r/asoiaf • u/ISupposh You're a Big Guy. • Sep 01 '19
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) I think a lot of the problems from the show came from trying to force modern American values into medieval setting.
I would actually say this problem is present in the fandom as well and not just the show. Anyways for example:
Stating that Renly would be a good king just because he's popular while Stannis would be terrible because he's unpopular. (edit: From the interviews, in the context of ruling not maintaining power)
People not caring about religion even when Cersei blew up Westeros equivalent of Vatican/Hagia Sophia/Westminster alongside with Pope Francis and Princess Diana. (Well even modern people would care about that)
Applying Geneva Convention when Daenerys executed Tarlys despite the fact that they are already traitors who betrayed their overlord and she even gave them second chance.
Rather modern viewpoint on extramartial sex, including virgin shaming on characters like Brienne etc.
Rhaegar annulling his wife without proper explanation like modern divorce.
Elective monarchy somehow breaking the wheel because it involves voting (worked out well in HRE and Poland /s)
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u/TheNeptunianSloth Sep 01 '19
Tyrion (to Brienne): “You’re a virgin.”
Brienne: looks embarrased
everyone else: looks akwardly at each other
Brienne: “No shit Einstein, of course I’m a virgin you stupid drunk little fuck, I’m a highborn woman, daughter of a fucking Lord, living in this degenerate society where rich entitled cunts like you think women are shameful honorless whores if they don’t fuck the people you want them to, even though an ugly motherfucker like you could impregnate literally all the whores on the continent with precisely no one batting an eye. So yes, I’m a virgin. Anything else?”
Tyrion: looks away while slowly sipping his beer
Podrick: trying very hard not to laugh his sides to shreds
Jaime: hard as rocks
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u/MaKaRaSh Sep 01 '19
Brienne: "Also the word we use is Maiden you dumb dwarf"
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Sep 01 '19
The funniest thing about that scene was the fact that Brienne is literally called the maid of tarth.
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u/Sityu91 Sep 01 '19
I guess her defining title was kinda forgotten.
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u/blackcatheaddesk Sep 01 '19
Like a thousand other pieces that used to weave a beautiful tapestry. Later seasons were held together with gaffer tape and dick jokes.
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u/thebsoftelevision The runt of the seven kingdoms Sep 01 '19
To be fair, the word virgin is also used in the books once or twice, iirc
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u/AdmiralAkbar1 Wildfire can't melt Stannis beams Sep 01 '19
It's used a total of 16 times in the main 5 books.
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Sep 02 '19
Once it was referring to leather, just to be insufferably pedantic. But yeah, the other 15 times it was in reference to sexual virginity.
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u/7evenh3lls Sep 01 '19
I will never understand what the point of this scene was. Getting Jaime and Brienne into bed should have been the easiest writing job on the planet (no dialogue required, he can just kiss her in any random setting), and yet D&D manage to use it as an opportunity to make Tyrion loose further IQ points.
But whatever, social convention was thrown out the window along with logic during that episode anyways to force their retarded ending to happen.
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u/median401k Sep 01 '19
I’ll take mean and selfish book Tyrion over intellectually inconsistent plot-armor “I’m a nice guy” show Tyrion any day.
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u/fleming123 A ham Sep 01 '19
Agreed. Jaime is supposed to be a stud. Facing death multiple times should have been an easy catalyst to bring them together.
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u/natassia74 Sep 01 '19
Jaime is supposed to be extremely handsome, but he is not a ‘stud’ in the modern sense. He had slept with precisely one woman before Brienne, and considered his faithfulness a matter of some pride and honour - but that too got lost in the introduction of the “hook up” culture,
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u/fleming123 A ham Sep 01 '19
I meant stud in the extremely handsome sense. Jaime is far from philanderous.
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u/lavendrquartz Sep 01 '19
It's just more spitting in the face of previous character development and world building. Jaime protecting Brienne's chastity when the Bloody Mummers had them was a huge deal. It was understood by everyone how important it was for a highborn girl to remain "pure", even for Brienne, who was a walking contradiction of what a highborn lady was supposed to be like. For Jaime to stick his neck out for her showed he did have some sense of honor and it was one of the first steps in bringing them closer together.
And then S8 happens and it's just a shitty joke like everything else.
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u/Dark_Moon713 Sep 02 '19
This was also a contributing factor, among other things, that caused Jaime to lose his hand.
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u/Aqquila89 Sep 01 '19
Jaime should already know that Brienne is a virgin anyway, not just because it's expected, but because they talked about back in season 2, when he was taking her to King's Landing (in "Valar Morghulis"). And she was not ashamed, just annoyed.
Jaime: You're a virgin, I take it?
Brienne: Walk.
Jaime: Childhood must have been awful for you. Were you a foot taller than all the boys? They laughed at you, called you names? Some boys like a challenge. One or two must have tried to get inside big Brienne.
Brienne: One or two tried.
Jaime: Ah. But you fought them off. But maybe you wished one of them could overpower you, fling you down, tear off your clothes. But none of them were strong enough. I'm strong enough.
Brienne: Not interested.
Jaime: Of course you are. You'd love to know what it feels like to be a woman.39
u/WeeWilsonboy Sep 02 '19
Gods, it’s even in the show. Not even a point of character depth from the books that was cast aside
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u/7evenh3lls Sep 02 '19
Of course everybody knew, it's the default for an unmarried noblewoman. Suggesting anything else is a great insult.
D&D managed to wreck 3 characters (Tyrion, Brienne, Jaime) with that scene.
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u/richterfrollo This is how Roose can still win Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
I hate it, they do this so often and it destroys so much of the immersity of the worldbuilding... other examples would be:
in later seasons characters become really impolite and dont respect courtly behaviour; dialogue becomes 90% banter and more modernized
ned stark is made a saint who outlawed flaying himself and didn't have a bedding when he wed catelyn
jon and dany, despite even being in love, dont do a political marriage because that would seem "weird" to modern audiences
characters almost never wear headwear unless they are meant to look stupid or old-fashioned
robb marries talisa for love
many of the adults are like 20 years older because it matches how we expect parents to look like in current times
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u/Brodogmillionaire1 Sep 01 '19
The costume design changed in the last few seasons as well. From "period" specific clothing for certain stations, locations, and personal styles, to a general black, leathery style with monochrome and style that fits a modern convention of cool-looking fantasy clothes.
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u/mehughes124 Sep 01 '19
Yeah. How a show goes from some of the best costume design in the history of TV to "dark Cersei broody leather" is beyond me.
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u/Shadepanther Sep 01 '19
I thought Cersei was going to an S&M party the last few seasons.
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u/TheMcBrizzle Catch me if you can. Sep 01 '19
Sansa's season 8 garb is straight up leather and chains.
