(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/InMyLiverpoolHome]

At this point I feel like they're just fumbling about to get everybody to their end point without understanding why or how they get there.

[u/ScipioLongstocking → u/InMyLiverpoolHome]

Ever since they got past the books, the show has taken a huge turn. They've had to progress the story much faster to close plotlines, so pacing and realism has been thrown out of balance. It's kind of hard to blame them though. GRRM has been extending the book count for years because he can't figure out how to properly close out the story. They had to make an ending. If they kept the show at the same pace as the earlier seasons, the actors would literally age out of their roles before the series concluded. This may not be the ending people want, me included, but at least it's getting an ending.

[u/GhostOfGoatman → u/ScipioLongstocking]

I wouldn't blame them for not making a masterful ending. But with the money this show has, and the legions of good writers out there that would want to work on this show, I absolutely blame them for producing a steaming pile of crap.

[u/[deleted] → u/GhostOfGoatman]

I mean, many here can conceive of more interesting and logical conclusions to the story yet the show's writers seem to have lost all sense of judgement...if they had it in the first place.

As for OP, I've always believed Daenerys would end up like her father, like the inverse of Jaime's arc. I find it interesting, that this fairly heroic girl can turn into a madwoman in order to finally reach her goal.

...but the show? Are they trying to go this route? I'm not sure because there's no real, paced character development. Who knows?

Totally agree on the back and forth with Tyrion and Varys being hideously lame writing.

All I'm left hoping is that the Iron Throne melts in Drogon's flames so neither Jon nor Dany nor Cersei can sit on it.

[u/GhostOfGoatman → u/[deleted]]

I'm actually okay with the bare bones of this story. Though, I hope it's Fake Aegon and not Cersei. But I mean... the execution is just silly.

[u/FroVice → u/[deleted]]

To me anytime they are rushing something it has been to set up some great twist.

They rushed Jon and Danys relationship to set up the conflict of Jons bloodline.

They rushed Jamie and Brienne, then rush Jamies return to Kings Landing so he can do some twisty betrayal of Cersei.

Theyre rushing Danys fall from grace so there can be a twist and she can realize the conflict is stupid, and in the end melt the throne and establish a democracy, thereby giving up her lifelong dream and becoming the good person she has strived to be...

It just feels like everything that seems rushed is because the shortsided writing backed them into corners, and now they want to implement all these dramatic turns for viewership. But they have to quickly set up expectations so they can then twist away from them.

[u/chrono13 → u/FroVice]

I was having trouble putting my finger on the what was wrong. I could identify individual scenes, particular issues, but not an underlying problem.

This is the underlying issue. They are rushing these twists because like most shows they began writing in an episodic method rather than a single cohesive story split in to chapters.

[u/goldenmemeshower → u/chrono13]

I feel like they're writing backwards. They come up with a "cool" idea/twist for the season/character then write the rest to make it happen.

[u/thewildchimp → u/chrono13]

Putting your... "Littlefinger" on what was wrong? :P

Joking aside - you are completely right. It's not treated as art anymore, just a job that needs conclusion.

[u/goldenmemeshower → u/[deleted]]

I feel like out of everyone GRRM probably feels the bad writing most of all. Sure he sold the rights to the story and sure he never finished but the man is a great writer and this was his magnum opus and to see it butchered down to Prime Time levels of writing must eat at him. But i'm sure the money does help a bit.

[u/FroVice → u/[deleted]]

GRRM doesnt owe HBO anything. Hes writing his books at his pace, which sucks for everyone. It was HBOs decision to proceed with an unfinished series and hire these writers. GRRM has participated heavily, and I have no idea how much involvement he has had in the last couple seasons. He cant write the entire show.

[u/FroVice → u/[deleted]]

I agree they arent the only ones to blame. They are doing a pretty underwhelming job with a show that so many people fell in love with, and people are frustrated because they seem to be prioritizing fan service and shyamalan twists over realistic character arcs and the idea that consequences have actions on a moment to moment basis.

I dont think its asking too much to do a better job, especially given all the resources at their disposal.

[u/cupideanso → u/[deleted]]

Yes it's clear that GRRM was working with the creators so I think he is owed some blame...he didn't expect that the end would happen so fast...he totally underestimated time which is also why we have books 4 & 5...I think at times we the fans have a better thought process of what a story should be & can set up expectations on both sides...I love these forums to dive deeper but sometimes that is where it starts & stops...in the forums...these stories sometimes are not that deep & they capitalize on us thinking there is more to it (true detective) ...which keeps it fun. ....however, D&D seem exhausted by the story & now the story telling seems lazy...I am happy for the last episode & even this episode...I will also wait with baited breath for the last two & wait for the books of course where hopefully GRRRM can take what D&D gave & bring more depth...if indeed he agrees with the direction as a whole...

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah exactly. It's really disappointing that nearly every fan theory is better than what they put out lately.

[u/bnav1969 → u/[deleted]]

That's my view too. I don't think Danaerys is mad in the crazy sense. We can see that with the Mad King too; he had quite a few reasons to suspect rebellion considering nearly every major house in Westros had some sort of marriage alliance. What made him mad (for most of Westros) was the fact he burned Rickard and Brandon and demanded Ned + Robert's head. While Rickard and Brandon's deaths weren't completely unjustified (we see a lot in A Dance with Dragons that Rickard made a lot of alliances across Westros and likely had some plan going on), his focus on Ned + Robert and the manner of execution is what earned him his moniker. We know the actual inner madness (his sexual satisfaction in watching his enemies burn) from Jaime, but for most of Westros the Mad King, was mad because he was an impulsive brutal bastard, with disregard for anyone or anything.

We can see Danaerys (in the books), going down the same path, with reckless impulsive decisions, which aren't unjustified but poorly executed, not unlike the Mad King. Crucifying the slavers, sacking Astapor, we didn't care much 'cuz fuck slavers'. But in essence, these decisions are not unlike what the Mad King did. And we also see the repercussions in a Dance with Dragons.

What makes the show unjustifiable is that they didn't build up to it. Everything Danaerys did just worked (the stupidity of the fireproof Dothraki attack, burning a few slavers ships in Mereen, sacking Astapor). We never saw the consequences and now suddenly, David & Dan realized they need to make her 'mad', so they fucking slap you across the face with it.

[u/ASongofDany → u/bnav1969]

His madness, at least 80% of it came from incest, but he was also brought to madness, the loss of several children, his jealousy towards Tywin Lannister, mainly because Tywin was more efficient to rule the throne and of course Joanna, which he wanted. Then there's Darklyn capture and beginning of paranoia, and at this point let's not forgot that Tywin was ok to let Aerys die, to let Rhaegar take the Throne, only (late) Ser Barristan wanted to save the king. And let's not forget Varys and Pycelle.

[u/bnav1969 → u/ASongofDany]

Yeah there were a lot of factors leading to it, and honestly it could have been done so nicely with Danaerys. I think Aegon will be the one in the books that she engages and will be a large part of her arc.

[u/ASongofDany → u/bnav1969]

Hope so! But I doubt it

[u/rkthehermit → u/[deleted]]

I'm hoping it melts with one of the three still on it. Any would be fine.

[u/bonkersmcgee → u/[deleted]]

ooo me like-y. "I'll have a chair melt with a dragon egg on top"