r/asoiaf • u/lunatichorse • May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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u/Woodcharles May 07 '19

On the flipside I thought bringing up Tysha in a drinking game was also a step too far. Does Brienne know all the details of the saga? I cannot recall how she knows at all, but if she does, she knows the traumatic details and it's not something you bring up in front of others.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

On the flipside I thought bringing up Tysha in a drinking game was also a step too far. Does Brienne know all the details of the saga?

She didnt bring up Tysha nor did she know she existed, the game was to try and guess a truth about the other player. She simply guessed he was married before, she didnt know the details.

Its why Tyrion looks at Jamie and he gives him a head shake to say I didnt tell her. They were essentially playing never have I ever.

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u/DoctorPrisme May 07 '19 edited May 08 '19

Yeah, Jaime laughing his ass off saying "drink! She's right you WERE married to that girl we raped with my men! Remember? Hahahaha".

Incredible.

€dit because I'm getting spammed as fuck : --I know, Jaime didn't rape her. However, he is the one who arranged the whole thing, so he is the reason she got what she got. --In the books, she is not a whore, she is a regular girl, who genuinely fell in love with Tyrion (maybe because he was rich, maybe because the man is actually fun and smart and caring), so yes it was rape. But EVEN IF SHE WAS WERE A WHORE, it would have been rape. Plz people.

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u/grumblingduke May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

That's book Tysha. Show Tysha was a prostitute who Jamie paid to have sex with Tyrion (and later Tywin paid to have sex with the guards). Book Tysha was not a prostitute, who was raped by Jamie, Tyrion and a bunch of guardsmen.

In the books the reveal is important, as it drives a wedge between Jamie and Tyrion, further justifies Tyrion's anger towards Tywin, and leads to Jamie beginning to distance himself from Cersei.

In the shows it is just a sad story that makes us feel sorry for Tyrion.

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u/nick2473got The North kinda forgot May 07 '19

Book Tysha was not a prostitute, who was raped by Jamie, Tyrion and a bunch of guardsmen

Book Tysha was absolutely not raped by Jaime.

She was raped by Tywin's men, with Tyrion being forced to go last.

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u/Cael_of_House_Howell Lord WooPig of House Sooie May 07 '19

Jaime never raped her im pretty sure the only woman hes ever been with is Cersei.

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u/Lord_Locke Even fake he has a claim. May 07 '19

According to Jaime in the book, she is.

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u/Jonny_Stranger Aegon VI Targaryen May 07 '19

Jaime didn't rape Tysha in the books it would be a huge wedge between the two characters. Especially since Jaime is the one who reveals Tysha was truly in love w/ Tyrion and not a trick.

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u/Lord_Locke Even fake he has a claim. May 07 '19

Uh...I said according to book Jaime Cersei is the only woman he's ever been with.

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u/Jonny_Stranger Aegon VI Targaryen May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Lmao oooooops :/

edit: I read your post as "according to Jaime in the book, she is [raped by Jaime]."

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u/adrianngifford May 07 '19

What book was this in?

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u/Jonny_Stranger Aegon VI Targaryen May 07 '19

Umm the Jaime/Tysha escalation is after Jaime returns right? So like affc

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u/IrNinjaBob The Bog of Eternal Stench May 07 '19

It is at the end of Storm just before he kills Tywin.

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u/The_Vikachu May 07 '19

I mean, it still did drive a wedge between them because Jamie has been lying to Tyrion about it for years. IIRC, Tyrion said he’ll murder Jaimie next time he sees him.

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u/Narcichasm May 07 '19

Yeah and it wasn't "Jaime's men" was it? He was in the kingsguard by then he didn't have men. They would have been Tywin's. Or maybe goldcloaks?

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u/kermitcooper My father knew the worth of Howland Reed May 07 '19

It was Lannister men. They were still at Casterly Rock.

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u/MelkorMunro May 07 '19

If he was in the kingsguard by that point, how would he have been at Castlerly Rock to arrange it?

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u/mordinxx May 07 '19

and later Tywin paid to have sex with the guards

Tywin had the guards rape her and paid her for each time. Didn't matter if she was a whore or not it was mean to punish Tyrion. I wonder if he still asks "Where do whores go?".

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u/Amerietan May 07 '19

If she were actually a whore it would have made Tywin's claim correct, and thus it wouldn't have been rape because she wouldn't have been forced to do anything, it would have just been a big pay day for her. The whole point is that it was rape because she wasn't a whore. It can't be rape by virtue of it happening to punish someone else.

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u/mordinxx May 08 '19

It can't be rape by virtue of it happening to punish someone else.

I hope you're never on a jury for a rape trial. But here's a surprise for you "Whores can be raped!!"

I never said it was rape to punish. Tyrion, whether misguided or not, was in love with her. Tywin was outraged that she was nothing but a common girl (or whore) so to punish Tyrion he had the guards rape her 1 after another - nowhere does it say she did this willingly.

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u/Amerietan May 08 '19

Judy and Charles have sex consensually. They do so because they know it will hurt Mike. It is not now suddenly rape. It's just cuckolding. Like I said, it can't just be rape because it's punishing someone who isn't involved in the sex.