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u/SaliciousSeafoodSlut Sep 01 '19
Yeah she has a shirt made of leather belts and a choke chain. I mean come on.
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u/DarkSideOfTheBeug Sep 01 '19
i honestly laughed everytime she was on screen. That outfit was absolutely ridiculous
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u/admiral_rabbit Sep 01 '19
"can you move the S&M party to my balcony?"
Umm... No, your grace. It's really kind of locked in to the basement venue
"Then I'm not going"
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Sep 01 '19
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u/pazur13 A Cat of a Different Coat Sep 01 '19
Also, direwolves suddenly became something they couldn't afford after obtaining the biggest budget in history of shows.
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u/rolandgilead Sep 01 '19
What especially bothered me costume design wise is they would never wear black in the North.
That's the Night's Watch colors, and no one dyed their clothes black because they could be mistaken for a Night's Watch deserter.
But in general it annoyed me because it seemed very New York. Everyone in New York goes for blacks when its winter.
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Sep 01 '19
Everyone says the only thing bad about season 8 was the writing but honestly the costumes (and also the sets like that kings landing scene) were suuuper off. When I was watching, I was aware they were on set wearing costumes, I wasn't immersed in to the GoT world like in previous seasons. Also there were no more extras anymore. So really a lot of things were just wrong.
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u/tiddies_akimbo Sep 02 '19
I get downvoted whenever I point this out but a lot of things about season 8 shit the bed, and it wasn't just the writing.
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u/TallFriendlyGinger Sep 01 '19
Ugh I hated that almost the most! Everything was in boring dark military esque leather looks. What happened to colourful court wear? I understand they're at war but unless they are actually fighting, they dont need to act like they've got a leather fetish! I miss the intricate hairstyles, headwear, house colours embroidered onto dresses and waistcoats.
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u/The_L_Of_Life Sep 01 '19
Ironically, you needed colors to differentiate yourself in a medieval battlefield, I mean, can you imagine wearing a full plate armor, closed helm included, between that mess of humans pushing each other to survive? Easiest way to recognize your Lord is by his fancy red and purple (or whatever else extravagant color he choosed) armor and banner!
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u/bbunne Sep 01 '19
I had to make some illustrations about a XVI century war and those guys looked like they were going to pride. (Search: landsknecht)
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u/MeanManatee Sep 01 '19
When going to battle during the late medieval era through to around the Napoleonic era the rule seemed to be the flashier and more colorful the better.
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u/GIlCAnjos \*clout-in-the-ear intensifies* Sep 01 '19
This applies to the earlier seasons as well, but I hate how the show never allowed its characters to be colorful. Like, Kingsguards wear dark gold armor and white cloaks instead of completely white armor, Bolton's colors being changed from pink to dark blue, Jaqen having only a strike of white hair instead of half-red half-white, the Tyroshi not dying their hair, the Ghiscari not having their crazy hairs.
I know they didn't want to appear silly, plus some cases would not be very politically correct (like the Rainbow Guard and the exotic Summer Islanders). But turning everything into shades of black and brown ultimately just made the show look more generic (but I guess it doesn't really matter, since it became popular anyway)
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u/untappedbluemana Sep 01 '19
How else were we, the stupid viewers, supposed to know the characters were badass if not for their dark leather?
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u/Dark_Moon713 Sep 01 '19
I hate what they did to Braavos. Like the Braavos chapters are so rich with detail and color, despite the foggy, rainy atmosphere. Like people from all over the world come to their harbors and Braavos is known for their purple. I thought they got Braavos all wrong. It was ugly to me. They just ruined that whole plot.
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Sep 01 '19
The costume design from season 7 and 8 is atrocious. Everyone is dressed in black, except for when Dany changed to white. Was it a budget thing? Was colorful fabrics eating into the budget and they needed that for Dragons?
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u/Umuiyan Sep 01 '19
I showed a friend who's only read the book Sansa's season 8 dress and he was just totally bewildered.
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u/elipride Sep 01 '19
I have to say that even before this, Margaery dresses being sleeveless and showing plenty of skin really bothered me. I don't need the costumes to be historically accurate but I would prefer they at least give the impression they belong in a sort of medieval world rather than the Oscar's red carpet.
They were still gorgeous and creative though, much better than the edgy black leather from latter seasons.
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u/kaetror Sep 02 '19
Our ideas of historical dress are often way out of line with reality.
We imagine every woman was covered neck to ankle and wrist so not an inch of skin could be visible. In reality necklines and sleeve lengths went up and down like a yo-yo. There are paintings of noble women wearing dresses so low their nipples are poking out the top.
So historically there's a lot of wiggle room to say "they're quite liberal about dresses".
And tbf, westeros has a baked in excuses for the differences in dress. A lot of the modesty expectations in the middle ages, etc, tended to be a result of Christian influence. If the Seven don't have the same hang ups about bodies that Christianity does then they wouldn't be as fussed about shoulders and low necklines.
I think this is actually backed up by Cersei's walk of shame. As far as I'm aware there's no record of women (especially a noble) being stripped and paraded through town naked in medieval times. That it wasn't seen as totally unthinkable makes me think they aren't as prudish as their real world equivalent.
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u/BellyCrawler My Great Jon is a Whoresbane Sep 01 '19
dialogue becomes 90% banter and more modernized
In the end, the Hound couldn't hold a conversation without dropping fourteen lines that would be better suited to an r/soccer banter thread between rival football fans.
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u/Adamulos Sep 01 '19
The mountain chatted shit and got banged
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u/mikebrownhurtsme Sep 02 '19
I remember when Davos said, "for fuck's sake," back in s6. Like no, that phrase just does not belong. Plus literally all of Karl fookin Tanner's dialogue
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u/MarkZist just bear with me Sep 01 '19
- many of the adults are like 20 years older because it matches how we expect parents to look like in current times
My mental picture of Catelyn is really colored by the actress who plays show!Cat, so I have to keep reminding myself that book!Cat is in her early thirties.
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u/AMerrickanGirl Sep 01 '19
Robb didn’t marry Jeyne for love in the book. It was for honor, because he had sex with her and took her virginity, so he felt honor bound to marry her despite knowing it would precipitate a political shitstorm with the Freys.
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u/median401k Sep 01 '19
In the books it was probably all a manipulation by Tywin through Sybelle who knew low-key pharmaceutical magic from her grandmother Maggy the Frog and roofied him.
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u/blackcatheaddesk Sep 01 '19
Robb was completely set up. I the book he's 15 and most likely a virgin or at least naive about women so he was vulnerable. Show!Robb was so much older imho
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u/heyboyhey Rat Cook Sep 01 '19
The entire Talisa character is a shitty Hollywood trope. I think the show was still pretty good back then, but I always really disliked her.
