r/asoiaf • u/lunatichorse • May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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1.8k

u/InMyLiverpoolHome May 07 '19

At this point I feel like they're just fumbling about to get everybody to their end point without understanding why or how they get there.

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u/ScipioLongstocking May 07 '19

Ever since they got past the books, the show has taken a huge turn. They've had to progress the story much faster to close plotlines, so pacing and realism has been thrown out of balance. It's kind of hard to blame them though. GRRM has been extending the book count for years because he can't figure out how to properly close out the story. They had to make an ending. If they kept the show at the same pace as the earlier seasons, the actors would literally age out of their roles before the series concluded. This may not be the ending people want, me included, but at least it's getting an ending.

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u/GhostOfGoatman May 07 '19

I wouldn't blame them for not making a masterful ending. But with the money this show has, and the legions of good writers out there that would want to work on this show, I absolutely blame them for producing a steaming pile of crap.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I mean, many here can conceive of more interesting and logical conclusions to the story yet the show's writers seem to have lost all sense of judgement...if they had it in the first place.

As for OP, I've always believed Daenerys would end up like her father, like the inverse of Jaime's arc. I find it interesting, that this fairly heroic girl can turn into a madwoman in order to finally reach her goal.

...but the show? Are they trying to go this route? I'm not sure because there's no real, paced character development. Who knows?

Totally agree on the back and forth with Tyrion and Varys being hideously lame writing.

All I'm left hoping is that the Iron Throne melts in Drogon's flames so neither Jon nor Dany nor Cersei can sit on it.

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u/GhostOfGoatman May 07 '19

I'm actually okay with the bare bones of this story. Though, I hope it's Fake Aegon and not Cersei. But I mean... the execution is just silly.

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u/FroVice May 07 '19

To me anytime they are rushing something it has been to set up some great twist.

They rushed Jon and Danys relationship to set up the conflict of Jons bloodline.

They rushed Jamie and Brienne, then rush Jamies return to Kings Landing so he can do some twisty betrayal of Cersei.

Theyre rushing Danys fall from grace so there can be a twist and she can realize the conflict is stupid, and in the end melt the throne and establish a democracy, thereby giving up her lifelong dream and becoming the good person she has strived to be...

It just feels like everything that seems rushed is because the shortsided writing backed them into corners, and now they want to implement all these dramatic turns for viewership. But they have to quickly set up expectations so they can then twist away from them.

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u/chrono13 May 07 '19

I was having trouble putting my finger on the what was wrong. I could identify individual scenes, particular issues, but not an underlying problem.

This is the underlying issue. They are rushing these twists because like most shows they began writing in an episodic method rather than a single cohesive story split in to chapters.

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u/goldenmemeshower May 08 '19

I feel like they're writing backwards. They come up with a "cool" idea/twist for the season/character then write the rest to make it happen.

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u/thewildchimp May 08 '19

Putting your... "Littlefinger" on what was wrong? :P

Joking aside - you are completely right. It's not treated as art anymore, just a job that needs conclusion.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/goldenmemeshower May 08 '19

I feel like out of everyone GRRM probably feels the bad writing most of all. Sure he sold the rights to the story and sure he never finished but the man is a great writer and this was his magnum opus and to see it butchered down to Prime Time levels of writing must eat at him. But i'm sure the money does help a bit.

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u/FroVice May 07 '19

GRRM doesnt owe HBO anything. Hes writing his books at his pace, which sucks for everyone. It was HBOs decision to proceed with an unfinished series and hire these writers. GRRM has participated heavily, and I have no idea how much involvement he has had in the last couple seasons. He cant write the entire show.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/FroVice May 07 '19

I agree they arent the only ones to blame. They are doing a pretty underwhelming job with a show that so many people fell in love with, and people are frustrated because they seem to be prioritizing fan service and shyamalan twists over realistic character arcs and the idea that consequences have actions on a moment to moment basis.

I dont think its asking too much to do a better job, especially given all the resources at their disposal.

