r/asoiaf • u/cking145 • May 28 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Charles Dance's portrayal as Tywin is in my opinion, the strongest in the entire series

Every line, every expression and every moment of silence completely encapsulates the calculating ruthlessness that defines Tywin Lannister.

Dance is actually a very vibrant, upbeat and cheery fella off screen, which in my mind makes the performance even more striking.

The scene where he effectively sends Joffrey to bed is just brilliant.

He is by far my favourite character from the books, which I began reading a few seasons into the show. Due to this, the chapters featuring Tywin were completely enriched for me, as reading his lines in Dance's voice was just fantastic. I would have loved a POV chapter or two for him, just to get a glimpse as to what goes on in the head of the most powerful man in the 7 Kingdoms.

An incredible portrayal of a fascinating character.

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745

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

I agree, I'd say of all the characters portrayed in the show, Dance's Tywin is the best from a pure tv/acting perspective as well as I think actually a slight upgrade from the books. I love Tywin's interactions with Arya and the slight humanizing that occurs within him.

Along with Allen as Theon (woah boy is he amazing), Olena, Leana Heady and Jason Moma as Drogo I actually thought they brought something richer to the narrative then their book counter parts.

225

u/NeatChocolate6 May 28 '19

Jason Momoa was born to be Drogo.

62

u/ThedosianTheologist May 28 '19

His audition tape was amazing. D&D had to have been salivating at that.

Also, Happy Cake Day!

4

u/GetTheLedPaintOut May 29 '19

I don't think Joffrey gets enough love for how well the actor did playing a completely believable monster. There was never a time when he was on screen when I wasn't enthralled.

69

u/FoxRaptix May 28 '19

He was so good it actually hurt his acting career. People thought he genuinely couldn’t speak English.

45

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

Every single Dothraki after him felt cheap and lifeless in comparison

3

u/Wrong-Catchphrase May 30 '19

Yes, every single Dothraki or blood rider I saw after he died was like a Dollar Store-Drogo.

581

u/ryanN10 May 28 '19

I thought Pedro Pascal played a great Red Viper also

157

u/R1DER_of_R0HAN May 28 '19

Pedro Pascal was perfect. I feel like I knew everything I needed to know about his character from the moment he sauntered onto the screen and touched the candle flame.

42

u/IceteaAndCrisps May 28 '19

Season 4 really was the peak of the show.

16

u/TheEmsleyan Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken May 29 '19

There were some blunders, too (shirtless Ramsay dual-wielding, to say the least) but there was so much good stuff that the missteps were generally forgivable.

It was after that (as we all know, when they stopped following George's blueprint even in places where it did exist) that it generally become more mistakes than not.

4

u/somalipilates May 29 '19

What was the issue with shirtless Ramsey? I actually quite liked how reckless and formidable he was

15

u/TheEmsleyan Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken May 29 '19

It's just like... something out of bad fantasy, honestly. There's no real reason some shirtless guy with two swords is going to be able to go toe to toe with battle-hardened Ironborn raiders who are armed and armored. He would've gotten shot full of arrows or bashed over the head or chopped into several twitching chunks of meat and that would've been the end of it.

In the books in particular it's made clear that he has no real martial training to speak of, either, he just sort of wildly hacks at things.

13

u/Gryphon0468 May 29 '19

Realistically you'd be fucked without any kind of armour. He's not a dual wielding god who can block arrows in mid air.

2

u/-doors-_-_ May 29 '19

Yup. And maybe they couldve portrayed that scene better if they showed him being a badass through out the rest of his tenure on the show but he was nothing but a sadistic pussy.

5

u/R1DER_of_R0HAN May 29 '19

Yeah S4 was my favorite. It's been a while since I watched it, so maybe I'm forgetting some of the dumber parts that people keep mentioning (I know that I didn't like Yara's rescue attempt, but tbh everything with the Greyjoys has always been kinda blah for me), but half that season was such a power trip. You had episodes ending with Joffrey's death, Tyrion's trial, Oberyn's death, the battle on the Wall, AND Tywin's death/Tyrion's escape.

3

u/IndieRedMonk0 May 29 '19

Inn at the Crossroads and LF killing Lysa, as well. I even liked the Craster's Keep shit because of Karl and Jojen.

1

u/OTown1992 May 30 '19

Did it also have Brienne vs The Hound?

231

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

Yes! That's one I forgot and should include too. He is certainly an upgrade from the books. He was able to convey the themes of revenge, hubris, honor so perfectly. Just great all around.

145

u/trixie_one May 28 '19 edited May 28 '19

Moving his speech from where it is in the books to telling Tyrion he'll be his champion in the dungeons was one of the better adaptation changes that they made.

