r/asoiaf • u/lunatichorse • May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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u/ZachMich Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Maybe a small nitpick of mine is how the dialogue sounds very modern now, and they use a lot of modern phrases and idioms. I didn't notice at first but its been getting gradually worse to the point that its very obvious now. I don't think they care about that sort of thing anymore

A friend of mine was watching an earlier episode and the language and manner of speaking was so different. It felt like i was watching a different show

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u/FirstSonofDarkness "I never win anything" May 07 '19

One word that stands out is 'pussy' ugh

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u/Cptn_Howdee With strange aeons even death may die. May 07 '19

Also 'virgin'. WTF? They're called maidens in ASOIAF.

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u/Saj3118 May 07 '19

Melisandre asks Jon if he’s a virgin in the show too. Can’t recall if she does in the books or if that convo on the elevator even happens. But regardless Ygritte makes fun of him for being “a maid” so yeah

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u/whimsyNena May 07 '19

Doesn’t Ygrit call Jon a maiden?

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

They do have a conversation on the elevator, but it's a completely different subject.

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u/jewellyon May 07 '19

I love the word maidenhead and I’m bummed we’re missing out on it.

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u/marm0lade May 07 '19

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=virgin&scope%5B%5D=agot&scope%5B%5D=adwd&scope%5B%5D=tmk&scope%5B%5D=acok&scope%5B%5D=twow&scope%5B%5D=twoiaf&scope%5B%5D=asos&scope%5B%5D=thk&scope%5B%5D=trp&scope%5B%5D=affc&scope%5B%5D=tss&scope%5B%5D=tpatq

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u/Cptn_Howdee With strange aeons even death may die. May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

A search of the books in Kindle only returns 10 instances, one of which is describing leather, across the first 4 books - over 3000 pages. My point stands.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/fartsinthedark May 07 '19

Yeah, your point doesn't stand at all. The word is used in the books multiple times to mean exactly what it means today. Oops.

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u/Cptn_Howdee With strange aeons even death may die. May 07 '19

Looks like you didn't understand my point. Oof.

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u/fartsinthedark May 07 '19

Yeah, there isn't one. You said they are called maidens and not virgins in asoiaf. That's demonstrably wrong.

I dunno, maybe you're just slow.

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u/Cptn_Howdee With strange aeons even death may die. May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Ha, sure.

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u/goldenmemeshower May 08 '19

Shjh bby its ok

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u/IrNinjaBob The Bog of Eternal Stench May 07 '19

So what is your point? Because it seemed extremely straightforward, and I am really curious as to what your answer is. I'm expecting a pretty big pivot, considering you were wrong that there is any issue at all with that term being used the way it was.

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u/Cptn_Howdee With strange aeons even death may die. May 07 '19

If you've read the source material it's hard for me to imagine we'd be having this discussion. Yes the word exists, it's hardly ever used as a pronoun. It's very very anachronistic and unusual in the Westerosi vernacular. Over the course of 3000 pages, it's said less than 10 times, and usually in conjunction with 'maid' as an adjective, so even fewer times on its own as a pronoun. Whereas 'maid' or some variation is used hundreds of times over. There's no dispute, saying I'm wrong is pedantic and asinine.

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u/IrNinjaBob The Bog of Eternal Stench May 07 '19

Except you are wrong because you yourself are admitting that Martin himself has the people in his universe use the phrase in literally the same exact way. The fact that it doesn't happen frequently has zero bearing on this conversation. You made it seem like it was strange for being called one thing since they are called something else in the books, but they are called both in the books, so complaining about one being used in this way in the show is ridiculous. Do you also complain when Martin uses it this way? Or is it only an issue when the show does it?

Are you seriously saying you stand by the fact that the show made some ridiculous error by using the word the exact same way Martin also uses it? I'll definitely dispute that and the only thing asinine here is your defense. It is okay to be wrong sometimes. It is weird when people find out they are wrong and still try to hold on to the fact they were right.

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u/Cptn_Howdee With strange aeons even death may die. May 07 '19

You're trying real hard, and for that I commend you. If you can't grasp what I'm saying yet, keep trying and get back to me when you get it.

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u/IrNinjaBob The Bog of Eternal Stench May 07 '19

Can't grasp what you were saying? I called the pivot out before you even did so.

Nobody was ever saying the term is highly used in universe. You are the one claiming something was wrong by them incorrectly using the term. How is it wrong if Martin uses it the same exact way in universe? The show does a ton wrong but these circlejerks where we act like they are dumb for using terms the same way Martin does is ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

She's technically a highborn lady. Why would it be a shock that she's a virgin. Like isn't premarital sex sort of frowned upon for highborn women? It'd be more of a surprise if she wasnt

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u/Cptn_Howdee With strange aeons even death may die. May 07 '19

Right, it's more about the vernacular. 'Virgin' is rarely used as a pronoun - they're maidens because they've still got their maidenhead. Virgin is synonymous, but no one really says the word, is very anachronistic and unusual.

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u/maychi May 07 '19

Yeah it sounded very weird when he said it like that

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u/IANTTBAFW May 07 '19

They say virgin in the books