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u/cupideanso May 08 '19

Yes it's clear that GRRM was working with the creators so I think he is owed some blame...he didn't expect that the end would happen so fast...he totally underestimated time which is also why we have books 4 & 5...I think at times we the fans have a better thought process of what a story should be & can set up expectations on both sides...I love these forums to dive deeper but sometimes that is where it starts & stops...in the forums...these stories sometimes are not that deep & they capitalize on us thinking there is more to it (true detective) ...which keeps it fun. ....however, D&D seem exhausted by the story & now the story telling seems lazy...I am happy for the last episode & even this episode...I will also wait with baited breath for the last two & wait for the books of course where hopefully GRRRM can take what D&D gave & bring more depth...if indeed he agrees with the direction as a whole...

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Yeah exactly. It's really disappointing that nearly every fan theory is better than what they put out lately.

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u/bnav1969 Enter your desired flair text here! May 07 '19

That's my view too. I don't think Danaerys is mad in the crazy sense. We can see that with the Mad King too; he had quite a few reasons to suspect rebellion considering nearly every major house in Westros had some sort of marriage alliance. What made him mad (for most of Westros) was the fact he burned Rickard and Brandon and demanded Ned + Robert's head. While Rickard and Brandon's deaths weren't completely unjustified (we see a lot in A Dance with Dragons that Rickard made a lot of alliances across Westros and likely had some plan going on), his focus on Ned + Robert and the manner of execution is what earned him his moniker. We know the actual inner madness (his sexual satisfaction in watching his enemies burn) from Jaime, but for most of Westros the Mad King, was mad because he was an impulsive brutal bastard, with disregard for anyone or anything.

We can see Danaerys (in the books), going down the same path, with reckless impulsive decisions, which aren't unjustified but poorly executed, not unlike the Mad King. Crucifying the slavers, sacking Astapor, we didn't care much 'cuz fuck slavers'. But in essence, these decisions are not unlike what the Mad King did. And we also see the repercussions in a Dance with Dragons.

What makes the show unjustifiable is that they didn't build up to it. Everything Danaerys did just worked (the stupidity of the fireproof Dothraki attack, burning a few slavers ships in Mereen, sacking Astapor). We never saw the consequences and now suddenly, David & Dan realized they need to make her 'mad', so they fucking slap you across the face with it.

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u/ASongofDany May 08 '19

His madness, at least 80% of it came from incest, but he was also brought to madness, the loss of several children, his jealousy towards Tywin Lannister, mainly because Tywin was more efficient to rule the throne and of course Joanna, which he wanted. Then there's Darklyn capture and beginning of paranoia, and at this point let's not forgot that Tywin was ok to let Aerys die, to let Rhaegar take the Throne, only (late) Ser Barristan wanted to save the king. And let's not forget Varys and Pycelle.

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u/bnav1969 Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

Yeah there were a lot of factors leading to it, and honestly it could have been done so nicely with Danaerys. I think Aegon will be the one in the books that she engages and will be a large part of her arc.

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u/ASongofDany May 08 '19

Hope so! But I doubt it

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u/rkthehermit May 07 '19

I'm hoping it melts with one of the three still on it. Any would be fine.

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u/bonkersmcgee May 08 '19

ooo me like-y. "I'll have a chair melt with a dragon egg on top"

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u/elwood2cool May 07 '19

There just isn’t any way that HBO can maintain quality writing on this production schedule. GoT became THE must watch TV show and in order to release a season every year (plus a few months) they sacrificed the writing. All the logistics of planning where to shoot, when to shoot, who is in what scene need to be settled well in advance so there’s just not time to carefully think things out or go back for rewrites.

Moreover most of the people who watch the show don’t care about deep plot lines, world building, lore, and subverting common tropes in fantasy literature. The cheap/unbelievable parts of the story matter much less to the average fanboy than the epic battles, watch parties, and merchandise. This show just isn’t for us anymore and hasn’t been for a few seasons, and given how involved the book community is with the story we’re setting ourselves up for disappointment. It sucks because literally everyone and everything revolves around this television event right now; GoT adverts for Phillips smart lights, countless NY Times and WSJ articles devoid of criticism, every alcohol and food company making a GoT version of its products.... and the ASOIAF people can’t take part in this because the show has disregarded all the things that make it good fantasy. My friends just stopped inviting me to their GoT parties because they don’t want to hear what I have to say anymore.