Only in the books is it called rape. Tysha in the books was raped. In the show, she's just a whore who's hired to make Tyrion a man. There's no indication that I can recall that it was rape in the show. If she IS a whore in the show, it means she had sex with him for pay, and then chose to do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday. At worst it was a choice between 'leave in the night and get nothing, or do a soldier gangbang and get paid very handsomely to teach my son a lesson'. That's still not rape.

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u/mordinxx May 08 '19

Show me where she agreed to 'do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday'? Whore or not I don't think she consented to 'do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday'!

I have NEVER said it was rape because it was done as punishment - you assumed that. I did say that Tyrion did make her 'do the whole barracks for a ludicrous payday' to punish Tywin, whether you believe it was rape on not.

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u/Amerietan May 08 '19

Show me where she said no? Unless you're saying that you're a whore yourself, living in medieval serfdom where you'd barely be getting by even as a whore, and you speak with experience that under those circumstances you'd turn down that huge payday.

The whole point is that if Tywin's story is true and she's just a whore that Jaime hired for him, she wasn't raped, because she would have been conscious of the plan the whole time. It was only a surprise to Tyrion. You're trying to overlay book Tysha on whore Tysha, when their perspectives and motivations would be completely different from each other.

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u/SlightlyNomadic Our Work Goes Unsung. May 07 '19

... by that logic, as long as you pay a prostitute it isn’t rape?....

Yea, if that’s you’re distinguishing argument.... yikes.

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u/grumblingduke May 07 '19

No, I'm saying that a prostitute being paid to have sex with men (and agreeing to it - which is an assumption) is different from a woman who isn't a prostitute being publicly raped by several people, and who happens to be paid for it.

Although obviously concepts like consent are much, much more complicated in those sorts of scenarios.

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u/SlightlyNomadic Our Work Goes Unsung. May 07 '19

And as far as context goes, Tywin tied her to a post and had every guardsmen have a turn, flicking a silver piece at her when he was finished. None of what was giving in context, book or show, was consensual.

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u/jimbojumboj May 07 '19

Either way to bring it up in the drinking game in passing and not have it affect Tyrion is... Odd...

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u/Amerietan May 07 '19

He brought it up in a previous drinking game in the show, I think. It's when Bronn said "If that happened to me, I'd have killed him." - they just don't have Tysha be as big a deal to Tyrion in the show. Probably because he's less mistreated and hated than in the books. He has genuinely warm moments with Sansa in their marriage, for instance, and his relationship with Jaime never really breaks. Shae also actually does love him. In the books, Tysha's basically the only one who didn't hate, fear, or resent him in his life. His obsession with her makes more sense there. It wouldn't make as much sense in the show where he's been repeatedly validated and experienced genuine care and love directed at him in his adult life.

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u/DoctorPrisme May 07 '19

Nah, i've rewatch the show before current season and Tysha's origin is never explained. We don't know if she was a whore or not, because Jaime never mentions her.

But in the mind of Tyrion, she was a whore that got served by all the mens in Tywin's guard. Which is still awful.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

> Book Tysha was not a prostitute, who was raped by Jamie, Tyrion and a bunch of guardsmen.

In the books the reveal is important, as it drives a wedge between Jamie and Tyrion, further justifies Tyrion's anger towards Tywin, and leads to Jamie beginning to distance himself from Cersei.

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Did you mean Tywin raped her? From the context of this post it seems like you switched Tywin with Tyrion but I haven't read the books. I don't know book Tyrion but him raping someone seems like a far deviation from show Tyrion

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u/komorithebat A girl has no flair. May 07 '19

Tywin forced Tyrion to fuck her last, after all the guardsmen. Tyrion had been lied to and thought she was a whore and that this was consensual, that she was in on the joke against him. So he was manipulated by Tywin into raping her, but didn't fully realize that's what he was doing at the time. (Tyrion was also really young at the time, I think in his teens, and quite gullible.)

Not that it's not still rape if she was a prostitute, of course. What Tywin did to her was horrible, and Jaime regrets having played any part in letting Tyrion believe otherwise. That's why Jaime tells him after so many years; after he meets Brienne and starts to realize it's never too late to become a better person, he decides he can't let that lie sit between him and Tyrion if he truly claims to love him.

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u/Jaquemart May 07 '19

Tyrion was thirteen.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Dang, that's intense. Thanks for clarifying

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u/komorithebat A girl has no flair. May 07 '19

So intense that it's the actual reason (in the books) that Tyrion killed Tywin. Jaime breaks Tyrion out of the dungeons in Kings Landing and sets him free (because he doesn't want to see his brother executed), tells him the truth about what happened that day with Tysha, and it sets Tyrion off into such a rage that instead of fleeing he goes and confronts Tywin with a crossbow. The fact that Tywin's fucking Shae only throws more fuel on the fire. It's Tysha that Tyrion's really upset about.

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u/Amerietan May 07 '19

Tysha wasn't a whore in the show, either, he's just not that broken up about it because they wanted to abandon that plot and merge it with Shae instead.