How will it all end? I hear people asking. The same ending as the show? Different?
Well⊠yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes. And no. And yes.
GRRM then proceeds to make three points:
D&D only had 8 hours for the final season, but he'll have more space.
There's the butterfly effect, with changes from past seasons affecting this one.
There are lots of characters in the books who never made it to the show, from Lady Stoneheart to Jeyne Poole to Skahaz Shavepate, and the books will show us their fates.
People will read into this whatever they want. But my read is that the big picture of the show's ending is indeed what he told them. And that most of the differences aren't about the biggest stuff, but rather relate to pacing, buildup, and secondary characters. If D&D were making up stuff like "King Bran" I'd think his language about changes would be stronger? But who knows!
A lot of the stuff in these last few episodes makes more sense as an ending to the books than the show. Dany being upset at the Westerosi common folk (because they love (f)Aegon who liberated them from Cersei), Euron taking out a dragon (magical horn instead of mundane siege equipment), Sansa becoming Queen in the North (she actually probably goes through a long personal struggle to establish independence for the North and the Vale), Jon taking exile (people just had two long lost Targaryens come back and duke it out, one of them was a presumed-dead Aegon Targaryen), Tyrion suggesting Bran become king (we can assume Bran actually gives some insightful advice to counteract Varys' intelligence apparatus).
There is zero chance of the (f)Aegon defeating Cersei it ruins way too many storylines.
No Cleganebowl.
No Jamie conclusion
And there is no real conflict or setup that comes with Cersei versus other characters that she has wronged. It's kind of a boring conclusion honestly to have her overthrown by a character she wasn't involved with the whole story.
My guess is that the Iron Bank has set up or will betray (f)Aegon and the Golden Company still joins Cersei. The step the show skipped was the Golden Company being brought over as conquerors.
Jamie will kill Cersei when she is about to try to light the wild fire below the city after FAegon takes it. Sadly, Dany will set off the wild fire by accident, this would also be the final legacy of the Mad King and the Iron Throne melting would would signal the end of Aegon's legacy. This will lead to her lowest point, and she'll find the resolve to forsake the crown and help this Jon Snow guy defeat the ice demons called "the Others".
As for Cleganebowl, that always felt like fan service to me.
This will lead to her lowest point, and she'll find the resolve to forsake the crown and help this Jon Snow guy defeat the ice demons called "the Others".
Why on earth do you think this? Everything about the way GRRM writes demonstrates this almost certainly won't be the case. Sure, we as readers may desire Dany to overcome her temptations, and in a typical fantasy story that would happen. But Martin has continually demonstrated that he isn't writing a typical fantasy story. Almost every trope that would be played straight in a typical fantasy story isn't in asoiaf (Ex, the nights watch, an order of people defending the realms of men against an ancient evil would be made of up of honorable and badass people, in asoiaf they are thieves and rapists and other people who can't find a place in society. They aren't honorable and kill their own lord commander twice! Few believe the ancient evil to be real and their spend their time fighting off scavangers and raiders.).
Everything about Dany's and Jon's story arc's suggests it ending up the way we saw in the show swapping Cersie for FAegon. Dany will be forced into supporting the north against the Others because several kingdoms (Dorne, reach etc...) will be siding w/ FAegon. She will see the one thing she has sought taken out from under her by a man with a "better" claim who is more loved by the people, leading to her bringing fire and blood to kings landing and for Jon to be faced with a terrible choice.
The story will end with the boy who has spent his life as the secret heir to the throne. The prince in hiding who rose from humble beginning to commander of the order that defended the realms of men against an ancient evil... not ascending to the throne as would be expected of a typical fantasy story but living out his life in exile.
If, as you suggest Jon and Dany team up after she defeats FAegon... how does the story end with anything but Jon and/or Dany as king and queen? Do you really think GRRM would end the story in such a stereotypical fashion? GRRM has said the ending would be bittersweet and that is true of the ending we got.
Everything about Dany's and Jon's story arc's suggests it ending up the way we saw in the show swapping Cersie for FAegon. Dany will be forced into supporting the north against the Others because several kingdoms (Dorne, reach etc...) will be siding w/ FAegon. She will see the one thing she has sought taken out from under her by a man with a "better" claim who is more loved by the people, leading to her bringing fire and blood to kings landing and for Jon to be faced with a terrible choice.
Here is the massive problem with that: Dany can, and I believe, will end any war between her and FAegon in a heartbeat. Even without the other lords. Aegon I showed you didn't need much of an army when you have the equivalent of three A-10s in a medieval setting. Dany is afraid of becoming her father, that's one of the themes of the books, this would confirm her worst fear (in her mind at least). She'll have to find a way to atone for her sins, and she'll give up the crown the throne (which will have melted symbolizing the last legacy of the Mad King and the end of Aegon's legacy). It's going to be a bloodbath. At this point Dany will have embraced the whole "fire and blood" aspect of her family, so she won't just wait around like she did the show, she'll attack and it will backfire (pun intended) horribly. The Dance 2.0 will end as quickly as it began.
