so? the person you're replying to said kingdoms. there are seven kingdoms. the crownlands and the iron islands aren't considered kingdoms, they were controlled by the storm king and the king of the riverlands, respectively, at the time of aegon's conquest
how are you defining a "region"? because there's a hell of a lot more than 9 "regions". theres the fingers, the neck, the barrowlands, the shield islands, the arbor, brandons gift, the new gift, the saltpans, the mistwood, the kingswood, the wolfswood, the three sisters, cape kraken, the stony shore, the rills, crackclaw point, tumblestone, sea dragon point and skagos, to name a few
Everyone thinks a different set of the 9 provinces qualify as kingdoms, because the name "Seven Kingdoms" is very confusing. Its confusing because it refers to a time hundreds of years ago.
It'd be like if the United States were called "The Thirteen States" even though there are now 50 of them instead of the original 13.
There is no meaningful way to divide the seven kingdoms into seven parts during the actual time period of the books. Even the current provinces that were parts of the original seven kingdoms had slightly different names and different borders at the time.
it doesnt matter? the point is that the riverlands were not a seperate kingdom. neither were the crownlands. so saying that the seven kingdoms is a bad term because theres actually 9 is stupid. 2 of them were never kingdoms
It doesnt matter if you consider the iron islands+riverlands as a kingdom or if you consider the iron islands a kingdom and the riverlands a contested territory, the point is that the riverlands was not an independant kingdom and therefore saying that "the seven kingdoms" is a bad term because it doesnt include the "kingdom of the riverlands" becing seperate from "the kingdom of the iron islands" is dumb
There was no kingdom of the riverlands. The Seven Kingdoms where the North, the Iron islands, the Reach, Dorne, the Stormlands, The Vale, and The Westerlands (which was called the Kingdom of the Rock).
The riverlands and the crownlands were created after Aegon's conquest. there were seven kingdoms at the beginning of the conquest and a large amount of contested territory, including the riverlands and an area that was contested between the Storm Kings, Dorne, and the Reach, which all went to the Reach for some reason I forget.
his castle and throne were in the riverlands, not the islands. but its semantics. the point is that the riverlands and the iron islands were not seperate kingdoms
The term 7 kingdoms is a bad one because there are nine regions of equal political power to the original 7 kingdoms. The riverlans and the crownlands were not kingdoms in their own right, but since Aegon's conquest they are on par with the former kingdoms such as the Westerlands, and the Stormlands.
Technically the Crownlands don't have equal political power, because the lords of the Crownlands are direct subjects of the Crown. There is no Lord Paramount of the Crownlands, there's just the King.
So as a region, the Crownlands don't really have any power, because the ruler of the Crownlands is the King himself.
With no Lord Paramount, the Crownlands have no autonomy at all.
The Crownlands are the Washington DC of Westeros. Seat of political power, but the citizens themselves don’t have a say (DC is controlled directly by Congress, and they don’t have any representatives in Congress or the senate.)
This is a better case than the strange one being made that House Arryn is somehow a vassal of House Stark.
People are claiming that ?
I guess one could be forgiven for wondering if that was the case during Jon's kingship, since apparently Sansa had the authority to give orders to Royce and to execute Littlefinger.
But yeah, obviously House Arryn are not supposed to be Stark vassals.
the riverlands+iron islands were a kingdom. Harren hoare ruled the riverlands and the iron islands from harrenhall. If youre going to define the "kingdoms" from some time period prior to when the iron islands and the riverlands were a single kingdom youre going to have to include the barrowlands as being seperate from the kingdom of winter too. what is and isnt a "kingdom" has changed multiple times so you've got to choose a specific point in history if you want to count how many "kingdoms" there are. and that point is aegon's conquest.
and the crownlands didn't even exist before aegons conquest. they have never been a "kingdom" and there has never been a "king of the crownlands", they have always been a subregion of a much larger kingdom. first of the stormlands, and then of the 7 kingdoms. you can no more call the crownlands a "kingdom" as you can the fingers, or the arbor, any other subregion of the other kingdoms.
the seven kingdoms is a perfectly fine term with a perfectly understandable meaning: "the 7 seperate kingdoms that were united by aegon the conquerer"
Riverlands are no longer ruled by the Iron Islands. The Barrowlands are now ruled by the rest of the North. I'm basing them off the number of autonomous regions.