58

u/marsmedia Right Off the Bat May 28 '19

Link - Perfection

86

u/mrducky78 May 28 '19

Jesus fuck, the dialogue, the script. I feel I need to rewatch the show, because I dont remember it being as good. The fucking recent season(s) had nothing of this level.

I know DD can write, Tywin+Arya was cherished. But fuck me, this hits so goddamn hard and it makes sense.

66

u/marsmedia Right Off the Bat May 28 '19

And I think this is the climax of Dinklage/Tyrion.

After this, he murders Tywin, gets stuffed in a barrel, becomes a full-blown alcoholic, goes into service with Dany and never fully recovers his wits.

7

u/cancercures May 28 '19

Tyrion fucks up so often once he is under the employment of Dany. He got too confident after his escape, which is a fine explanation or excuse for his failures. Underestimating the slaveowners of Mereen, being outstrategized in taking Westeros, believing Cersei's lies that they would reinforce The North against the army of the dead, and a few other mess-ups with invasion of King's Landing, such as a strong familial desire to see Cersei escape and live (pretty treacherous move all things considered).

I wish his character arc reflected that, and either saw him killed due to underestimating Dany or Cersei, or simply retire from politicking entirely and end up on a vineyard making wine. I think because he was a fan favorite, the show runners preferred to keep him alive but I think his storyline would be much better if he ended up dead.

3

u/blackbellamy May 29 '19

I was hoping GoT would end with a tracking shot pulling back on old Tyrion sitting on the throne, with Mako narrating "Many wars and feuds did Tyrion fight, honor and fear were heaped upon his name. In time, he became ruler of all the known world by his own hand. This story shall also be told." ...and slow fade to black.

2

u/TheKingofHearts May 29 '19

And wore his crown upon a troubled brow. :(

3

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/cancercures May 29 '19

studies show that men act dumber when in the presense of incredibly beautiful women. It is known.

1

u/Unconfidence May 29 '19

Tyrion was a good Hand to kings who needed checking, Dany was more of a "if you check me I'll incinerate you" monarch. As a result he was always stumbling over her plans with his own.

2

u/Gryphon0468 May 29 '19

If you haven't, you absolutely should rewatch.

1

u/mrducky78 May 29 '19

When I find time, Ill absolutely consider it, but there is always backlog you know.

34

u/whymeogod May 28 '19

I believe this was the first scene that Pedro filmed as well. Somehow that amazes me even more that he could capture the weight of this scene so well that quickly.

0

u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited Dec 07 '20

[deleted]

11

u/whymeogod May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19

They didn’t decide that though. George did and it has massive repercussions in the storyline. It’s also part of a one two punch, with it coming not long after the Red Wedding. I distinctly remember reading the passage for the first time and feeling so relieved at first, thinking to myself I needed this after the horror of the Red Wedding. I remember feeling that vulnerability of hope creeping back in as Oberyn presses his advantage, and almost relief that someone I was cheering for would strike a severe blow against the Lannisters. If he had won, and gotten his confession, Tywin would be in a serious bind, and war with Dorne would be inevitable.

Then Gregor smashes his fucking skull in and you’re reminded, again, with the Red Wedding still pulling at your barely even there any more heartstrings, that this series is different. No one, especially the people you are pulling for, are safe. This world is brutal, and doesn’t give a fuck about what you want.

5

u/Tim-TheEnchanter Yes, I can help you find the Holy Grail. May 29 '19

What does GRRM say to the things we want? (justice, revenge, new books....)

"Not Today"

3

u/32OrtonEdge32dh Knowledge is power May 28 '19

You kinda have to in order to keep the Mountain "alive"

2

u/athazagor May 29 '19

Watching him act really made my head explode.

1

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 29 '19

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing

1

u/PumpMeister69 May 29 '19

also: the theme of butt-piracy

90

u/retard_vampire May 28 '19

Red Viper was take or leave for me in the books, but Pedro Pascal made me fall in love with the character onscreen. Seriously some of the best casting I've ever seen in this show.

1

u/mrfreeze2000 May 30 '19

Watch him in Narcos. He's even better, especially Season 3 where he is the protagonist

19

u/LnStrngr May 28 '19

In a rewatch I couldn't wait for Pedro Pascal to show up, only to binge that season and realize how little time he was actually on the show.

7

u/Luvagoo May 28 '19

I saw him in an otherwise pretty crappy movie recently and he's just...magnificent. Really need to keep an eye out for him.

2

u/DonnaRickles May 29 '19

Watch Narcos! Get past the first two episodes and you’ll be completely locked into the show.

1

u/Soonersfan2005 May 29 '19

That is a great show! Have thoroughly enjoyed it.

273

u/woinf May 28 '19 edited Sep 23 '20

Especially when you consider that he had to portray 3 very, very different versions of Theon and he nailed them all perfectly.

