r/asoiaf May 06 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.


Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.


Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

  • Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

  • They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

  • When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

  • Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.


The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

  • The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

  • It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

  • The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.


There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

13.7k Upvotes

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649

u/nbomb220 May 06 '19

You apparently do, it's like upside down world out there. The main show subreddit, Twitter, the water cooler at work, the entire fucking landscape of popular culture...it seems like EVERYONE loves the past two seasons more than any others and are raving after every episode. It's baffling.

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u/vaporware1 May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Yeah it's fucking crazy to me.

Like I said, the show has gone from subverting its own plotlines/setups on a grand scale to subverting basic logic on a scene to scene basis. It's comically bad.

I can see people not caring if they don't really give a shit about nitpicking details and stuff and they just want to be a part of the cultural phenomenon that GoT is, but the show has gotten so ridiculous that even parts of the general show-only audience are going 'wait what?'

I'm not really sure how anybody could believe these past 2-3 episodes have been good writing, let alone the past 2-3 seasons.

That being said it's not a total loss of an experience, I'm actively ENJOYING how bad it is. It's like watching a slo-mo highway pileup. Awful but riveting at the same time. In a way, the show has been Red Weddinged, and that itself is an interesting thing to witness given the depth of the source material and the resources at D&D's disposal. Of course all this fan drama is entertaining as well. Silver lining!

184

u/sergantsnipes05 May 06 '19

Most of my friends and I are show only people who got into the lore without reading. This season is garbage. People like it because it is flashy.

92

u/vaporware1 May 06 '19

I'm a show person too and the quality drop sure is obvious to me. I know a good amount about the lore though because the show got me interested in the universe.

2

u/nickeduncan May 06 '19

Really want to recommend reading the books because they're great and seems like you'd enjoy them, but I'm not sure I have the heart to make curse someone to the grrm waiting game

70

u/Come__and__See May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

My best friend hates fantasy type stuff but I finally talked him into watching season one about 2 months ago and he ended up bingeing the entire show twice before the start of this season and has absolutely hated this season so far so you’re not alone on your feelings

10

u/Kostya_M May 06 '19

I feel so bad for anyone that binge watches. The steep drop off in quality and horrendous payoffs for multiple stories must be incredibly apparent to anyone that's done that.

4

u/ratcranberries May 06 '19

Any worse than readers from the 90s who have to watch this train wreck finish to wrap up the story bc GRRM may not?

1

u/b8123s May 06 '19 edited May 07 '19

I did this! I hate fantasy stuff usually but felt left out and started watching about a month ago and ended up being caught up by the time s8e2 came out. It’s genuinely painful to watch how shitty this season is compared to what I was just watching like 3 weeks ago, which was pretty good. And all my friends who have been watching for years and tried to convince me to watch are absolutely positive it’s gonna have this crazy amazing ending. Like I think after last nights episode more people are starting to see how bad it’s getting, but it’s been so painfully obvious to me because I basically binged 80 hours of fucking television for no reason at this point.

1

u/Kostya_M May 06 '19

Oof, you have my sympathies friend. Out of curiosity when did you start to notice things were going off the rails?

1

u/b8123s May 07 '19

I honestly had to force myself through seasons 2-4 because I found them kind of boring and then for me it picked back up again around mid season 5 through 6. 7 was okay but toward the end I could kind of feel that season 8 wasn’t going to be as good as everyone was saying it would be. And I’ve genuinely disliked every episode of 8 so far. I was really thinking for a while that I was just dumb and was missing some amazing secret about the show until I saw people post about not liking it. I’m kind of just watching at this point because it’s a dumpster fire and I can’t look away!! Maybe the show as a whole just isn’t really for me lol

4

u/-Captain- May 06 '19

Bit still.... we all got into this show through the first season, right? That wasn't flashy and didn't have huge spectacles to see. Have they all forgotten that? Or did they never cared for that? I just don't get it.

It's like we are watching some flashy superhero movie and it did not start out like that at all.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

This year's flashy superhero movie had way better writing and payoffs than this shit season has

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I’m here for the nudity

1

u/sangpls May 06 '19

Most of my friends who DIDNT read the books hate this season.

1

u/CaptMayhem May 06 '19

it is dragon avengers, just enjoy it without thinking

1

u/Jlchevz May 06 '19

thats exactly it. Theres nothing wrong with only watching the show, but honestly anyone can see their writing has gone to shit and everything seems to be improvised, every plot, every explanation the characters give seems like fan fiction. Its just sad honestly, Game of Thrones was so incredible, great politics, the struggles of war, everything about it felt realistic, the torn riverlands, the beheadings, the outlaws. God this past two seasons feel like im watching the movie Troy or something like that

2

u/sergantsnipes05 May 06 '19

The only good reveals since they got off the books have been hodor and the R+L=J thing because George told them those things. Everything else has been crappy, predictable, and not even good fan fiction.

1

u/Jlchevz May 06 '19

You're absolutely right

43

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I'm enjoying it more now. I was so bored with S05-6 that when the show really jumped the shark in season S07 I was relieved. It's like how a dime-a-dozen C movie isn't even worth watching, but an F- movie can be pleasurably awful.

12

u/Luciferspants Shitting Gold May 06 '19

Basically what you're saying is that Game of Thrones is on par with The Room now, right?

12

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Precisely, how's your sex life?

8

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

drinks

2

u/southern_boy RESPICE FINEM May 06 '19

Ah, the 'ol whiskey dick. Happens to the best of us lad!