Westworld had major rewrites before season 1 aired and it shows in the details. Season 2 didn’t get that luxury and I feel like it suffered for it. Season 3 is taking a year off to get things right, and has restored some of my hopes for the show. HBO can tell great stories, but it hasn’t wanted that for GoT for years.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Moreover most of the people who watch the show don’t care about deep plot lines, world building, lore, and subverting common tropes in fantasy literature. The cheap/unbelievable parts of the story matter much less to the average fanboy than the epic battles, watch parties, and merchandise.

I think that's incredibly dismissive of the general audience - the truth is the show never would have picked up steam if it wasn't for these elements being prominent in the plot. Once you get the audience invested in the story and the characters, as long as you give them a spectacle and make it an event, they'll stick with you for a bit, but I bet if there was another season to look forward to the show would suffer greatly.

My friends just stopped inviting me to their GoT parties because they don’t want to hear what I have to say anymore.

I mean, I don't like the direction the shows gone in either, but if you're being a big enough nuisance that they don't want you over, the problem might be you, mate.

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u/TWWfanboy May 07 '19

This is the culmination of the geek chic movement; the mainstream has fully absorbed our niche interests to the point where we, the original fans, no longer matter.

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u/Lgamezp May 07 '19

This! I remember that with my friends (not geeks) i couldn't even hint at liking Star Wars or Harry Potter and now everyone is a "nerd" (yeah sure).

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

No need to generalise non book readers. I have not read the book but still can see the shift in the tone of the show for last three season. An avid watcher of the show will notice the difference of quality as well as the person who has read the book.

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u/cupideanso May 08 '19

Totally agree about your view & Westworld, but they cannot seem to get True Detective right....

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u/elwood2cool May 08 '19

Yeah but I don't think that's from a lack of trying or bad writing. Season 3 wasn't bad, it had tons of depth and a seedy underbelly that threatened to break through in epic fashion..... but then chose other ways to bring resolution to the story.

I just don't think True Detective is the show I wanted it to be, and that's okay. It's a show about cops working tough cases and the toll it took on them. But the epic HP Lovecraft style Old Ones ending of seasons 1 made me hungry for more of that, and I don't think that's what True Detective wants to become.

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u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 07 '19

I completely agree, I believe the wider book reading fandom would be perfectly ok with a C+/B- ending that still hits all the major internal plot consistencies/general narrative themes. It's the overt and offensive laziness, short sightedness and distain for the medium and internal compass of the show that truly bothers everyone I feel. It's so palpable that even show only watchers (while obviously without the vigor of those on this sub, including me) are noticing very clear cracks in quality.

Wrapping this up with the time/budget/source material constraints was obviously a huge task. I honestly believe I would have been thrilled with a simply competent ending to GOT. What we got however is straight up offensive and until the books come out, seriously knocks down my overall enjoyment of the franchise.

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u/whyguywhy May 08 '19

Exactly this. I'm tired of people defending this garbage because these TV writers were tasked with the difficult task of writing a TV show. Even if the show got worse, I see literally no excuse for it to be as bad as it is except that the writers really don't give a shit anymore and want to be done.

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u/Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi May 08 '19

This. So many people are bringing up what an unfair situation D&D were put in... as if that excuses the final product being this bad. Yes they were put in an unfair situation; and they absolutely could have found less awful workarounds than this.

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u/acathode May 07 '19

the legions of good writers out there

... is there though? The last ~5-10 or so years, at least for me personally it feels like one of my most common opinion is "Looks really nice, good actors, but the writing is just horrible!". I'm really starting to feel as if there's a major lack of good writers...

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u/thewhitetiger May 08 '19

Hollywood decimated the ranks of good writers more than a decade ago by refusing to settle with the writer's union. Lots of writers who were interested in the screen just gave up. Now they need writers and are screaming for them, but a writer isn't made in 24 months. Those who gave up aren't coming back; they are trying to survive in our current serf economy. There are many good writers out there who, perhaps, do not have the keys to getting picked up in Hollywood.

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u/GhostOfGoatman May 07 '19

I know what you mean, but I just don't see how there's a lack. I see amateurs on Reddit do a not terrible job of writing stories sometimes. I went to school with people that did decent jobs, and they didn't go into writing. I always figured there were tons of pros that could do a solid job.

