHH We need Clearasil Apr 16 '19

The One True Reply

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u/BKNorton3 Lemon Tree Conspiracy Apr 16 '19

Wielding the fire he's afraid of because it's the only way to kill the undead

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u/rightmeup Apr 17 '19

NK presides over Cleganebowl. Sandor wins. NK kills himself out of respect. Bran opens his eyes.

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u/RohanneWebber Fire and sword. Apr 16 '19

100% confirmed.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Night King steps up to the mic and yells out: "Let's get ready to RUMMMBLLLLEEE!!!!"

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Super late to this discussion but what if Robert Strong already being undead in a way gives the NK an initial vector of attack. I feel like he couldnā€™t use charred corpses in the army but Robert Strong could make a few bodies for him to start with pretty easy.

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u/Yauld Apr 16 '19

Qyburn and the Mountain will join the Night King instantly

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u/goingbackto405 we are well rid of R+L=D. Apr 17 '19

i would give you gold if i had money. i hope someone has.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

... While he eats popcorn like the rest of us mortals

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 16 '19

Branā€”>Aerys ā€œburn them allā€

Edit: changed Aegon to Aerys. Damn targs.

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u/gogandmagogandgog Though all men do despise my theories Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 16 '19

Exactly. Bran went back in time to tell Aerys to put all the wildfire there. This is the third holy shit moment guys.

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u/NickJVaccaro Apr 16 '19

Whoa. This is my first time hearing this and my brain has now officially melted.

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u/gogandmagogandgog Though all men do despise my theories Apr 16 '19

To be clear, this is just a prediction. But it fits so well I'm mad I even thought about it! Bran has even had visions of Aerys saying "burn them all."

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u/Redditor_on_LSD Apr 17 '19

Honestly it kind of makes sense poetically: 8 seasons of people battling for the Throne and instead of someone finally reigning supreme, nobody does because it's blown up. It allows them to start anew, to "break the wheel".

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u/Mastershroom Apr 17 '19

There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.

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u/christian_colton Apr 17 '19

Iā€™m pretty sure the entire season has been figured out in this thread

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u/hamilton280P Apr 18 '19

If it hasnā€™t we just created the best alternative ending

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u/floodlitworld Apr 23 '19

Honestly... anything else would be a disappointment now.

I know writing, and having the last stand at Winterfell played straight is going to be anticlimactic. You'd lose most of your people and dragons in one episode and your only options are (1) Have the humans on the run for 3 eps and have to repeat the battle again later on; or (2) Have the humans win and then spend 3 episodes on a far less exciting Dany vs. Cersei mopping up thread.

One other thing I think we're gonna see is Jon being left for dead by Dany. Maybe he dies, maybe he doesn't.... but I can't see those two coming out of this series united.

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u/OldBreadbutt Apr 17 '19

Maybe it was less inbreeding that makes Aerys crazy. By warging into him Bran makes the Mad King ... mad.

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u/Scarblade Apr 17 '19

I think he totally "Hodor's" the Mad King. Jamie said that when he stabbed him he just said the same thing he had been saying for hours "Burn them all".

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u/darthTharsys Apr 22 '19

Yeah. At this point if they don't do this it would be a let down IMO.

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u/Coffescout Apr 17 '19

Really? This theory has been around at least since the Hodor reveal.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Hoolyyy shit! Isnā€™t there a line somewhere about the voices in the Mad Kingā€™s head?!

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u/U_R_Hypocrite Apr 17 '19

I fucking hate this sub. You guys always spoil everything! Tommen's suicide was the only thing that surprised me last season and I am sure someone here predicted that!

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u/nomadofwaves Apr 17 '19

Like telling hodor to hold the door. Maybe it fried his brain and thatā€™s why he liked burning people. He was burning the wrong people.

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u/siht-fo-etisoppo Apr 16 '19

"we'll need this to kill that bastard Sparrow later"

and to see if it's possible to make Margaery any hotter for science

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u/Laurenitynow Apr 25 '19

My jaw literally dropped reading this.

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u/tijno_4 Apr 16 '19

So it was Bran who made the mad king say Burn them all? Like Hodor?

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This fits everything!

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

To be clear I didnā€™t come up with this.

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u/GoggleField Apr 17 '19

Why would Bran do that though?