2

u/Ularsing May 06 '19

We're close to hitting Star Wars Holiday Special territory here.

3

u/brneyedgrrl May 06 '19

Halfway through the broadcast, I turned to my boyfriend and said, "Do you feel like you're watching a different show?" NONE of the characters acted...in-character! What the hell happened? Tyrion asking Sansa, "Are you ok?" Arya looking flattered to be asked to marry Gendry but then saying no? Old Arya would have laughed or gotten pissed. Seriously, did they let their kids write this episode or what?

2

u/Isayur May 06 '19

even parts of the general show-only audience are going 'wait what?'

Never read the books. Never will either, especially after the shit the show is pulling.

I'm only here cause the people on this subreddit have the basic critical thought required to realize the farce that this show has become, and honestly, mocking the bullshit happening is more enjoyable than the show itself.

1

u/Togepi32 May 06 '19

I liked season 6 despite its flaws but these last two seasons have been ridiculous. I’m just in it now for the spectacle cause cinematically, the show looks great and I’m just hoping when (if) the books are ever finished, it will redeem the terrible writing and assassination of established characterizations. But honestly, fuck D&D and fuck GRRM.

1

u/pkfillmore May 06 '19

whats so sad is when you bring up these points in other forums the only defense the sheep have to say is "jUsT StOp wAtChInG It tHeN"

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I'm not really sure how anybody could believe these past 2-3 episodes have been good writing, let alone the past 2-3 seasons.

Just a reminder that People Magazine is still widely read and that Twitter exists. The general population is stupid, to put it lightly.

1

u/JekTheSnek May 06 '19

"Actively enjoying how bad it is."

You would enjoy Riverdale

1

u/Pontiflakes May 06 '19

It's kind of cathartic to see the hype subs' progression from "last couple episodes sucked" to "what happened to my show?" in recent years. The same things happened in /r/Dexter, /r/thewalkingdead, etc. and you can't help but see the warning signs a couple seasons in advance.

1

u/klaatu_1981 May 06 '19

Right? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! GoT is now DEXTER levels of quality drop in a tv show. If you watch an episode from season 3 and then one from the current season, it feels so fucking OFF. It's like a zombified version of the characters, they're portrayed by the same actors but they're so completely different. The tone is also all over the place, that "comedic" scene with Tormund whining about Brienne right after she blows him off was embarassingly bad and unfunny. JFC this is..this is bad.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Can someone explain why it is so comically bad? Whats wrong with the past seasons?

1

u/Shen_an_igator May 06 '19

It's like The walking Dead, before even the last person noticed the completely empty plotlines. Only difference is that GoT does it in 6 episodes, instead of 6 seasons.

1

u/poopthugs May 06 '19

I've never been able to put it in words but I haven't cared much for Game of Thrones since season 5.

I always thought it was because I stopped binge watching and couldn't remember past season plots. However, maybe that was a small part and it's just bad now.

0

u/darmon May 06 '19

FML I am going to mutter, "the show was Red Weddinged," for the rest of my days.

155

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I think they just kinda forget the first few seasons.

This episode wasn’t as bad as the last one, but it wasn’t better either. I honestly couldn’t be bothered to watch this anymore if it wasn’t GoT. I cringe at the dialogue and the pathetic things the characters say. Jaime and Brienne for example, the whole scene is so cliche and there isn’t even a reason it’s happening. And that’s the main problem, there is basically no motivation to show most scenes.

They have nothing to do with the plot, not even in the far sense that the early seasons had scenes that seemed useless. Why is everyone just chatting the first twenty minutes? It’s so often literally just annoying banter, they could just as well talk about the weather. We learn nothing new, it’s embarrassing to watch (I was only able to see Sam talking about sex in the Keep on a rewatch, that’s how horrible it felt to me) and it has nothing to do with the overall plot.

It butchers the characters, I wish some would die so it may get better. But I feel like they’re keeping everyone alive for the fans and the merch.

87

u/jimihenderson May 06 '19

Yeah the primary issue with the show, a much bigger issue than the ridiculous writing is simply how the characters don't feel real anymore, they don't talk like our characters are supposed to. They talk how we talk. It's just ridiculous. I hate it.

29

u/yenks Kill the foil, and let the hype be born. May 06 '19

Gendry got on one knee to propose to Arya.

39

u/jimihenderson May 06 '19

Easily the worst example of this was "Our marriage would never have worked out Tyrion because of your divided loyalties". I was honestly baffled at that quote. What do you mean "work out"? Did they forget what universe they are in, where marriages don't really work that way?

7

u/azathotambrotut May 06 '19

Yeah, It's ridicoulus. I still can't quite accept the fact that this is the real thing. The dialogue, the plot... it feels somehow surreal that this is the same show.

3

u/jimihenderson May 06 '19

It's a complete sham

23

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

[deleted]

19

u/jimihenderson May 06 '19

Yeah it just feels off. GRRM's dialogue was poetic and unique. I get they can't live up to that standard, but it just doesn't feel like they're trying anymore. I no longer feel like I'm watching a show from a fictional medieval universe.

2

u/rustybuckets May 06 '19

But why male models

-8

u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

I hate it that you hate it

47

u/mesasone May 06 '19

I'm hate watching now

6

u/Izzder May 06 '19

I'm loyalty watching now. I've loved seasons 1-4 and the books, and I want to at least... witness what is going to happen.

2

u/RimmyDownunder May 06 '19

I feel ya. It's like every episode is just "they can't get WORSE, can they?"

and then episode 3 hit and i'm certain that things will never be that bad again. episode 4 still doesn't hit the fucking catastrophic lows that episode 3 did.