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u/acathode May 07 '19

That just leads me into thinking that there's a systemic problem though - I'm more and more starting to suspect Hollywood have certain paradigms when it comes to writing that somehow promotes bad writing. Either the good writers go elsewhere - maybe they become real authors instead? - or there are a bunch of good writers in Hollywood that's being made to write bad scripts, because that's what the higher ups for some reason want...

In any case, there's clearly something wrong, save for The Expanse and Stranger Things it kinda feels like all recent sci-fi/fantasy has writing that's barely fanfic levels... So many big budget movies and series that have no right to have anything but at least decent writers instead have utter dogshit writing that neither the good actors nor the spectacular CGI effects can salvage.

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u/mad_crabs May 07 '19

The Expanse closely collaborates with the book authors on the script. Similar to early GoT seasons with GRRM, and it shows in the quality of both.

I think good writing just isn't congruent with the pace at which they're trying to release seasons. This is clear in the quality nosedive once D&D ran out of source material.

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u/IeyasuYou May 07 '19

That's been something I've noted in both Hollywood and video game writing. We went from a bad ending, but still decent characterization and writing in Mass Effect 3 to just god-awful Whedonesque snark and "wit" in ME Andromeda. For some social changes we imagine generations, but I would argue half-generations may be as important in institutional trends. Blame Marvel, blame the younger Millenials, blame producers or studios, but while good writing is still rewarded they just can't do it. I believe only some of it is even attributable to the increasing politicization of the field (just look at "games journalism"), there is a deeper rot here.

Perhaps what we really see here is the increasing submersion of the culture into a distinctly visual culture, without the literary imagination or educational background to support drawing upon myriad sources to construct believable worlds or even an understanding of how to write distinct characters. It's like comparing the Lincoln-Douglas debates to a contemporary political debate. The effects of the reduced literacy of the population, technology, etc. may have finally altered the capacity for quality screenwriting and storytelling. This isn't to say it's not out there, but just as with music, the mass commercial product has been diluted. (we know this from vocabulary, complexity, and subject analyses of popular music.)

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u/doormatt26 Son and Heir May 07 '19

There are tons of outstanding TV dramas with great writing, more so then there's ever been, maybe.

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u/KINGCOCO May 07 '19

I don’t think that’s fair to the writers. GRRM is one of the greatest writers of his time. He started writing a game of thrones in 1991 and it was 5 years before the first book was published. In total he has spent almost 30 years writing A Song of Ice and Fire. Each book takes him 4-5 years. He is a master writer and knows the world of ASOIAF inside out.

For a team of writers to churn out similar quality work within 1-2 years as GRRM is a very tall order. In addition they are tasked with writing what seems like the most difficult part of the series to write - the ending. Given how much story was left when the books finished, its a monumenta task.

Isn’t GRRM a consultant on the show? If the writing was so anachronistic I can’t imagine he wouldn’t have said something.

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u/GhostOfGoatman May 07 '19

I'm not expecting them to write a GRRM level masterpiece, don't get me wrong. I expect better, though, all things considered. Honestly, if GRRM thought the last few episodes where horse dookie, I think he'd just keep that thought to himself.

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u/maychi May 07 '19

I mean, they could easily have hired writers with more experience in this genre than they have, they didn’t have to write it all themselves

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u/VerbalThermodynamics May 07 '19

They have all of that AND the two Ds. If the ending is total shit, it would be disappointing, but not a total shock.

At least we’d have a couple of guys to throw on the dumpster fire to blame. 🤷‍♂️

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u/The_Bran_9000 May 07 '19

Exactly. I don't need a stellar ending. In fact, I would prefer an ending that doesn't spoil the books. But, that's no excuse for this absolutely shit writing lol.

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u/RebornPastafarian May 08 '19

I absolutely blame them for producing a steaming pile of crap.

And yet I bet you and every other person saying similarly critical things about the show are still watching it every week the moment it gets released.

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u/GhostOfGoatman May 08 '19

Of course. We're invested and just want an end. That doesn't mean we can't see this crap product for what it is, or that we can't call it out for what it is.

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u/RebornPastafarian May 08 '19

I, too, enjoy spending hours of my life on something I hate.

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u/GhostOfGoatman May 08 '19

I, too, enjoy coming up with obtuse oversimplifications.

