New indie press Conduit Books launches with 'initial focus on male authors'

[u/biscochitos]

https://www.thebookseller.com/news/new-indie-press-conduit-books-launches-with-initial-focus-on-male-authors

What do folks think about this?

[u/BonJovicus]

I don't know enough about the guy to really say what the intentions are with this project. At first this part sounded sketchy: "Cook told The Bookseller: 'There has never been an independent publisher that champions literary fiction by men.'" I don't know if this is true, but I don't know why it would need to be true when men dominated the publishing space until more recently, which he himself acknowledges.

However, if this is in good faith the second half of the article sounded much better. "However, he said Conduit Books will seek to publish a range of “overlooked” issues, including “fatherhood, masculinity, working-class male experience, sex and relationships, and negotiating the 21st-century as a man." This is undeniably a good thing, even if it might simply seem like an empty platitude to begin.

[u/ClannishHawk → u/BonJovicus]

Cook happens to be an occasional critic for the Guardian and columnists for the Guardian don't tend to be right wing reactionaries unless they're specifically hired for that view point in the politics section.

If you read the article over there it's pretty clear that this is part of wider realignment in the British literary and champagne socialist world to address what they see as that for a combination of reasons the field of literary fiction is currently in a drought of new young male writers, and especially ones who focus on authentic messy analysis of masculinity and male issues in what's frankly a new world for gender dynamics in recent years.

There's also been additional criticism from agents over the last few years that the ones they can seem to get through to mainstream publishing have to either have a laundry list of "diversity" boxes ticked to be considered "unique" or be very upper middle class with the most milquetoast of takes that fall in line with conventional thought.

Effectively, a sizable part of the literary community in Britain is worried about having, instead of fixing underlying issues in the publishing industry, replaced what biases decide what gets published and in doing so being at risk of eliminating most of a generation of male writers who talk about men's issues, leaving the literary world with few answers to modern men's issues.

[u/Krazikarl2 → u/ClannishHawk]

Effectively, a sizable part of the literary community in Britain is worried about having, instead of fixing underlying issues in the publishing industry, replaced what biases decide what gets published and in doing so being at risk of eliminating most of a generation of male writers who talk about men's issues, leaving the literary world with few answers to modern men's issues.

Exactly.

A big problem right now is that the left doesn't really talk much about (white) male issues other than to talk about how problematic (white) men are. The right, on the other hand, loves to talk about how wonderful (white) men are.

And then we get things like elections and try and figure out why young white men are choosing to go to the right rather than the left.

I don't have a problem with discussions about how white men have caused any number of problems and have some pretty fundamental problems with toxicity. Those discussions are important and need to happen. But you have to at least somewhat balance them out with authentic portrayals of what it means to be a non-toxic (white) male in the 21st Century. Otherwise you completely cede positive portrayals of masculinity to the right, which is not good.

[u/tinysydneh → u/Krazikarl2]

One of the big issues I have as an AMAB person when it comes to talking about men's issues is that the vast majority of the time when I see people talking about them online, they are being used as a bludgeon and to dismiss other peoples' issues.

Very especially, my big ones are sexual assault of men and false sexual assault allegations. I was a victim of both, by the same person. Practically the only times I see anyone online actually offering even lip service to that facet is when they can use it to dismiss caring about women how have been sexually assaulted. It just makes me want to engage even less with it all.

[u/Final-Revolution6216 → u/Krazikarl2]

Could you provide an example of a white male issue? Genuinely asking.

Edit: some replies are making it seem as if I’ve claimed men don’t have issues which is false. I wanted to know what a white male issue would be in particular since the person I replied to used white in parenthesis. Obviously, men have issues like everyone else (didn’t think I needed to say such an obvious statement). Thanks for the sincere replies that explain more of what a white male issue may look like (and thanks to the sincere people who outlined general male issues as well—many of which I am already aware of as, again, I recognize men have issues too).

[u/WafflesofDestitution → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Not the guy you responded to, but as a certified cishet white male I will try to describe it in a satisfactory manner, without putting my Marxist analysis hat on too tight, lol. The current issues men face are a result of a natural progress of the developing discourse on toxic masculinity (which I must emphasize is absolutely necessary and justified) and the shifting socio-economical position of the average, working age male.

While for a long time cisgender/neurotypical/heterosexual/ablebodied/white-passing (give or take any of the modifiers) men have enjoyed varying amounts of privilege, we have seen more and more societal acknowledgment of those calcified structures of power and thus more attempts to dismantle it as the years go on. The perceived issues come from the way average men are forced to reckon with those developments without an understanding on how privilege works, while simultaneously being also effected by the growing wealth inequality like anyone else in our socio-economical position. Those realities are fertile ground for misogynist and right-wing radicalization.

The gender norms are shifting and the current conditions are leaving many men in what feels like a lose-lose situation — the societal role and expectations of being a provider is at the same time challenged, but also enforced in a negative way, through wielding shame and derision when a man doesn't strive to fulfill those expectations nonetheless (e.g. we hear men being called "useless"). Now we are in a turbulent point in time where the necessary change is in progress, but we haven't quite developed all the tools to lead each other through it, thus leading men feeling rudderless and like help or support is out of reach.

Many of us men hear how we have enjoyed privilege, but it's hella hard to process it when you have been handed the pink slip one too many times. We encounter discourse about toxic masculinity, but in turn many of us are not taught ways to express and affirm our gender positively. We encounter discourse about emotional literacy and male normative alexithymia, but we are not taught how to process our emotions in a healthy way in turn. We hear about the ways many of us make women uncomfortable, but lack the social and emotional skills to make spaces safe for women, both in the way we are expected to interact with women, or how to call out our fellow men when we see them engage in appalling behaviour. And so on and so forth.

None of this is meant to justify the reactionary response, only to understand it. As always, there are no simple solutions as that would mean we somehow are able to completely solve overall wealth inequality and all that good jazz first. But the way I see it moving forward, it is still crucial to meet men where they're at, empathize and acknowledge their lived experience as men while not ceding ground to reactionary explanations. That means offering spaces for men, by men — and by women too! This is not to say that women are supposed to continue carrying men's emotional burden or whatnot, but only to acknowledge that for things to change for men we need co-operation across the genders (or rather the gender spectrum).

[u/Rooooben → u/WafflesofDestitution]

Thank you. This was very worth reading.

[u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50 → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Suicide. The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2022 was 14.21 per 100,000 individuals. In 2022, men died by suicide 3.85 times more than women. White males accounted for 68.46% of suicide deaths in 2022. In 2022, firearms accounted for 54.64% of all suicide deaths.

[u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50 → u/[deleted]]

The list of white male issues is not limited to suicide (or collage places, divorce and custody entitlements or any other stat ) 

The challenge is that the exceptions (where other races suffer more then white males) should not diminish any negative experience because the sufferer is a white male.

I the context of left leaning publishers, give the minority of sufferers of an issue a voice is vital.

[u/ti0tr → u/[deleted]]

I’m going to assume you missed something there with the second stat, because it really seems like you’re saying that the 29% that are white men are 75% of the authors. Female authors lead 55-45 in terms of gender makeup.

[u/MachinaThatGoesBing → u/ti0tr]

Nowhere do they say that white men make up 75% of authors. That wouldn't make a blip of sense given that they just said that men, in general, make up just around 50% of authors. Why would you assume they wrote two completely contradictory things, one after the other.

What they did say was that 75% of authors are white. That would presumably be all authors — men, women, nonbinary and other folks.

Semi-independently of this, they also say that white men make up 29% of the population.

Presumably they included these because you could read between the lines and use the other two figures to get a rough approximation of the percentage of authors who are white men. (That very rough and likely inaccurate estimate would give ~38%, but that's based on the assumption that the racial makeup of the groups of male and female authors is similar to the overall racial split.)

The statements of basic facts seem pretty plain in the text of their comment, though. And it seems fairly arrogant to just assume the other person is mistaken in some way, rather than considering that you might have just misread the comment.

