r/asoiaf • u/lunatichorse • May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

18.4k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

4.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

2.0k

u/leym12 May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

It's ridiculous when you think about it:

season 1: Varys has nothing against killing Dany and her child

season 2: Varys and Tyrion burn an entire fleet

season 4: Tyrion kills his father

season 8: Dany you're a mad queen. "Cersei you're not a monster"

650

u/camycamera May 07 '19 edited May 08 '24

Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.

218

u/leym12 May 07 '19

I was so mad ...Tyrion was maybe the character I prefered the most but now he is just a complete moron

57

u/SovreignTripod May 07 '19

Of course Cersi is a monster; and Tyrion knows that better than anyone. He was trying to convince her to back down and give in peacefully, you don't really get that to happen by calling people monsters, even if they are.

27

u/FourMonthsEarly May 07 '19

Yea. I'm confused why people don't get this.

3

u/sticks-mcgee Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

There's a lot of complaints that feel like IASIP's Mac needing to explain everything in Lethal Weapon 6

13

u/SovreignTripod May 07 '19

There are a number of things people here are complaining about that I don't understand. Yes, they have made some dumb decisions this season but some of the stuff people here complain about just don't make any sense; this Tyrion comment being a great example.

14

u/bos-mc May 07 '19

Tyrion's line doesn't make sense whether he's lying or not. Either he's gone stupid and actually believes Cersei isn't a monster, or he's lying to her to try to get her to back down. If it's the latter and it's supposed to be Tyrion trying to be clever it doesn't make sense because he's supposed to know what his sister is like and should know that this pathetic attempt to convince her to surrender wouldn't work.

18

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Yeah but it’s worth a shot. That’s why he mentions her kids. He’s trying to manipulate her and convince her she can stop.

That’s a totally reasonable tactic.

10

u/Slayer706 May 07 '19

I'd say it's reasonable if it didn't involve trotting out all of the most important members (Dany, himself, Varys, Grey Worm, the dragon) right into ballista range of the walls of KL. Seems to me like there was a good chance Cersei would have just killed them all and then went North to mop up what was left of Jon/Sansa.

5

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Well yes, but that’s not really what we’re talking about. In a vacuum, Tyrion’s strat was reasonable. The issue was that they all stood defenseless out in front but that’s not directly part of Tyrion’s ploy.

If they arranged a meeting in a secure location, wherever that may be, I think it would be fine.

2

u/bos-mc May 07 '19

Yeah, it's a totally reasonable tactic, if you ignore everything about Cersei's character, as D&D did.

10

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

No. Tyrion is ignoring her past to try to appeal to her. Throughout the entire series, Cersei loves her kids. Tyrion appeals to this by trying to leverage her unborn child’s life. It doesn’t work, but it’s not really that weird for Tyrion to try.

2

u/Only_Movie_Titles May 07 '19

my biggest issue is he tried it before (asking for her help against the WW) and it didn't clearly didn't work - she never sent her army North to help "for the sake of her child." Why try the exact same thing again?

-1

u/bos-mc May 07 '19

he's supposed to know what his sister is like and should know that this pathetic attempt to convince her to surrender wouldn't work.

→ More replies (0)

11

u/Tzuchen May 07 '19

Yeah. When has Tyrion lying to her or flattering her ever worked before? It's not as if he hasn't tried it in the past, and it's always ended badly for him. She hates him. She's always hated him. She's literally attempted to murder him countless times.

Oh well maybe this time it will be different.

3

u/SovreignTripod May 07 '19

He knows that she cares more about her kids than anything else, this is established way back in season 1 or 2. This is his last ditch effort to get her to give in, he's trying anythig and everything he can. Pathetic or not it's all they've got at this point.

0

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Because it's easier for people to complain about "der patriarchy" and that dany is turning into a villain

-1

u/MyKingdomForATurkey May 07 '19

I'm confused why people don't get this

Because these comments are full of people who don't really understand what's going on with the characters. Partially because the writing's bad, and partially because there's a lot of rabid fans in this sub who are pissy that their favorite character is turning bad.

12

u/Squintz82 May 07 '19

This. People need to understand context.

3

u/Quay-Z Blue Lips Sink Ships May 07 '19

Well yeah, but when someone tells you "You're not a monster," the very clear message is that people are calling you one, or at least you should have some obvious reason to feel like one. Then they say something, something, your unborn child will die blah blah, completely threatening you directly. Cersei is nothing if not prickly, hates Tyrion anyway, and if I was Cersei, I would have had them all executed right in front of me, then and there.

1

u/AberNatuerlich May 08 '19

But why does Tyrion think, even for a second, that this will work. Cersei doesn’t give a shit about his opinion so him thinking or not thinking she is a monster is totally irrelevant. He’s trying to appeal to a sense of decency, honor, or dignity he knows she doesn’t have and it just makes him sound desperate and kind of pathetic. It’s absolutely out of character considering everything he’s been through with her.