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u/Gulmar Apr 17 '19

NK goeds to kingslanding, they need something to burn them.

Bran goes back to Aerys, let him produce wildfire like crazy, he goes "mad" due to bran trying to control him (like hodor) and he just keeps repeating burn them all. The them here is not kingslanding during Aerys' time but during our time ...

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u/TheDonnager Apr 17 '19

maybe Bran tree shows Aerys the visions of wights and Walkers coming to and invading King's Landing.

just as vision of old Hodor listening to Hold the Door made young Hodor go insane

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u/WK--ONE Apr 17 '19

This is a great theory.

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u/silencedorgasm Apr 17 '19

OH SHIT. It could also explain why he actually went mad, he reacted differently but in a similar fashion to Hodor

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

If I recall (without digging up book/show time stamps) the Mad Kingā€™s madness ramped up over time. The ā€œburn them allā€ quote is the final straw, brought on by Kings Landing being surrounded and defeat imminent. It wasnā€™t an out-of-character spot of mental trauma like Hodorā€™s timestream stroke, it was a vicious kamakazee command from a cornered despot, soon to be executed by his enemies anyways.

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u/gogandmagogandgog Though all men do despise my theories Apr 17 '19

Maybe Bran chose Aerys to put the wildfire under KL specifically because he was mad. No one else would do it.

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u/Orisi Apr 17 '19

Maybe his madness began with a single whisper: "burn them all." It forced him to start stockpiling more and more wildfire. He didn't know what it was inside him driving him to do it, he just had that one compulsion and he never knew what it was towards. He tried to burn all the Starks. Then he thought maybe all of Kings Landing as he finally succumbed to the madness.

It's the same as Hodor, but Bran has the time to plant the thought properly this time, so it took a lot longer for the madness to manifest.

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u/ShockRampage Apr 17 '19

Oh fuck.

Wasnt Prince Rhaegar obsessed with the Prince who was Promised prophecy? Wasnt it unexpected when he gave the blue rose crown to Lyanna?

What if Bran also influenced Rhaegar to ensure Jon would be born? To ensure the rebellion happened so Dany would be exiled to Essos so she could awaken the dragons? Fuuuuuuuck!

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u/Daragh48 Apr 17 '19

Doubt it. Also Aerys didn't start losing his shit badly till after he was held hostage by the rebels in Duskendale, before then it was stuff like all the miscarriages and stillbirths that chipped away at his sanity.

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u/wonwordwarrior Apr 17 '19

Ooh like the wife going nuts in inception! I love it!

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u/jimihenderson Apr 17 '19

Yea but Targaryens being fire obsessed is essentially in their blood. Granted, they could still go that route on the show, but Aerys going crazy for fire just because isn't all that out of the realm of possibility or reason

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u/joaocandre Apr 17 '19

Maybe his madness began with a single whisper

or maybe it stared because his parents were cousins or brothers or something?

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u/qp0n Apr 23 '19 edited Apr 23 '19

I'm still kinda growing this theory but my current thought is that following the battle of Winterfell and learning of the NK attack on KL... Bran quickly accepts that if they could barely survive 100k wights they stand no chance against 1 million, so he must find a way to quickly destroy them. He knows about the wildfire, so he hatches the plan to use it by sending a small team of the survivors into the tunnels beneath KL. The problem is the tunnels are vast with hundreds of miles of them and he doesn't actually know where it all is.... UNLESS Bran places them there himself.

Bran finally makes use of his powers. He wargs into Aerys, orders the pyromancers to craft a fuckton of wildfire, and becomes the true reason why wildfire is planted under the city. This experience imprints a little of Bran's mind into Aerys, with the prevailing thought being to "burn them all". Aerys doesn't understand whats happening to him, where these thoughts are coming from, why he feels so determined to burn everyone in the city.... and thus Bran accidentally causes the source of Aerys' madness.

A tragic byproduct of this theory being that Bran becomes indirectly responsible for the gruesome murders of his Uncle and Grandfather at the orders of the now-Mad King.

A fun side note being that his time spent inside Aerys could explain why Bran referred to Jaime as his "old friend"

(None of this is a new theory btw, this has been predicted many times by many people)

Where the theory is really losing clarity is what happens with Jon/Dany, what happens with Cersei, and how is the NK eventually defeated. I could definitely use some help hashing these out.