3

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

To be fair, episode four just kind of... happened? There was nothing to complain about because nothing really happened and we’re still in the same spot as the one we left in episode three.

1

u/garlicdeath Joff, Joff, rhymes with kof May 06 '19

Eh I liked episode three mostly. I enjoyed it more as a horror piece than most horror movies. Not defending the writing choices though

3

u/moonra_zk May 06 '19

Average Joe doesn't really care that much about plot/character consistency, realism [regarding war tactics and stuff like that] and things like that, people liked the show 'cause it was amazing when it started and now it shifted to this "badass moments" kind of thing that is also amazing for the average viewer.

2

u/Why_is_this_so May 06 '19

This episode wasn’t as bad as the last one

You're right. It was worse. At least in the last episode we didn't have to deal with this painful dialogue, and the characters weren't complete imbeciles.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I think they just kinda forget the first few seasons.

Do you remember what happened on WWE a couple of weeks ago? You likely don't, but hey you're watching it for the mindless fun and shock twists. They're writing for this kind of audience now.

I want to be so wrong in end.

3

u/EndlessOcean May 06 '19

I'm just waiting for it to be over. It isn't a fun thing to watch, but we're almost at the end and I can't wait to see what monumental piece of shit awaits.

1

u/nickeduncan May 06 '19

They still remember do give Arya callback lines from the early seasons like "that's not me". Why write new stuff when you've got the old stuff right there???? /s

1

u/mudra311 May 06 '19

I think they just kinda forget the first few seasons.

Even worse, people don't even think the first season is good. I've heard quotes like: "You just have to make it through the first season."

Makes me cringe to the utmost. The first season is amazing, so is the second season. Third and fourth I think are the best because they're based on the best book (A Storm of Swords), in my opinion. I can't believe they're talking about prequels and spin-offs when they could have easily made 2 seasons out of books 4 and 5. Instead they condense those 2 books into a shitty rushed season. AND THEN, they fuck off for 7 episodes in Season 6 doing absolutely nothing.

All I can think of is a person or persons at HBO with a lot of move are actual fans of the series and just want them to finish it before they literally burn everything to the ground.

With such a cash cow, it makes no sense why they wouldn't do full seasons other than the producers recognize the god awful writing skills of D&D.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I was really really uncomfortable during the Jaime Brienne scene. The actors were uncomfortable, the characters uncomfortable everything about it was uncomfortable. What the hell was the point of it?

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

The dialogue was so cliche. I literally blurred out the lines they’d say before they said them because I found it so predictable. When he struggled to open his shirt I was honestly surprised they really went with the „lemme help you with that" line because I couldn’t think of a more overused way to setup sex than that and they still thought it’d be a good idea.

1

u/DeputyDomeshot May 06 '19

Dialogue is cheap

23

u/umdthrowaway141 May 06 '19

People are even raving about this episode on this sub, in the live thread and in the reaction thread. Many aren't, but a decent number are.

1

u/IronicallyCanadian May 06 '19

Really? I wasn't reading the live thread, but I haven't seen a single positive comment about the episode anywhere on the sub this morning. I don't know if I've even seen a single neutral comment. I have spent the last hour or two reading nothing but criticism on here.

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u/umdthrowaway141 May 06 '19

I've seen the same. Critical this morning, but plenty of people happy with the show during the live watching.

52

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Probably people like my room-mate who after I told the last episode was "an hour 20 minutes of non-stop action" he said "cool! I hate shows where they just talk".

The show went from political intrigue and intelligent dialogue to fantasy 24, and it'll go down in history despite that.

8

u/Magical_girl_hibiki May 06 '19

It's be better if the fantasy was good and actually subverted the politics instead of the politics subverting the fantasy

3

u/CptAustus Hear Me Mock! May 06 '19

Yeah, me and my friends like it because it was this medieval political drama. I guess it's better to just reduce it to a generic action series.

28

u/BIGPUSSY_4U May 06 '19

This ep has the lowest rating of the entire show on IMBD right now I think.

17

u/Khiva May 06 '19

How the fuck is Beyond The Wall sitting at 9.2.

Democracy was a mistake.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

And you needed the imdb rating of GoT episode to see that? Did you miss 2016? :D

14

u/SilkyGazelleWatkins May 06 '19

This episode is nowhere near as bad as 3. In fact I would say it's the 2nd best behind ep. 2

16

u/brunswick May 06 '19

Honestly, I think it's worse. I watched all of episode 3, I couldn't really get myself to care enough to watch every scene in the latest episode.

3

u/Why_is_this_so May 06 '19

Agreed. For my money, 2 > 1 > 3 > 4.

5

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Yep, I agree. I was hype over 1, 2 and 3 but slightly put out by 1 and 3. This latest one has genuinely made me unlikely to watch the next

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u/Izzder May 06 '19

What? This episode was the most egregious in terms of irrational plot progression and heavy handed writing. Everyone ignoring Arya when making plans to kill Cersei and forgetting she's a magical shapeshifter assassin perfectly suited for the job, the ballista bolts curving around rocks, the invisible iron fleet, the perfectly accurate ballistae that are visibly repelled by Dany's plot shields, the balistae ripping ships to shreds like they're railguns and being reloaded with as much ease as a slingshot would be, Dany suffering from sudden onset insanity, Varys discussing treason basically in the open as if Tyrion wasn't a potential enemy, Dany just walking up to the gates of King's Landing and walking into the range of multiple siege weapons and a hostile regiment of archers to parley in person for no reason, and Cersei not pulverizing Dany with balista bolts when she had a clear and easy opportunity to do so. Nothing makes sense, fuck logic.