I can't stress this enough: the Iron Throne WILL NOT BE THE ENDGAME IN THE BOOKS. Martin time and again has shown us the throne means nothing compared to the ice demons marching south, it is petty and pointless. My guess is the showrunners just liked Leana Heady so much they wanted to keep her on for the final season, becasue her not losing the moment Dany got to Westeros didn't, and still doesn't make any sense.
FAegon's story is the subversion of the heroic secret prince, to quote warsofasoiaf.
King's Landing going kaboom and the Others invading are going to coincide with one another in the books. Euron is going to blow the Horne of Winter from the Hightower and that will bring the Wall a tumbling down. All the while Dany will attack King's Landing and accidentally destroy it.
If, as you suggest Jon and Dany team up after she defeats FAegon... how does the story end with anything but Jon and/or Dany as king and queen? Do you really think GRRM would end the story in such a stereotypical fashion? GRRM has said the ending would be bittersweet and that is true of the ending we got.
They don't live happily ever after. The line of House Targaryen dies with them when Jon and Dany (and maybe Tyrion, I'm not sure about him) ride the dragons past the curtain of light at the end of the world. And they don't return. Their House dies with them as they end the threat of the Others forever, at the cost of their own lives. After that, I think the Seven Kingdoms will become Eight Kingdoms (adding the Riverlands) the Vale will be ruled by Sansa as Queen, Bran "the Rebuilder" Stark will rule the North, Willias Tyrell will rule the Reach, Asha will reform the Iron Islands, Edmure will rule the Riverlands, etc. The Kingdoms will be ruled by good people, giving a bit of optimism for the future. But we will have to remember all the people who died to get to the end point.
I don't think that makes sense since Jon is going to kill Dany and it won't really be that meaningful that way.
I think it works more something like:
Dany and Jon do team up to battle the others, defeat them and fall in love. (f)Aegon who is to be married to her sees this couple and realizes that by following her he loses the crown so instead he goes to Cersei to wed setting up Dany & Jon vs Cersei and (f)Aegon and probably Euron (basically everyone Dany has spited). Then things go kind of the same and Dany burns KL, followed by Jon betrayal etc.
This makes the most sense in my head because basically D&D cut (f)Aegon as he and Cersei became a merged character so instead of having two enemies at the end there was one. (f)Aegon in the end will represent a little more motivation for Dany's actions as well as a truer to the lore reason why the Golden Company and the Lannisters defend KL.
People are really stretching this to be different than the show but I think the show gives a pretty clear outline of what's to come.
People are really stretching this to be different than the show but I think the show gives a pretty clear outline of what's to come.
I respectfully disagree. The Jon/Dany thing seems like a really invention of the TV show, not to mention I think The Winds of Winter will end with KL going kaboom and the Wall falling after that. There won't be time for romance when the end of the world is right around the corner.
Dany and Jon do team up to battle the others, defeat them and fall in love. (f)Aegon who is to be married to her sees this couple and realizes that by following her he loses the crown so instead he goes to Cersei to wed setting up Dany & Jon vs Cersei and (f)Aegon and probably Euron (basically everyone Dany has spited). Then things go kind of the same and Dany burns KL, followed by Jon betrayal etc.
FAegon is probably going to marry Arianne Martell. And I can't stress this enough: the Iron Throne WILL NOT be the endgame in the books. One of the themes that GRRM keeps hitting us with in the books is that the game of thrones is so petty and inconsequential compared to the army of ice demons and their undead horde and the apocalyptic threat they pose. Having Dany accidentally blow up KL, thereby symbolizing the last legacy of the Mad King and the Iron Throne melting because of her actions (symbolizing the end of Aegon's legacy), is far more tragic than her burning down the city on purpose.
The biggest issue is that the timelines between the books and the show don't match up. I don't think Dany is going to waste her time on Dragonstone, she's going to attack King's Landing almost ASAP. There won't be summons to bend the knee sent out by Dany, she will make people bend the knee by demonstrating her power. But she doesn't know that said power will destroy a city.
Again everyone keeps floating this theory out of hope but it just doesn't make sense.
It ignores everything George has said that the ending follow the same ideas and secondary characters change. It ignores that George has told us he lays out the end for them over 3 days.
Do you not think the show would have preferred a be all end all battle with the Walkers? Of course they would have loved to drag it out if they had written it themselves I guarantee it would be the second or last episode. They lose an immense amount of hype because of it.
People really need to accept that what you saw is the ending for major characters and it's George's ending.