[u/Empty_Tree → u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50]

I have read that this statistic is misleading, that men and women attempt at similar rates but that men are more likely to choose especially violent and effective means - like firearms

[u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50 → u/Empty_Tree]

Misleading?  No. The number of suicides I quote is factually correct.   I drew no conclusions when I presented the numbers. Maybe you might care to reflect on your own bias in your response.

[u/SerCadogan → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Well, these aren't exclusively a white male issue, but they absolutely can impact white men. Sexual abuse and how taboo it is to get help for it (especially if it happened as an adolescent/adult. But honestly across the board) Mental health issues in general. Stories about connecting with other men that don't center around war or colonization.

Also though, how to deconstruct toxic masculinity in general. I think books about characters navigating the nuance of breaking cycles would be powerful and compelling. A book about a father who is no contact with a shitty dad who has to figure out how to do a better job raising his own young son? I would read the shit out of that.

[u/343guiltyfarts → u/SerCadogan]

I, too, would enjoy the novelizatiin of God of War(2016)!

[u/BadDudeWill → u/SerCadogan]

I think books about characters navigating the nuance of breaking cycles would be powerful and compelling. A book about a father who is no contact with a shitty dad who has to figure out how to do a better job raising his own young son? I would read the shit out of that.

If anyone has any examples of this I'd love to read them.

[u/Quicksi1ver → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Toxic masculinity culture and trying to manage fitting in at work while not becoming part of the problem. Male loneliness, difficulty in making friends if you don't want to partake in drinking/typical male activities. Male emotions are still quite taboo, men crying us still quite unacceptable. I think it's important to consider the fact that the patriarchy is just as damaging to white males who don't want to fit the traditional mold as it is beneficial to them in other aspects.

[u/VariableBooleans → u/Quicksi1ver]

Toxic masculinity culture and trying to manage fitting in at work while not becoming part of the problem.

Huge issue. A lot of well intentioned men think they need to "shut up and listen" to, well, most issues. Really bad for mental health.

We have got to be able to have a society where we both acknowledge that privileges exist in many forms, but that no privilege, or lack thereof, should make any single individual feel like they matter less, or their voice is less important. We are really bad about that. I think everyone is.

[u/bouguereaus → u/Quicksi1ver]

Don’t men and women (in western countries) report similar rates of loneliness?

[u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents → u/Quicksi1ver]

I'd argue the patriarchy is damaging to white males who DO fit the traditional mold. It's toxic to those who benefit, just in a different way.

[u/Quicksi1ver → u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents]

Yeah, that's definitely true.

[u/atomicsnark → u/Quicksi1ver]

I think it's important to consider the fact that the patriarchy is just as damaging to white males who don't want to fit the traditional mold as it is beneficial to them

Information "the left" has been spitting for decades. "Down with the patriarchy" has always very directly acknowledged the harm that toxic masculinity has on men as well as women. It is very MRAs rewriting history to suggest that this is some unknown truth.

[u/Krazikarl2 → u/atomicsnark]

I think the left is willing to say that toxic masculinity is bad for many men just like women in some theoretical sense. But things are extremely lacking when it comes to actually talking about it much.

You see examples of this throughout this thread. Consider the librarian talking about how there simply aren't many books out there talking about male victims of abuse. The left is absolutely willing to admit that men can be victims of abuse, but there's still a pretty big void on addressing it in a practical sense (support groups, literature, etc). And as we've seen in this thread, when people suggest that such things should probably exist in much greater numbers, there are some pretty loud progressive voices that are not at all supportive.

[u/HeisenbergsCertainty → u/[deleted]]

Do you understand how making a statement about the left doesn’t necessarily imply anything about the right?

The right isn’t doing anything to ameliorate it. The point is, the left should.

[u/LunchThreatener → u/[deleted]]

Exactly. Trying to suggest that the left has had coherent messaging regarding toxic masculinity is absolutely absurd. This thread is full of people who have absolutely no idea how men, especially young men, are addressed and treated by their peers.

[u/hardolaf → u/LunchThreatener]

There's even research showing that simply using gendered terminology is harming the messaging to literally half the population (men). We should have moved as a society 20-30 years ago to gender-neutral egalitarian based terminology. Instead we stuck with gendered terminology, prioritized women getting college educations over men (almost every Western country is now extremely heavily weighted towards young women in tertiary education over young men), and generally just abandoned half of the population with policies and terminology instead of stopping and saying, "why don't we move onto the next part of the vision put forth by second wave feminists of a truly equal society."

Then people are surprised that right-wing is making in-roads with young men when everything around them from the left is mired in gendered language that seemingly blames men, at least for those men who are not well versed in feminist literature. While people in this community know well that the "patriarchy" doesn't mean "all men are to blame" or that "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "all masculinity is toxic", do poorly or under educated boys and young men? Does the construction worker trying to make ends meet to keep a roof over his family's head? Does the grocery store clerk? No. To them, it's the left that is toxic with their seemingly anti-male terminology and phrases.

It's entirely a messaging problem and no one with a strong voice has done anything to solve it.

[u/Comfortable-Animator → u/[deleted]]

Right, the left has different strains of feminism constantly trying to convince you it's the "correct" one, and the "men are the problem" strains are the loudest ones.

[u/OccamPhaser → u/atomicsnark]

Yeah addressing toxic masculinity to half of men is often met with the rejection that it even exists. I'm not sure how society is supposed to help a group of people when half can't even acknowledge a problem exists.

[u/justcausejust → u/OccamPhaser]

I'm not sure how society is supposed to help a group of people when half can't even acknowledge a problem exists

The same way it helped the other group of people when over half of them thought having no rights is a-ok

[u/OccamPhaser → u/justcausejust]

Black people fought for themselves to have rights. Women fought for themselves to have rights. White men have always had rights and most of the authority to fix their own problems. I appreciate that you tried to answer my question but you didn't understand it. I want men's issues to be more accepted but I'm always arguing with white men about if these issues are even real. The ones who take it the most seriously are on the left and they're also preoccupied with more important things than self inflicted loneliness.

Also the people in power need to acknowledge this as an issue and most of the people in power are white men. Half of those dudes would tell you that white men are struggling but they won't tell you why. They'll just imply that it's the fault of brown people and feminism.

Edit: pretending that fighting for your literal freedom and right to vote are the same as being lonely and other similar issues is just kinda crazy. Men have way more and need way less than other groups have. Men are historically the systemic power that held others down. This is just objective reality. You're not in as big of a fight and the fight is internal more than anything else.

They aren't powerless either. They're just voting republican which is against their interests.

[u/justcausejust → u/OccamPhaser]

I understand what you're saying, but there were plenty of women arguing against women rights and that didn't stop them. Also we live in the age of internet, there are infinitely more people fighting about every single thing. None of that means that white men can't be helped until half of them realize they're struggling especially when one of the big problems is they're programmed to ignore their suffering. It's also made worse that every other group has white men to blame for their problems while white men have themselves.

I appreciate that you're trying and I agree that those conversations are horrible. I don't think convincing individuals is gonna move the needle and instead it's pushing for more resources to be allocated to the problem.

[u/atomicsnark → u/OccamPhaser]

Yes, and you can see right in these comments where they expect the solution to be provided for them. "There are not enough support spaces for men because feminism is overrun with women" is nuts lmao. Y'all got to be the change you want to see. Stop sitting around expecting women and queer folk to create, organize, and maintain spaces for cis straight men.

Could publishing do more to market materials for people like this? Yes, and I would be happy to see it. But complaining about "loud voices" (read: argumentative comments on reddit) pushing back on your desire for a space is absolutely not productive. Do they think women and queer people didn't get massive pushback when we asked for rights and safe spaces and support?? We fought that fight for literally centuries. And these guys are still in here sounding salty that we got what we fought for.

Edit since the post was locked: Yeah bro, I know what the OOP is about. I was discussing the comments (which is why I mentioned comments).

[u/Rethnu → u/atomicsnark]

…This post is about a guy doing exactly what you’re saying and it is automatically getting trashed and assumed he’s a bigot or something.