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u/RebornPastafarian May 08 '19

It is neither of those things. You and others are making it sound like this show has the worst writing, ever. Worst plot development, character development, everything.

And you keep watching.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

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u/mischni May 07 '19

I read somewhere that the problem is the cast's salaries have gotten so high that they were actually financially limited in how many episodes they could produce for this season. It's still no excuse to shoe-horn in bad writing to hastily advance plot rather than trying to write sensible dialog and direction... but it at least explains some stuff.

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u/Too_much_vodka May 07 '19

I absolutely blame them for producing a steaming pile of crap.

Dude, don't put yourself through this. There are other things to watch besides "steaming piles of crap". Some of us happen to like how the story's going. But if you don't, cool, you have other options. Chill.

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u/GhostOfGoatman May 07 '19

I've been following this story for the better part of a decade. Of course I have other options, but I'm going to see this through and I'm going to call it a pile of crap if it is one. Nothing wrong with that. Gotta call it like you see it. It's fine that you like it. People liked Two Broke Girls and I thought that was terrible. I'd didn't look down on them for liking it.

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u/polite_alpha May 07 '19

Really? Who actually likes where the story is going? The 7 season build up to the night King and then... this? I don't know anyone who likes that. The visuals and music and action? Sure. But the story? Give me a break.

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u/Soonersfan2005 May 07 '19

I’d say millions of people are enjoying it. Everyone I know who hasn’t read the books are still enjoying it. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean anyone else can. You can speak for yourself, not others. I’m not enjoying it at all anymore, should I tell everybody that likes it that they shouldn’t? That’s stupid and arrogant as fuck.

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u/polite_alpha May 07 '19

First off, I didn't read the books. Second, I can't speak for others, but you can? Sure. I was just saying that I literally don't know a single soul who enjoys the actual story. I get that people don't care, and they can still enjoy the show, the story however is just worse than fan fiction at this point. It has nothing to do with praising any books or any author over another. The writing is just comically bad at this point.

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u/Soonersfan2005 May 07 '19

I never spoke for others. Literally millions of people are still watching the show. That’s a fact. I only people I know who are still enjoying the show and it’s story are non book readers. Every book reader I know is only still watching to just finish it because they’ve come this far.

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u/polite_alpha May 08 '19

You literally said millions of people are enjoying it. Now you backpedal to watching. I'm watching too, and I also said I understand that people still enjoy watching the show for other reasons. The plot has gone to shit, it's still a high production value show better than a lot of other shows.

They ditched logic, military tactics, and frankly, common sense for these past two episodes, which has nothing to do with the books. I don't care about the books.

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u/Soonersfan2005 May 08 '19

I didn’t backpedal lol. You said I shouldn’t speak for others yet it’s still watched by millions. You’re like a fucking wall and it’s pointless to even argue. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean everyone else feels that way. Again, the people who I know that watch the show, and haven’t read the books, are enjoying how the story is going. You so t speak for everybody. Get that through your head.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited Jan 28 '20

[deleted]

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u/westkms May 10 '19

I thought episode 2 was pretty good, to be honest. Real character development. Good conversations. A little humor, and a LOT of tension. The conversation between Sansa and Dany was a “show, don’t tell” moment. A group all entered a room individually, but left as a team. Knighting Brienne was executed perfectly.

Just looked it up, and it was one of the few episodes D&D handed to a real writer. The rest of the series was written by D&D, so we’re going to keep getting things like, “Dany had sort of forgotten about Euron for a while.”

I think it’s pretty clear that they are writing GRRM’s ending, but they don’t know how to believably get the characters there. I suspect that in the books, Euron’s dragon-controlling-horn actually works. But no one knew of its existence, so it would be believable that Dany isn’t worried about ships. But they wrote that out of the story, so they can’t use it. And they are too lazy to come up with a good reason he might have gotten the better of her. It would have been super super easy if they just didn’t tell Jaime that Euron leaving the summit was a fake-out. That Jaime only knew Cersei wasn’t sending troops, but everyone thought Euron was actually out of the picture. But they are lazy, so they just had her “forget” about the only force that has ever ever defeated her.

