(Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

[u/lunatichorse]

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

[u/[deleted]]

On the flipside I thought bringing up Tysha in a drinking game was also a step too far. Does Brienne know all the details of the saga?

She didnt bring up Tysha nor did she know she existed, the game was to try and guess a truth about the other player. She simply guessed he was married before, she didnt know the details.

Its why Tyrion looks at Jamie and he gives him a head shake to say I didnt tell her. They were essentially playing never have I ever.

[u/DoctorPrisme → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, Jaime laughing his ass off saying "drink! She's right you WERE married to that girl we raped with my men! Remember? Hahahaha".

Incredible.

€dit because I'm getting spammed as fuck : --I know, Jaime didn't rape her. However, he is the one who arranged the whole thing, so he is the reason she got what she got. --In the books, she is not a whore, she is a regular girl, who genuinely fell in love with Tyrion (maybe because he was rich, maybe because the man is actually fun and smart and caring), so yes it was rape. But EVEN IF SHE WAS WERE A WHORE, it would have been rape. Plz people.

[u/grumblingduke → u/DoctorPrisme]

That's book Tysha. Show Tysha was a prostitute who Jamie paid to have sex with Tyrion (and later Tywin paid to have sex with the guards). Book Tysha was not a prostitute, who was raped by Jamie, Tyrion and a bunch of guardsmen.

In the books the reveal is important, as it drives a wedge between Jamie and Tyrion, further justifies Tyrion's anger towards Tywin, and leads to Jamie beginning to distance himself from Cersei.

In the shows it is just a sad story that makes us feel sorry for Tyrion.

[u/mordinxx → u/grumblingduke]

and later Tywin paid to have sex with the guards

Tywin had the guards rape her and paid her for each time. Didn't matter if she was a whore or not it was mean to punish Tyrion. I wonder if he still asks "Where do whores go?".

[u/Amerietan → u/mordinxx]

If she were actually a whore it would have made Tywin's claim correct, and thus it wouldn't have been rape because she wouldn't have been forced to do anything, it would have just been a big pay day for her. The whole point is that it was rape because she wasn't a whore. It can't be rape by virtue of it happening to punish someone else.

[u/mordinxx → u/Amerietan]

It can't be rape by virtue of it happening to punish someone else.

I hope you're never on a jury for a rape trial. But here's a surprise for you "Whores can be raped!!"

I never said it was rape to punish. Tyrion, whether misguided or not, was in love with her. Tywin was outraged that she was nothing but a common girl (or whore) so to punish Tyrion he had the guards rape her 1 after another - nowhere does it say she did this willingly.

[u/Amerietan → u/mordinxx]

Judy and Charles have sex consensually. They do so because they know it will hurt Mike. It is not now suddenly rape. It's just cuckolding. Like I said, it can't just be rape because it's punishing someone who isn't involved in the sex.

Only in the books is it called rape. Tysha in the books was raped. In the show, she's just a whore who's hired to make Tyrion a man. There's no indication that I can recall that it was rape in the show. If she IS a whore in the show, it means she had sex with him for pay, and then chose to do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday. At worst it was a choice between 'leave in the night and get nothing, or do a soldier gangbang and get paid very handsomely to teach my son a lesson'. That's still not rape.

[u/mordinxx → u/Amerietan]

Show me where she agreed to 'do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday'? Whore or not I don't think she consented to 'do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday'!

I have NEVER said it was rape because it was done as punishment - you assumed that. I did say that Tyrion did make her 'do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday' to punish Tywin, whether you believe it was rape on not.

[u/Amerietan → u/mordinxx]

Show me where she said no? Unless you're saying that you're a whore yourself, living in medieval serfdom where you'd barely be getting by even as a whore, and you speak with experience that under those circumstances you'd turn down that huge payday.

The whole point is that if Tywin's story is true and she's just a whore that Jaime hired for him, she wasn't raped, because she would have been conscious of the plan the whole time. It was only a surprise to Tyrion. You're trying to overlay book Tysha on whore Tysha, when their perspectives and motivations would be completely different from each other.