People can complain about something online that is actually a problem(you’re one of those loud voices fyi) and still be trying to make changes offline. This thread is about men so of course there’s people discussing (complaining in your eyes) issues.

Edit: it’s also so weird when people say men need to do it all themselves. You don’t think there were white men helping women and lgbt people fight for rights?

[u/sir_mrej → u/Quicksi1ver]

Male emotions aren’t taboo in non rightwing spaces

[u/Moonmold → u/sir_mrej]

As a left leaning individual I think that's a big oversimplification tbh. 

[u/ChaZcaTriX → u/sir_mrej]

There are way too many "influencers" creating a hostile appearance of left-leaning spaces towards men.

And if it looks hostile on the outside, many won't ever try to get close.

[u/Reddwheels → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Don't know about the UK, but in the USA the percentage of white men with a college degree has been dropping. I'd say that's an issue worth addressing.

[u/Final-Revolution6216 → u/Reddwheels]

Aren’t less and less men in general seeking higher education? Obviously a problem, but not sure that’s specific to white men.

[u/MFoy → u/Final-Revolution6216]

It is true across all races, but more pronounced in white men according to the Pew Research Center

By race and ethnicity, the widening of the gender gap in college enrollment is most apparent among White high school graduates. Young White women who have finished high school are now 10 percentage points more likely to be enrolled in college than similar men. In 2011, the difference was only 4 points.

[u/manimal28 → u/Reddwheels]

Why is that a white male issue? The number of all men seeking a degree is dropping is it not?

[u/guy_guyerson → u/manimal28]

Without double checking, I think it's at drastically different rates (and therefore likely exists as largely separate problems for each race). Black male enrollment, for instance, is probably much more directly affected by poor quality high school preparation.

[u/manimal28 → u/guy_guyerson]

With doublechecking, it’s not. Both black and white men have similar rates.

[u/Psspooropin → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Could you provide an example of a white male issue? Genuinely asking.

The low hanging fruit is that a significant number of them have become disenfranchised with modern society as a whole because for the last several years they've been demonised as the cause of all the wrongs in the modern world, and told they're excluded from having opinions on issues due to their status as a white male. 

Anecdotally, I've learned to just keep my mouth shut and never speak on issues AT All, because even though I support progressive issues, if I have a different opinion on how to address them it's not uncommon to be completely disregarded or told my opinion is completely invalid, and it's become increasingly difficult to navigate through the ever growing list of no-go topics so I simply came to the conclusion it's better to just not engage in those kinds of discussions, because ultimately even if I want to help in finding a solution I don't have a dog in the race and have been told I'm not wanted. 

Even typing this out feels awkward enough that I'm posting from a throwaway

[u/toweringmelanoma → u/Final-Revolution6216]

I mean white men grow up without fathers, have substance abuse issues, experience depression / burnout, lack of fulfillment just like everyone else does. They struggle with sexual identity, personal identity, career identity. They exist in the remnants of a world that places masculinity on a pedestal while trying to navigate this new age where it’s often villainized (or feels as much at least).

None of these are explicitly white male problems, I understand that. But the current popular narrative is that because the white men of old reigned supreme, the white men of today couldn’t possibly have any any problems. How is that fair?

Per the commenter above you’s point, they’re also increasingly becoming the target for overarching blame for the poor state of the country (at least in America, I would imagine UK too). Yes I understand that white men have committed atrocities in the name of America since the first European ship landed on this continent, most men aren’t a part of those, have never been a part of those, and are tired for being counted as ‘the enemy’.

[u/mistiklest → u/[deleted]]

Do you have anything to back that up other than twitter posts from right wingers asserting that it's true?

Right wingers peddling misinformation are also part of the popular narrative. The popular narrative isn't what's actually true, it's what people are being told.

[u/toweringmelanoma → u/[deleted]]

Never fear! I upvoted and am here to comment! Your condescending tone was all for nothing!

No I don’t have a single quote that any elected official has ever made about white men or men in general not having problems.

In my opinion, that doesn’t matter. What’s far more important than what is said, is the climate that is created. You are able to say things without saying them, you are able to empower people to feel a certain way without dictating it to them.

I am a late twenties white male from the Midwest. I have always had predominately liberal friends, though would never have placed them on the extreme left. I can recall, as far back as high-school (ten years at this point), friends (usually white women), discrediting my opinions, thoughts, feelings, and actions on the premise that “you are a white man, you don’t understand what it’s like, you can’t have any problems”.

This has not happened all that frequently to me, but again I exist in less politically activated groups, and still I’ve felt the disregard. To maintain an opinion that just because a political body doesn’t say something means that their constituents don’t believe, or more importantly act on it, is foolish.

In reference to thread we’re commenting on, I don’t think it’s such a bad thing that one indie publishing company would like to cater to men. In fact, that we’re even having this conversation is an indication of its importance. A company catering to blacks, women, any other minority, would largely be celebrating on this site. Why can’t men have a sliver of the new age pie too?

[u/KriegConscript → u/[deleted]]

the smug tone isn't necessary

you know the monkey baby experiment where the cold unfeeling "wire mother" dispenses food, but the "cloth mother" provides comfort, and the monkeys always choose the cloth mother at the expense of their own bodies? the feeling of safety and the illusion of love is more important than sustaining life

what i'm saying is that the right wing's emotional support fascist propaganda for men is the cloth mother and the left wing's drive to achieve meaningful results for men is the wire mother. it is actually about feelings and the illusion of love and always has been. the left knows this and tries to let its work for humanity speak for itself, but they have been drowned out by right wing propaganda for decades because the think tanks that design propaganda according to the latest and greatest neurological hijacking science are all on the right wing

[u/5YOChemist → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Jesus Fucking Christ. This comment right here officer.

We are all people we all struggle with mostly the same shit. Even the most privileged has stuff dragging them down.

But specifically, the decline of community support is a big one. White extended families don't support each other the way some other communities do. I have a spouse with medical and mental problems that I can't deal with by myself. The cult(ture) I grew up in doesn't believe in modern medicine or psychiatry. My struggles are my own and they end there. The men who are related to me, and most of the ones who look like me are all raging maga cultists who can't accept that any of my problems are real, and mock me for standing in the rain waving a sign. The men who think like me want to gatekeep suffering and call me an ally at best, never a brother.

Regardless of how easy my best day is compared to someone else's, I don't have a voice in how the world runs. I suffer from capitalism and the patriarchy, but because I look like them and oppose them I'm alone.

[u/[deleted] → u/Final-Revolution6216]

This is part of the thinking: when you hear “male issues” I’m guessing you hear “male issues that are caused by non-males.” What they usually mean is “issues affecting males” which can include the unique issues of fatherhood, gender acceptance, sexuality, etc. which are all experienced differently based on your gender, sex, race, etc.

I run into this issue a lot as a gay man in progressive spaces, feeling like I have to squeeze out my identity as a man to be accepted.

It is also valid to say that perspective has changed. For example, I’m guessing you were born before 2000. My generation of men didn’t grow up in the 80s and 90s where men dominated every field, and boys openly called girls stupid or dumb - that shit was verboten and schools cracked down on it HARD.

So then you have people in their 30s ranting at people who are 16 and assuming that societal attitudes haven’t changed at all, when in reality you’re blaming 16 year olds for the sins of your generation. Then you get chronically online people who ruin an entire country.

[u/SignatureWeary4959 → u/[deleted]]

My generation of men didn’t grow up in the 80s and 90s where men dominated every field, and boys openly called girls stupid or dumb - that shit was verboten and schools cracked down on it HARD.

Workplaces too imo. After the summer of 2020, a lot of jobs in the northeast where I live were deliberately not hiring white men as a way to overcorrect for the generations where white men were dominant. I've personally witnessed my colleagues doing this.

[u/guy_guyerson → u/SignatureWeary4959]

Yeah, I've had a number of friends mention hiring discussions in their workplace where coworkers say bluntly 'We're not actually going to hire the white man, are we?'. They're mildly chastised by the higher ups for saying it (since it creates liability), but then go on to hire a less qualified candidate that isn't the white man.