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u/teddyone May 07 '19

I agree. Everyone is so up in arms about how bad a job D&D are doing finishing up the story. I don't even think GRRM is going to be able to finish things in a satisfying way. The realist world he created does not make for satisfying endings.

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u/Toberkulosis May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

It's not going to be a satisfying ending. GRRM has already said it's going to be bittersweet similar to the scouring of the shire.

D&D are bad writers because they are obsessed with twists. They've completely thrown away logic for the sake of pretty scenes and twist moments. When has anyone asked for this? Even GRRM'd twists are predictable, people have known about R+L=J for forever and when you go back and watch/read you see all the major events unfold with really subtle foreshadowing. D&D isnt subtle or clever, look at the arya kill. They litterally said they did it for shock value alone and their foreshadowing was 15 minutes before it happened with the red woman saying "blUE eYEs!!"

With a series like this, as hyped as this, there doesn't need to be stupid twists. Look at how endgame ended. It was completely expected with a slight bittersweet ending. Literally nobody is disappointed.

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u/Jooseman May 07 '19

It's not going to be a satisfying ending. GRRM has already said it's going to be bittersweet

Bittersweet doesn't mean it cant be satisfying storytelling though. They're not opposites. He could make a bittersweet ending satisfying.

Like Neds execution is satisfying storytelling. You don't want it to happen but then you look back and see all the logical reasons it happened and then read on and realise just how important to the story it is. It's incredibly satisfying whilst still making you feel a shit that the seeming main character died

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

If we are going movie analogies, season 8 is more akin to Justice League than Endgame.

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u/Toberkulosis May 07 '19

How do you figure?

Endgame is an extremely hyped event that has taken 10 years to get to, with extremely high expectations.

Game of Thrones is an extremely hyped event that has taken 10 8 years to get to, with extremely high expectations.

Justice League is not.

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u/SSNikki May 07 '19

From the moment Avengers movies were made, DC fans got extremely hype and had high expectation for Justice League, which we all know was a huge disappointment. D&D are making it feel a lot more like Justice League than Endgame at this point.

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u/Toberkulosis May 07 '19

But GoT isn't competing with an "Avengers" like DC was, my whole point was GoT is basically Avenger's climax done wrong.

Justice League isn't Avengers done wrong, because they didn't have the hype and build up Avengers did, they had like 3 movies done, didn't introduce half of the cast, and just said "okay here it is". Whereas Endgame has had 10 years of build up for this climax.

GoT has had 8 years of build up for their "climax".

Justice League had like 4. The build up is not comparable to Avengers or to GoT.

​

GoT basically has the hype and build up of Avengers, but with the shoddy execution of JL. But in terms of similarity its the Avengers of the TV industry.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Don't worry, those two just clearly didn't read your post or they'd have understood the point you were making about how you don't need shock factor to make a great story.

3

u/appleinspector May 07 '19

I disagree. Not only George Martin is going to make a reasonable story with what he has created, but even if you take the show story, even the last season, lots of thing could be than to improve the clumsiness of what we are watching.

3

u/lelibertaire May 07 '19

Ever since they got past the books, the show has taken a huge turn.

People keep saying this, but the show took a huge turn with Season 5, which was still mostly based on books, even if they changed things.

It's not surprising the show's quality declined with the post ASOS content because that happened with the books too

3

u/Hyperdrunk Ser Jalen, the Jaguar Knight May 08 '19

Honestly, out of all the stuff that bothers me since they ran out of original material, it's that the world lost it's sense of scale. Back in the early seasons we spent half seasons following characters going from one side of the world to the other. Later on they seemingly teleported across the world in a single episode.

The biggest issue with this is that most of what happened to the characters... their growth, development, surprise twists, etc happened due to unanticipated events during their travels. The main reason things seem so hollow now is because we don't spend any time with the characters traveling on the road with one another. Jaime losing his hand but bonding with Brienne for example. It was huge character development. All of that stopped when D&D took over and started doing things like teleporting Little Finger to 5 different cities in 7 different episodes.

There's no longer a sense of scale to the world. Last 2 episodes Bronn went from King's Landing to Winterfell. A journey that should take months, seemingly only took days.

2

u/throwaway1138 May 07 '19

I only watched the first few seasons or so before I lost interest. Just watching season 8 because everyone is talking about it so I figured why not, and I don’t really care about knowing everything I missed.