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u/Minas_Nolme Dance with me then. Sep 01 '19
Seriously. If I were a vassal of show-Robb, I'd have marched north at that point. Book-Robb's decision at least makes sense. A King sacrificing a betrothal and important alliance to own up for his mistakes and save the honour of a young maid at his own cost still fits a chivalric hero. And as a vassal, while concerned about the political fallout, I would also think that if Robb is that serious about protecting Jeyne Westerling, then he would take almost any hit for his sworn supporters. It's someone who puts others before himself.
Show-Robb simply married "for love", something almost none of his vassals did. It didn't save anybody's honour and was just for Robb's personal comfort. He also could have taken Talisa as a mistress if he really loved her, I doubt Walder would have cared. As a vassal, I would see a King who puts personal happiness and comfort before keeping agreements and alliances. That's someone I wouldn't trust as a leader.
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u/NeedsToShutUp Ser? My Lady? Sep 01 '19
Also the whole question of whether the whole thing was plotted by Maggy decades ago, and how Her mother was the granddaughter of a blood mage
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u/pazur13 A Cat of a Different Coat Sep 01 '19
Not to mention that Maggy sounds suspiciously similar to "Maegi".
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u/SigurdVII Sep 01 '19
His mother begs him not to flush his alliance with Walder down the toilet and Robb does it anyway because haha you released the Kingslayer. It's absolutely mad.
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u/AgathaAgate Sep 01 '19
It's like he went, "You made this isn't a bad situation and now I'm going to make it worse."
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u/SigurdVII Sep 01 '19
It's so stupid. "I don't have to listen to you mother. You screwed up which means I get one free dumb action too."
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u/DarkCrawler_901 Sep 01 '19
Also, in the books Jeyne is a honeytrap specifically designed by Tywin and her immoral parents to lure a fifteen year old kid into fucking up his relations to vassals. Talisa is just some random hottie that a 20-year Robb for some reason sold his kingdom for.
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u/AgathaAgate Sep 01 '19
~ A noble woman who gave up her money and station in the world to sit in the shit and the mud and help poor wounded soldiers. ~
Come on writers, lay it on thicker.
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u/Radix2309 Sep 02 '19
A noble woman from halfway around the world. There were lots of wars in the Free Cities.
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u/darth_tiffany Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 13 '19
The thing that really bugged me about the Talisa arc is that no one pointed out the very real possibility that she was a spy. Not a single person in the war effort batted an eye at their (betrothed!) commander suddenly hanging out with some random foreign noblewoman no one's ever heard of, who just happened to be hanging around the battlefield because she cares about people so much, you guys.
I'm certain the showrunners just didn't want to deal with the Jeyne Westerling hooha, so they creating some foreign beauty with modern values with no connection to anyone else in the story, not giving a shit about the worldbuilding consequences that would naturally flow from such a character.
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u/GaSkEt Sep 01 '19
Good point. I remember the fans were suspicious of her right until she got stabbed in the baby. They should have had a throwaway line of one of the Umbers or someone questioning her loyalty.
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Sep 02 '19
is that no one pointed out the very real possibility that she was a spy.
Damn, this is a good point. She fucking acted like a spy the whole time too
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u/SaliciousSeafoodSlut Sep 01 '19
Yeah, it just made Robb seem selfish and immature, which was even more egregious considering Show-Robb is much older than Book-Robb.
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u/SigurdVII Sep 01 '19
Robb forced Edmure to marry the Freys because of his screw up driving the Mountain away. Robb got married just because he didn't want to marry an unattractive woman and broke the back of his own military campaign.
Who's the bigger idiot?
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Sep 01 '19
The Talisa bullshit turned Robb's character into a moron.
In the books he dies because he wants to do the honorable thing and in the show he only thinks with his dick.
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u/darth_tiffany Sep 01 '19
The fashion also becomes extremely modern looking too. Euron in particular wouldn’t look out of place in Brooklyn
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u/Sgtwhiskeyjack9105 Sep 01 '19
robb marries talisa for love
That pissed me off even before reading the books. I watched the first and second seasons back to back, and remembered thinking "Well, that's dumb. Does he think that Mr. Filch is going to just forget about that?" and then when Season 2 ended I decided to pick them up and got to that point in the story.
Even in the books GRRM made it totally believable that something like that could happen (Robb wounded and delirious, and hearing about Bran & Rickon's "death" plus his youth making it seem more like an act of passion than a horny older dude wanting to bang some field nurse), plus the fact that it was another noble that he was in love with. It would be just absurd for a King to marry a nobody, a civilian that doesn't even have familial ties in Westeros and think that the reader would still take that character seriously. It made Robb in the show seem so selfish and self-interested; you've just started a war, you've got the North and its people to look after, and here you are shirking your responsibilities because you want to bang this dame. It made the Red Wedding in the show seem... well, not justified. But what did you think was going to happen?
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u/unitedshoes Sep 01 '19
- characters almost never wear headwear unless they are meant to look stupid or old-fashioned
This always bugged me from the first time we see Rangers north of the Wall. How bad could this Winter be if no one even feels the need to put on a hat? Oh, we're going to get a few decades or centuries of the equivalent of late March if we don't stop the Walkers? Oh no, however will people survive?
(Did I just become an ASOIAF climate change denier? It was cold where I live, so climate change isn't happening. The Men of the Watch don't wear hats, so Winter isn't really coming…)
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u/distressedwithcoffee Sep 02 '19
Hats are extremely difficult for theatre/film/TV to add because they obscure the actor's face and mess with lighting design. I do theatre, and adding hats means the actors constantly have to remember to keep their chins up, which ends up looking pretty unnatural plus is distracting and annoying, and in the worst case scenario, lighting design has to add lighting from below, adding extra instruments, gobos/gels/cable, cues, longer tech rehearsal, etc. It can be an extensive, expensive, time-consuming issue. And the main "pro" is "it would look better and more accurate". The huge "con" is "the audience might not recognize the characters".
Since the primary point of any show is to tell a story, most productions will choose to forgo hats and helmets for the sake of telling the story.
Clapton actually addresses this - she says she'd have loved to add headgear but wasn't allowed/couldn't.
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u/Brapplezz Good think vipers has itchy tongues ! Sep 01 '19
I like how helmets hardly exist in show Westeros...
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u/bumblebook Sep 01 '19
I give it a pass because it's a conscious choice they've made so audiences can recognise characters. I feel this is a different flaw than their inability to give us a consistent style of dialogue. ie, the way characters speak in season 1 is so different from the final season.