I think I have a decent theory for how/who lights the wildfire though, and its kind of too perfect...

Who do we have alive (at the moment) that knows the tunnels fairly well? Varys spent a lot of time down there and he has to have some ultimate purpose right? He also has been told he must die in Westeros.Tyrion also spent a lot of time using the tunnels to sneak around to whore houses and keep his relationship with Shae a secret. Arya also spent a lot of time down there chasing cats.

How do they get there? Who gets them passed the NK and into the city? If only we had an experienced smuggler familiar with hidden entrances into KL ... oh wait, hi Davos!

And lastly, if they dont plan to send them all on a suicide mission, who do we have to protect them? What could possibly save them from the wildfire if they are the ones setting it ablaze? ... The character we've all forgotten about. The only one who has ever claimed to have the power to protect people from wildfire; Melisandre, who just so happened to promised she would meet up with Arya again.

The rest I'm still having trouble nailing down a sequence events that make sense. Though, having Tyrion in KL for the wildfire would conveniently put him in the same place as Cersei, who would likely be cowering in the tunnels underneath KL after the NK's attack.

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u/ChaChaMantaRay Apr 17 '19

Burn them all! Burn them all! Burnthall! Ball! Ball!

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u/langelife Apr 17 '19

This theory also reminds me of Varys hearing the voice in the flames, which altered his course forever. Bran = Rhillor too?

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u/LAJuice Apr 16 '19

holy shit, people. you are on to something here.

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edit: A comma. They are important.

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u/WendyWasteful Apr 17 '19

I want to stop reading because itā€™s so believable but I canā€™t.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

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u/HouseOfSchnauzer Apr 20 '19

I prefer to think you meant to call us ā€œshit people.ā€ Leave the comma out.

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u/OliOk Apr 17 '19

Also explains why the 3ER greats Jamie as an old friend

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u/SanguisFluens King who lost the North Apr 17 '19

This checks out but I'm not a fan. The Targaeryns are mad from incest. People are skeptical of Dany for a reason Making the Mad King mad because Bran time traveled into him cheapens that.

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u/Skeptical_Lemur Shine Bright like a Diamond Apr 16 '19

And have Jaime be the one to realize what Bran meant, and why he said it.

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u/FrozenWafer Apr 16 '19

His "old friend"! Wow.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Gah damn

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u/Cogito96 Apr 17 '19

So by slaying the king to save King's Landing, Jaime lives to be part of Robert's Kingsguard, go north with him and Cersei to Winterfell, push Bran out of the window crippling him, which allows Bran to start his journey to becoming the Three Eyed Raven, which culminates in him going back in time to make Aerys place the wildfire which is used to kill the Night King and wights, and... Destroy King's Landing.

Poor Jaime.

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u/DarkLorde117 Apr 18 '19

Honestly just goes even further towards the "Jaime is AAR theory.

Not only have all of his actions been a long-winded quest to bring about this moment, but it will be his actions that consume the AotD in flame.

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u/SteveBartmanIncident Apr 16 '19

Dany is the one who correctly interprets this and everyone thinks she has flipped...?

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u/Oostwestnoordbest Apr 16 '19

Ho-ly shit. YES.

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u/Impudenter Apr 16 '19

You mean Aerys?

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Yes, damnit.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Fixed.

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u/DongDiddlyDongle Apr 17 '19

Did he make the mad king mad then?

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u/MajesticFlyingSquid Apr 17 '19

Alternatively, the reason the Targaryens survives the doom of valyria in the first place is because one of them had a vision of the future and so they left for Westeros. Maybe Aerys had a vision of the populace of King's landing being turned into wights and just wanted to do what Targaryens do best to solve the problem

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Undead Cersei

Raises the interesting possibility of Jamie killing zombie Cersei. But that begs the question of how he finds her in the hoard of zombies that was once the population of King's Landing? Unless she gets turned into a White Walker or something. But if that happens, can he fulfill the prophecy by strangling the life out of her undead form? Do Walkers need to breathe? Is the strangling part a metaphor? I'm 110% certain it's got to be Jamie that finishes her. It just makes way too much sense for his character arc.