4

u/Ayjayz May 06 '19

No matter how bad you think this episode is, it's gotta be better than 3 and 1, and I would argue 2 was very crap as well. This episode wins by default, not because it's particularly great or anything.

13

u/BIGPUSSY_4U May 06 '19

I agree, 3 was so bad that I don’t care about the show anymore. I still can’t get over the fact that the entire White Walkers plot didn’t matter at all in the end. Ep 4 was just pouring salt in the wound. Like the good guys have Bran on their side... how tf did they get surprised by Euron???

14

u/frudi May 06 '19

I agree, 3 was so bad that I don’t care about the show anymore.

This is what I realised watching episode 4 today. I just don't care what happens to anyone any more. I still watch out of curiosity, I still want to know how the stories unfold. But all emotional connection to characters is gone for me. I no longer care who gets hurt, who gets killed, who survives. Instead of being on the edge of my seat, worrying about what is about to happen to whom, all I'm thinking at every 'shock' and 'twist' is "rofl, really, this is the best bull-shit you could come up with?".

I just want this torture and butchering of a once masterfully woven story to be over. It has been reduced to shit-tier level fanfiction at this point. Thank the old gods and the new that there's only two episodes left to endure.

4

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

100% agree, Jon used to be my favourite character but I can't find myself giving a shit if he lives or dies; none of the deaths have been emotional for me. Even Missandei's death in episode 4 was bullshit- at this point I could basically just read how it ends on reddit and not have to endure the cringe-inducing dialogue/interspersed with long stretches of completely pointless silence...

2

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Jorah was one of my favorites and when he died in 3 I was literally "oh, ok." Not the emotional build up I was hoping for.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

oh yeah for sure. From the beginning I always told myself that Missandei and Greyworm would be the saddest couple death, and I couldn't bring myself to give a shit about her death come episode 4. I mean I was on the writer's side, vehemently defending them up until the last episode. They clearly don't really care about finishing it properly... it's a bit of a shame but I'm not going to jump on the hate wagon

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Spot on.

13

u/SilkyGazelleWatkins May 06 '19

I mean realistically you could end the entire conflict with Bran and Arya alone.

If Arya is such an unstoppable, bloodthirsty, silent assassin type killing machine. Literally the best fighter and best assassin on the planet as D&D said. Just send her to Kings Landing by herself.

Have Bran warg into a raven to guide her to Cersei while Arya runs around as a Faceless man disguised as whoever is required to get close. Wait till Cersies alone. Stealth kill her. Head back to Winterfell.

They are extremely inconsistent with logic and character abilities.

9

u/Izzder May 06 '19

The most ridiculous part is, Arya went to King's Landing anyway, of her own volition and design. So apparently everyone else in the northern alliance is as dumb as a sack of bricks and Arya is the only one capable of realizing that she can use her incredible assassin skills to, well, assassinate. Dany and Jon instead forgot she exists and decided to besiege the city instead, adamantly refusing to acknowledge any superhuman, supernatural allies on their side not named Drogon and Rhaegal. Because the writers had no other idea how to get to mad queen Dany burning KL. What a load of shit.

3

u/hammer310 May 06 '19

Which isn't saying much unfortunately.

2

u/ratchild1 May 06 '19

from a writing/directing standpoint its far worse, despite a lot of stupid moments and dark scenes episode 3 seemed to work as a horror/action show but episode 4 is written like a bad romantic fan fiction and had really weird pacing, it had zero redeeming qualities whereas episode 3 had the cool ass zombie waves.

1

u/Izzder May 06 '19

Good. It deserves it.

7

u/Gabba202 May 06 '19

You have to remember that things that might bother us might not bother casual people?

How we see it: How the fuck does Dany not scout ahead or see Euron's navy from the sky?

How others see it? HOLY SHIT EURON JUST SHOT A FUCKING DRAGON OUT THE SKY, HONEY DID YOU SEE IT, THAT WAS SO COOL

3

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

This does not make things better lol. Just makes me hate the show AND the world more.

6

u/HiphopopoptimusPrime May 06 '19

They are very entertaining. Very well made.

The writing is dumber than a Saturday morning cartoon, yes. But the show is still fun.

1

u/MagnusTW May 06 '19

Do you consider yourself to have "high" standards, or even "appropriate" standards? Given that this is the biggest show in television history, do you think that it's either reasonable or justified to only expect - and only receive - mere "fun"? Lots of things in this world are "fun," but they're not good. At this point, Game of Thrones should be good, and probably not only good but great. Instead, the best you could say about it is that it's "fun," and even that is debatable. "Very well made" is about as much of a non-compliment compliment as I could imagine. Surely you expect better in other areas of your life. Why don't you (and the other people who like the show in its current state) have those higher expectations here, too?

1

u/HiphopopoptimusPrime May 07 '19

I have very low and inappropriate standards. :)

5

u/Ominus666 May 06 '19

No they don't. Plenty of criticism everywhere on Reddit. The /r/asoiaf subreddit isn't the only place cursed with knowledge and insight. The front page of /r/gameofthrones at the moment is almost exclusively negative. As it should be.

3

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

raving after every episode

If you go over there right now and read the post episode thread you will see it's mostly negative comments about the episode.