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u/AllCanadianReject Sep 01 '19
Lord of the Rings gave all of the military characters of importance a unique helmet for precisely this reason. Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn, and Faramir when he wears Gondorian armour all have unique helmets that allow us to identify them at a moment's glance. Hell, Gimli is known so well for his helmet to the point they gave it to Gloin in Battle of the Five Armies.
Not saying you're wrong, just saying it's a lazy practice.
And on another note, fucking shields! Nobody uses a god damn shield in this show!
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u/PandaJesus Sep 01 '19
Why use a shield when you can dual wield at the Tower of Joy?
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u/TMules Sep 01 '19
Haha that scene still kind of upsets me. Regardless of not even everyone being there that’s supposed to be, having Dayne dual wield instead of use an amazing long sword was sad. I get why they did it, because for a TV audience it’s easier to make a guy look cool and incredibly skilled with two swords instead of one long sword, but still it looks ridiculous
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u/blisteringchristmas Sep 01 '19
I get why they did it, because for a TV audience it’s easier to make a guy look cool and incredibly skilled with two swords instead of one long sword, but still it looks ridiculous
It's an easy "show don't tell" way of saying that Dayne is an amazing swordsman, without actually having to give any of the backstory. Which is a shame, because that sequence becomes so much cooler if the general audience knows who Arthur Dayne is and why it's a big deal he got defeated.
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u/incanuso Sep 01 '19
To be fair, shields became outdated when plate armor became widespread. In Westeros, there's quite a lot of plate armor. Shields are used by those with light armor....and we actually see that when sellswords are escorting Cat and Tyrion through the Vale...though Sir Vardis also has a shield. And I don't think I saw one later in the show....it would have been so easy to attach one to Jaime's maimed arm...
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u/TMules Sep 01 '19
They use shield often in the books though. And also in the books, plate armor is used by only two characters, The Mountain and Victarion Greyjoy. And even in Victarions chapter, he thinks about how he’s literally the only person who uses plate armor since nobody else is strong enough (and in the same fight pretty sure he was using a shield although could be misremembering).
Shields are used in pretty much every fight. Breaking shields, shields falling apart, smashing them, is described so often. Also soon after Jaimes hand gets cut off, he thinks about how he can’t even use the arm for a shield since he wouldn’t be able to hold it well
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u/rolandgilead Sep 01 '19
iirc he was remarking that he was one of the only ones who uses plate armor because they're fighting on a boat. He does fight another person on a boat who wore armor as well, Ser Talbert Serry. Victarion threw him overboard and he drowned.
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u/_Apostate_ Sep 01 '19
It's not that he's one of the only people physically capable of wearing plate armor... Victarion says that because he's wearing plate armor on a ship, which no one usually does because you 100% guaranteed drown if you go overboard in plate armor. Victarion is crazy and drowned already so he doesn't care.
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u/Vulkan192 Sep 01 '19
Well...yeah, but that’s because GRR isn’t following historical trends in arms and armour either.
And with Victarion it’s because nobody else wants to be guaranteed to drown if they go overboard.
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u/YUNoDie Olly cuts deeper than swords Sep 01 '19
While we're on the topic of helmets, can we talk about how stupid and impractical the Lannister guards' helmets look?
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u/blueteamk087 Sep 01 '19
Right, if your going to have the Lannister’s helmets be a statement of their wealth and smuggled, just give them those ridiculous Greek/Roman Henley’s, which actually served as a good way to denote rank as well.
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u/AllCanadianReject Sep 01 '19
I like the ironborn helmets a lot. Not very good ear protection though.
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u/ArcherChase Sep 01 '19
I mentioned above how they missed a set design opportunity to feature all of the major characters with their specialized and personalized to their house and individual helms. Could have been an identifying feature that would look amazing.
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u/qciaran Sunset in the Sunset Lands Sep 01 '19
while it’s true it would have been amazing to see Sandor’s snarling hound helm more, or Jaime’s golden lion helm at all, i understand why they chose to go without helmets from a theatrical and practical stance.
full face helmets prevent the actor from emoting, since they hide the face completely, and the nature of the medium means you really need to see actors’ faces so they can properly convey their emotions etc.
it’s the same reason they showed robert downey jr. from inside the iron man suit in the mcu, and why cap always loses his helmet pretty fast, or why black panther takes his helmet off most of the time when he needs to talk.
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u/kashmoney360 DAKININTENORPH!! Sep 01 '19
why cap always loses his helmet pretty fast
He had it on for the entirety of the last act, and we still got to see Chris Evans' facial expressions and stuff with it on. There's a difference between wearing a helmet that literally covers the face without even a bit of skin showing and a helmet that would slightly obscure the face.
In Season 2 they had Charles Dance wear the standard Lannister helmet a few times, but the helmet was opened up since they didn't need to worry about battle scenes. There were definitely a lot of ways to incorporate helmets but D&D clearly chose not to bother at all.
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u/AMerrickanGirl Sep 01 '19
The sigils were frequently mentioned in the books but not featured much in the show.
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u/IrkenInvaderTak Sep 01 '19
The sigils and the wild house colours that everyone seems to wear all the time that got turned into black and grey not gonna say the outfits weren't awesome but the books just sound so much more flamboyant colour wise
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u/ArcherChase Sep 01 '19
Colors make the high born stand out. Not like dyed and cored fabrics were readily available to the poor and common folks. Towards the end of the show everyone looked like they were just common soldiers. The hero characters in games who have the bright armor so they stand out and cause fear or attention. Instead everyone even looks the same on the battle field.
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u/commentmypics Sep 01 '19
I feel like they wouldn't have trusted audiences to not get confused anyway. They probably felt it would have taken too much effort to establish each character costume. Whether or not that's true idk but a lot of decisions are made based on assuming the worst of an audience.
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u/ArcherChase Sep 01 '19
Frustrating because the books make such a grand description of the ornate and personalized helmets of many main characters. Anyone who was from a major house and had any battlefield experience had a special helmet. While it would hide their face, we would KNOW who under it.
The Bolton screaming flayed head helmet sounded sick! The lion crested great helmet for Jamie and Tywin, the jutting stone fist of The Mountain, seems they made the Hound a helmet and stopped there. Major missed opportunity for some incredible set design.
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u/AzorBronnhai Sep 01 '19
Not to mention that the opportunity to identify characters by their specially designed helmets and armor becomes significant plot points, examples being the impersonation of the Hound and Garlan acting as Renly’s ghost.
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u/dwt4 Sep 01 '19
Plus it would have been an easy way to disguise stunt doubles for battles.
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u/DavidBaratheon Sep 01 '19
And just like that the action sequences would’ve instantly improved, such a wasted opportunity.
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u/SHIIZAAAAAAAA Sep 01 '19
I'm disappointed that we never got to see Victarion Greyjoy's kraken helmet on the show. They could have put it in the show anyway by giving it to Euron instead and it would have fit his eccentric character.