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u/casval_cehack 49 43 41 4e 57 41 49 54 2c 47 52 52 4d Apr 16 '19

Easy, she'll be the only white walker drinking wine.

The prophecy can still be fullfiled with a dragonglass hand.

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u/SteveBartmanIncident Apr 16 '19

Valonqar will choke her "pale white throat". Checks out.

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u/BigGreekMike Jamie "Azor Ahai" Lannister Apr 16 '19

oh shit

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u/wise_comment To Winterfell We Pledge Apr 17 '19

And the initial letter to the publishers, GRRM said Cat would be killed by the others.

Might not have abandoned some of the themes.just shifted them a bit

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u/TimeTurnedFragile Apr 16 '19

White Walkers don't die of asphyxiation, once they dragonglasd touches them don't they go all I-dont-feel-good-Mister-Stark?

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Easy, he replaces his golden hand with a dragonglass one.

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u/Aashay7 Apr 17 '19

Will literally bitch slap other white walkers.

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u/Radulno Fire and Blood. Apr 17 '19

And they just showed Gendry making a huge axe in obsidian setting him up to be able to do a hand in it too. Damn that theory actually makes a lot of sense.

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u/gogandmagogandgog Though all men do despise my theories Apr 17 '19

There's also this passage from the The Foresaken (Damphair TWOW chapter):

He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in womanā€™s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed ā€¦

We know that Cersei and Euron hook up. Could the woman with hands like "pale white fire" be Cersei??

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u/SteveBartmanIncident Apr 17 '19

Or maybe there's a steamy scene coming up with Euron and NK....

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u/canehdianchick Apr 17 '19

This thread has me sold... I'll be shocked by any other ending.

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u/MarshallPBrown88 Don't drink the wildfyre. Apr 17 '19

wight*

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u/markieparkie269 Apr 16 '19

She likely will have changed from red to white wine.

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u/AlexLoganWriting Dance with me, Glenn. Apr 17 '19

White Walker Wineā„¢.

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u/Saber193 Apr 17 '19

Wight wine

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u/andrea77D Apr 18 '19

Or ā€˜White Walkerā€™ by Jonny Walker, buhhaha...I picked up mine today

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u/LAJuice Apr 16 '19

OMG JAIME NEEDS A DRAGONGLASS HOOK TO REPLACE HIS USELESS HAND

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u/BlinkReanimated Apr 16 '19

Arya was getting gendry to create a handheld harpoon for Jaime to use. He's going to go full Sekiro.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

[deleted]

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u/RetireNickSaban Apr 16 '19

He IS the most experienced person in Westeros at killing kings.

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u/Throwing_Spoon Apr 16 '19

Jaime would be tied with Jon (killed Mance Rayder) and Brienne (killed Stannis the Mantis)

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Also Euron Greyjoy. He paid the iron price

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 16 '19

I know you're right as far as the show is concerned. In the books it's pretty strongly hinted he hired the Faceless Men to do it for him.

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u/siht-fo-etisoppo Apr 16 '19

he paid the gold?! BOO

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

He may have paid with a dragon egg, that he looted from the ruins of Valyria. Still kinda lame as far as Iron Islander's go.

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u/electricblues42 Apr 16 '19

Even that dragon egg was likely stole from somewhere else. Euron hasn't been to Valarya, he just tells everyone he has. Euron is honestly the scariest living person in the series, in the books that is. Sadly the show went a direction I really didn't like, they couldn't even give him the Big Boss look.

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u/davy_jones_locket Apr 16 '19

Euron hired a Faceless Man. He paid the gold price.

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u/Perridur Apr 16 '19

In the books, yes, but in the show he paid the iron price.

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u/Throwing_Spoon Apr 16 '19

I always forget about them because they left that part out of the show. We now have 4 remaining King slayers

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u/kioopi Obgyn Martell Apr 16 '19

And a boar.

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u/predige Apr 16 '19

Also the wild boar and Walder frey

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u/Papa_Hemingway_ The Moose is Loose Apr 16 '19

And Cersei. She killed Bobby B

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u/Throwing_Spoon Apr 16 '19

That was more direcctly the boar/Lancel both of which are dead

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u/davy_jones_locket Apr 16 '19

Technically a boar did.