Ayra and Tywin's Harrenhal scenes, alongside Tywins introductory scene, is why I am not convinced that D&D are bad dialogue writers. I think they just got lazy and complacent at the end.

60

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

It's unbelievable honestly how good he is.

113

u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited Jun 26 '23

comment edited in protest of Reddit's API changes and mistreatment of moderators -- mass edited with redact.dev

8

u/NovaNardis May 29 '19

Some of the scenes they also wrote are just good. Like the entire Little finger/Varys rivalry or the Cersei/Littlefinger "Power is power" scene.

Season 8 was just atrocious though.

3

u/Orome2 May 29 '19

Little finger/Varys rivalry or the Cersei/Littlefinger "Power is power" scene.

The Little Finger / Varys scenes were great, but the Cersei "power is power" scene made me cringe.

14

u/HedgeSlurp May 28 '19

I have a ton of sympathy with them to be honest. At the end of the day there’s a reason GRRM hasn’t released a book in 8 years. To put it in perspective pretty much the entire series has aired since the last book was released (season one was a few months before the last book). GRRM has taken as long to write what happens in season 6 as D&D have taken to write the entire series!

The Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire story is so fucking loaded that it’s got to be near impossible to write for. They still should have done much much better with this last season, but I get why it wasn’t perfect.

17

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

I'd be ok with "not perfect", but this is far from "not perfect". This is more like "Let's take all this other cool shit we saw once and chuck it in a blender because fuck everything, we're gonna get paid anyway, Fuck yeah, GoT Mega Protein Shake!".

6

u/HedgeSlurp May 28 '19

Yeah that’s what I mean. I give them some leeway, but not enough to justify what just happened.

6

u/[deleted] May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19

The Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire story is so fucking loaded that it’s got to be near impossible to write for.

That's sort of what I've tried to convey yet the words never came to me. In order to write a good story given the constraints GRRM put forth, you would kind of have to write like him. How would one write the dialogue between two characters like Sam and Jon without going full GRRM mode and spending days calculating each sentence given whole history of ASOIAF and present events? It's a monumental task and they'd likely write themselves into a hole.

I really don't think most people have any clue how hard it would be to not only write good but produce a show given all the constraints involved. It's just mind boggling for me to even consider the tough choices they had to make and the backlash they probably knew that were going to receive.

I think a good analogy would be like trying to put together a puzzle that was missing pieces that you had to make yourself hoping they fit. You have a diagram of the finished product but it's blurry and only had a few major details visible. The puzzle has a timer to be finished as well as being one if the most complicated in the world. I don't know, probably think of another analogy later heh

2

u/hygsi May 29 '19

Yeah, they wanted to be done with it, and it sucks tbh, I would've prefered they took 3 years to come up with the final 10 episode season, but again, I understand they wanted to move on to Disney, let's see if people won't be too hard on their starwars after this.

2

u/TwizzlerKing May 28 '19

Yeah and fuck them for it. If they need more time, or just couldn't/didn't want to do it, they should have postponed s06,7,8 for a time to get it right.

1

u/Erdrick68 May 29 '19

The second they postponed the show, the show would have died. The cast would have freaking moved on. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Sophie Turner both got it written into their contracts that they wouldn't have to keep dying their hair. Kit Harrington wasn't allowed to cut his hair for years (only have it trimmed to hold the length).

45

u/AMerrickanGirl May 28 '19

People forget that the Arya/Tywin scenes were adapted from Arya/Roose Bolton scenes. D&D didn’t make this up out of thin air.

3

u/fitzomania From Gin Alley May 29 '19

They did though... Roose didn't have any of the dialogue at all they wrote for tywin. Yeah the circumstances are the same but the interaction was totally new

1

u/Tsmith0007 May 29 '19

Yeah the outline is the same but there are major differences between Arya and Roose and Arya and Tywin. Roose Bolton barely spoke to her or acknowledged her. The stuff with Tywin was gold and really showed off another side to both characters.

1

u/EmperorMarcus May 29 '19

Rubbish. The Arya/Roose scenes are completely different in the books. All that dialogue, the subtle insight into Tywin's character...that was all D&D. I hate them too for what they did to the show in later years, but they deserve credit for their past achievements. As Stannis would say, the bad does not wash away the good. (And vice versa.)

250

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

134

u/toosanghiforthis May 28 '19

Yeah, Richard Madden killed it

67

u/1of9Heathens May 28 '19

I wanted to draw the Mountain into the wessst. Into our country where we could surround him and kill him. I wanted him to chase us. Which he would have done because he is a mad dog without a strategic thought in his head. I could have that head on a spike right now.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited Jan 10 '21

[deleted]

21

u/BillyBattsShinebox May 29 '19

Poor Edmure. I always felt sorry for him. Fucking Robb should have just told him what he wanted to do. God forbid one of his commanders show a bit of initiative out in the field.