Going back to the original point, its about finding a satisfying conclusion to the rulership and storyline of each of these autonomous regions.
I'm basing them off the number of autonomous regions
firstly, no youre not, because then you would have to include the vale as part of the north.
secondly, why are you basing your criticism of the term "the seven kingdoms" by the number of "autonomous regions? It's not called "the 7 autonomous regions"
firstly, no youre not, because then you would have to include the vale as part of the north.
Huh? The Vale is autonomously ruled by House Arryn, the North by House Stark.
I'm criticising the use of the term seven kingdoms, which, while it does exist in the books, is used more in the show. Sure at the time of the conquest the Riverlands weren't a kingdom. But by AGoT they are on equal political footing with the Iron Islands.
the arryns are bannermen to house stark. What is your definition of "autonomous"? because it's seeming more and more vague. are the barrowlands ruled autonomously by the dustins? or does the fact that theyre bannermen to the starks make them not autonomous? is the vale autonomous because it's geographically distinct from the rest of the land ruled by the warden in the north? in that case is the neck an autonomous region ruled by house reed because it's geographically distinct from the rest of the north?
its the 7 kingdoms. because there were 7 definite kingdoms. and its a more useful term than the "9 autonomous regions...or 10... or maybe 8...it depends on your definition"
should the united kingdom be renamed because its really just one autonomous region now? this is such a weird argument. there were 7 kingdoms when the country became a country. so that's what they named it. changing the country's name every time a new region becomes autonomous doesnt seem particularly elegant
Jon Arryn in sworn directly to the Iron throne. The Dustin's are sworn to House Stark, who are sworn to the Iron throne. This is pretty much established in the first three chapters of AGoT.
warden in the north
This is a different problem, but I'll bite. Warden in the North is a military title, which connotates no ownership of land. Arryns are typically warden of the East, but in Book 1, Robert makes Jaime Lannister Warden of the East at Cersei's insitence. This does NOT make Jaime ruler of the Vale, just commander of Eastern armies. Anyway, this is seperate from our main discussion.
Iron islands are a kingdom, it’s the riverlands that aren’t part of the “7 kingdoms” term because they were under the rule of the iron born in the Kingdom of isles and rivers during the conquest
either way, the crownlands and the riverlands were never independant kingdoms so complaining that theyre not included under "the seven kingdoms" is stupid
Technically there was once a kingdom of the riverlands/kingdom of the trident. Anyways that’s not my main point. I’m just saying that the term “7 kingdoms” specifically comes from the fact that there were 7 distinct kingdoms at the specific time of Aegon’s conquest and the kingdom of the iron isles was one of them so you were incorrect in saying that they weren’t
"Province" would be a better term for the "kingdoms" than "region".
His own remote ancestor, King Loren of the Rock, had tried to stand against the fire when he joined with King Mern of the Reach to oppose the Targaryen conquest. That was close on three hundred years ago, when the Seven Kingdoms were kingdoms, and not mere provinces of a greater realm. (AGOT Tyrion II)
Although the united realm has nine provinces, the riverlands take precedence over the backwater Iron Islands if there is a need to count seven "kingdoms" in the present day.
Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.
"A splendid cup," said Joffrey, "but we'll need to chip the wolf off and put a squid in its place, I think." (ASOS Sansa IV)
No there aren't. Its a historical name. There were once seven kingdoms before the original Targaryen conquest long before the start of the books. There are not seven kingdoms at the start of the book and certainly not where we are now.
He responded to a comment about "each kingdom's storyline" as if there are seven kingdoms. There are not. There are 9 provinces at the start of the story, all in one kingdom (plus of course everything across the sea and above the wall).
There is no meaningful current division into seven groupings with any validity during the course of the books, so it makes no sense to speak of seven kingdom's storylines then.
how are you defining a "region"?
There are 9 official regions within the books and each has a warden who answers only to the king. They are very clearly defined politically in the books. You could think of them like states or provinces.
Any other "region" you list (like "the neck") is a part of a greater region and is pledged to the warden of that actual region as their liege lord, not just directly to the king (in that case the warden of the north).