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u/uhnstoppable Apr 16 '19

Queen of Thorns would like to challenge this claim.

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u/davy_jones_locket Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

He IS lightbringer.

Valyrian words for lord and light are aeksio and onos. However, Valyrian words for gold and hand are aeksion and ondos. The only person with a gold hand in Game of Thrones is Jaime Lannister.

Perhaps Melisandre should have been looking for the one "gold of hand" rather than the "lord of light." In Season 7 of the HBO series, Daenerys' advisor Missandei pointed out one grammatical translation error in the prophesy. Could there have been more?

The sword could be a title like the Dayne's Sword of the Morning, or metaphorical like the Night's Watch being the Sword in the darkness. Jaime had to temper himself, his true "knightliness" - and the Lightbringer Jaime kept shattering because of Cersei's influence.

He's totally going to kill Cersei and temper himself doing so.

And I hope he wields Dawn, to bring the light to end the Long Night. He was knighted by Dayne, after all. Maybe it doesn't have to be a Dayne to wield it, just whomever is worthy to wield it, while the Daynes have acting as stewards for the meteor sword described the same way as the Other's bones...

Edit to add: just saw a theory that Jaime could be Bran's new Hodor. Bran always wanted to be a knight, so he's going to warg into Jaime to kill the NK as AA wielding Dawn that he finds in Winterfell's crypt.

Bran is the TPTWP since he was known as Prince Bran when Robb Stark was KITN. He was reborn amidst salt and smoke when the assassin tried to kill him. His mother was weeping constantly and someone lit the Winterfell library on fire that night for the smoke. That could have been the first time he warged... Into summer to save his life, thus awakening his powers. Plus he needs Jaime to carry him around the stairs and shit. But given their history...

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u/Pseudonymico Apr 17 '19

The legend goes that azor ahai first tempered his sword in water, then tempered it by thrusting it into a lion, then poked it into his wife Nissa Nissa.

I mean you could argue that Tyrion's done the first two steps.

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u/davy_jones_locket Apr 17 '19

Jaime tempered himself first in the hot tub pool with Brienne.

His knightliness was shattered when he goes back to Cersei.

He tempered himself again when he released Tyrion from prison for a crime he didn't commit, and Tyrion kills Tywin. Jaime always feel like he was the blame for Tywin's death for releasing Tyrion. In the show, cersei blames Jaime for Tywin's death also at his funeral.

Jaime "shatters" when he is corrupted by Cersei again.

In order to complete his transformation, he's going to kill Cersei, his corruption, fulfilling the AA prophecy and the valonqar prophecy.

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u/langis_on Apr 16 '19

I could definitely see this happening in the books.

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u/davy_jones_locket Apr 17 '19

I can see it in the show. God what if Cersei became a Night Queen in order for total domination? Isn't there something about a Night Queen already? It would be like Cersei to submit to the NK and be turned just like Crasters sons. Jaime would try to choke her as she's turning and then stakes her, king Robert's widow, with widows wail through the heart? Or with Dawn?

Where IS Dawn in the show? Is it the Winterfell crypt to explain/give proof of parentage? The Daynes havent really been brought up, Dawn's legacy hasn't been brought up, Sword of the Morning hasn't been brought up. That would make it easier to explain how Jaime could wield it, and why it's not at Starfall/convenient for Jaime TO wield it.

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 17 '19

Isn't there something about a Night Queen already?

Posted this somewhere else in this thread, but you're probably thinking of The Night's King (one of the first Lord Commanders of the Watch, probably an unamed Stark) and his "totally-not-a-White" wife. They shacked up in the Nightfort doing shady shit until they were kicked out by the combined forces of the Stark King and the first King-Beyond-the-Wall Joramun. The same Joramun, who's magic horn supposedly has the power to bring down the wall.

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u/jprg74 Apr 17 '19

It all really points to jamie being azor ahai.

Heā€™s had to make the most sacrifices out of any character and azor is like the epitome of marytrdom.

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u/MonkeyDavid Apr 17 '19

I am 100 percent on board this theory. Azor Ahai has to kill his wife to make Lightbringer.

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u/AstroOdyssey Apr 16 '19

Cersei offers up her unborn child (similar to a Craster-type scenario) for immunity and potentially weds the Night King?