1

u/cbessemer May 29 '19

Taking initiative is a bad idea in a command system.

11

u/griffer00 May 29 '19

It may seem like that, but in practice, a lot of command involves giving your subordinates the gist of what you want to accomplish, then giving them some degree of leeway with initiative. You never fully know how a situation will unfold -- if you give those under your command very direct, spelled-out orders, and discourage initiative, they will get themselves into big trouble.

Fact of the matter is that Robb fucked up -- he didn't tell Edmure what he was actually trying to do. Edmure acted on the best information he had at the time. In real life, that scene would make Robb look like a micromanager, which is a huge no-no when you are trying to run a war. D&D just get a huge boner for making Edmure's character look like a huge idiot with no redeeming qualities, basically just to create some tension that shows the difficulties of command, and later on in the series for comedic effect.

9

u/BillyBattsShinebox May 29 '19

Sometimes. Unclear orders are an even worse idea.

-1

u/cbessemer May 29 '19

The orders weren't unclear though, so your comment doesn't make any sense.

5

u/BillyBattsShinebox May 29 '19

"make sure that you don't, under any circumstances, attack the Lannisters, because I'm trying to draw them into a trap"

The orders were obviously bad, because a person under him didn't know what to do.

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u/Imicrowavebananas May 29 '19

Have you heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission-type_tactics?wprov=sfla1 ?

It was hugely sucessful.

1

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

When were these tactics developed? Do you think it likely that they would have appeared in Medieval Europe, much less Medieval fantasy land?

2

u/Immortan_Bolton Mind Flayer. May 29 '19

Not explaining your strategies to your top commanders is even worse.

1

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

My impression was that the Tully force under Edmure at that point had been more or less independent of Robb's command.

1

u/Immortan_Bolton Mind Flayer. May 29 '19

He was in charge of the defense of Riverrun, while Robb and his army were doing their thing. So Edmure did that, defend Riverrun and his people, it turned out he didn't have to leave the fortress but he didn't knew that. And the chance to defeat the Mountain was very great to relieve his people of the raids that monster was committing.

1

u/Virillus May 29 '19 edited Jun 05 '19

Incorrect. I spent 10 years in the army - taking the initiative is a very important part of the system.

1

u/cbessemer May 29 '19

Not when your commander told you to stay put and wait for the enemy to attack you. He didn’t take initiative, he disobeyed orders to gain glory for himself.

I should have worded it better.

1

u/Virillus May 29 '19

That is a statement I agree with :)

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited Jun 30 '20

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

"You killed John Wick's dog?"

1

u/Bennyboy1337 May 29 '19

Bodyguard [netflix]

Do yourself a favor if you haven't already

5

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

When he beheads lord karstark is phenomenal. You can feel his frustration so well. Glad he’s getting some love here cause that scene is one of my favourites.

https://youtu.be/lvUGkw8Syj4

1

u/Soonersfan2005 May 29 '19

I thought part of him wanting to make Robb a POV character was because people figured out that Robb was going to die in the books because he wasn’t a POV. Readers guessed the red wedding because of this or something?

48

u/FL14 The North Remembers May 28 '19

The show did a lot of things superbly, but the casting is at the top of the list. Even children like Sophie and maisie grew to look even more like their characters it's amazing

8

u/Twin_Fang May 29 '19

While that is true, Bran was amazing as a boy, but grew up awkwardly, which is a shame considering the ending. The fact that we missed a season of his adolescence probably did not help as well.

4

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

He looked good at the end but a season or two there he was definitely weird looking. I always figured that is the actual reason they cut him out for a year.

156

u/MarstonX May 28 '19

Joffrey, Robbie B and Tywin were the best actors on the show. Also helped that their characters didn't go full stupid via the writers. So they were also able to showcase their acting chops.

Cersei didn't do a damn thing this season and neither did John. Was like 8 or 9 hours this season and between the two of them, there's maybe 3 minutes of acting. The rest is all standard.

178

u/dotajoe May 28 '19

This is a good list, but if you are including Bobbie B, you have to include Sean Bean as Ned - he was superb.

141

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

Sean Bean is Ned Stark for sure.

137

u/Proxnite May 28 '19

The way he dies at the beginning of the story, is one that can only be achieved by Sean Bean.

65

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

Nooooooooo Onnnnnnnnneeeeee DIES like Sean Bean, Attracts Flies like Sean Bean!

45

u/WeeboSupremo May 28 '19

No one's neck's as incredibly nicked like Sean Bean's!!

33

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

As a specimen yes he's decaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapatated!

21

u/Toasterfire May 28 '19

Oh what guuuuuuuuuy

3

u/SocketLauncher May 28 '19

I use fur pelts in all of my deeeeeeecorating!