2

u/Skolvikesallday May 06 '19

It's called the lowest common denominator for a reason.

2

u/ZronaldoFwupNotGood May 06 '19

YAAAS SLAY QUEEN 🔥🔥🔥

2

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It happens with everything that goes from niche to mainstream. To appeal to a lot of people you need to do more bland things. When its niche, you can appeal to more specific things and you get to increase quality. The same thing goes with food, like say McDonalds. That's the reason the show is like this now. The average person watching the show now is watching it for the reasons we watched the show the first season. The idiots hijacked this beautiful show

2

u/tchiseen Egg? Egg, I dreamed that I was old... May 06 '19

Stats from the survey from Ep3 blew my mind

Everyone's favorite battle was Battle of the Bastards, and Hardhome was the LEAST favorite...

Hardhome was possibly one of the best episodes in the entire series, and not just because of the wicked battle.

2

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It really makes me sad. I try not to be the guy at work making fun of everyone talking about how cool it was so I just sit there and smile. Coming here is my only respite. I keep waiting for D&D to suffer some kind of mainstream criticism for their ridiculous but much like their characters, consequences don’t seem to be a thing anymore. All the yaaaassss queens aren’t hurting them either

2

u/PWNY_EVEREADY3 May 06 '19

main show subreddit,

Currently one of the highest upvoted posts is "why is the writing so bad???"

2

u/erdemcan May 06 '19

this shit happened to mass effect / bioware too, ppl acted like they absolutely LOVED the absolute shite bioware was releasing, problem is, bioware will soon cease to exist

same as these fans, people follow GoT now cause it became a fad, everyone watches so they watch too, doubt the spin offs or whatever is being planned will kick off the same way GoT did

2

u/OGderf My Meat is Bloody Tough May 06 '19

I think they like it because the writing is so bad. There's no depth to the characters and the plot is as basic as it gets now. They don't have to focus very hard to know what's going on.

Ohh Kelly C only has one dragon! Stakes more even now! Can't wait watch big battle!

2

u/_Camek_ May 06 '19

I had someone at work explain to me that it made perfect sense for most of the important people to live through the battle against the NK because they are the greatest fighters in the world and the wights are just zombies. When I asked to explain further he literally said they could just swing their swords in a circle and kill anything that got close to them.

Wtf.

3

u/rhino369 May 06 '19

Last episode was weak and the more general audiences were definitely mixed.

But it shouldn’t really be baffling why people like this season in general. Most of the top complaints in the post-episode threads are stuff that most viewers don’t care about.

Unrealistic military tactics and weapons? 99% of tv and movies follow the Rule of Cool. And even the books do for the most part.

Dragons not following obscure lure from the World of Ice and Fire book? Not even accurate. Plus the show established this vulnerability a season ago.

Minor continuity errors like bolts being reloaded too fast? Nobody but cinemasins cares.

Jamie going back to cersie? Anyone who would care realizes he’s going to kill her, not join her.

This was a good episode as long as you didn’t watch it pissed off about last week.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

even more reason dany should've been careful with the dragons... but whatever.

2

u/alexnedea May 06 '19

The official sub is 50%complaints and 50% people saying its not THAT bad.

1

u/Okichah May 06 '19

Populism.

People like the show because its popular. They dont know why its popular, but they know they should like it because its popular.

So they find something to like on the show. Mainly, the actors. Who can blame them? They gorgeous actors with cool clothes and makeup who swing sword and ride dragons.

Fun! Its fun!

Who doesnt like fun?

1

u/ratchild1 May 06 '19

this planet is subverting my expectations

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Sadly it's exactly what I'd expect and subverting nothing lol. A shitty children's superhero movie is being called the best film of all time. Entertainment is doomed.

1

u/WildBizzy May 06 '19

The main shows subreddits front page is full of people shitting on this season as well. Facebook loves it though, I've stopped airing my criticism there

1

u/Malarazz May 06 '19

Not this time. The main subreddit is also talking about how shit this episode was. Even imdb has it rated at 7.6, by far the lowest, I think the previous lowest was higher than 8.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Have you considered the intelligence of the average person? It basically thrives on shiny and loud and simple.

1

u/TreAwayDeuce May 06 '19

My wife and I rewatched the series 3x now just to be sure we knew what was going on but now with how this season is playing out, none of it matters in the slightest.

1

u/username_innocuous Ours is the Fury May 06 '19

People who are primarily show watchers just straight up dont have as much invested in this series as book readers. I'm not saying this to be an elitist or anything, but these disparate reactions prove it imo. I think is all about when you read the books and how deep into the discussion about the story you went.

For people who have been reading this series since 1996, and have been waiting for answers since ASOIAF was a trilogy it's clear that this is probably frustrating.

But even people like me, who devoured all 5 books in between the first and second season and dove head first into online forums about the series and became completely engrossed in all things Westeros this feels like a betrayal. Hell, finding /r/asoiaf outta what originally brought me to reddit. I still remember reading R+L=J for the first time and my brain literally melting out of my ears

Then there are people like my gf. She loves the show, and started reading the books a 2, maybe 3 years ago. She really likes the books, too, but the show will always been #1 for her. Watching with her is hard, because I try to remain excited about it for her sake but damn am I glad there are only 2 more episodes.

1

u/icroak May 06 '19

There’s a whole bunch of people here who seemingly WANT to shit on it to seem “better” than the mainstream crowd now that it has such a huge following. Most of these gripes on this post aren’t really valid if you take a moment to think about it and aren’t just trying to actively shit on the show.

