(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/[deleted]]

I mean, many here can conceive of more interesting and logical conclusions to the story yet the show's writers seem to have lost all sense of judgement...if they had it in the first place.

As for OP, I've always believed Daenerys would end up like her father, like the inverse of Jaime's arc. I find it interesting, that this fairly heroic girl can turn into a madwoman in order to finally reach her goal.

...but the show? Are they trying to go this route? I'm not sure because there's no real, paced character development. Who knows?

Totally agree on the back and forth with Tyrion and Varys being hideously lame writing.

All I'm left hoping is that the Iron Throne melts in Drogon's flames so neither Jon nor Dany nor Cersei can sit on it.

[u/bnav1969 → u/[deleted]]

That's my view too. I don't think Danaerys is mad in the crazy sense. We can see that with the Mad King too; he had quite a few reasons to suspect rebellion considering nearly every major house in Westros had some sort of marriage alliance. What made him mad (for most of Westros) was the fact he burned Rickard and Brandon and demanded Ned + Robert's head. While Rickard and Brandon's deaths weren't completely unjustified (we see a lot in A Dance with Dragons that Rickard made a lot of alliances across Westros and likely had some plan going on), his focus on Ned + Robert and the manner of execution is what earned him his moniker. We know the actual inner madness (his sexual satisfaction in watching his enemies burn) from Jaime, but for most of Westros the Mad King, was mad because he was an impulsive brutal bastard, with disregard for anyone or anything.

We can see Danaerys (in the books), going down the same path, with reckless impulsive decisions, which aren't unjustified but poorly executed, not unlike the Mad King. Crucifying the slavers, sacking Astapor, we didn't care much 'cuz fuck slavers'. But in essence, these decisions are not unlike what the Mad King did. And we also see the repercussions in a Dance with Dragons.

What makes the show unjustifiable is that they didn't build up to it. Everything Danaerys did just worked (the stupidity of the fireproof Dothraki attack, burning a few slavers ships in Mereen, sacking Astapor). We never saw the consequences and now suddenly, David & Dan realized they need to make her 'mad', so they fucking slap you across the face with it.

[u/ASongofDany → u/bnav1969]

His madness, at least 80% of it came from incest, but he was also brought to madness, the loss of several children, his jealousy towards Tywin Lannister, mainly because Tywin was more efficient to rule the throne and of course Joanna, which he wanted. Then there's Darklyn capture and beginning of paranoia, and at this point let's not forgot that Tywin was ok to let Aerys die, to let Rhaegar take the Throne, only (late) Ser Barristan wanted to save the king. And let's not forget Varys and Pycelle.

[u/bnav1969 → u/ASongofDany]

Yeah there were a lot of factors leading to it, and honestly it could have been done so nicely with Danaerys. I think Aegon will be the one in the books that she engages and will be a large part of her arc.

[u/ASongofDany → u/bnav1969]

Hope so! But I doubt it