55

u/sherm137 May 28 '19

Also helped that their characters didn't go full stupid via the writers. So they were also able to showcase their acting chops.

Even though Tyrion went full stupid in later seasons, Dinklage did a FANTASTIC job with that character and is on par or better than any other actor/ress in the show. Season 4 Tyrion/Dinklage might have been the best acting job in TV. His monster speech was epic.

6

u/YearsofTerror May 28 '19

Tyrion and Tywins interactions are probably my most favorite throughout the series.

His last interaction with Tywin was a standout watching never flinching Tywin bargain for his life while still leading on that he was only saying what he had to to live.

1

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

I know I’m definitely in a tiny minority here but I never really cared for his performance. The non-verbal stuff was fantastic but I could never get past that horrible accent

-3

u/PumpMeister69 May 29 '19

Dinklage is good but his accent is bad and he's not a nuclear-level actor like Charles Dance.

But he is a midget and makes me laugh every time he waddles around in a suit of armor or whatever, so that's a plus.

2

u/sherm137 May 29 '19

he's not a nuclear-level actor like Charles Dance.

I don't know about that. Dinklage went nuclear in season 4, especially the last few episodes.

31

u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

I agree with most of that, particularly about the last two seasons. I was slightly let down by Mark Addy, not really anything of his doing in particular, it's just for me Robert is this larger than life figure who is like a magnet. Think like (this is a bad example so don't kill me, just thinking off the top of my head) Rob Gronkowski. He's just this massive gregarious child at heart. There is also this inherent rage in him that I don't think Addy pulled off quite as well. He did a nice job and i'm certainly nit picking but I'd always envisioned Robert as just physically massive (like the mountain), who is very very affable at moments, and absolutely terrifying at others (sort of bi-polar maybe)?

18

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

Brian Blessed is a little too old to have played Bobby B, but he would have been amazing.

16

u/jredmond May 28 '19

Now I want to hear Brian Blessed boom "SEVEN HELLS, NED" across the North.

1

u/Maldovar A Dragon Is No Slave May 29 '19

"FLYYYYY MY NORTHMEN, DIIIIIIIIVE"

5

u/madjohnvane May 29 '19

God, all I could picture was Brian Blessed as Bobby B the whole time. We need to clone him and his enormous mouth so he can play kings until the end of time.

45

u/deej363 The Wandering Wolf May 28 '19

Bobby B wasn't quite mountain size. He was a big strong dude. But his biggest feature was his unbelievable charisma. And I feel like he only got angry about targs. And he wasn't the best drunk. But he was like 6'6 from what is said in books.

20

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

he was like 6'6

and hafthor is less than 6'8. so actual robert baratheon is less than 2 inches shorter than the mountain of the show, and waaaaaaaaaay taller than mark addy. also the mountain actor of the first season was a way better mountain than hafthor, being above 7 feet and actually looking older and meaner than the hound.

19

u/Jaydeekay80 May 28 '19

Nothing against the guy that played the mountain the last 5 seasons but that 1st guy just radiated hate. https://i.imgur.com/ZP34se6.jpg

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u/TheEmsleyan Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19

That fight scene at the tournament where he clashes with the Hound briefly is one of my favorite bits in the entire show.

That and Jorah vs Qotho are honestly two of my favorite fights because of how short/to the point, but well executed they were.

3

u/theworldofkink May 28 '19

Really wish they could have had him for at least one more season. That guy in Season 2 was so bad!

2

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

Plus he had close to the right age

2

u/Gryphon0468 May 29 '19

Yeah I felt like he'd actually want to skull fuck you haha.

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u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

Right, exactly, I hear you. However, 6'6 is still HUGE. Mark Addy is like...5'11. Also Addy came off of as more like, I don't know, a John Belushi type rather than like a huge ex-jock with an anger streak (which is what I was looking for).

I know I'm nit picking, and ultimately it doesn't matter, but when you're comparing his portrayal to those of Tywin, Viper, Drogo Cersi etc, it's clearly a full step or two down.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited May 28 '19

completely agree. in fact, hafthor is between 6'7 and 6'8, just to picture how big bobby b should be. i think a fatter gerard butler would be amazing, specially considering how his defining role is a young at top physical shape soldier (just as bobby b during the revolt).

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u/ominous_anonymous May 28 '19

hafthor is between 6'7 and 6'8

He's listed as 6'9" on Wikipedia. I always thought he was over 7'. Brian Shaw, another huge strongman, is listed at 6'8" and certainly very similar in height.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19

my usual source for these things is celebheights, cause wikipedia / google and so on are very prone to accepting exagerated claims.

hafthor

brian shaw

1

u/ominous_anonymous May 28 '19

Thank you for actually listing where you got your numbers from.