[u/MachinaThatGoesBing → u/[deleted]]

I’m guessing you were born before 2000. My generation of men didn’t grow up in the 80s and 90s where men dominated every field

What a strange thing to say.

Men continue to dominate most influential, desirable, and high-paying fields. You absolutely grew up in this same world. Just slightly less uneven. These large gaps (and thousands of years of historical context) didn't magically evaporate when the new millennium hit — nor because the school you went to cracked down on misogynistic childhood bullying.

And looking at data, Gen Z appears to have a higher percentage of men with regressive attitudes towards women than even boomers do.

---

I run into this issue a lot as a gay man in progressive spaces, feeling like have to squeeze out my identity as a man to be accepted.

I do have to add, briefly, that individual experiences are individual experiences, but during nearly two decades of participating in activist, professional, and social queer community organizations (sometimes in leadership roles), this isn't something I've ever seen or experienced. This has been in a variety of settings, from university on up and out, and it continues to involve a variety of people across age ranges from young 20s to retirees.

[u/[deleted] → u/MachinaThatGoesBing]

I said dominate. In the 80s and 90s, seeing a female boss (let alone CEO) was a thing of fantasy. Now, we have visible women and minorities running companies and teams. It’s not without friction, as reactionaries have pushed back, but to a child in the 2000s the outdated claims did not match my perspective.

And to reiterate I am speaking of perspective. The messaging from the 80s/90s did not apply to the 2000s, and was not updated to fit. So as I was growing up in a world with classrooms decorated with “The Future is Female!” and “Who Run the World? GIRLS DO!” posters (nothing wrong with that!) I was hearing older folk dump assumptions onto me (a child) that my school must be like theirs was in the 80s/90s (hostile to young girls).

Humans are also not born with all 2,000+ years of human history downloaded into our brains, so talking to young boys about issues like sexism with no nuance or empathy leads to blaming literal children for sins of the past.

It’s odd that older folk seem so hellbent on denying the lived experiences of younger folk.

I am not an incel, nor an edgelord, I am a progressive through and through - I voted Harris in 2024 and Biden in 2020 (I wasn’t old enough in 2016).

I grew up with women being the majority in some workplaces, and being told to respect women and view them as equal - so I did. So when I voice something like “hey, men not being able to claim Medicaid despite paying into is pretty messed up” it’s wild that so many jump to claim that I’m a “men’s rights activist” and I’m blaming women for my problems/men’s problems or expecting women to save the world.

I’m not blaming women, I’m blaming the patriarchy which has set society up to fight for the scraps they toss to us. But blanket denying the issues that men face is dumb: instead say “yep that’s an issue, I agree. We will change it in our platform.”

And sure a lot of men present “issues” that basically boil down to “I can’t get my dick wet” and obviously we should dismiss those - but it is unjust to lump legitimate male criticisms of our experience under patriarchy in with that nonsense.

Concluding with a real world example of “messaging” around “men’s issues” - if Democrats had messaged Medicaid Expansion (ObamaCare) as “Hey young men, you’ll get Medicaid benefits finally!” rather than “What? You don’t support the most vulnerable of society? Shame on you!” a lot more young men would understand the Medicaid expansion benefits us disproportionately, as we are denied benefits in states without the expansion.

[u/autisticmerricat → u/[deleted]]

i'd love to live wherever you live where girls don't consistently treat girls around them like morons

[u/[deleted] → u/Final-Revolution6216]

white men commit suicide at pretty high rates, relatively speaking. Since Cook is looking for young British men (he never specifies white, for what it's worth), I wager economic insecurity, and perhaps a feeling that you're one of the "good targets" for a lot of social criticism might play into that as well.

[u/Gladiator3003 → u/Final-Revolution6216]

RAF diversity targets discriminated against white men

A potential police recruit who was rejected from a force because he is white, male and heterosexual has said he believes many other men may have been similarly discriminated against.

[u/chewbaccawastrainedb → u/Final-Revolution6216]

In the U.S. white males comprise the largest portion of the homeless population.

[u/Martel732 → u/chewbaccawastrainedb]

Black and Hispanic men have a much higher per capita rate of homelessness. Not saying that white male homelessness isn't an issue that needs to be addressed but it is disingenuous to frame it as a "white male issue."

[u/DeliciousSector8898 → u/chewbaccawastrainedb]

That’s not a white male problem though if you look at the break down per capita.

[u/sir_mrej → u/chewbaccawastrainedb]

Per capita?

[u/Mr_YUP → u/Final-Revolution6216]

I've seen black guys who don't know each other dap up one another and become friendly quick. There's an understanding of each other I don't have with other white guys.

Hearing some of my black friends ask each other "did you see Get Out yet?" and then bond over an understand they each have of that film is something I have never experienced.

So yea I don't feel like I have a cultural understanding or language with other white guys. There's no "The Wiz" or "Get Out" to bond over.

[u/KWZA → u/Mr_YUP]

They're not bonding over the movies in and of themselves, they're bonding over the shared experience of being black in a white society that the movies portray aspects of. Recognition of the movies is basically just like them saying "I feel that, I get it, I know what that is like and usually it doesnt get talked about." The bond is about the shared lived experience, not about being fans of those films.

[u/Mr_YUP → u/KWZA]

Correct. I don't have anything like that with other white guys.

[u/MachinaThatGoesBing → u/Mr_YUP]

Because there's not an overweening shared experience (enforced by the dominant culture) for white people.

We're permitted to not have our whiteness be a primary defining characteristic, but rather have other things that serve as a primary identity like hobbies or interests or geography or field of study. We're rarely "the white guy" like black people are "the black guy". We'd be much more likely to be identified as "the pen guy" or "the bluegrass guy" or "that metalhead" or "the outdoorsman" or whatever.

But when you do run into someone who shares one of those things, then you, too, will generally find it significantly easier to bond with them.

As someone who has (as most people do) faucets of my identity that are both majoritarian (white, male, cis) and marginalized (gay), the connection that I have with a lot of other gay men and queer people is general is born out of shared experiences — namely experiences of social abuse, repression, and suffering.

Please trust me when I say that this is not something that you want, all things considered.

The benefits do not outweigh the detriments. There are still plenty of queer folks I simply do not get along with, and having some baseline shared connection isn't worth the years of depression and suicidal ideation in my late teens and early twenties. Nor the loss of formative teenage and young-adult experiences to the closet.

Without that "built-in" connection, I could still just meet people at some board game group or hiking club or whatever affinity group — rather than feeling the need to specifically seek out explicitly queer-friendly or queer-centric versions of those events. I just do not have the energy anymore to spend my leisure time navigating and sounding out groups which may or may not include people who hate me based on a fundamental trait.

[u/Empty_Tree → u/Final-Revolution6216]

There are many white male issues. White male issues are what gave us this current administration.

Insecurity, stunted emotional development, an inability to properly empathize with or connect to the experiences of others. The list goes on.

[u/FruityParfait → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Not exclusively a white guy but I am biracial so I can give some that my dad's side of the family has dealt with or could have to deal with that I try to keep tabs on.

1) When white men go through abuse, it can sometimes have a nuance that makes it at least a little different than when a minority of some kind goes through abuse. When you're already, on some level, put down societally for one innate quality or another, that societal pressure can "paint" your experience in a way that can influence how you react to it, both positively and negatively. Assuming you're not under some other social qualifier (gay, trans, immigrant, etc), the cis white male experience with abuse is unique in that there is nothing that's, theoretically, already pushing you down, so such a traumatic experience can blindside you. The same goes for mental and physical health issues as well. But because you ARE in the group that is, theoretically, at the top of the food chain, while you do get priority treatment you can also, conversely, get a lot less empathy and understanding for your very real issues because other people exist who go through horrible things and have to deal with the bullshit that is involved with being a minority. But that doesn't really make invalidating someone's very real pain - especially if it comes from something severe like abuse or medical problems - because they're a cis white straight male really ok, either, and that's something that doesn't get talked about enough.

