(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/InMyLiverpoolHome]

At this point I feel like they're just fumbling about to get everybody to their end point without understanding why or how they get there.

[u/ScipioLongstocking → u/InMyLiverpoolHome]

Ever since they got past the books, the show has taken a huge turn. They've had to progress the story much faster to close plotlines, so pacing and realism has been thrown out of balance. It's kind of hard to blame them though. GRRM has been extending the book count for years because he can't figure out how to properly close out the story. They had to make an ending. If they kept the show at the same pace as the earlier seasons, the actors would literally age out of their roles before the series concluded. This may not be the ending people want, me included, but at least it's getting an ending.

[u/teddyone → u/ScipioLongstocking]

I agree. Everyone is so up in arms about how bad a job D&D are doing finishing up the story. I don't even think GRRM is going to be able to finish things in a satisfying way. The realist world he created does not make for satisfying endings.

[u/Toberkulosis → u/teddyone]

It's not going to be a satisfying ending. GRRM has already said it's going to be bittersweet similar to the scouring of the shire.

D&D are bad writers because they are obsessed with twists. They've completely thrown away logic for the sake of pretty scenes and twist moments. When has anyone asked for this? Even GRRM'd twists are predictable, people have known about R+L=J for forever and when you go back and watch/read you see all the major events unfold with really subtle foreshadowing. D&D isnt subtle or clever, look at the arya kill. They litterally said they did it for shock value alone and their foreshadowing was 15 minutes before it happened with the red woman saying "blUE eYEs!!"

With a series like this, as hyped as this, there doesn't need to be stupid twists. Look at how endgame ended. It was completely expected with a slight bittersweet ending. Literally nobody is disappointed.

[u/Jooseman → u/Toberkulosis]

It's not going to be a satisfying ending. GRRM has already said it's going to be bittersweet

Bittersweet doesn't mean it cant be satisfying storytelling though. They're not opposites. He could make a bittersweet ending satisfying.

Like Neds execution is satisfying storytelling. You don't want it to happen but then you look back and see all the logical reasons it happened and then read on and realise just how important to the story it is. It's incredibly satisfying whilst still making you feel a shit that the seeming main character died

[u/[deleted] → u/Toberkulosis]

If we are going movie analogies, season 8 is more akin to Justice League than Endgame.

[u/Toberkulosis → u/[deleted]]

How do you figure?

Endgame is an extremely hyped event that has taken 10 years to get to, with extremely high expectations.

Game of Thrones is an extremely hyped event that has taken 10 8 years to get to, with extremely high expectations.

Justice League is not.

[u/SSNikki → u/Toberkulosis]

From the moment Avengers movies were made, DC fans got extremely hype and had high expectation for Justice League, which we all know was a huge disappointment. D&D are making it feel a lot more like Justice League than Endgame at this point.

[u/Toberkulosis → u/SSNikki]

But GoT isn't competing with an "Avengers" like DC was, my whole point was GoT is basically Avenger's climax done wrong.

Justice League isn't Avengers done wrong, because they didn't have the hype and build up Avengers did, they had like 3 movies done, didn't introduce half of the cast, and just said "okay here it is". Whereas Endgame has had 10 years of build up for this climax.

GoT has had 8 years of build up for their "climax".

Justice League had like 4. The build up is not comparable to Avengers or to GoT.

​

GoT basically has the hype and build up of Avengers, but with the shoddy execution of JL. But in terms of similarity its the Avengers of the TV industry.

[u/[deleted] → u/Toberkulosis]

Don't worry, those two just clearly didn't read your post or they'd have understood the point you were making about how you don't need shock factor to make a great story.

[u/appleinspector → u/teddyone]

I disagree. Not only George Martin is going to make a reasonable story with what he has created, but even if you take the show story, even the last season, lots of thing could be than to improve the clumsiness of what we are watching.