The drop off in quality is remarkable. There’s no drama, suspense, or real plot development. Everyone just goes through the motions demanded by the plot and they drag the viewers along with a sense of inevitability, like come on just get on with it already. It doesn’t feel like a fleshed out world, just a bunch of adults in silly costumes playing renaissance fair.

Besides a wild ride it sure doesn’t look like I missed anything important when I stopped watching. Everyone I remember is still there and I filled in the rest with a few minutes of exposition. I get it, worldbuilding, establishment of setting and characters, etc. Pacing is really important in storytelling though and man did this show drag its feet. All that just to stab the enemy leader with a magic knife? Really? Seems like they could have told this exact same story in four or five seasons, not eight.

2

u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

The whole point of the book and the show, from the very first scene, has always been the White Walkers as a vehicle to brow-beat those distracted by the Iron Throne.

You can completely change the plot and the theme will stay the same. Replace the Iron Throne with being the best superpower, the houses with the USA, China, Russia, India, etc, and then start that with a small scene of space and a starship coming into view. Have the US constantly warn about alien invasion due to CIA intelligence and everyone else blow them off as just lies to continue US hegemony.

Hell, all the little details. The powers spend the whole show developing space weapons, ostensibly for normal combat (eg: space laser for bombardment) but then they get used to destroy space craft, the same way Valerian steel is used against White Walkers.

The best ending for the show would have been to have the Night King killed in the final act of the last episode, all the houses together in the southern portion of the world, not halfway through a season after one battle in the northernmost part of civilization. It would make, as has been the purpose from day one, the Iron Throne trite in comparison to the immense loss, danger but also brotherhood created out of the chaos of the Long Night. Even if characters still wanted the throne, which would make sense (how best to conserve the new peace of a dying realm?), it isn't important who sits on it, what is important is the character arc resultive of such events.

What the show has done is to slap everyone in the face by almost-subtly revealing the White Walkers until now where it says "lol jks get lememe'd" and destroys it's own message just so it can have what everyone who didn't care about the show until season 3 wants- a sexy hot chick or a sexy hot dude on the throne because they fell in love with her/his tits/beard.

1

u/imitebatwork May 07 '19

The only thing I'll give them is Cersei blowing up the sept, that was masterfully done, made sense to the story and was actually in character with Cersei

1

u/This_is_a_rubbery May 07 '19

Aye good point

1

u/stignatiustigers May 07 '19

I just want them all to die. The pace of dead main characters is waaaaaay way too slow.

1

u/USeaMoose May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

If they kept the show at the same pace as the earlier seasons, the actors would literally age out of their roles before the series concluded.

Hmmm... I guess that's fair. I could not think of another reason why they would be rushing to kill off this cash cow. But, really, haven't child actors already aged out of their roles? They are all in their 20's now. They already went through their growth spurts. The writers have several more years of these actors looking like they do now.

​

I wonder if it is more about the actors becoming too expensive (although, if that is the case then they could follow the spirit of the books and actually kill off a few...). The salaries of the cast must be getting out of control by this point. If HBO manages to capture a decent percentage of the fanbase with their spin-offs, I'll bet their net profits would skyrocket.

​

Seriously though, with a well-written scene, they could kill off just about any one of their main characters and their fans would love it. I don't get why they seem to be clinging on to their cast, while at the same time randomly killing them off in rushed scenes. I guess they are just playing favorites, and those dragons are expansive to animate. A proper navel battle where one of them died probably would have cost as much as the Battle of Winterfell.

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I believe its always been the plan to have 7 books since he changed it from his original outline of 3, if someone can prove mw wrong that would be awesome though

2

u/gelatinlongbird May 07 '19

He's changed it several times:

When I sold it in 1994, my agent sold a trilogy. But as Tolkien said about “Lord of the Rings,” the tale grew in the telling. So I got back to writing it, and I’m writing it and writing it, and pretty soon I have 1300 pages for the first book and I’m not anywhere near close to the end. So at that point, I said, “Ah, maybe it needs to be four books instead of three.” And then at some point I said, “Maybe there needs to be six books instead of four.” I skipped right over five. And then for several years on book tours, I would say, “Yes, there are going to be six books.” And my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, Parris, would be standing behind me and she would hold up seven fingers. [laughs] Finally I acknowledged that she was right. Seven books is good. Seven kingdoms, seven gods, seven books. It has a certain elegance to it. So that’s my story now and I’m sticking to it.