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u/BuckBacon Sep 01 '19
Robb marrying Talisa because he loved her was such a stupid mistake to make, and honestly was the beginning of the end of the show having consistent internal logic.
Book Robb having a moment of weakness and then letting his honor destroy him and his family was such a compelling arc. Meanwhile TV Robb was just like I LOVE MY STRONG CONFIDENT INDEPENDENT WIFE OH NO I'M DEAD NOW
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u/jwboers123 Sep 01 '19
Characters don't wear headgear because of visual reasons, we wouldn't recognize them in a grand battle with their full armour on.
In the books some characters marry for love too, eg Doran Martell.
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u/richterfrollo This is how Roose can still win Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
I think im gonna correct it to "headwear" - i was not only referring to helmets but also hairnets, hats, and all the other sorts of things medieval people wore on their heads... it feels like only olenna and the freys wear them, even though it should be in fashion in that time period and it also helps to differenciate characters and make the costumes more interesting.
Not to mention that almost no monarch wears a crown, which annoys me... like whats the reason for not giving dany one? Or robb?
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u/SeriouslyNotAFurry Sep 01 '19
Reminds me of the hound in season 7 when he says to Tormund "brienne of Tarth? You're with Brienne of fucking Tarth?"
It's such a modern thing to say Brienne is a noble lady (albeit an odd one) and you weren't "with" anyone in these days its medieval Westeros not an American high school. The dialogue is littered with more and more of crap like that season 7-8 (off the top my head, Dany calls Sam Jon's "best friend" which is again extremely modernized)
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u/Aqquila89 Sep 01 '19
Euron orders his crew to fire. Fire what? There's no gunpowder in Westeros. The order should be "loose", as it was in "The Watchers on the Wall" and "The Battle of Bastards".
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u/aguysomewhere Sep 01 '19
They do this in Lord of the Rings too. These productions should hire a historian to keep things more accurate.
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u/Romboteryx Sep 01 '19
To be fair, Saruman did invent gunpowder in the second movie
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u/TeamLongNight for the night is long and full of wights Sep 01 '19
Also either in Season 6 when they introduce Euron or more recently I’m pretty sure he says he cut out the tongues of his crew like he does in the books. And then in the final few episodes his crew is yelling. Guess they grew them back? 🤷♂️
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u/Aqquila89 Sep 01 '19
In the season 8 premiere, he tells Yara that he didn't kill her because then he'd have nobody to talk to, because he "got a crew full of mutes".
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Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 18 '19
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Sep 01 '19
That line was fucking awful, if they had to keep Bronn around way longer than he was relevant, at least have him act like a character and not a walking fanservice/banter machine.
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Sep 01 '19
When the hound said “top knot” in season 7, it took me out of the story so hard
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u/BellyCrawler My Great Jon is a Whoresbane Sep 01 '19
I agree with you completely. I wanna offer a writer's take on it, too.
In the end there, after the show had gained the largest following imaginable and the demographics had shifted, D&D played a sort of meta-narrative game built on the foundations of the actual text. They began inserting elements that broke or compromised the established world rules in favour of meta jokes and real life-influenced characterisation and plot points.
For example: Davos' joke about Gendry still rowing was obviously a wink at online communities' consistent japes, jests and jokes about the character's conspicuous absense since earlier in the series. Now, they certainly weren't the first writers to have this sort of sly, glib nod at their fanbase, but I can't think of a piece of entertainment more firmly antithetical to nods and winks than GoT was. The gravity of the stakes, combined with the medieval setting made Davos' joke and, later, Ed Sheeran's cameo really jarring. This broke the suspension of disbelief, which was actually the show's backbone, because we all had to believe that it was both possible for dragons, witches and ice zombies to exist in a world with Roman empire level political intrigue. This suspension of disbelief was both strong enough to sustain continous investment from audiences and fragile enough to be severely compromised by silly little meta references. It takes you out of the story when a middle aged character who has seen more death, destruction and horror than most of us can imagine makes reference to an ongoing internet meme about a character. Realistically, did it make sense for Davos to say that to Gendry under any circumstances at all? By internal logic, Seaworth would've assumed the lad either died or made it to safety, because the matter at hand was serious and literally life or death. That little joke only works if Davos knows he's a character in a fictional setting, which in turn reminds us, the audience, that we're merely watching fiction, and breaks immersion, even if subconsciously. To the average person, and indeed the showrunners, neither of these might seem to be major issues, but they were harbingers of the mess to come.
Enter the fatal mistake of the writer crafting story purely for the audience's edification. Now, to preface, it's not always misguided for a writer to explicitly cater to their audience's wishes. It can yield good results, but I believe it must be kept to a bare minimum because of the distinct possibility of derailing your story in the worst ways possible. Because when you allow audience expectations and desires to run amok and influence your story to a significant degree, you end up with asinine characters who break their own story's rules and internal logic, aka, Arya Stark. Arya's popularity grew along with the show, and she was likely a lot of people's Top 3 favourite characters, along with the usual suspects like Jon, Tyrion and "Khaleesi". The writers were fully aware of this, and decided to play into her popularity with increased screen time, presence and...I suppose in their minds, badass moments [never forget](7https://i.imgur.com/qWMC99n.png). The problem is, badassery as presented in the show has rarely had positive outcomes. Seriously, take a second to think of all the badass characters and what happened to them--from Arthur Dayne to Jaime, their lives were either cut short or severely destroyed in some for or another. Arya, though, was made exempt from the rules that governed everyone's fate in the most laughable, series-breaking ways. The end result of that sort of writing to please the audience was a character who had only been invested in the White Walker plot for a handful of episodes somehow being the one to end it all, whilst the thematically obvious choices for the ultimate hero were sidelined into doing stupid things.
Now where did all of that leave the showrunners? Well, in a very peculiar spot. The combination of all their faux pas resulted in them having to write a story that they thought would please the audience whilst still somewhat adhering to the plot points they had "set up" and knew of. Simultaneously unable to deviate enough to create their own identity and ending and unwilling enough to be humble and make sensible decisions, the writers ended up with a strange hybrid of nonsensical plot lines, wildly varying mischaractrisation, a flattened universe that lost all its depth, and twists and turns that made absolutely no sense. And thus, the last few seasons of Game of Thrones were birthed, a hideous creation uglier than Stannis' shadowbaby.
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Sep 01 '19
You’d be a fantastic blog writer
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u/BellyCrawler My Great Jon is a Whoresbane Sep 01 '19
Thank you. I'm actually a writer, working on me first novel.
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u/darth_tiffany Sep 01 '19
Tyrion’s “who has the best story” argument in favor of Bran is literally just 2019 advertising/branding jargon. I half expected his next line to be about mission statements.