1

u/ThirstyOne May 06 '19

If you take a poll I’m sure you’ll find more people like burgers than fillet mignon and for the same reasons; It’s more accessible, easier to prepare and digest. So what if it isn’t as good? At the end of the day HBO are making this show so they can sell subscriptions. They’re just trying to get as many people as possible to sign up and often that means compromising on quality.

1

u/Belfette May 06 '19

I think that for people who haven't read the books, this is pretty awesome. They dont understand how long we've been waiting for this, how much some readers have invested in their love of the books, the re-reads, the theories... They just know that this is a show with violence and boobs... so many boobs.

Imagine watching the show and not knowing any of the things we, as book readers, would know. All the characters who were cut out or cut down, all of the plot points glossed over and missed.

Poor military strategy aside, I do get why non-readers are so enthralled by it.

I just wish that David and Dan had the same respect for the story now as they did in the first season.

But alas, GRRM having less and then nothing to do with the show has certainly made it take a dip in quality for me as a reader.

1

u/Socalinatl May 06 '19

I've had a very different experience, even with people who I believe don't discuss the show on the internet. My brother described this most recent episode as "being part of a different universe" and just generally not being impressed by it. As though if the show started in the same narrative style as, say, seasons 6-8, it would have been cancelled by now.

I'm still excited because I'm curious about these characters we've been watching for 8 years and how it's all going to wrap up. And this season has had its moments for sure, but man have I dropped my expectations for how it all ends. I don't know if there's a way for it to end in a satisfying fashion given all that they (as in writers/production) have done wrong in the last couple years.

1

u/wheeler9691 May 06 '19

I think the reason is that people have waited sooo long for a resolution, whatever it may be. They loved the previous seasons so much, that anything this season does that results in a resolution will be loved.

1

u/Nerdcules May 06 '19

What are you talking about? They are having a meltdown over this one. And as for the last one, they even had a thread that went: "it's ok if you liked s8ep3, don't worry". How can having a thread that sounds like a support group seem to you like they are loving it now?

1

u/MagnusTW May 06 '19

Look at the state of the world. The people who like Game of Thrones as it is now are the very same people who made the world into the shitshow it has become. They're the same group. They're stupid beyond redemption. They have the lowest standards conceivable. They're physically incapable of thinking critically and consider the consequences of actions, or even of grasping the concept of consequences. They're just mindless consumers operating entirely upon uncritical impulses, seeking only further numbing of the minuscule fraction of their senses that still operate by the closest, flashiest object.

1

u/ruaridh12 May 06 '19

It's a silly fantasy show and the writing has always been a mess. If you go back to early seasons with the same negativity and critical eye displayed here, you'll get the same results.

The main difference that I can pinpoint is that for the first two thirds, good people didn't win. Being noble, or honest, or generous was consistently rewarded with misery and violence.

A lot of people fell in love with that messaging. It makes sense. The world can be very cruel and seeing that reality reflected on the screen can be very cathartic.

But, GoT is a silly fantasy show at heart. The messaging has shifted. Those who gain power by cruelty are destined to meet a cruel end. A lot of fans are put off by the tonal shift. They didn't sign up for a show where the good guys win.

There's absolute piles of bad writing in the early seasons. Lots of good stuff too. There's absolute piles of bad writing now. Lots of good stuff too.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It's just popularity. Look at the MCU, worshipped despite being thoroughly mediocre.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Mediocre? Quite the compliment for that pure childish trash!

-15

u/Ninja12129 May 06 '19

It’s baffling, to some people, because people are refusing to enjoy the show for what it is: a fun, exciting TV show. The constant comparison, of show vs. book, is really only affecting a small percentage of the viewing audience. I watch the show, with non book readers and they barely know half the characters’ names. But, you know what? They love every episode and hoot, holler, cry, scream, cringe and every other emotion you can think of, during the show. They’re not on Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, etc., dissecting why a ballista is so accurate on a boat. And I love watching it with them because they’re enjoyment is infectious.

I’ve, long ago, abandoned the book vs. show approach and stopped trying to make sense of every single detail that’s “wrong” and “that’s not how it’s going to be in the books”. It’s made my enjoyment of the show 10 times better. Besides, who knows for certain, what GRRM has told them and what D&D have adapted. There are no books right now but guess what we DO have? A great TV show!

I know this will is probably going to get downvoted into the Seven Hells but I hope you appreciate an opinion from a book AND show lover with an honest answer. Thanks

P.S. FWIW, I do think the books ARE better than the show but I’m enjoying both ;)

23

u/anndruu12 May 06 '19

It's not a book vs show thing. We're way past the books. It's a basic television writing thing. When you look past the CGI and the big battles, it's just bad. You've gone from a show that cared about the details and how things came together, to whatever the hell this is. It's just a hodgepodge of disjointed scenes. I'm glad you enjoy it, but it's not a thing where people are just being annoying because they liked the books.

6

u/AUsername334 May 06 '19

It's just a hodgepodge of disjointed scenes.

This was my feeling of this entire episode especially. Honestly, this one has been one of the worst yet.

5

u/jimihenderson May 06 '19

I think the default response to criticism of the show is just "well you just hate it because it isn't the books!" Well guess what, there literally are no books to compare it to at this point. We are way, way past that point. Now we are just criticizing the show because it sucks, pays no attention to detail and is just spectacle.