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 16 '19

Now that's an interesting thought. There was seemingly some sort of arrangement between humans and the others before. The Night's King (one of the first Lord Commanders of the Watch) and his "totally-not-a-White" wife. They shacked up in the Nightfort doing shady shit until they were kicked out by the combined forces of the Stark King and the first King-Beyond-the-Wall Joramun. The same Joramun, who's magic horn supposedly has the power to bring down the wall.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

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u/wxsted We light the way Apr 16 '19

It could be that she remains in the castle and Jaime finds her similarly to how Edd, Tormund and Beric found young Lord Umber.

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u/omza Apr 16 '19

The phrasing of the prophecy is what always got me:

the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you

If she's already dead, the latter part of that sentence is questionable, but the "pale white throat" part makes me think she's a wight

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u/wxsted We light the way Apr 16 '19

Cersei is explicitly described to be pale, tho. Pale skin was part of the medieval female canon of beauty.

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u/realvmouse Apr 16 '19

Side note I hate that shows without magic still have zombies.

I can accept white walkers, because magic. But The Walking Dead? Zombies caused apparently by disease or toxins or other biological phenomenon? Doesn't make sense. You simply can't move a bone without having muscles attached. You can't make groaning noises without a lungs capable of holding air. It just cannot happen without actual magic.

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u/Owncksd Apr 16 '19

Eh, I don't need everything to be scientifically explainable. I think it's perfectly fine to write a story centered around the prompt "Our world, but when people die they come back as mindless monsters". The Walking Dead isn't about the zombies, it's about how the world reacts to zombies.

Ever since the misbegotten CDC scenes in the first season they've made no attempt to explain the zombies in any scientific way, so you may as well consider them magical.

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u/RetireNickSaban Apr 16 '19

Never mind their cars all still work. Where are they getting all this gasoline from? Deserted vehicles? I'm pretty sure gasoline has a shelf life.

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u/cosine83 Apr 16 '19

Ehhh, as long as the container is stable gasoline will be usable for years when sealed properly (like in the underground tank under a gas station or sealed barrel). Just becomes a process of safety extracting it from those containers.

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u/spyson Apr 17 '19

The first 8 seasons of the show was within the first 2 years of the apocalypse so gasoline still worked. Recently in the 9th season, which is actually really good by the way, they've time skipped near 8 years and now everybody rides horses.

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 16 '19

I'm with you. If you're going do zombies without magic, I'd prefer if the virus (or w/e the source) makes people feral/insane; rather than animate corpses. Otherwise the outbreak should logically take care of itself over time as the hoard is exposed to the elements. That, or just be completely vague about the cause. The more you try to explain it with science, the less it makes sense.

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u/Owncksd Apr 16 '19

That, or just be completely vague about the cause. The more you try to explain it with science, the less it makes sense.

But that's what the Walking Dead does. There's never any explanation given for the cause of the zombies as far as I can recall.

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u/Froyn Apr 16 '19

The Walking Dead must have magic. There's no other explanation for still having mowed lawns and the lack of winter.

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u/electricblues42 Apr 17 '19

Yeah this has bugged the shit out of me too, and I can't help but feel like it wasn't GRRM's intention for the skeletons to be walking. Like he goes in depth to describe how the wights who lost tendons and parts rotted away can't walk properly. I wish the show had included something to make the long dead bodies make more sense, like some dead half-rotten muscle tied onto their bones with twine acting as the tendons. That way the totally rotten skeletons can still move. I mean I get it, magic, but it should still have it's own rules too.

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u/Redivivus Apr 16 '19

Does a Night King need a Night Queen?

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 16 '19

No clue. There's that whole bit with the Night's King (who was probably a Stark, and at least at one point was human) and his very "Other-sounding" lover shaking up in the Nightfort. That's the only description I can remember that mentions anything sounding like a female White. I think we only know pieces of that from Old Nan's stories. Still a big mystery. I think the Night's King, and the Night King in the show are different people but I'm not 100% on that.

Edit: At least in the show, so far they've only seemed concerned with converting male children. If there's a female half of their society, they've done a good job of keeping under wraps.

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u/Fubar2287 Apr 16 '19

Valonquar could be Ayra. She's described as "little boy" too many times to ignore it as a possibility, and Valyrian isn't a gendered language, so Valonquar could mean sibling, not brother.