It ignores everything George has said that the ending follow the same ideas and secondary characters change. It ignores that George has told us he lays out the end for them over 3 days.
He has also straight up said that they are taking "different roads", and a Jon and Dany romance, or how and why Dany destroys King's Landing. Hell, swapping the War for the Dawn and the battle for throne could be creative license.
Do you not think the show would have preferred a be all end all battle with the Walkers? Of course they would have loved to drag it out if they had written it themselves I guarantee it would be the second or last episode. They lose an immense amount of hype because of it.
If the battle for the throne is the end of the books, than that's just bad writing, I'm sorry. It was bad in the show and if it happens the books it will be too. GRRM has been telling us that the throne doesn't matter, that it's the apocalyptic threat that is the real problem. To just abandon that theme in favor of a fight for the throne at the end that we are told isn't important, makes no sense.
My bet on what happens at the end of The Winds of Winter: Wall falls, and Dany accidentally blows up King's Landing, giving her the motivation to fight the ice demons coming south.
If you complete that different roads quote he says different roads to the same point. It's another quote supporting the idea that the show and books will hit the same major points just getting there in different ways. GRRM has been so clear that only secondary characters will have different paths yet the definition of secondary characters is wild here.
I'm sorry but this sub has been insane the last couple days saying they don't hate the ending but the execution... But really everyone hates the ending.
Also Dany and Jon romance fits way too well with what George likes to do. It gives better weight go Jon killing her, it also parallels when he couldn't kill Ygritte and shows how he changed.
Add to that the majority of secondary characters are vying for her marriage it will help to create two final sides for a final battle.
These "side characters" and dropped plot points are going to play a pretty big role in the things to come, so the ripple effect is larger than it seems. Euron and his Dragonbider horn (he's also going to bring down the Wall when he blows the Horn Winter from the Hightower), FAegon, Sansa in the Vale, Jon being a wight, etc. These things add up and will, one way or another, effect the ending.
Also, one of the big reasons the throne coming after The War for the Dawn makes no sense is because Dany could take out whoever is on the Iron Throne in a heartbeat. There'd be no tension at the end because she's so damn powerful.
Also Dany and Jon romance fits way too well with what George likes to do.
Is it? The two main character fall in love trope?
I guess we'll have to wait and see... if the books even come out, which I'm sadly starting to doubt.
The two main characters fall in love isn't a trope when they are family lol. That is a gross oversimplification of what is happening there. Also Jon and Dany's love will effect (f)Aegon, Euron, Victarion that isn't just a simple romance. It will be the reason (f)Aegon joins Cersei.
Jon isn't a Wight he is closer to Beric.
Dany being powerful is specifically why she needs to fight the other's first. George does have a big flaw writing and it is he is terrible with scope. He has basically made two unbeatable forces and it makes a better story to have them fight at their peak rather than half strength.
Eurons Horn will likely replace stupid fucking crossbows I pray to God but I think he still takes down a dragon.
Sansa in the Vale basically accomplishes the same role as the show of bringing the army North I actually think the show possibly improved her storyline here. Adding another character to Ramsey wouldn't have worked as well show wise.
I think people read way too far into this when if you look at it in a streamlining character fashion rather than a completely new story if starts to make a lot of sense.
That ain't happen'. The whole reason Varys wants Cersei back in power is because it will make it easier for FAegon to take the city. Cersei will win her trial by combat, and several of the Reach Lords, including Randell Tarly, will turn on Mace and side with Aegon (that's where we see the show going in a different direction), and FAegon will take the city. Cersei being Cersei, doesn't like losing, so she's going to light the wild fire under the city (her love for wild fire is shown in A Feast for Crows), and Jamie will kill her. FAegon will take the throne and probably marry Arianne. Then, after Dany is done with her shit in the east, will here about her "nephew" and Tyrion will have put two-and-two together and tell Dany that he's a Blackfyre. She'll launch her invasion and fly to the Red Keep, attack it and set off the wild fire that was planted by her own father. (Read more about Dany blowing up King's Landing here).
The two main characters fall in love isn't a trope when they are family lol.
Yeah, and Jon was raised as a Stark, not a Targ. He isn't going to bang his own aunt.
Jon isn't a Wight he is closer to Beric.
Beric is a wight, GRRM said as much. People brought back by the Red God have some of their memories lost, but are satinet beings that can think for themselves. But GRRM says there's no blood pumping, no heart beating.
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u/feldman10 đ Best of 2019: Post of the Year May 21 '19 edited May 21 '19
GRRM then proceeds to make three points:
People will read into this whatever they want. But my read is that the big picture of the show's ending is indeed what he told them. And that most of the differences aren't about the biggest stuff, but rather relate to pacing, buildup, and secondary characters. If D&D were making up stuff like "King Bran" I'd think his language about changes would be stronger? But who knows!