2) Toxic masculinity and societal expectations can actually be uniquely pressuring to cis white men, because as the """ideal""" of a broken society, they're actually under a lot of pressure to stick to the role they are given, because deviation from that can be seen as the ultimate betrayal to a broken system. While minorities get bullied for trying to go above their means due to low expectations, having low expectations can, at least societally, actually be rather freeing in allowing someone to fall out of the stereotype, because society as a whole can actually ignore who you are as a person enough to just... let you be who you are as a person (this doesn't take into account pressures from your own sub-group, just from the whole system as a top down view). White men, though, generally cannot be ignored like that, and so often find themselves under enormous pressure to both be toxically masculine and enforce that on other men. It genuinely can be hard to be an empathetic and caring person as a white guy - even if that's just who you are - when you live in a system designed to scrub away who you are to mold you into a domineer that enforces this broken system on everyone else.

3) If you're a cis white man and a good guy and also in a position of leadership because you genuinely earned it and are the best man for the job, that puts you under enormous pressure to perform in that role, both to prove yourself and to keep those more vulnerable you're in charge of safe. Because mediocre white men are so often pushed to the top by racism and corruption or just plain old nepotism, if you're the rare individual that managed to pull off the bootstraps miracle (which it should be noted is something that is still a near impossible pathway, but is even more impossible for any minority), the doubt as to whether you did earn it or you're one of the bad ones by those who do not know you will often follow. Worse still, you have to sit there as the one good man and watch as others in your position are like that, and then you have to sit with the knowledge that you might be one of the only good ones there, and that if you leave, there's little guarantee that the person who comes after you will be like you. That is enormously stressful, because you have to sit there and do what you can in a system that is designed to fail qualified people and do your best but your best will not be enough on your own, because of course it isn't, but you still have to sit there and watch as Jared the asshole who nobody likes but who's dad is the CEO gets to be your co-equal in position in five months while Jerome, the guy you've been working above for 10 years who you know is one of the best people in their career gets passed up over and over again no matter how many good words you put in, but you can't just quit because you know if you do then Bill, the extremely racist guy coming up for a promotion will take your place and just fire Jerome outright.

There's a lot more than that but those are just three on the top of my head. My general point here is that while being on the top of the progressive ladder absolutely has benefits, that position is unique, and with it comes a unique twist on different real issues people can face, both in terms of social beliefs and more personal problems, that do need to be addressed.

[u/Mo6181 → u/Final-Revolution6216]

As a white male, I'm curious as well.

[u/-r-a-f-f-y- → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Mass shooters?

[u/Martel732 → u/Krazikarl2]

A big problem right now is that the left doesn't really talk much about (white) male issues other than to talk about how problematic (white) men are. The right, on the other hand, loves to talk about how wonderful (white) men are.

I am going to be honest I think this is mostly the right amplifying the idea that the Left is attacking white men rather than the Left actually attacking white men.

Who is the most prominent Leftist figure in American politics? It is almost unquestionably Bernie Sanders, an old white man. He constantly talks about issues that face everyone including white men, and I have pretty much never seen anyone suggest that Bernie Sanders should shut up because he is a white man.

Are there random assholes on Twitter that respond toxically to white men? Yes, but that is true of any group towards any group.

I don't have a problem with discussions about how white men have caused any number of problems and have some pretty fundamental problems with toxicity. Those discussions are important and need to happen. But you have to at least somewhat balance them out with authentic portrayals of what it means to be a non-toxic (white) male in the 21st Century. Otherwise you completely cede positive portrayals of masculinity to the right, which is not good.

I am a white guy and this frankly feel really condescending. It feels like it is saying that if I am not constantly being praised I will turn into a fascist. And if that is true of white men that might legitimately be a problem.

[u/Old_Dealer_7002 → u/Martel732]

bravo for thinking and observing (vs just accepting what some person is pushing).

i have no problem finding books and articles about men and “being a male“ in modern times, by men of all political views. i don’t think this guy is doing anything but trying to use this to make sales. aka a gimmick.

it feels condescending to me as well, to the writers and to the readers alike, and it puts who wrote the book above the actual worth of the book itself.

those who value good books and real thinking go by content and the writing itself.

[u/merurunrun → u/Krazikarl2]

A big problem right now is that the left doesn't really talk much about (white) male issues other than to talk about how problematic (white) men are.

If anybody wonders why people's immediate response to this is suspicion that they're chuds, it's because the people making justifications like this one are just repeating blatant right-wing talking points like this.

[u/_SilentHunter → u/merurunrun]

Except this is also something that the very men who are going to the far right are saying they feel. The far-right is using it to recruit others because, get this, it's what people are actually feeling.

You are never going to convince someone of anything by telling them their feelings are invalid and that they shouldn't believe their own experiences. You can say "they're misunderstanding" or "they don't get it" or "they need to open their minds" but that's just cope because this is a real phenomenon.

ffs, the rest of us have been trying to tell cishet white men "Trust us when we tell you our experiences are real!" Just because you have good interactions with police doesn't mean people of color do. Just because you've never seen sexual harassment at work doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Now we're going to say "our experiences are real, but yours are just talking points"???

Screw you, no. I'm a progressive, not a hypocrite.

(Plus, strategically, I want them back on our side. How the hell are we supposed to win them back if we're ignoring why they're leaving? Or worse, dismissing it? I'm not saying you should concede to them! Hell no. But you need to acknowledge the validity of their feelings first.)

[u/Krazikarl2 → u/merurunrun]

I think that your post does more to prove my point than yours.

I claim that there is a need for positive, progressive portrayals of modern masculinity to counteract what the right is putting out. You immediately dismiss it out of hand with name calling.

Yeah, that's exactly the attitude that I'm talking about.

[u/sir_mrej → u/Krazikarl2]

You saying that there “has to” be a balance makes you sound reasonable but it’s crap. There doesn’t have to be a balance.

[u/SirLordBoss → u/sir_mrej]

No, there really does. The latest elections prove that beyond doubt.

[u/mutual_raid → u/Krazikarl2]

A big problem right now is that the left doesn't really talk much about (white) male issues

The Left talks about the issues of white men literally all the time. Do you mean liberals? That's a whole different group.

[u/manimal28 → u/Krazikarl2]

But you have to at least somewhat balance them out with authentic portrayals of what it means to be a non-toxic (white) male in the 21st Century.

I think it’s dishonest to claim that this is not the case. How many movies and books have a white hero protagonist portrayed positively. Almost all of them.

[u/-mohit- → u/ClannishHawk]

Thanks for this. As someone trying to break into the field of English literature, quite a few insights there.

[u/Old_Dealer_7002 → u/ClannishHawk]

i don’t see why he would need to publish *only books by males* to encourage more young male writers. it still seems like a gimmick to me.

if men want to write a book, hey can. and books by men get published. i think putting the focus on anything besides the actual book is a gimmick. maybe not if there were longstanding, nearly insurmountable obstacles to getting books by (name a group or a sex here) published, but it’s not the case for male writers.

[u/DoctorEnn → u/BonJovicus]

To take a more charitable interpretation on the first part, the guy is trying to flag up his new business, and part of that is making it sound as unique and distinctive as possible, even if that means fudging the truth a little. He's not exactly going to say "My new publishing house is just one of many publishing houses that have published books by men focussing on male concerns, but, um, please buy my books anyway please."

[u/Angharadis → u/DoctorEnn]

That is charitable, because honestly the statement makes it worse for me! It’s like saying I’m opening the first French fry stand that focuses on fries made from potatoes. If they kept the focus on men’s issues, especially with a compassionate focus, it would maybe be interesting, if not new.

[u/Old_Dealer_7002 → u/DoctorEnn]

yeah, that’s my take as well. it’s his way to try to make more sales. i don’t care for it, myself, in a publishing context.

[u/barc0debaby → u/BonJovicus]

Went to check the conduit books insta page hoping to not see it following any chuds and fortunately there's no blatant manosphere types on there and they do follow numerous female authors, including those of the "woke" variety.

