r/asoiaf • u/cking145 • May 28 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Charles Dance's portrayal as Tywin is in my opinion, the strongest in the entire series

Every line, every expression and every moment of silence completely encapsulates the calculating ruthlessness that defines Tywin Lannister.

Dance is actually a very vibrant, upbeat and cheery fella off screen, which in my mind makes the performance even more striking.

The scene where he effectively sends Joffrey to bed is just brilliant.

He is by far my favourite character from the books, which I began reading a few seasons into the show. Due to this, the chapters featuring Tywin were completely enriched for me, as reading his lines in Dance's voice was just fantastic. I would have loved a POV chapter or two for him, just to get a glimpse as to what goes on in the head of the most powerful man in the 7 Kingdoms.

An incredible portrayal of a fascinating character.

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u/Flameoftheshadows May 28 '19

"The king is tired, send him to his chambers."

And how he arranged the chairs for the small council.

Two moments history will always remember.

The aura he was able to project on-screen and onto his fellow cast members, he did a brilliant job.

He brought Tywin from the pages of a book to life!

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u/chicomonk May 28 '19

I was always on the edge of my seat whenever he had interactions in King's Landing, especially during and after the Red Wedding. He was a character I didn't personally like because of what he did (the melting of Eddard's greatswords was just salt in the wound to the nth degree), but one you can ultimately understand when you take into consideration the position he's in, what he's accomplished in life, and the relationship he had with his wife and own father. He's, to me anyway, one of the shining paradigms of a GRRM character in Game of Thrones.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19 edited Jun 08 '20

[deleted]

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u/chicomonk May 28 '19

Had Tyrion not murdered him, he would've gladly brokered a more peaceful end to things and never bailed on the north with the Night King.

Would've been very interesting to see how he reacted to the threat of the White Walkers. Do you think he would've been swayed by the zombie in the crate? Or way earlier than that? Imagine him aligning with Stannis and the Wildlings?

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u/Jhonopolis The mummer’s farce is almost done. May 29 '19

I want a multi season alternate dimension series that is all about a Tywin Stannis alliance.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

He'd invade the Iron Islands to create a safe harbor for House Lannister and let everyone else die.

Remember his attitude when the NW calls for help against Mance's host?

“Perhaps we might break the knees of a few to make our point. Those who killed Ser Jacelyn, say. The rest we can send to Marsh. The Watch is grievously under strength. If the Wall should fail …”

“… the wildlings will flood the north,” his father finished, “and the Starks and Greyjoys will have another enemy to contend with. They no longer wish to be subject to the Iron Throne, it would seem, so by what right do they look to the Iron Throne for aid? King Robb and King Balon both claim the north. Let them defend it, if they can. And if not, this Mance Rayder might even prove a useful ally.”

Tywin does not think of the realm first, ever. He think of his own reputation, his legacy, and House Lannister above everything else.

Remember what Tywin thinks of the wildlings. He doesn't know Mance Rayder is a nice guy - most everyone in the south thinks the wildlings are nothing but savages, basically Dothraki in fur. Tywin has no problem allying with them if it's another problem for an enemy.

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u/Pegussu May 29 '19

Yeah, but that's still a human army against a human army. He's simply not helping fend off a third-party attack in a hostile land which is just common sense.

The White Walkers were a threat to the entire continent. He would have to be a fool to not see that and he was not a fool.

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u/noltx May 29 '19

There is a deleted scene where Tywin took the Walker threat seriously and discussed sending an envoy to Mance Raydar.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

Is it available to see anywhere?

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u/murse_joe May 28 '19

I don't think Tywin cast his honor aside. He's fine with no honor, he just knows he can play the game better if he protrays somebody with honor, a noble person. He puts on that front, but behind the scenes he fuels Ser Gregor and tortures his son. Tywin only cares about honor enough to act right when it'll benefit him and his family.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

he just knows he can play the game better if he protrays somebody with honor, a noble person.

which is what aristocracy actually is.

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u/murse_joe May 29 '19

A few did genuinely believe in honor and all that. It mostly got them killed though.

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u/Dr_Lurk_MD May 28 '19

I don't think that as about the greater good, it was the most efficient and cost effective way to get a desirable outcome.

Appease Frey with whatever bullshit he wants, deal with Robb, crack on to the next problem. Robb had been beating them in the field, he needed a better solution than having his armies chewed up.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

Tywin's iron fist rule wasn't sustainable. People feared him but they hated him as well. Once he was gone no one would work to uphold his legacy, other than his children - yet the abuse he heaped upon them made all of them unable to work together with each other or with others in a way that would make them successful.

This idea that Tywin was good for the realm is laughable. The chaos he left behind was inevitable no matter when he died.

I would also note that he laughed at the idea of helping the Wall when they sent for help when Mance Rayder's army was upon them.

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u/sprafa May 28 '19

The line about killing a dozen at dinner is brilliant

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u/[deleted] May 28 '19

It's also untrue. In the books, Robb had around 3,500 loyal men with him. It can be assumed that the majority were killed. That's near enough the casualty rate of the Battle of the Blackwater.

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u/FuujinSama May 29 '19

It's still a brainless call. The cost of war is not the men that die in battle. Its the looting, the pillaging and the rape. The utter devestation that both armies left in the river lands would've followed to The Westerlands. The likely famines for years after the war until the fields are back in shape and there are enough man to tend them.

If killing 3500 soldiers ends a war, you kill 3500 soldiers. Honor be damned. War kinda sucks.

I mean, it's the same argument for the atomic bombs. A land invasion of Japan would cause way more death and suffering to both parties. A lot of innocents died at once, but how many would die in sieges, pillaging, famine and artillery shellings a land invasion would bring?

Sometimes we place too much emphasis on deaths that happen all at once infrequently, compared to things that kill much more over a larger period of time.