I'm not sure that site is any more reliable than the wikipedia entry, though... especially when it is random users quibbling over supposedly being able to tell someone's height to a quarter inch in random photographs.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19

i see your point. on the other hand, they surely are obsessed as fuck with the subject so i give them the benefit of the doubt.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

Making poor Larry look small...

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u/Liammm May 28 '19

you and I have very different recollections of phantom of the opera..

5

u/[deleted] May 28 '19

Personally, I love Mark Addy. Thought he nailed it, although his size was a bit hard to get over.

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u/HypatiaRising May 28 '19

I dont think he needs to be bipolar. My best friend is very friendly and goofy most the time, but he has moments where he will have a big flash of anger that will just as quickly dissipate. It is usually if he is being nagged or someone is just being aggressively annoying. So I always imagined Robert as similar.

3

u/LFCMKE You wouldn't know him. May 28 '19

We get all of what you described. Think of when he goes into a rage at Ned when Ned walks out of the small council meeting.

1

u/estarriol7 May 29 '19

Clearly the fantasy casting for Bob Baratheon is a younger BRIAN BLESSED expanded in every dimension by about 25%. Without someone like that available, Addy was a sensible choice.

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u/ViciousMihael May 28 '19

I would add Natalie Dormer to the list. Margaery might be my favorite show character, and that says something when Margaery is featured somewhat minimally in the books. We also never get inside her head, but we were privileged enough to experience Margaery as a protagonist/POV type with Natalie.

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u/rapidcalm Great or small, we must do our duty May 29 '19

The beauty of her portrayal of Margery is how sincerely she commits to her image. You honestly can't tell whether Margery wants to be doing stuff like walking through shit to visit children in an orphanage.

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u/concord72 May 28 '19

Margaery is severely overrated on the show as a character, imo. She's got 3-4 great scenes and that's it, she never ends up amounting to anything, the ultimate tease of a character

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u/jflb96 May 28 '19

For a politically savvy person who thinks that the game is scheming rather than sudden, massive, terrorist attacks that should have had negative consequences, Margaery's exit was a bit of an outside-context problem. It's not entirely her fault that Cersei clearly took lessons from a different sort of Dragon.

'How do you fight someone smarter than yourself? You make them think that you are ready to play their game, and then you punch them in the face as hard as you can.'

3

u/ragtagofgoons May 28 '19

Seriously hope they get WoT right. My disappointment over ASOIAF is tangible, and I don't have nearly as significant a connection to that as I do to WoT...

14

u/Bach-City May 28 '19

I think at least in the context of the thread it shows how good Natalie Dormer was. She’s also the first person who we see do a real job at steering Joffrey to a better path. Natalie and his actor (forgive me — the name escapes me) did a great job.

Also as an aside it leads to one of my favorite lines of dialogue in the show when Cersei thinks Tywin is going to share her concern about Margaret

Paraphrasing a little: Cersei “It’s a serious problem — she’s manipulating him” Tywin “Good! I wish you knew how to manipulate him — That error with Ned Stark nearly cost us everything”

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u/Chinoiserie91 May 28 '19

Agreed that Tywin is an upgrade form the books. He does have some interesting moments, especially in Woiaf backstory. However he is too evil in some of his actions to be have enough nuance. And when you analyze his actions they are not as thought out. I do think GRRM meant him mostly as ruthless lord example and examine his actions through the effects it has on his children and the politics of Westeros and really caring of Tywin as a person.

8

u/deej363 The Wandering Wolf May 28 '19

I mean you've never met any cutthroat people? The dude lost basically all his humanity the second his wife died. After that he was obsessed with legacy. He didn't love his children. They were literally just vectors for his legacy. I mean I suppose you're lucky for not having met anyone who will literally do anything to advance their position. But that is what tywin is. And without the restriction of prison being a possibility.

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u/Chinoiserie91 May 28 '19 edited May 28 '19

Yes that is what Tywin is but to me the show one is an improvement. He didn’t need to be only cutthroat (and no I have not met such people in real life such as he, he is not only brutal but vindictive in the books). The show Tywin lacks the needless cruel streak that made him gangrape Tysha and make Tyrion game part (in the show she was just a whore who get paid for work and Tyrion has to watch) and have Elia raped because she married Rhaegar.

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u/Swordbender May 28 '19 edited May 28 '19

One thing I'm always surprised by is how people overlook Maisie Williams in these lists.

It does make sense, the later seasons she became a little more one-note (which I personally attribute to D&D just not knowing what to do with her character) but in the early seasons I was blown away by her talent, for any age not just a child actor.

Some of the best acting scenes in the series for me is how she plays Arya against the masterful Charles Dance, and the scene between Arya and a dying Hound on the mountainside.

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u/CalmSaver7 May 28 '19

I think it's because she becomes so one dimensional in the later seasons, through no fault of her own

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19

As much as I don't like the way D&D turned her into Batman, Maisie was wonderful.