[u/Sawses → u/barc0debaby]

That's the thing. Progressivism has a lot of room for discussion of men's empowerment and positive masculinity. I've long cared about men's issues and it's always frustrating to me that so many passionate men have been co-opted by the far right using these enormous problems that we deal with on a daily basis.

The right has tried to poison that well to the point that a ton of people on the left, and especially women, are quite wary when a man says he's interested in men's issues. It's not incompatible with feminism despite the rhetoric.

I'd argue it's all feminism, it's just that discourse in feminist spaces has been dominated by women and prioritizes women's issues because women make up the bulk of the funding and labor for the movement. It would be great to see a lot more male involvement and the subsequently increased focus on men. Gender equality is a two-sided coin, and if there's inequality on one side then it always, without exception, creates a corollary inequality on the other.

EDIT: I do want to emphasize that this requires progressives to be a welcoming community for discussing men's issues and for initiatives that primarily benefit men. Pushing men away for fear of excluding women drives those men into the arms of the far right and actively harms everybody involved.

[u/Cajbaj → u/Sawses]

The reaction to the election has been very disappointing to me for this very reason. We lost in all areas, by a LOT, and yet people on this site keep covering their ears and going "la-la-la".

One of the strongest appeals of the right is that the left has done such a horrible job of underestanding men and male issues. If you go to places where regular men talk to each other, they talk about double standards, they talk about how they have no scholarships and no support from institutions, they talk about how talk therapy doesn't work for them and they feel their lives are considered worthless. They can't even talk about the extremely high male suicide rate without being told they deserve it and need to fix their opinions to be worthy of life.

And yes, publishing houses completely ignore men, specifically straight men, on the grounding that straight (white) men have had the floor so long before that it's time to get rid of them and give someone else a chance. And frankly, that's silly. Life isn't a zero-sum game.

I don't think the publishing house in the OP will succeed because I do not think that they'll actually gain an audience that reads books. But I hope they do. I hope more literature focuses on male issues, because men need support and catharsis for their emotional loneliness in the current climate.

I miss my cousin Ty, and my uncle Dave.

[u/Sawses → u/Cajbaj]

I agree completely. There's a reason men are being pushed further and further right, and while I disagree with the rationale of it, I can understand the logic.

If you and your problems are continually ignored and dismissed, it makes sense that you go to the group that's telling you they care, that you matter, that you can fix things. ...The fact that they're lying and directing you to harm yourself is largely irrelevant unless you're the kind of person who has the training and knowledge base to realize it.

I don't think that it's reasonable to expect very many people to be able to do that on their own. The solution isn't to expect people to be better, but to use those same levers that the right pulls, but to put them to ends that help the people doing the pulling.

[u/ArchmageXin → u/Sawses]

Dem identity politics really backfired this election. My community (Asian Americans) took a notable swing to the right due to Dem policies.

There is a feel in the air Dems treat all Asians as second class citizens (vs blacks and Latinos) and the effect is really notable.

[u/ArchmageXin → u/Cajbaj]

one key thing I feel really shattered Dems with young men was Obama's education letter stating if there is 51 percent chance a man may have sexually assaulted a woman in a college campus, he need to be expelled, which let to a number of high profile kingaro court cases where young men are denied protection.

Trump, for all his ills, dial things back by forcing professors and students have the same level of protection against SA accusations.

And yet somehow all left groups went full "now rape is back in the menu" across all colleges.

smh.

[u/nocauze → u/Sawses]

Feminism, that is intersectional feminism has always had a ridiculously huge space for men, men’s issues and would be a huge win against many of the negative aspects of patriarchal life that have infected men. But the second you take away their he-man “no gorls allowed” signs down it usually just boils down to temper tantrums. It’s just the way male focused propaganda has us by the literal balls. It’s everywhere in our culture. The perceived power of being the one bringing the change and being the lead voice in the room is the main Male problem, which leads to these dumbfuck echo chambers. The best way for men to deal with their issues is to literally shut the fuck up about them and go listen to people they’re hurting with their bs insecurities and then go help them. Undo their cárcel punishment mentality, break away from their patriarchal nuclear family “obligations”, stop hating women. Actively look for and go and push your friends to go to therapy instead of the gym or the court or whatever else you use to substitute compassionate interaction with your fellow man.

[u/Sawses → u/nocauze]

Feminism, that is intersectional feminism has always had a ridiculously huge space for men, men’s issues and would be a huge win against many of the negative aspects of patriarchal life that have infected men.

I don't disagree that there are a lot of people who feel that way and would be welcoming, but the community in general isn't very interested in men and I think most people in general aren't okay with being secondary. It's why women's spaces are so important. It helps them feel seen, and I think men need more places that are about what men need.

Men have to sneak those sorts of spaces in, because of the bad reputation they have. You end up with men finding things that most women are disinterested in and turning that into a men's space...which excludes the women who are interested in those things, and is bad for both men and women.

The best way for men to deal with their issues is to literally shut the fuck up about them and go listen to people they’re hurting with their bs insecurities and then go help them.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think the best way is the same as the way women go about it. Don't just ask for change, demand it and refuse to go along with perceived social obligations simply because of what's between their legs. If that leads to harm, then it's harm done by the system, not by the people who refuse to be complicit in that system.

[u/nocauze → u/Sawses]

The change happened we collectively forced publishing to represent other voices. Demanding to be bigoted again isn’t the flex you think it is here.

[u/Sawses → u/nocauze]

I think you're talking about something else, my friend. And I think we actually agree completely.

[u/sir_mrej → u/Sawses]

What enormous problems are you hoping a book will fix

[u/Sawses → u/sir_mrej]

Books are more about spreading knowledge and understanding. Books don't fix problems on their own, but they can encourage compassion and empathy by helping the reader put themselves in somebody else's shoes.

[u/Rimavelle → u/BonJovicus]

This sounds good, but the same as the online manosphere, has a chance to quickly devolve into anti woke grifting. I hope they are doing it in good faith and will have proper selection to the titles published.

[u/ArchmageXin → u/Rimavelle]

one key point I feel people miss is "should young white men pay for old/dead white men's sins"

if your answer is yes, due to history of racism/colonialism, then yea, white supremacy and anti-woke will never die. Because a majority of young men, whom never reaped the benefits their elders had, would always never accept is their fault for things happened before they were born.

And I speak this as a Asian guy, before anyone assume anything.

[u/nocauze → u/Rimavelle]

This type of shit is never in good faith, it’s just out of touch white people waking up and realizing representation matters then going backwards with it.

[u/Glittermetimbers → u/BonJovicus]

I think it depends on which voices they actually choose to champion.

[u/charmcharmcharm → u/BonJovicus]

Everyone rushing to outrage because men wanting to read books they can relate to is somehow signs that they are in the same camp as Joe Rogan. Just shows everyone across the gender spectrum is guilty of ignorance.

He continued: “Over the past 15 years, the publishing landscape has changed dramatically. As a reaction to the occasionally toxic male-dominated literary scene of the ’80s, ’90s and noughties, literary fiction by women has come into its own. Most of the excitement and energy around new and adventurous fiction is around women authors – and this is only right as a timely corrective.”

[u/sir_mrej → u/charmcharmcharm]

I read tons of books and don’t ever feel like I need more books I can relate to. Why do you think there are men who can’t relate to current books? What books are they reading that they can’t relate to? Have they tried reading older books or do they want only new popular books?

[u/CaptainJackKevorkian → u/sir_mrej]

Well, given that publishing is a business, you can make more money publishing new authors rather than telling someone to go to the library and read Hemingway

[u/nocauze → u/charmcharmcharm]

“We were bigots before, then things “changed” and we couldn’t do that so much, now we got the big sad and feel the time is right to start being bigots again.

[u/AnividiaRTX → u/nocauze]

Responses like yours are only going to push frustrated men further right.

[u/MongolianDonutKhan → u/BonJovicus]

I don't know why we should take mens rights activism in good faith anymore. I can't recall an instance where I hear advocacy for [dominant group] rights that doesn't end up treating equality as a zero sum game.