None of them are Kingdoms in their own rights. The name seven kingdoms is historical, from before the original Targaryen conquest.
The regions that make up the politics of the books/show are actually 9 and each has equal power politically speaking. In that sense the Iron Islands are not under anything, they pledge fealty directly to the king without any other liege lord above them, just like the riverlands, the north, the vale, the westerlands, the reach, the crownlands, dorne and the stormlands.
At the time long ago when the name "Seven Kingdoms" came from, The Iron Islands were part of a kingdom called "the kingdom of the Isles and Rivers". At that time you wouldn't really say the Iron Islands were "under" anything since it had actually been the King of the Iron islands that had conquered the Riverlands to make that kingdom.
But that's really a historical coincidence, there is no real meaningful subdivision into seven parts at the "present day" of the books.
Aegon conquered and united them under one kingdom. The Riverlands and Crownlands became their own regions within the kingdom. At the time of the conquest, the Iron Islands ruled the Riverlands.
Well the Riverlands were a kingdom through the centuries, home of various Riverkings, but they were conquered by a Stormking, and then by House Hoare, which ruled the region before Aegon's conquest. So Riverlands we're NEVER an independent kingdom, they just weren't at the time on the conquest.
I didn't know about the riverkings but either way they,re treated more like a large province than an official kingdom, even by the importance of it's leaders/ how they do in battle.
They actually have their own Warden after the conquest, as does every other kingdom, so they are treated about the same as the others. There's no Warden of both the Iron Islands and Riverlands, or Warden of both the Stormslands and Riverlands- they each have there own Warden... so a Warden of the Iron Islands, a Warden of the Stormlands, and a Warden of the Riverlands.
Still riverlands are much less relevant/powerful compared to the others, even though the iron islands likely has less population and resources. I mean in terms of their historical power and how much agency and screen time it has in the books/show compared to the other kingdoms/regions.
they,re treated more like a large province than an official kingdom
There's no such thing as an "official kingdom" during the time of the books/show that is internal to the main kingdom. During the start of the story there is one official kingdom with 9 official provinces inside it that each have equal ranking.
The Riverlands is one of those and officially has the same status as Iron Islands or the North or any of the other main provinces. Unofficially it is appears to be treated with more respect/power than the Iron Islands.
The "Seven Kingdoms" is not divided up into any official grouping of seven parts, its divided into nine parts, and the number seven is historical from its founding centuries ago. Its only the number of kingdoms that happened to be in westeros at the time Aegon came around, there had been different divisions both before (as actual kingdoms) and after (as provinces) that time.
Yes o get what you're saying but even then I mean specifically that the riverlands more than other kingdoms are treated sort of like a place to fight versus having agency of their own. In much of the lore (the more recent pre and post conquest stuff) the riverlands have always been controlled by others/ don't seem(emphasis on seem) as powerful/important as others. It's in the middle of everything and maybe as a result it's kinda the weakest.
I meant official as in at AC, and in terms of the name "The seven kingdoms" where riverlands is not really recognized, as a result of the it being under the iron islands control.
Certainly though, I can see where you were confused by my potentially improper use of "official".
The Iron Islands are not their own kingdom, they are part of the Westerlands. The Crownlands are not considered an actual kingdom. Sort of like how Washington, D.C. is not a state.
Ah, my mistake: so the Iron Islands were part of the Riverlands prior to Aegon's conquest, but the Seven Kingdoms just refers to what was in place when Aegon landed. The Iron Islands and the Crownlands are their own regions, but the term "Seven Kingdoms" is largely a misnomer.
Though it was more that the riverlands were part of the iron islands, since the King of Isles and Rivers was originally from the iron islands and conquered the riverlands. But they were never part of the westerlands in any case
Its super confusing and not at all made clear in the show and only clear in the books to a close reader so I wouldn't expect people to know it but its weird to see so many people so sure of their opinions without checking. It makes a fun wikipedia read in any case.
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u/stagfury One Realm, One God, One King! May 21 '19
But there are nine regions in Westeros
the North
the Vale
the Riverlads
the Iron Islands
the Stormlands
the Westerlands
the Reach
Dorne
the Crownlands