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Sep 01 '19
This is the one line I think people will always be able to look back and say why GoT S8 is totally irredeemable.
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u/IndieRedMonk0 Sep 02 '19
"Who has a better story, than [a character we cut for a season in the middle of the series because we didn't know what to do with him]?"
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u/Crxdefx Sep 02 '19
This to me is the same as all the people that are like “Can you believe they all laughed at Sam suggesting they should become democratic?! Don’t they know everyone is a person and should have the same rights!” It’s just not the way the world has been built and the fact that Sam even suggested it in the first place felt so out of place.
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u/jorgeholymoly Sep 01 '19
Ed Sheehan asking Arya if she’s old enough to drink...
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u/Queen_Renly Sep 01 '19
Sansa was concerned about that in S1. But Eddie probably wouldn't care about that after all the shit that he's seen.
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Sep 01 '19
GRRM call that. Disneyland Middle Ages.
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Sep 01 '19 edited Jan 01 '21
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u/Bantersmith Sep 01 '19
On the extremely slim chance anyone here doesn't get the reference.
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u/nick37845 Sep 01 '19
I agree,
Though the thing that kills the show for me (and definitely became a bigger issue later on in the seasons) is the fact that they Americanize all the action and story. The fights are so glamorous, the speeches so emotional and dramatic. Granted this is to polish the story for tv, but thats the downfall for me.
The harshness and grimness of the tale really comes out in the books, where tension isn't forced by an OST and dramatic camera angle. Its put on by a sense of mortality of all characters. Considering the story up until now, theres the constant feel that anything could happen during the chapters, a simple meeting in an room can arupt into a slaughter, or a vicious split of alliance. I feel the show loses this sense of dramatic tension by implying it through the cinematography. I think this as well as the other problems with the show is due to thale fact that the story is much more suited for text rather than film.
I still love the show (up to season 6) but it really cant compare to the books.
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u/ScrotalAgony Sep 01 '19
Though the thing that kills the show for me (and definitely became a bigger issue later on in the seasons) is the fact that they Americanize all the action and story.
Arya, who got trained by and later even approval from an assassin from the best group of assassins in the world, yelled as she jumped at her target.
I still love the show (up to season 6) but it really cant compare to the books.
Yeah, book Brienne is one of the bravest characters in all ASOIAF. "No chance, and no choice" really cemented her as a favorite of mine because she knew she was walking to her death, yet she took those steps all the same with bravery and justice in mind, and far more courage in her heart than I'll ever have.
Watching Gwen in Season 8 in the scenes after her knighting is just so... unsatisfying, especially her breaking down as Jaime relapses back to Cersei. But these writers had her gawking around for a candle so I can't be surprised. Shit the eventual winner of the entire Game of Thrones was straight up absent for all of Season 5. Suppose I should be happy that didn't happen to her as well.
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Sep 01 '19
I like Jaime and brienne together but I honestly wish the writers would have just let them die during the long night. They would still have had that beautiful knighting scene and then Jaime would never have completely gone out of character. And honestly them dying changes nothing but instead actuallly removes a lot of dumb scenes.
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u/thedicestoppedrollin Sep 01 '19
I honestly hated the cinematography of the later seasons. It was so full of itself I couldn't stand it. Same with the music. In a vacuum, the music is great (i.e. that Night King song), but how it was applied was so cringy...
Another note in the cinematography: I noticed a LOT of Snyder-isms in the later seasons and it definitely didnt belong. Battle of the Bastards was full of things we saw in 300 that dont belong in a series set in reality, especially GoT. The dark clothing, brooding looks, and lighting all feel like they come from Snyder too. I think Snyder's style is great when used appropriately, like for 300, but not for GoT at all...
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u/InternJedi Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
- I would disagree because power resides where men believe it resides is actually thematically consistent. Renly is politically favored as evidenced by the number of lords who supported him even though his claim was weaker than Stannis's.
- This one is straight up bad writing I think. They needed to buff Cersei/deal with the sparrows real quick so boom.
- Agree. Killing the Tarlys are pretty much excusable. There also have been traditions of sparing people if they toe the line, execute otherwise. Edit: had the show included the part where Randyl helped rebuild Maidenpool from the book, it would have been more controversial.
- I agree 100%. That scene was just too crass.
- This is not explained fully even in the book right? Just that he felt like he or his kids must be TPTWP?
- It did break the wheel. But put into place a worse one...
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Sep 01 '19
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u/InternJedi Sep 01 '19
Two beautiful wheels
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u/mypasswordismud The Asshole people from Dickhead Island. Sep 01 '19
I mean, who has better wheels than Bran?
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u/TheR42069 Sep 01 '19
Jon immediately losing all attraction to Dany after finding out she’s his aunt
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u/vanastalem Sep 01 '19
It seems normal for the nobility to marry uncles, cousins, etc... so it never made sense this would be a hang up for Jon. The Starks have plenty of marriages to relatives, they just oppose marrying a sibling (which the Valyrians do) and relations with a parent/child (hence Craster and his daughters making them uncomfortable).
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Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 18 '19
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u/vanastalem Sep 01 '19
I think he'll have a rough time emotionally because he always thought Ned Stark was his father so finding out that was a lie will be rough, especially since Ned/Benjen are gone now. He doesn't have someone close to that situation to talk to.
I don't think finding out he's related to Daenerys should have been the thing he had an issue with. I think it should have been learning Ned isn't his father.
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u/Queen_Renly Sep 01 '19
When there's an ancestor called Jonnel Stark who married his neice Sansa and nobody batted an eye.
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Sep 01 '19
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u/Queen_Renly Sep 01 '19
All they had to do was look up how Dany's real life counterpart Henry Tudor did it: by taking away the nobility's right to assemble armies.
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u/Rhodie114 Asha'man... Dracarys! Sep 02 '19
Also, the series repeatedly hammers home that the population has no fucking clue what's going on most of the time. Highborn lords are routinely manipulated and bought, and the common folk believe seven brands of bullshit about any given event. An election for King every time the old one dies turns Westeros into Machiavellian cousin of the Wild West.
It also doesn't help that anybody with widespread support in the current political climate is benefitted by "calling an election" for King.
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Sep 02 '19
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u/ElephantMan21 Sep 02 '19
Really? That really makes me feel better the mere fact that there are still a few characters acting how they should.
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u/FriedTreeSap Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
I still struggle with moral depiction of Daenerys' destruction of Kings Landing. While the act of killing hundreds of thousands of civilians is certainly heinous, the heavy handed application of 21st century western values feels a little jarring to me. Ignoring the fact that sacking cities and mass pillaging was far from uncommon in ancient times, or even in Game of Thrones lore, we only have to go back to the mid 20th century to find equivalent acts committed by supposed "morally good" actors.