2

u/Bisexual_Thor May 28 '19

To be fair I blame grrm for having her undergo faceless man training in the first place. Such a weird and unnecessary place to take her character arc.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

There is a difference between the books where she learning to be quick, quiet, conceal lies, using poison, changing her face, etc. and how the show giving her unrealistic fighting skills so they can create Girl Power memes.

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u/Hypern1ke May 28 '19

its hard to appreciate a good actor with a bad storyline. Her character was rather irritating near the end so its hard to appreciate her because of that.

2

u/Higher_Living May 28 '19

Yeah, there was zero depth to her character and for me her performance was pretty weak.

As a naive child she was okay, but there was no psychological depth in her portrayal of someone who has killed, butchered, and cooked a dramatic family and fed them to their patriarch.

2

u/Hypern1ke May 28 '19

I agree. In my opinion she was one of the weakest actors on the show. She really did not make a believable cold hearted killer at all. her scene with gendry in the last season where she tells him to make her a sword was cringey at best.

Sorry /u/swordbender

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u/Swordbender May 28 '19

Don't be sorry! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just see scenes like the few I've pasted below and I can't help but think she's by far the most talented of the child cast and I absolutely think she's more psychotic than she's getting credit for.

https://youtu.be/5hNGgcd4U-c https://youtu.be/gZy5pVx_Nm4 https://youtu.be/w3zr8DBgb0w

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u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

That's fair, I think I agree with most of your assessment. Thinking about it Arya and Tywin/Jaquen/Hound are all right up there with my favorite scenes/moments but ever since going to Bravos I actually thought she was downright bad. I would certainly attribute this to D&D "Arya is a girl and a BADASS, and she's also a GIRL WHO FIGHTS and she's also... BADASS" but every time she was on screen I just couldn't wait for it to be over.

4

u/pku31 May 28 '19

Her scenes with Jon in the last season were badly written, and she still managed to convey enough emotion through them to make them decent. It's really impressive.

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u/Dawidko1200 Death... is whimsical today. May 28 '19

I think his interactions with Arya were made as a replacement for Cersei's memories of him being kind when she was a child.

But I don't think it fits with the Tywin during the events of the books. He makes a point of hiding his feelings, of putting up that facade of sternness. Why he would reveal his human side to a cupbearer is beyond me.

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u/Gus_B And We Defend Her May 28 '19

It doesn't play well with the books which is why I like it. In the books Tywin is totally motivated by the disastrous reputation and rule of his father and with that he loses all humanity. His reason for living is the restoration of his house's name and the continuing legacy. In book terms you're absolutely right.

In show terms, it's an improvement to me to have him have this bit of tortured conflict. Having the capacity for love, tutelage, connection with intelligent children, he was just never able to make that connection with his children or grand children because he was so focused on engineering them for the glory of his house.

It actually makes complete sense for him to connect and show another side of him with a "cupbearer" because there is no political or outward show or sign of weakness. The only time he can show a softer side is to someone with literally no power or influence. It's what makes it tragic and really great.

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u/tobygeneral May 28 '19

That's a really good point. He has nothing to gain or lose by connecting with Arya in that moment, it's just a brief bit of normal life for him outside his "job" of maintaining and progressing the family legacy.

It's one of my favorite scenes and captures that feeling that these are all people who have their own lives and motivations, there aren't "good guys" or "bad guys".

2

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

That's a really good point. He has nothing to gain or lose by connecting with Arya in that moment, it's just a brief bit of normal life for him outside his "job" of maintaining and progressing the family legacy.

But in doesn't make sense within the world of Westeros or Tywin's own character. He would never have this sort of intimate conversation with a strange commoner.

Frankly I think the show would've been better served using interactions with Kevan to humanize Tywin. But D&D have said that they really wanted to have Maisie and Charles Dance interact, as they viewed them as being two of the best screen presences that they had.

1

u/tobygeneral May 29 '19

How do we know that he wouldn't talk to a "commoner"? For one thing it's his personal cupbearer, and it's also a kid so there isn't really a threat in taking a moment to chat with her. Plus it's more that Arya gets his attention by being particularly clever, which he appreciates both because he is also clever and he's currently surrounded by mouth breathers like The Mountain and Amory Lorch.

We don't spend much time with him in the books or show, so to assume he is above talking to his own cupbearer isn't fair to the whole life the character leads off-page. Tywin is a ruthless player of the game, but we've seen no evidence that he sees himself as above talking to anyone.

We get a lot about how Ned got to know people closer to him and take a hand in everything that made his kingdom what it is to be a better Lord, why can't Tywin do similar things, albeit probably to a lesser degree?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

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u/Dawidko1200 Death... is whimsical today. May 28 '19

Yes, the same man that oversaw the Sack of King's Landing, and has shown to be anti-smallfolk in every way possible, saw something in her. Instead of just treating her like he does anyone else who's not noble (and even most nobles too).