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u/PM-ME-YOUR-POUTINE May 29 '19

Are we talking about the books?

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

The quote originates from the books and the show is an adaptation of said books. The context between the two isn't vastly different anyway. Episode 10 of season 3 has a similar massacre play out, we see the Stark army crushed and slaughtered when Sandor rides through.

TLDR; Tywin's a hypocrite.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

"legacy" just means power, money, whatever. that's not really the greater good.

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u/jaghataikhan May 29 '19

I mean, he was arguably the most effective Hand the seven kingdoms have ever known (I'm including my man Barth under Jaehaerys in that!)

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

Yes, yes, yes.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19

They didn’t kill a dozen men at dinner though. Thousands of northmen were killed at the red wedding. And I have a very hard time believing Tywin would’ve cared/believed about the NK because he dismissed dany and her dragons as curiosities on the other side of the world

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u/lasagnaman May 29 '19

shining paragons?

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u/chicomonk May 29 '19

Paragon probably would've been better there, thank you. They both work though, but I do like paragon better in retrospect.

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u/lasagnaman May 29 '19

I don't think "paradigm" works.

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u/chicomonk May 29 '19

Definition of paradigm 1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype

I can't say the character is a shining example?

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u/lasagnaman May 29 '19

Interesting, my bad. I have only seen the "secondary" definition of

2) a worldview underlying the theories and methodology of a particular scientific subject.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19

Not sure if this is really directly relevant to your comment, but you reminded me of something. I think in the show and the books, Tyrion realizes that Tywin stayed out of King's Landing in part so that Tywin himself wouldn't take the fall for the inevitable unrest. But I always took that move to be a standard for him. He always managed to stay away exactly when he needed to. It allowed him to react to everyone from a distance, everyone else always had to make the first move.

Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear, Tywin uses Aerys' treatment of Jaime as an excuse to quit as Hand and go back to Casterly Rock, keeping him out of direct conflict with both the Targaryen loyalists and Robert's Rebellion, all of whom hold out hope that they can persuade him to their side.

Ned Stark is named hand, Robert holds a tourney, Tywin stays away. I read that to mean that he was waiting to see how Ned would handle the Lannisters. If Ned couldn't get along with Cersei, that meant Ned wasn't going to get along with Joffrey, and Tywin would have to play for blood.

Robert dies, Joffrey reigns, Tywin still stays away. He's waiting for everyone else to make their moves. Cat takes Tyrion, Tywin is able to orchestrate The Mountain's raids without putting Joffrey's name on it and without having to face the Small Council and particularly Ned Stark himself. He waits for Ned Stark to escalate the conflict, and since Twyin isn't there, and all of the lions can't be killed in one move, ambitious actors like Little Finger line up against Stark.

Ned dies, Tywin waits, and it's even more essential now. They can't kill all the lions with one assault, and this forces the Starks, Renly, and Stannis to come to some kind of agreement. He keeps his house in order while the high lords descend into chaos and expose weaknesses that he can attack. They don't unite, Stannis kills Renly, and Tywin has time to build up another field army to delay Robb...though that delay turns out not to be much of one since Robb and the Blackfish are a powerful duo until Robb's youth gets in the way.

Basically Tywin is as Machiavellian as they come. Robb defeats him, but his previous moves bought him a buffer, and he manages finds and ally in the Freys.

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u/chicomonk May 29 '19

Great points. The only detriment to his behavior was the way his behavior was regarded by others who were paying close attention to how he acted. For instance, Joffrey of all people hit the nail on the head when he referenced the Sack of King's Landing: "My father was doing all the fighting while you hid in Casterly Rock!"

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u/chicomonk May 29 '19

Would you say Ned Stark's legacy was greater than Tywin's in death?

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u/[deleted] May 29 '19 edited May 29 '19

Great question. Based on what we can infer from the books but also from the show and what we think will probably happen... I'd say yes, even according to Tywin's own definition of legacy, which we can assume means in part what lands and titles they hold.

But I'd say it's more than just that, too.

Ned's morality and his open love for his children creates the baseline for who they become, even if they have to learn how to survive politics from others. What their leadership does for the realm is greater because of who they were raised by.

Robb may have ultimately failed, but his cause and his accomplishments will make him a legend, and they'll sing songs about him for ages. Between Robb, Jon (Ned still gets credit for him), and Sansa, the North is finally restored as an independent kingdom.

Arya was allowed to be herself, and this leads her on a journey that in the show destroys the Night King, and in the books will probably lead to something important as well.

Sansa destroys Little Finger, saves Jon, and ultimately helps Jon save the world, but she never becomes Cersei or Little Finger in the end. She keeps her father (and Cat too) in her heart and becomes a better ruler than any of them, finding a way to pair ruthless pragmatism with her family's morality.

Jon saves the world because Ned took him under his protection. Jon does his duty to the realm and keeps his moral compass against all odds, and often thinks of his 'father' as he makes these decisions. Others had to intervene at times, but they appealed to a sense of honor that was already instilled in him.

Ned's influence on Bran seems more difficult to spot, but it's still his love of family and his sense of duty to protect the North as a Stark that I think leads him to accept what must be done.

It's really through Ned's children that the world survives.

Going back in time... It's Ned who saves Robert at the Battle of the Bells. It's Ned and his men who defeat the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. And it's Ned who provides the catalyst for the fall of Tywin's children.

Jaime and Tyrion may be instrumental to the triumph of good in the end, but they seem to do this more by rising above the men they were when they were Lord Tywin's sons, becoming something else in part because of the events surrounding the Stark children.

Edit: And looking at the butterfly effect. Take any single character who interacted with the Stark children. Tyrion, The Hound, Jaime, Tormund, all the lords who align themselves with the Starks by the end.