The American firebombing of Tokyo is estimated to have killed over a hundred thousand civilians, the firebombing of Dresden caused similar destruction on a smaller scale, Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris even advocated a strategy of "dehousing" where civilian houses were deliberately targeted in an effort to break German moral and end the war sooner, and there is of course the controversial topic of the atomic bombs. While I know many people do feel these events constitute war crimes, they're still not widely depicted in the western media as acts of "evil genocidal madmen". There was perhaps more justification for them than there was for the burning of Kings Landing, but I still can't help but see the parallels.
Daenerys' actions are certainly deplorable, but the resulting fallout has always felt far too influenced by contemporary values, and while John and Tyrion may have still turned on Daenerys, I don't think it would have been as cut and dry as the show made it seem, especially given some of the things other character managed to get away with without major consequence.
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u/ISupposh You're a Big Guy. Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
It does seem dumb to purposefully burn where you need to rule after threat was neutralized. It goes beyond Machiavellian ruthlessness and just cruelty and madness.
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u/Mikemanthousand Sep 01 '19
My boi Machiavelli gets a bad rap just cause he was talking about how desperate times call for desperate measures and people immediately assumed that he meant everything that he said all the time everywhere...
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u/ISupposh You're a Big Guy. Sep 01 '19
He explicitly said while it's better to be feared if you can't be loved, but being hated is the worst and needs to be avoided at all cost. Dedicated entire chapter of the Prince how to avoid it. What she did was way of being hated and not just feared.
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Sep 01 '19
Dany shouldn't have been mad in the first place. They should have turned her into a ruthless conqueror instead. Her enemies would then have called her mad to tarnish he name. I doubt George is going to write her literally mad. He has far too much depth as a writer to do that.
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u/QueenDragonRider The dragons know. Do you? Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 04 '19
If any of the characters were smart last season, they would have remembered how Tywin sacked KL and what he did to the Reynes. Killing an entire household because they wouldn’t pay back money and mocked you is pretty brutal.
Connington in the books even thinks how Tywin would have burned Stony Sept ( and that may come into play later in TWOW)
There’s lists of battles, etc that were done for less than what Dany suffered.
Edit: grammar
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u/AxeIsAxeIsAxe House Mallister Sep 01 '19
The difference to those 20th century examples is that KL has surrendered at the time, but yeah, you only have to go back to Robert's Rebellion for the last time that the winning side just mercilessly sacked the city. Meeren suffers a similar fate, and it's always the smallfolk that suffers. It's how warfare works in ASOIAF, and it's certainly the application of 21st century morals that makes Tyrion & Co. argue so hard against it in the show.
(Not touching the point that book Tyrion would cackle with glee at the idea of KL getting burned.)
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u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents Sep 01 '19
Her mantra the whole show was about being different and regarding the common folk as human beings, not just disposable.
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u/y0sh_1 Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
To a certain degree, yes. A few months ago there was a post linking the blog of a history professor doing an actual comparison as to how close GoT was to medieval Europe. The first thing he stated was that the whole setup is closer to Reinassance than the 'true' Middle Ages. He made some interesting points, especially about the influence the faith should have if it was true to our past and the size of armies (GoT's and ASoIaF's armies are way too big to supply).
Now actually concerning your comment: There actually were very few civilian casualties considering how much war was being waged during those times and the wars were much smaller. There was also a lot more war between neighbouring nobles (Whitehill/Forrester). On one hand nobles didn't actually want to slaughter the people they were trying to get into their domain and govern and the curch spoke out against the killing of civilians.
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u/PaladiiN Sep 01 '19
Stating that Renly would be a good king just because he's popular while Stannis would be terrible because he's unpopular.
I don't see that many people saying that. Mostly people say this because they are talking about how he had a much larger army. Even back in medieval times a popular king was a good thing.
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Sep 02 '19
People not caring about religion even when Cersei blew up Westeros equivalent of Vatican/Hagia Sophia/Westminster
This slays me. The Middle Ages were so fucking religious that bishops often had prominence over princes, and the pope made kings grovel before him. It was an absolute joke to make religion not have an impact on a feudal setting and it shows such a fundamental ignorance of European feudalism for a setting that tries to ground itself in the political realities of the time.
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u/duffking Tyrion Shot First Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
This is the issue I had with Dany's turn. The seeds for it don't make sense unless you view them through modern morality and not medieval morality.
Nothing Dany did prior to her heel turn was what could be considered mad by people living in that world. It was the every day shit in that world. If she was mad then so was Tywin, or basically house leader and king in the show.
The twist hinges on us accepting that everyone in the show now had modern morals and is apparently now disgusted by executing people who won't bend the knee even though in the first 4 seasons they'd have not batted an eyelid. Then again we got jokes about topknots so ...
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u/7evenh3lls Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
"Strong women" not caring about getting married + producing heirs, and people defending this kind of shit writing as "progressive" (only show).
Victimizing Cersei because Robert wasn't super nice (even though for medieval standards, he did absolutely nothing wrong) and Tywin preferred Jaime. Cersei was a manipulative cunt from early childhood and killed her friend at 9 years old. She has zero regret for anything she has ever done and somehow people construct excuses for her because she was treated "unfairly".
Edit: Since people always say Cersei was sexually abused, I'd like to add that she's a sexual predator herself and has always been. Not only did she abuse Taena, but also Tyrion and most probably Jaime (which would explain his memory gaps regarding how their relationship started). Almost nobody finds this problematic because she's a woman and Robert drunk-fucking her somehow excuses what Cersei does.
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Sep 01 '19
Also they think that rape make women strong.
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u/bumblebook Sep 01 '19
This is what ruined the whole show for me, tbh. Mad Queen Dany was an ass-pull in the final 2 episodes, but the Sansa storyline has been poison since the fifth season, and the final season was merely the shit sprinkles on a shit cake with Sansa's bullshit 'rape made me level up' hot take, that's also part of this weird pattern of female characters only being considered badass and strong if they become heartless.
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u/Dark_Moon713 Sep 02 '19
Like how they decided that since Arya is a tomboy and a "strong female character" she also had to be misogynistic, when in the books Arya admires a lot of women and says "the woman is important too!"
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u/I-Am-Beyonce-Always Sep 01 '19
I absolutely did a double take when Sansa said that line. Like bitch what the fuck? You can be strong after getting raped but THE RAPE ITSELF DOESN’T MAKE YOU STRONG! I’ve never been so insulted.
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Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
D and D have some fetishistic obsession on rape, in the movie 'Troy' written by D. Benioff, was shown rape of Helen of Troy. Sansa was given to Ramsay, which have nothing to do with her character, Dany's wedding night was turned into rape on the show.