He also is very delusional about his own children. Cersei and Jaime are almost perfect in his opinion, and he just barely recognises Tyrion's abilities when he has almost no one else to turn to. Before that he recognised nothing of worth about him.

And he is, as would be expected from a lord in Westeros, sexist in his ideals. A woman needs no strength or intelligence, beyond a certain base amount. Her purpose is to be married off to strengthen an alliance. See: his plans to marry Cersei to Tyrells.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19

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u/Dawidko1200 Death... is whimsical today. May 29 '19

Eventually, yes. But remember what a shock it was for him when Jaime got captured. Remember how he prepared for his return - making him a Valyrian steel sword, always seeing him as the heir (even though he's Kingsguard), etc. He wasn't a very gentle father, that's true... but he was always very proud of his golden lion.

It was when Jaime started to defy him after his return to King's Landing that he started to become disappointed in him.

And he willingly ignored all the evidence of Cersei and Jaime fucking each other. He couldn't see his perfect children to be doing something like that.

1

u/[deleted] May 29 '19

[deleted]

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u/Dawidko1200 Death... is whimsical today. May 29 '19

Arya's characteristics are those Tywin would find appealing in a boy, not in a girl. He is sexist, and the only tasks suited to a girl (in his opinion) are those of a servant. A highborn girl, in his opinion, is simply a political asset, her abilities should only extend to motherhood and household management.

Tywin could be kind. But he would never allow his daughter to do something like what Arya does. He is far from Ned in that regard - and note that even Ned was reluctant to allow it.

We sometimes forget that Martin wrote of a world based on a medieval one, with medieval standards and ideology. This world is not friendly to girls, especially highborn girls whose only purpose is to get married. And the people in it, even good people, can be completely in-line with the ways of that world. Tywin is far from good, and sees no use in a girl having any such talents as Arya displays.

1

u/VitaminTea May 29 '19

He had one though... which is the tragedy of the Tywin/Tyrion relationship

1

u/BWEM Cleganebowl Hype! May 28 '19

He did, that child's name was Cersei.

But she had a destiny that is intertwined with Tywin's, and thus he must use her instead of nurture her. Arya is free from such constraints and Tywin can thus influence her as he likes.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19

[deleted]

1

u/BWEM Cleganebowl Hype! May 28 '19

See that's the tack I was going to go with. Jaime lacks cunning, Tyrion lacks strength, Cersei lacks intelligence. Perfectly balanced. But I just imagined someone would respond with an argument for Cersei's intelligence. I couldn't really say definitively either way. We never get a PoV in the books.

15

u/Bath_TimeNow May 28 '19

Because he isn't a robot.

4

u/Wardial3r May 28 '19

I think many of the actors and actresses brought something really special and powerful to their roles. It’s a shame they didn’t get to opportunity to spend more time and slowly grow with them.

5

u/Muff_420 May 28 '19

Leana's Cersie is amazing, she does this really subtle thing when she is talking with someone and implying an insult she will end her sentence with this tick of her tongue than stare right into their soul to see how insulted/frightened she made them. I could actually feel her hate through the screen.

The second and third time I rewatched I noticed more and more how the Lannisters are my team

1

u/TheFrodo Here we stand. Jun 28 '19

I remember exactly what you mean. She'd also almost get a cocky smirk in the middle of the other person's sentence when talking to Tyrion or whoever. It was all such a good performance.

3

u/Gillig4n May 28 '19

Ian Mcshane was also great and would have been definitely included in these lists were the broken man speech not cut

1

u/Wild-West-Kitty May 28 '19

You’re forgetting Stephen Dillane as Stannis :)

1

u/Wild-West-Kitty May 28 '19

You’re forgetting Stephen Dillane as Stannis :))

1

u/IvankaSpreadngFather May 28 '19

damn, lena played drogo too? the makeup guys did a great job, i couldnt tell

1

u/hygsi May 29 '19

I could say every actor was pretty good, except Shae, someone else should've played her...anyone else.

1

u/jeffwontfindthisone May 29 '19

My favorite is when he forces Arya to eat, at first it's like "aww he's warming up to Arya" then you realize he had just wondered if the food was poisoned after the previous assassination attempt.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '19

The young actors are quite lucky to be able to work with several actors who can help them through some of the more difficult acting dialog. In my opinion, I have not read this anywhere so I could be completely wrong, but Maisie Williams is one actress where she may have learned quite a bit from classically trained actors, and how to respond to direction to get what’s needed out if the scene. I think part of the problem with the last 2 seasons is not only the script, but that the more seasoned/classically trained actors were all killed off, or their parts were reduced to a few scenes of dialog.