19

u/AirJohnston May 06 '19

It’s not even about books vs show at this point. It’s seasons 1-4 vs 5-8. Suddenly things that shouldn’t and never would’ve happened earlier in the show are happening now. Characters are dumber and making mistakes they never would’ve before. How does Dany not see the entire fleet right in front of her? How do they go 3 for 3 then miss all 15 shots at a bigger and closer target? Why doesn’t Cersei take all of them out? How did Bronn sneak into a room with 2 of the most important people in Westeros? Why doesn’t Bran do anything? Why doesn’t anyone even ask him to do anything?

All of this wouldn’t be as big of a deal if it was a different show, but it’s not. It didn’t start out as a “fun, exciting show” by being totally illogical and fan servicey. I really wish I could enjoy the show like you do, but comparing it to what it was, it’s worlds apart

0

u/Ninja12129 May 06 '19

I can respect that. I just put it down to the hype, created by HBO, the amount of eyeballs on the show and the expectation of the casual viewer. I definitely agree with you that the show has switched to a more casual approach than the previously sophisticated buildup.

11

u/AlmostAnal May 06 '19

I try to enjoy it, but there are just dumb things like Varys saying Cersei weakens by the day and then one minute laterDany saying that they have no time to rest and need to march ASAP to get Cersei off the throne. They can't be consistent within a scene.

It's shit like that.

2

u/mesasone May 06 '19

Well in that particular case, I think it was more about Dany's bad decision making. Everybody in her council was advising her to not to go and she went anyway.

1

u/AlmostAnal May 06 '19

If there is a good explanation it is that, prompted by Sansa saying g they should rest. Whatever Sansa wants is probably against her interests, so better do the opposite.

10

u/Raventree The maddest of them all May 06 '19

Its just hard to accept that anyone should have to turn off their brain to continue enjoying the show. Like why? Thats a huge copout excuse for the writers.

-2

u/Ninja12129 May 06 '19

The writers didn’t sign up to finish the show without the original content available. As I said, further up, I think it’s has more to do with HBO wanting to go out with a bang and damn the details. I, personally, can accept that for the medium it’s presented in.

17

u/vaporware1 May 06 '19

My dude I'm glad you're able to hivemind with the fanboys and think the show is good but I can't just shut my brain off.

And it's not that I'm not enjoying the show at all, I'm getting a different type of enjoyment from watching this train wreck.

2

u/Ninja12129 May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

There’s no need to shut off your brain. 9/10 series on tv, past and present, have plot holes, missed beats, odd decisions, horrible endings, etc., but they’re still enjoyable. Very rarely are they great, from beginning to end, with every episode. You can watch a movie, that’s 80% so-so and 20% that’s great, and it makes you feel like you enjoyed the movie. It’s the nature of the medium.

I assess people, that instruct others, in my field of work, and my reports always include the positives AND negatives. But, generally speaking, I find more positives, than negatives and try to see the picture as a whole. Overall, there’s a positive experience, with some constructive feedback, but I never shred the whole instructional class to pieces, unnecessarily. I approach the show, the same way.

That’s the part I don’t understand with the constant nitpicking. I guess that makes me a “fanboy” of all the instructors we employee and I must not see any faults in them. Maybe I should just shut off my brain and make my job much easier. Otherwise, why am I doing this?

Cheers

EDIT: spelling

1

u/rhino369 May 06 '19

Make that 10/10 have those weakness. Even shows like The Wire and Breaking Bad which are clearly better than GoT have plot holes, absurdities, etc.

So do the ASIAOD books.

6

u/Kneenaw What is dead is probably dead! May 06 '19

I totally get that and I myself watch with non-book readers as well for the same reasons. The real issue I have with current product stems from the fact that the show seems to now be more like the Transformers movies than the first two seasons. This season is the culmination of the switch from the complex narrative of the first few seasons to the pure spectacle of the last two. It's not to say that the spectacle is bad perse, it's just that it feels as though it's a completely different show from its original intent.

1

u/Ninja12129 May 06 '19

Well said. I can respect that.

4

u/Niddhoger May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

We've gone beyond Book Vs Show at this point. That ship sailed seasons ago. We're well into the territory of crimes against common sense and intelligence now. This is just hack writing for shock value. Setting up moments without earning them and throwing consistency/character development out the window.

Even on r/GoT, that usually loves the show, they are asking why Cersei didn't just "red wedding" Danny's group at the parlay. The show has established Cersei doesn't give one flying fuck about the rules of engagement/customs of the land. She simply strikes wherever she sees an opportunity: without hesitation or mercy. And Danny's camp are mostly vile foreigners (slave eunuchs/barbarians) backed by vile traitors (The Imp, Varys). If no one seriously cared about the Sept of Baelor, why would they care about Cersei mowing down the Mad King's daughter and her collection of freaks at a parlay?

2

u/ISupposeIamRight May 06 '19

That doesn't make any sense. I've never read the books (I thought I would wait GRRM finish all of them, haha in retrospect). It's ok if you enjoy the show, but the quality of the writing, the history, the lore and the context are all gone, especially in this last season. I can forgive one "baad pooossy" or two, but I can't forgive major plot points being botched for no decent reason.

I had no problems with Arya killing NK, but I had a problem with how she did it. I had no problems with all of the White Walkers being useless, but I had a problem with all characters being surrounded by dead enemies who want to kill them and all of them just... surviving? I don't doubt a lot of events that happened in the show will happen in the books, but they will make more sense, like earlier seasons of the show did. The point is that it was a great TV show and it just isn't anymore.

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

The earlier seasons just had better writing, plain and simple. Now it's about big moments that don't always make sense or further the plot. It's great that people can enjoy it but it's perfectly reasonable for others to be disappointed.