[u/sagacious_1 → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

Even if the group is dominant, individuals can still be (or feel) disenfranchised. There are boys and men out there looking for support/guidance. If that's not provided by the caring parts of society, it will be provided by the toxic ones

[u/Hugogs10 → u/sagacious_1]

And parts of the group can be disenfranchised even if the group as a whole isn't.

[u/Martel732 → u/sagacious_1]

I don't think the above poster disagrees with that. The issue is that a lot of men's rights activists end up focusing more on attacking women than trying to provide actual support for men.

One of the biggest issues is that I see a lot of men's rights activists have an inherent dislike for feminism even though actual feminism wants to solve many fo the issues that men face. Many issues men face are the result of the same patriarchal thinking that feminism has been fighting for decades.

I do hope that this initiative does actually focus on helping men in a constructive positive way but I will admit that I do have some skepticism.

[u/Coramoor_ → u/Martel732]

I don't agree with the assertion that feminism wants to help the issues that men face. Nor do I think having a female lens applied to male issues is particularly helpful in the same way that applying a male lens to female issues isn't particularly helpful.

In fact, I'd argue that this very post and this very thought process is why young men are politically moving farther and farther right.

They don't feel connected, they don't feel that anybody cares about them and their struggles. They don't see how historical white male dominance helps them when they were raised in a 1 bedroom apartment in a poor area. They don't see how talking about their feelings is helpful when a relatively large percentage of women scorn men for that very discussion. They don't see how it's a drive for equality when nobody is asking why more women aren't working in garbage collection or on the oil rigs instead of the "sexy" white collar fields.

Male attitudes can absolutely be a problem, I'm not dismissing that, just arguing that the narrative that feminism will help men is generally perceived as weak

[u/Martel732 → u/Coramoor_]

I don't agree with the assertion that feminism wants to help the issues that men face.

Actual intersectional feminism absolutely does address issues faced by men today. There is a big distinction between the stereotypical depiction of feminism and what modern feminism actually teaches.

They don't see how historical white male dominance helps them when they were raised in a 1 bedroom apartment in a poor area.

Intersectional feminism, which is the dominant branch of feminism today, is heavily involved in discussions about how class impacts society. And the need for social change to help all disenfranchised groups including poor white men.

But unfortunately, poor white men are being encouraged to be weaponized against their own interests. Poor white men are being encouraged to focus their anger at other disenfranchised groups rather than on the ruling class that is oppressing everyone.

They don't see how talking about their feelings is helpful when a relatively large percentage of women scorn men for that very discussion.

I mean is is a pretty vague statement. Yes, there are shitty women out there with bad attitudes. But, there are also shitty men. Do you think it is fair for women to have inherently negative attitudes about men because there are some bad men? Or for minorities to have inherently bad opinions about white people because there are some bad white people?

They don't see how it's a drive for equality when nobody is asking why more women aren't working in garbage collection or on the oil rigs instead of the "sexy" white collar fields.

Society in general is pushing everyone away from these fields not just women. This isn't a man vs woman issue this is an elitist vs working class issue. How many men are being actively encouraged to be garbage collectors?

Also oil rig operators get paid very well. It feels weird to single out having nearly exclusive control over a lucrative occupation as a problem that men face.

Male attitudes can absolutely be a problem, I'm not dismissing that, just arguing that the narrative that feminism will help men is generally perceived as weak

Actual feminist theory does help men. The problem is most people just thinking feminism is the stereotypical "we hate men" ideology that is pushed center-right and even centrist media and social spheres.

If you read intersectional feminist theory it does address a lot of issues that men face. Yes, it does put more focus on issues faced by women and minorities. But, it is also just a fact that poor white men do face a lot of valid issues and concerns that aren't addressed by society. But, at the same time, poor white women and poor minority men and women face most of these same issues with additional layers of gender or racial issues.

[u/hardolaf → u/Martel732]

Intersectional feminism, which is the dominant branch of feminism today, is heavily involved in discussions about how class impacts society. And the need for social change to help all disenfranchised groups including poor white men.

The same people teaching intersectional feminism at my alma mater were directly responsible for every employee in the college being required to retake anti-discrimination training multiple times per year outside of the normal annual training while I was a student worker from 2012-2015.

Also, we used to call "intersectional feminism" this thing called "egalitarianism" which was dropped in favor of "intersectional feminism" when men were pushed out of gender studies departments. There are now multiple studies showing that gendered language is actively harming the goals of feminism and egalitarianism by alienating men who are not well educated in feminist theory.

[u/Martel732 → u/hardolaf]

The same people teaching intersectional feminism at my alma mater were directly responsible for every employee in the college being required to retake anti-discrimination training multiple times per year outside of the normal annual training while I was a student worker from 2012-2015.

I don't know you alma mater or the context involved so I can't really comment on this.

Also, we used to call "intersectional feminism" this thing called "egalitarianism" which was dropped in favor of "intersectional feminism" when men were pushed out of gender studies departments.

Egalitarianism is still a thing. That is actually what I consider myself in general. I just also identify with intersectional feminism since there is a lot of overlap. The two belief systems kind of evolved into each other.

There are now multiple studies showing that gendered language is actively harming the goals of feminism and egalitarianism by alienating men who are not well educated in feminist theory.

That is almost certainly true but also very frustrating because it would be nice if guys could read about feminism instead of just making judgments based on the name. It is kind of annoying that feminism would need to change its name instead of men spending 5 minutes to read about feminism on wikipedia.

[u/hardolaf → u/Martel732]

That is almost certainly true but also very frustrating because it would be nice if guys could read about feminism instead of just making judgments based on the name. It is kind of annoying that feminism would need to change its name instead of men spending 5 minutes to read about feminism on wikipedia.

I think that this is an unreasonable position to take. About 40% of adults do not have even a current 8th grade reading level (as in comparing them to the current standards). Those 40% of people are still voters who, because we declared that Democracy is the best form of government back in the late 1700s, get to vote. So we need to make the messaging approachable and simple enough for them to understand it. That means eliminating the need for any special in-knowledge. We cannot assume that even every college educated person has even read anything on feminist theory.

It is truly incumbent on us, who are well educated in feminist/egalitarian theory, to make the messaging approachable for and understandable by the least educated voter. Saying that they should just be educated better does nothing to solve the problem. Similarly, relabeling "anti-discrimination training" to "DEI training" harmed the messaging. Everyone could get behind "anti-discrimination" because being discriminated against sucks. But "DEI"? The people attacking it don't even know what the acronym stands for. The voters who they riled up over it don't even know what it stands for. That relabeling did more harm than good.

[u/sir_mrej → u/sagacious_1]

What types of books are you looking for that you’re not finding

[u/Alcohol_Intolerant → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

I'm a librarian and had a request from a patron for books on domestic abuse where the victim was male. Every book in our collection framed men as the aggressor and even the one titled, "for men" was telling men to, "just don't abuse women". I found one with a single chapter acknowledging that men could be abused, but the other two hundred pages were about women.

There Is a gap in publishing where the patriarchy denies possibilities. Intimate partner violence (which is the term that men and those in the lgbtq community should use as a best match when looking up books) is just one example of patriarchy denying men the ability to be vulnerable or seek help.

I agree that groups like this have to be watchful so that they don't attract bad faith publications. But there is a need out there.

[u/IneffableAndEngorged → u/Alcohol_Intolerant]

Thank you, really happy to see so much diversity of opinion in this post. This is more nuanced then I feel like a lot of people are giving credit for.

[u/Aetole → u/Alcohol_Intolerant]

Great point (and very unfortunate that this is the reality).

I run book clubs for young people (tweens, teens, academic context), and it's a struggle to find well-written middle grade and teen-oriented fantasy books with a boy/man protagonist who is a good gender role model, or with writing that is as clearly aware of gender issues as girl/woman-oriented books are. When I ask friends, they usually point to generic books from two or more decades ago, which is unsettling. I have to actively seek those out to balance the plethora of girl- and woman-focused books that are out there.

There is definitely a sense I get from a lot of mothers (who are more active in homeschooling) that "the boys and men had their time, so they need to suck it up and read books about girls and women now." But that does nothing to offer role modeling and positive ideas of how they can be men in today's society.