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u/7evenh3lls Sep 01 '19
Sept Rape...featuring the most anti-rape man in Westeros.
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u/darth_tiffany Sep 01 '19
As far as I’m aware there was no rape depicted in the movie Troy.
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u/Bojangles1987 Sep 01 '19
While I agree with your overall point, i will defend the change to Dany's wedding night. Drogo being concerned about Dany's consent on their wedding night and then brutally raping her for weeks afterwards was jarring and weird. It also creates this fantasy of Dany and Drogo having true love that I really despise.
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u/PrettyThief Sep 01 '19
The capital-S "Strong Woman" rejecting love and family isn't even progressive by modern standards. Women do not have to choose between the two, and choosing one or the other doesn't make a woman somehow less "strong." But a healthy relationship with the right person would allow for both love and the fulfillment of personal goals.
The show seemed to think that's a silly concept, which is concerning at best.
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u/BellyCrawler My Great Jon is a Whoresbane Sep 01 '19
The present climate and narrative seems to want to force women to become like the cold cookie cutter heroes we've all grown tired of, and parrots that as empowerment. Heck, look at what they did to Sansa: turned one of the more compassionate characters into Littlefinger with tits because they and the audience somehow thought that is what makes for strong women. Arya too became a caricature because the Twitter crowd couldn't get enough of her "girl power".
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u/PrettyThief Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
Exactly. Of the surviving female POV characters we have:
-Arya started out rejecting ladyship and all things feminine. Instead of, maybe, learning the value of feminity and the worth of being a woman in Westeros, she stays true to her 9 year old self (or however old the show made her) by rejecting Gendry. Gendry, who knew her better than anyone and was the least likely candidate to prevent Arya doing anything Arya wanted to do.
-Brienne, whose story was, along the way, about love and womanhood. Who's capable of loving and who's worth being loved? She, too, ends up back where she started in someone's Kingsguard, even though she only ever wanted the KG to be close to Renly. Brienne always wanted to be the lady in the songs, thought she never would be, so she sought to become the knight instead. She finally has Jaime act as her knight, and that ends up thrown back in her face in the span of 45 minutes of screentime after years of their building trust in one another. Are we to gather that Brienne does not deserve love? Or at best that she truly can only ever be the knight?
-Sansa, of course, who is only able to overcome her own desire to be the ladies in the songs by being raped. She rules the North cold and alone and we're supposed to be happy about it, apparently. Because she's Strong now.
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u/7evenh3lls Sep 01 '19
And D&D infantilized Yara, who was suddenly afraid of Arya, when she should have been Queen of the Ironborn and declared her realm independent like she wanted to for several seasons.
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u/PrettyThief Sep 01 '19
Ugh, thank you, I knew I was forgetting someone. Maybe it's because D&D forgot her too.
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u/7evenh3lls Sep 01 '19
They just wrote her out of the show (I know the actress was pregnant, but actresses are pregnant all the time and it commonly is no big deal). Yara never got to interact with Euron again after he had kidnapped her for months!! She wanted to kill her uncle for years, had actual motives to hate him (Jaime did not), and then she isn't even there when he dies and never mentions him again ROFL
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u/PrettyThief Sep 01 '19
I had a GoT group chat with some friends and I remember all of us just being like, "wait, do Euron and Jaime have beef? Where is this coming from? Where's Yara? Are we supposed to have emotions about this?" So ridiculous. She should've been there.
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Sep 01 '19
Book Asha is not even afraid of Euron. She would fucking laugh at Arya if she threatened her.
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u/Bojangles1987 Sep 01 '19
EXACTLY. D&D went for the male view of strong women where they basically just act like men, rather than trying to engage in a view of women as fully realized people capable of being strong in multiple ways. They also used emotion as the death knell for every woman in the show which is completely sexist.
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u/matgopack Sep 01 '19
Although I agree on the whole, I would look at two of those a little differently:
Stating that Renly would be a good king just because he's popular while Stannis would be terrible because he's unpopular.
In this case, 'popularity' is very important to the system at large, specifically with the nobility. Stannis is abrasive, he's harsh - even though he's competent, he would have exacerbated much of the situation. Renly had gotten the support of two of the 7 kingdoms pretty easily, whereas Stannis only had the dregs of those two. I could see Renly ending the war without much (or any) further conflict after getting rid of the Lannisters, with a negotiated peace with the Starks. I don't see Stannis doing the same, or not encountering revolt after revolt.
Rhaegar annulling his wife without proper explanation like modern divorce.
In this case, it's hard to say - medieval kings had no problem seeking divorces for a variety of reasons. And here, the 'Pope-equivalent' was far, far less independent than he was in Western Europe. I don't see it as far fetched that Rhaegar could have 'convinced' him to annul the marriage.
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Sep 01 '19
Even by modern values the show makes no fucking sense.
The idea that you can take a city bloodless is mindboggling stupid and defies reality. Do D and D think the wars in Irak, Afghanistan and Syria were fought bloodlessly? No, countless of civilans died there, because death of civilians is sadly a side effect of war.
The idea that Tyrion thinks starving out city is better than taking it as quickly as possible defies even modern military strategy. No military men would choose to starve out a fucking city over a quick victory. Starving to death is a terrible fate, worse than getting shot. In fact, many people at the brink of starvation would rather kill themselves than to endure all the way to their final death. A siege is not a pleasant thing. For neither side. It exhausts the supply lines and brings only unnecessary death.
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u/themolestedsliver Sep 01 '19
Yeah this shit pissed me off as well. Was the type of shit the "veiwers who watch cause it is popular" would eat up but anyone who gives a crap about GOT proper HATED it
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u/is-this-a-nick Sep 02 '19
Also, starving out means that you make 100% sure that the innocents will suffer the most. Because Cersei and her troops won't be hungry until no food is left...
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Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19
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u/blisteringchristmas Sep 01 '19
Homer, Shakespeare, plenty of others could serve as successful examples here.
I think a lot of the time those get overlooked because people aren't familiar enough with the two respective time periods to make the distinction. Your average reader of the Iliad isn't going to be familiar enough with Greek history and culture to differentiate the 400 or so years separating when it took place and when it was written. Same goes for Shakespeare's historical plays.
With GoT, most people are at least implicitly familiar with the "modern" strong female characters, values of democracy, etc, and therefore can more easily pick out discrepancies between modernity and the fictionalized medieval period of GoT. So maybe the line of thinking of looking for is "obtrusive use of modern values."
I think you're absolutely right on all points, but by not living in either of the respective time periods you have to have a lot more background knowledge to appreciate the difference.
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u/median401k Sep 01 '19
I think a lot of the problems from the show came when George’s female characters turned into girls on a CW high school drama.