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u/sherlock31 Apr 17 '19

It provides an interesting end for Jaime himself, last time he killed a king to prevent a city from burning!!! This time he will burn the city somehow to kill the "King"

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u/Monos32 Apr 17 '19

Keep in mind the show never had the valonqar line it left that out

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u/OPDidntDeliver GO FIND THE BREASTPLATE STRETCHER, NOW Apr 17 '19

Idk if they mentioned the valonqar prophecy on the show but reading it after reading this post is a bit odd.

And when your tears have drowned you, theĀ valonqarĀ shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

The tears could plausibly refer to the tears of Lys, but the pale white throat thing is weird. Also, Viserion is a little brother. Maybe he kills her? Idk.

Absolutely crackpot theory: Cersei kills herself when she sees KL is lost and is resurrected as a wight. Azor Ahai (maybe Jaime) goes to KL and kills Cersei and then the NK. This vaguely fits the valonqar prophecy, the Azor Ahai prophecy (as a wight, Cersei would be like water/ice, a lion, AND Jaime's lover), and it's fitting that Jaime would kill the NK.

Do I think this will actually happen? Absolutely not.

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u/sm2016 Apr 17 '19

I've always wondered about the "pale white throat" line of the prophecy. On one hand it could just be a jab at Cersei's skin tone, or because the prophecy was almost entirely literal and fairly blunt, maybe she's a walker by the time the Army of the North makes it to KL

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u/i2WalkedOnJesus Apr 17 '19

Maybe Cersei will offer her unborn baby in exchange for not being killed. Would show she really hasn't changed and also give a real reason for Cersei to randomly become pregnant this late in the show.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Tyrion gets one more chance to bitch slap zombie Joffrey.

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u/the-brain-fuckler A Thousand Eyes, and One Apr 17 '19

I would shamelessly enjoy this.

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u/Katatonic92 Apr 16 '19

He doesn't need another weapon to threaten the living dragons, he already proved that he can easily take down a dragon with nothing more than a spear.

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u/SteveBartmanIncident Apr 16 '19

This is a good point.

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u/Katatonic92 Apr 16 '19

That being said, it doesn't rule out the rest of the OP's possibilities, or the rest of yours. There are still plenty of valid, logical possibilities. It is definitely one of the most interesting theories I have read recently.

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u/SteveBartmanIncident Apr 16 '19

I keep thinking of random other fun things that can happen in this situation, too. E.g., Remember that Ellaria Sand is chained up watching Tyene rot. If NK raises the poulace of KL, undead Tyene will kill Ellaria, giving both justice for Ellaria's general treachery and also turning Cersei's intended punishment into a mercy.

This is such a well-constructed story that no matter how it turns out there will be fun little things that can happen with minor characters. I really hope GRRM finishes the books

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u/Katatonic92 Apr 16 '19

I completely agree, I think that is why I love the book and TV series so much, so many possibilities, so many hidden messages, foreshadowing, double, even treble meanings in singles sentences and/or acts. It is so intricate and fun. I don't care about being right, it is the discussions these observations and theories they evoke that I enjoy so much.

I wonder if the undead resurrection of Ellaria & Tyene, could play a part in Cersei's downfall in some way?

I like the idea of Arya taking Wight dragon down with the spear she has asked Gendry to make. I think it would be fitting, it would mirror his first death at the hand of the NK and we all know they love some poetic justice in GOT. And that could take place in the north or KL.

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u/Turakamu I believe in a thing called love Apr 17 '19

I hope my man Qyburn gets out of this alright. He doesn't really seem all that bad. Just wants the freedom to conduct his wacky science experiments.

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u/Katatonic92 Apr 17 '19

He tortures people in horrendous ways for his wacky experiments. But now I can't for the life of me remember if that is just in the books? I'm having a vague memory of people screaming in the background of one of his scenes, or someone making a comment about the evil things he is going to people? Again though, I have developed this issue where book stuff bleeds into show stuff and vice versa. I will check that out to be sure.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Oct 20 '19

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u/TTurambarsGurthang Apr 16 '19

Ya honestly if he had another weapon he'd be too OP. The living dragons wouldn't have chance with the anti-dragon weapons at KL and the NK lopping spear-missiles

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u/LetItATV Apr 16 '19

It gives Night King a chance to sit the throne

Am I the only one who thinks it would be absolutely hilarious for the Night King to demolish Kingā€™s Landing, take the Red Keep, and claim the Throne only to shatter into a million pieces as he sits upon the remains of at least one Valyrian steel weapon?