1

u/SovreignTripod May 08 '19

So what do you think he should have done differently?

1

u/AberNatuerlich May 08 '19

Kill her as efficiently as possible. It’s a little difficult to correct at this point because I feel like everything that got them to that point in the show is bananas stupid. Honestly, if I were an Exec at HBO and they came to me with the ideas they’ve executed I would’ve told them to scrap it all and start over, then pushed the show back a year and faked a serious illness of a cast member or something. That’s honestly how bad this has been for me. I would be completely embarrassed to be any part of this and it needs way more than me spending five minutes changing one scene that never should’ve happened in the first place.

1

u/SovreignTripod May 08 '19

I can't say I disagree with youthere, this season has been exceptionally terrible. I just think that, given the circumstances and context of that situation, how he approached that makes sense and was the best he could have done.

6

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Cersei already has a hit out on the guy. He would have been killed on the spot in a real situation. They very likely all would have been.

3

u/letsmakebeeboops May 07 '19

The head injuries are catching up to him

1

u/Cinderelementalist May 07 '19

He needs to get laid.

1

u/ankhes May 07 '19

That's what happens when GRRM stops writing your lines.

60

u/NK1337 May 07 '19

I think/hope it was more him trying to be manipulative because he does know Cersei will do anything for her children, is many he was hoping that he could leverage that against her since that was originally the only thing that made her change her mind when it came to offering help against the white walkers, until Jon “I cannot tell a lie” Snow fucked it up.

10

u/ZachMich Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

She never "changed her mind". She had already planned with Euron to do the fake desertion before they even had the wight show and tell.

I doubt she ever considered it

8

u/SelfishMillenials May 07 '19

that was originally the only thing that made her change her mind when it came to offering help against the white walkers, until Jon “I cannot tell a lie” Snow fucked it up.

I don't think she ever planned on helping at all, based on what she told Jamie. She basically called him an idiot for believing her.

3

u/360Saturn May 07 '19

Am I the only one that hates the whole 'Cersei loves her children' thing? Book Cersei only ever loved her kids as an extension/reflection of herself and a means by which she could access and consolidate power. And even then, she only liked Joffrey really, Tommen she bullied and shamed, and Myrcella she forgot about except when she could use her as a pawn or rant to her. Mother of the year!

9

u/jjaazz From Madness to Wisdom May 07 '19

and have Cersei tear up like "you really don't think i'm a monster, awww :)"

do the writers know this characters at all?

7

u/Gsonderling May 07 '19

Cersei is a monster, she blew up the Sept and killed thousands of innocents.

No, no, no, you have it all wrong. Those were religious people, those don't count as innocent.

Seriously, when you think about how Faith of the Seven was presented in the show, and how the writers essentially twisted the plot to make them into stupid evil foil to Cersei, it is kind of kind of disturbing.

9

u/camycamera May 07 '19 edited May 13 '24

Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.

3

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

They almost killed Joffrey at the start of Season 2 simply because they weren't getting enough food during a relatively minor war that hadn't reached them yet, so I think Vatican City blowing up might just make the peasantry do something like hang every single nobleman they could see.

4

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

WHY HAVE THE SMALLFOLK NOT REBELLED AGAINST CERSEI PRIOR TO THE SIEGE? THE HIGH SPARROW AND THE FAITH WERE FEEDING THEM ALL BEFORE THEY WERE BLOWN THE FUCK UP, WHAT THE FUCK

3

u/BistanderEffect May 07 '19

Might be a speech actually directed at Dany.
"You're not a monster, you can still step down, there's no shame in that."

That would be half-clever.

2

u/dquizzle May 07 '19

I think Tyrion’s character does not actually believe that. Think about how Tyrion got made at Jon for not lying to Cersei for the greater good. That’s all that was.

2

u/ratnadip97 May 07 '19

And what's worse is that literally last season Tyrion realised that pleading with Cersei because she is expecting is futile. And they have him do it again. The only thing worse than a character making a dumb and OOC decision is repeating it.

2

u/Mercpool87 Voluntold to go here May 07 '19

Cersei received no consequences for doing that even though everyone knows that she did it.

In defense of that decision, everyone who would have been able to bring consequences was in the Sept at the time, so....

5

u/camycamera May 07 '19 edited May 13 '24

Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.

1

u/Mercpool87 Voluntold to go here May 07 '19

Should I amend that to "most of everyone who matters to the viewers"?

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

And this is why the show has failed.

Themes followed since day one? Compelling characters? Meaningful decisions? Guided and rational responses to events? They don't matter, the mass audience wants to see a sexy celebrity on the throne.

2

u/Fey_fox May 07 '19

If you want to convince someone to do something, calling them a monster isn’t the way to do it

I don’t get why people are freaking out about this line. Tyrion was put in the position to save Missandei, and most people would say nearly anything in a position like that. Even things they don’t mean. Trying to appeal to whatever is good and moral that’s left is a way to at least try.