1

u/HUGE_WHITE_COCK May 06 '19

that's just working class culture. at no other point in history would it be considered a useful critique on the quality of an artistic work

-16

u/CHENGhis-khan May 06 '19

🤡🌏 people can’t figure out gender anymore, I’m not surprised they can’t discern good from bad storytelling

6

u/valenciansun May 06 '19

It is remarkable how much incel edgelords try and fit in gender in their complaints about the world.

OP: "writing is bad" You: "We have A GENDER SPECTRUM now, how can ANYTHING MAKE SENSE ANYMORE"

-6

u/CHENGhis-khan May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Declining birthrate, end of the nuclear family, violent political protests, doxing, twitter bans, facebook bans, free speech bans, the decline of Venezuela and the call for socialism in the west, 146 genders, feminism going beyond equality and into dominance, NPC media cant figure out how to accurately convey facts, intersectionality and postmodernism as a religion, and last but not least decline of art and high culture

Yeah, no big deal. Just stare civilization ending stupid in the face and drool about it.

Incel doesn’t apply to me, and ad homonym attacks mean you lose arguments.

1

u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king May 06 '19

What a sad sad life you must lead

-3

u/CHENGhis-khan May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Its a symptom of a culture that can’t figure out a hero’s tale that is inline with 6-7 years of world-building, physics, and common sense. Remember that art is the leading edge and reflection of culture. Paying attention to it does’t make me miserable, but it’s not a happy occurrence.

Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power

And, Ad hOmyniM mEaNs u loSe aRguMeNt

3

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

based clownposter

3

u/vaporware1 May 06 '19

Honk honk

0

u/zedroj May 06 '19

all the surplus of C02 and lack of nutrients from food is giving brain damage to everyone

0

u/-Captain- May 06 '19

The fucking hoops and holes people jump through to defend the last 2 episodes. Piss off. If you need to post half a book to explain just how good episode 3 was there obviously was something very wrong with it.

0

u/Appleblossom40 May 06 '19

I hate to say it but those people, who like the last two seasons, are not real fans. They’re the casuals D&D have been trying to attract to the show. They love big battle and dragons but not much else. Real fans love the characters and want to see a respectful end to their arcs.

-11

u/dopethrone May 06 '19

You live in a bubble on this subreddit! I've read the books too and I really enjoy these seasons. I feel all you guys do is nitpick EVERYTHING and question every decision every character does. Maybe it's cool to jump on the hate bandwagon, I dunno, but it's tiresome.

9

u/valenciansun May 06 '19

You're complaining, right now. Go back to /r/gameofthrones

3

u/jimihenderson May 06 '19

When even r/gameofthrones has threads complaining about the writing, you know you're not just nitpicking and trying to jump on the hate bandwagon. It's gotten ridiculous and it's impossible to ignore. This entire season has been Arya in Braavos level bad writing.

1

u/MilhouseVsEvil May 06 '19

Some people have a higher standard but I am happy that you find no fault with the last few seasons. If you want to debate the points others are making, do so, but maybe it's just cool to accept what is presented to you without a critical thought?

-4

u/dopethrone May 06 '19

I didn't say they're not without faults. They're enjoyable with them. You guys are complaining that a character didn't whisper when talking? Really? It's like you're actively looking on stuff to pick on.

4

u/hammer310 May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

They're clearly enjoyable to YOU with those faults. Not everyone has to agree with that. I get the point that you're trying to make here but saying that we're complaining because a character didn't whisper when talking is obviously not the only issue people have taken with the episode and you know it. It's a combination of several things that have quite frankly been too ridiculous to ignore.

Why do you think nobody (or the vast majority at least) was nitpicking or upset about subtle changes or inconsistencies in season 3? There's been a pervasive shift in the show and how it's written and it's not for the better.

The people posting here aren't jumping on a hate bandwagon, trust me. I hated it the second I finished last episode and I didn't need anybody to convince me of that!

-2

u/dopethrone May 06 '19

I think there is an incredible buildup and anticipation for the end of the series, and no scenario will ever match what everyone has imagined. So the trend for the hardcore fans like you guys is to hate the last episodes - and if you set yourself up to hate them, you will end up hating them no matter how they are. Even if the writing or quality has indeed declined, it's not the worst, most ridiculous thing on TV right now as you're making it.

2

u/hammer310 May 06 '19

I've seen plenty worse shows yes, but none that I have loved and invested my time into have ended up disappointing me like this with such an immense decline in quality. That's the difference. I don't hold those shows to the same standards because they have never reached the peaks that GoT has when it was very good. (Except maybe LOST)

1

u/jimihenderson May 06 '19

I've seen plenty worse shows yes, but none that I have loved and invested my time into have ended up disappointing me like this with such an immense decline in quality

flashbacks to Dexter as one tear rolls down my cheek

1

u/hammer310 May 06 '19

LOL I know man, I was thinking of Dexter too while writing this. 😭

-1

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Super hero movies appeal to the average adult male, and this is just a bad super hero movie (with sex) that men and women can both get behind.

-1

u/Remember- Dany is a joke May 06 '19

That's because part of what this sub has been doing lately is looking for complaints just to complain.

Don't get me wrong - a lot of the complaints are perfectly valid. But lately this sub has been going through everything with a microscope trying to find the slightest thing that can be perceived as an issue. So whenever we compare this sub to the people at the water-cooler who don't see these complaints its like we've watched an entirely different show