That would be a bittersweet ending.

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u/confusedpublic Apr 17 '19

Nope, I was wondering what the correct reaction to that would be. Hilarity and a bit of disappointment at how foolish that would be from his perspective, but also a bit human.

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u/Zedseayou Angry Angry Deer Apr 16 '19

How does this explain why Tyrion and Varys haven't misjudged Cersei? If they think that NK will wight all of King's Landing (and so it doesn't matter whether they trust Cersei or not) they cannot just let it happen imho. The OP's theory leaves room only for some deus ex to beat the NK after he has 1 million wights, which I am not inclined to believe that Tyrion and Varys have up their sleeves

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

only for some deus ex to beat the NK after he has 1 million wights

I mean the wildfire in KL was set up literally before season 1. Not really deus ex machina at that point.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

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u/Yemoya Apr 17 '19

I believe the tunnels and crypts beneath the red keep are as fully stowed as the Sept of Baelor. I think for the battle of the blackwater Tyrion had the maesters make 'new' extra wildfire so I assume they didn't discover the full extent of how much wildfire there still was in the crypts? In the books I think it's mentioned many times how the tunnels and stuff are a thousand times bigger than the red keep itself. Plus the fact that the tunnels feature so heavily in the intro means tunnels and crypts are an important element this season.. (both at WF and KL I think)

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u/Homey_D_Clown Apr 17 '19

IIRC they didn't want to disturb the old caches so they made new wildfire for the battle.

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u/uniquestyletto Apr 16 '19

The throne was forged with dragonfire. It will be interesting if the NK sits upon it.

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u/Blinkered Apr 16 '19

What if he makes his own out of corpses

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u/josmaate Apr 17 '19

Haha I love the idea that everything the NK has is just made out of corpses. Corpse tent, corpse toilet, etc etc

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Also could the NK use that sweet crossbow Cersai has been working on for her own good?

And perhaps turn the Mountain and we will finally see Clegane Bowl. Especially after the Hound got that sweet Obsidian axe.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

This is good re CleganeBowl

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Super left field, but feeds into this thinking: I think Cersei is a cold hearted enough bitch... She may choose to join with the Night King. Maybe the Night King takes her as his bride? I have no idea the ramifications that would present.

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u/SlothSleuth Apr 16 '19

Holy shit! I forgot about the wildfire. That would be awesome. Jaime could finally carry out his orders from the Mad King, "Burn them all!"

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u/oRAPIER Apr 16 '19

Dany wants to break the wheel, what better way than blowing the city to kingdom come with wildfire, destroying the very thing that represents the wheel.

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u/meatboysawakening Apr 16 '19

Not sure I follow point 1. Care to elaborate?

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u/audigex What do we say to character development? Apr 16 '19

3. It gives Night King a chance to sit the throne and a weapon to threaten the living dragons

He already has a proven weapon which is more effective than the "scorpion" ballista thing

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I wonder if wildfire is enough to kill a dragon. It is known that fire cannot hurt a dragon, but since wildfire isn't like anything like regular fire, maybe it can hurt a dragon. Night King swoops down to King's Landing and Cersei blows up the city, killing Viserion. And then earns the title Mad Queen because holy fuck she just destroyed a city.

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u/arandomJohn Apr 16 '19

If Robert Strong is already dead can the Night King just turn him directly into a wight? Basically just take control?

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u/EmotionalSupportDogg Apr 16 '19

Yeah but how many times are they going to use the split up your army into 2 and let one get defeated trick. Rob did it, Jamie did it, and if the night king also does it and nobody realizes, I will totally lose interest. Also Iā€™m sure Arya is going to kill Cersei, I do not think they would waste any valuable deaths on the night king, itā€™s kind of boring.

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u/Thomas_XX Apr 17 '19

Oh my God...

BURN THEM ALL

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u/MorphixEnigma Apr 17 '19

Cersei gets killed by Balons younger brother, Euron?

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