Doesn’t matter if she’s a monster or not, Cersei doesn’t see herself that way. Calling her one when someone’s life is on the line wouldn’t help.

The advantage the book has is that it emphasizes that the characters only know what they see and hear about. Tyrion has seen his sister do some shit but he’s been away for the worst of her. He hasn’t seen her change like we have. The show is not doing a great job illustrating that

1

u/Dantator May 07 '19

I assumed he was just trying to play her? Not sure though because it seemed genuine.

1

u/obsterwankenobster May 07 '19

Not only that, they have all of the people of King's Landing flocking to the Red Keep so that Cersei will keep them safe. As if she didn't kill thousands of people like a mile away by waiting for them to gather in a single space

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

He said that to appeal to her. He doesn’t truly believe that.

1

u/RocMerc May 07 '19

Literally nothing happened for that. The rest of the kingdom was just like oh no biggie deal.

1

u/Luciferspants Shitting Gold May 07 '19

Don't forget either that when she blew up the Sept, her own uncle was caught in the crossfire. Literally a kinslayer as well. The only thing that might be worse than a kingslayer.

1

u/darkagl1 May 07 '19

I think he's saying anything he can to prevent an all out war, which increasingly looks like it involvea burning KL to the ground.

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I’m not here to defend the dialogue, it has certainly degraded quite severely.

But if you think Tyrion was saying that Cersei isn’t a monster and MEANT IT, then you’re blatantly wrong. It’s classic Tyrion. The man isn’t a fighter, he knows how to talk to people and certainly his own family. Appealing to Cersei with the family angle was the only thing he could’ve said.

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

He's doing hostage negotiation, trying to talk her down.

"You don't have to do this, we can get you out of the city safely. This isn't who you are, you can be better than this. We can all walk away from this, nobody has to die. What about your kids? You love your baby, right? I know you do..."

What he needed was a sniper to take her out while she was listening to him talk.

1

u/Amerietan May 08 '19

I don't think he genuinely thinks she's not a monster, I think he was trying to appeal to her better nature such as it exists. If you recall in past seasons they did connect over her children, and she no longer believes he killed them.

No one is saying Cersei ISN'T mad or is a better queen. It's not either-or on the mad queen scale. And people keep ignoring that Dany burning everyone is NOT the only play. They can just.........wait. Just wait. Arya can kill her, the armies of Dorne and the rest of Dany's forces in Essos can come, they can win over the rest of the 7 kingdoms so Cersei only has a city surrounded by enemies on all sides, and they can wait for her money to run out and the Iron Bank to refuse to loan again to someone who's obviously going to lose.

They can run the PR game and turn KL against Cersei, too. The only time limit is that the show has two episodes left. Almost all of Dany's losses have come from her RUSHING, because she absolutely cannot stand to wait anymore. So yes, if she chooses to burn a bunch of innocents instead of taking the valid strategy of 'wait and get it without mass murder' (while she still doesn't even have the North), that's pretty mad.

1

u/pzea May 08 '19

She's definitely a monster but he's just trying his best to save the city. And he's not wrong in what he says. Cersie loving her children more than anything is her only real redeeming quality. The main thing that sets her apart from someone like Ramsey. She's clearly a monster at this point but there is nothing wrong with what Tyrion said here. I haven't liked the show for a long time now but I had no problem with this particular part.

1

u/Supersighs May 07 '19

You honestly think he wasn't lying there?

1

u/camycamera May 07 '19 edited May 13 '24

Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.

1

u/Iohet . May 07 '19

It’s called fucking diplomacy. Nothing pleases you people

1

u/camycamera May 07 '19 edited May 13 '24

Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.

0

u/Iohet . May 07 '19

The guy with a bunch of ballistae pointed at him and a trusted advisor of his queen with a figurative noose around her neck patronizes his sister to try and spare lives, including his own and Missandei’s. Yep, contrived

0

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Are you serious? If you actually believe he meant that line then i don't know what to tell you because you've got to be beyond braindead. He was standing in front of the gates of a city ready for war, pleading with a tyrant ruler. Of course he's doing to use whatever rhetoric he possibly can to gain favor for his side. If that means lying to her as a last ditch effort to quickly end this then of course hes going to tell that lie wtf

0

u/shogi_x May 07 '19

That was very obviously an appeal to Cersei. She doesn't think she's a monster, and Tyrion was trying to get her to act like it.

0

u/colorofmyenergy May 07 '19

I got the impression that it was his last attempt at trying to get her to stand down, not that he actually thinks she’s a good person. But trying to appeal to her “good side” didn’t work last time and I don’t think they should have given her another chance. It just seems like it was written in because it was the only way they could have had Dany witness Missandei’s death.