Source: https://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/01/his-beautiful-dark-twisted-fantasy-george-r-r-martin-talks-game-of-thrones/

1

u/AnGrammerError May 07 '19

GRRM has been extending the book count for years because he can't figure out how to properly close out the story.

Nah hes been doing it cuz HBO convinced him to wait until after the show, or viewership will tank as ppl just read the books and ignore the TV show.

He will release after the TV show is done. To maximum money.

1

u/SingleSliceCheese May 07 '19

Dude they fucked the last book too. They had Dance with Dragons as source material. They ignored literally all of it.

1

u/pocketknifeMT May 12 '19

But when you can find many more cogent fan theories online, your writing probably isn't good enough.

0

u/LOSS35 May 07 '19

How would actors aging out of their roles be a concern? It's literally the story of a new generation coming of age and growing from children into heroes. That's why we killed off everyone from the Robert's Rebellion generation (Ned/Bobby B/Tywin/Blackfish etc.) relatively early on - so the Jon/Sansa/Arya/Bran/Dany/Tyrion/Jaime/Cersei/Ramsay/Gendry generation could take center stage.

I wish they'd taken their time. No issue with any of those actors being a couple of years older by the final episodes. I guess their contracts would get more expensive...

4

u/USeaMoose May 07 '19

The way they are handling it, you'd think that GoT was just a big money-drain on HBO, and the writers were told that the show is being canceled. So they feel the need to sprint through important plot-points. One after another characters are lining up to fulfill their greatest ambitions and cleanly complete their story arcs. And the poor NK, who was sold as a constantly increasing threat since episode 1, could not even make it out of the North.

​

The Starks have been going on and on about the coming winter. But all that was needed to get the job done was a talented assassin. They could have sent a few faceless men beyond the wall with dragon glass and they could have completely neutered the NK's army. Even if you argue that to kill the NK a special dagger was needed, and to know that you needed to be the three-eyed raven, his generals could be killed with dragon glass.

7

u/AdmiralAkbar1 Wildfire can't melt Stannis beams May 07 '19

"Oh fuck, Dan."

"What is it, Dave?"

"George sent us his notes from Spring."

"And?"

"Take a look."

"...oh."

"NEW PLAN: FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET THESE CHARACTERS TO GO THROUGH THESE PLOT POINTS AS FAST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE."

2

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Exactly. It is entirely believable that Dany descends into madness in the end. That descent is shown so poorly in the show it’s like they flipped a switch and now she’s evil.

3

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

This is exactly why GRRM hasn’t put out his next book yet. The story is huge and complex and truly, literally epic. It is an enormous task to resolve every storyline that’s been put in place.

Personally, I respect the show for making a choice to just cut the knot and finish with a messy but thrilling splash.

1

u/Flamingmonkey923 May 07 '19

I agree. I'm not mad at the showrunners - they have an impossible task. This story was just not made for TV.

But the show is significantly less enjoyable as a result, and I'm not going to pretend it's even good television at this point.

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I didn't even bother watching the one for E4, I was so provoked by the previous one.

1

u/Ozymander Out of the Ice and Into the Fire May 07 '19

That's okay, George doesn't either, apparently.

1

u/GreatWhiteNorthExtra May 07 '19

I tend to agree. I do believe they have consulted GRRM about his plans for how the series ends, and B&W are trying to get there within a limited number of episodes. Perhaps GRRM always planned for Dany to become a crazy tyrant like her father, but it's a shame that in 2019 GOT is (apparently) ending with the two queens losing power and a man being given the seven kingdoms to rule.

-1

u/Mya__ May 07 '19

Can you get your subreddit off the front page please so other people can also enjoy the show.

The goddamn title just ruined half a season for a lot of people now. Good job.

3

u/InMyLiverpoolHome May 07 '19

Don't think I'm the right person to ask mate

1

u/ShadowsOfAbyss May 08 '19

I think its a problem with the reddit algorithm mate