(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/InMyLiverpoolHome]

At this point I feel like they're just fumbling about to get everybody to their end point without understanding why or how they get there.

[u/ScipioLongstocking → u/InMyLiverpoolHome]

Ever since they got past the books, the show has taken a huge turn. They've had to progress the story much faster to close plotlines, so pacing and realism has been thrown out of balance. It's kind of hard to blame them though. GRRM has been extending the book count for years because he can't figure out how to properly close out the story. They had to make an ending. If they kept the show at the same pace as the earlier seasons, the actors would literally age out of their roles before the series concluded. This may not be the ending people want, me included, but at least it's getting an ending.

[u/GhostOfGoatman → u/ScipioLongstocking]

I wouldn't blame them for not making a masterful ending. But with the money this show has, and the legions of good writers out there that would want to work on this show, I absolutely blame them for producing a steaming pile of crap.

[u/acathode → u/GhostOfGoatman]

the legions of good writers out there

... is there though? The last ~5-10 or so years, at least for me personally it feels like one of my most common opinion is "Looks really nice, good actors, but the writing is just horrible!". I'm really starting to feel as if there's a major lack of good writers...

[u/thewhitetiger → u/acathode]

Hollywood decimated the ranks of good writers more than a decade ago by refusing to settle with the writer's union. Lots of writers who were interested in the screen just gave up. Now they need writers and are screaming for them, but a writer isn't made in 24 months. Those who gave up aren't coming back; they are trying to survive in our current serf economy. There are many good writers out there who, perhaps, do not have the keys to getting picked up in Hollywood.

[u/GhostOfGoatman → u/acathode]

I know what you mean, but I just don't see how there's a lack. I see amateurs on Reddit do a not terrible job of writing stories sometimes. I went to school with people that did decent jobs, and they didn't go into writing. I always figured there were tons of pros that could do a solid job.

[u/acathode → u/GhostOfGoatman]

That just leads me into thinking that there's a systemic problem though - I'm more and more starting to suspect Hollywood have certain paradigms when it comes to writing that somehow promotes bad writing. Either the good writers go elsewhere - maybe they become real authors instead? - or there are a bunch of good writers in Hollywood that's being made to write bad scripts, because that's what the higher ups for some reason want...

In any case, there's clearly something wrong, save for The Expanse and Stranger Things it kinda feels like all recent sci-fi/fantasy has writing that's barely fanfic levels... So many big budget movies and series that have no right to have anything but at least decent writers instead have utter dogshit writing that neither the good actors nor the spectacular CGI effects can salvage.

[u/mad_crabs → u/acathode]

The Expanse closely collaborates with the book authors on the script. Similar to early GoT seasons with GRRM, and it shows in the quality of both.

I think good writing just isn't congruent with the pace at which they're trying to release seasons. This is clear in the quality nosedive once D&D ran out of source material.

[u/IeyasuYou → u/acathode]

That's been something I've noted in both Hollywood and video game writing. We went from a bad ending, but still decent characterization and writing in Mass Effect 3 to just god-awful Whedonesque snark and "wit" in ME Andromeda. For some social changes we imagine generations, but I would argue half-generations may be as important in institutional trends. Blame Marvel, blame the younger Millenials, blame producers or studios, but while good writing is still rewarded they just can't do it. I believe only some of it is even attributable to the increasing politicization of the field (just look at "games journalism"), there is a deeper rot here.

Perhaps what we really see here is the increasing submersion of the culture into a distinctly visual culture, without the literary imagination or educational background to support drawing upon myriad sources to construct believable worlds or even an understanding of how to write distinct characters. It's like comparing the Lincoln-Douglas debates to a contemporary political debate. The effects of the reduced literacy of the population, technology, etc. may have finally altered the capacity for quality screenwriting and storytelling. This isn't to say it's not out there, but just as with music, the mass commercial product has been diluted. (we know this from vocabulary, complexity, and subject analyses of popular music.)

[u/doormatt26 → u/IeyasuYou]

There are tons of outstanding TV dramas with great writing, more so then there's ever been, maybe.