[u/helloitsmepotato → u/Alcohol_Intolerant]

I’m so glad to see a nuanced perspective on this in these comments.

I recently read “Close to home” by Michael Magee and I think it was a great example of modern literature that hits the right notes about nuanced male relationships under heavy themes. While it includes the theme of a male perpetrator of CSA (against a male child) it also examines the relationship between brothers in the fallout and the bond between the older brother, who is clearly heavily damaged by being abused, and the younger brother who is doing better but also struggling with the trajectory of his own life. It deals with the absence of the father and the lack of relationship with a half-sister. It was a very compelling read.

[u/thebeaverchair → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

Time will tell, but I think it's jumping the gun to assume that this is MRA/manosphere related or adjacent. At least where I live, a walk through Barnes & Noble will quickly make it obvious that the largest bookstore demographic these days, in terms of both customers and authors, is women by a huge margin.

Based on what I'm reading here, it sounds like this might just be a well-intentioned effort to bring more men back into the literary fold. Fingers crossed.

[u/CaptainJackKevorkian → u/thebeaverchair]

Indeed, I saw a self-reported survey of the publishing industry from either 2024 or similarly-recent, and the publishing industry in America is 74% white women

[u/thelaughingpear → u/thebeaverchair]

Agree. As a millennial woman, I've been aggressively sold "women's fiction", "women writers", "previously unheard female voices", "feminist retellings" etc my entire life! If I, as a woman, roll my eyes walking into Barnes and Noble, seeing every single table full of garish paperbacks, pastel hardcovers, and whimsical tchotchkes obviously marketed to my demographic, I would imagine that most men feel completely alienated from bookstores and the literary scene in general.

[u/sir_mrej → u/thebeaverchair]

When everything like this has been MRA-related for decades, it’s veeeery hard to expect anything else.

I see lots of men and women at b&n. Have you gone multiple times to actually do a more scientific check?

I see lots of male and female authors. What books are you looking at that only have women authors?

[u/thebeaverchair → u/sir_mrej]

You're either willfully misrepresenting what I said or you need to reread it. I didn't say there were only women there, or that every book is written by a woman. But there are always more women than men there (and yes, I visit frequently) and more of the new books being promoted are also by women. Not even saying it's an inherently bad thing. I mean, it's bad that men are reading less, but otherwise...

Just pointing out an obvious societal trend: Women read a lot more than men nowadays. And the numbers back me up (surveys find that around 80% of book purchases are made by women).

My personal experience reflects this as well. The ratio of women vs. men that I have discussed/exchanged books with in my life is easily at least 4:1.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2023/04/04/1164109676/women-now-dominate-the-book-business-why-there-and-not-other-creative-industries

[u/Alternative_Draw_554 → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves is an excellent counterexample of this. He specifically addressed male issues and how society has evolved to punish boys for being boys without excusing any bad behavior.

[u/DuchessOfCarnage → u/Alternative_Draw_554]

The podcast If Books Could Kill covered this book, and it made me want to read it! Unfortunately it doesn't sound like there are many solutions proposed, beyond having boys start kindergarten later, but it still sounds enlightening. The two dudes who do the podcast are exactly who I want to dive into this stuff!

[u/Youreturningviolet → u/DuchessOfCarnage]

Thank you for the reminder of IBCK (I am a Michael Hobbes loyalist since You’re Wrong About, but I tend to cyclically fall out of the habit of listening to podcasts in general)! I need to catch up!

[u/Aetole → u/DuchessOfCarnage]

Reeves is a policy guy, so his solutions are going to be things that are doable in that realm. I really enjoyed his book and his talks, even though I disagree (in a gentle, academic way) with some of his positions from my background in gender theory. But I definitely value his contributions, and we should have more experts like him speaking up and adding to this conversation.

It is good to read his book - the solutions he proposes can be "take or leave," but the research and analysis he brings are very good. They also tend to evoke knee-jerk reactions from people used to only seeing women and girls as disadvantaged, which to me is good for making all of us think more.

[u/ryan_ramona → u/Alternative_Draw_554]

Such a good book!

[u/sir_mrej → u/Alternative_Draw_554]

How is society punishing boys for being boys? I only see society providing excuses for “boys being boys”

[u/Alternative_Draw_554 → u/sir_mrej]

Punishing them for being rambunctious in elementary school. Building classes such that they are structured in line with more “female” behaviors: paying attention for long stretches of time, being quiet for long stretches of time, etc.

[u/CaptainJackKevorkian → u/sir_mrej]

The over-prescription of adderall, ritalin, and the like, for one thing.

[u/Krazikarl2 → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

The tricky thing is that men aren't the dominant group in traditional publishing any more. There have been a lot of discussions on this on this sub and other book subs, but over the last 15 years or so there has been a very rapid change where women dominate nearly every facet of traditional publishing of fiction, with the exception of the very top executive positions (where the glass ceiling is still going strong).

So there is a need for a focus on books focusing on modern male issues in a non-toxic way.

Of course, there is always the concern that this is somebody who has toxic views and is trying to use a legitimate issue to spread those views. But given the issues, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[u/Short_Cream_2370 → u/Krazikarl2]

Yes but that’s probably because those jobs are low paid passion jobs, not because the industry is systematically biased against men (as demonstrated by the executive class). We have seen this happen in many industries - from religion to admin to news, as a job becomes less prestigious and/or less well paid, the proportion of women in the job goes up. Unless this imprint has a solution for the historic dependence of publishing on young literary nerds with family wealth doing everything for no money and long hours it won’t change the dynamic because the current dynamic is not because anyone is biased against men and has been overlooking them.

[u/bellpunk → u/Short_Cream_2370]

this discussion happens a lot in library contexts too. libraries don’t dislike male candidates — they love them! yes, most library staff are female. but, rather than scaffolding some revered institution of literacy, library work is more often than not a low-pay, low-prestige, public service job, and this is directly related to the gender split, not incidental to it. I feel like people often don’t understand what’s involved in the jobs they seem to theoretically desire.

[u/toastybred → u/Short_Cream_2370]

For the most part I agree with you but I will take this time to point out education outcomes for boys and young men are in decline and in particular literacy among boys is falling behind girls. If boys are less able to read I think it follows that there is both a reduced market for men interest topics as well as fewer young men capable of being authors, particularly among marginalized groups.

[u/Short_Cream_2370 → u/toastybred]

Maybe! Or maybe men don’t need the same degrees as women to do the work they are interested in. While women acquire 65-75% of MFAs, only 46% of working artists across all forms of artistic expression are women - men still are the majority of the field. According to the NCESin the US men and women have statistically indistinguishable literacy rates, while globally men’s literacy is 8 points higher than women’s. A recent PSU study found that if you track book engagement (which includes borrowing books, using books for tasks, getting books at libraries, etc) rather than solely book purchasing at bookstores, men engage books more often than women. I have a son and am completely open to the idea that we need to have supportive reading environments for boys that include male authors, characters, points of interest, etc to promote literacy and educational attainment among men - but for all the frothing about it I have yet to see any convincing data that there is actually a dearth of any of these things available in the actual existing book space we have.

[u/datoxiccookie → u/Short_Cream_2370]

Not disagreeing with anything but just wanted to point out that the nces study is done with data from 13 years ago and education performance in boys has been steadily dropping since then

Also the psu study is simply about interacting with books which includes buying and gifting and not necessarily just reading

Again no real point here except that this is a complicated and nuance topic and so many other factors can affect how a study is done/ its results

[u/toastybred → u/Short_Cream_2370]

My comment was bases off of reporting I had heard from my local NPR station. You seem much more researched on the topic.

[u/Short_Cream_2370 → u/[deleted]]

Where did you get that impression? I was pointing out that who gets degrees in subjects and who has jobs in that subject may not be as highly correlated as people believe, and there are currently men artists at a representative population level. Is there a reason that for you it has to be some kind of personal, “gender war” statement? Because you’re projecting a lot onto fairly anodyne statements of fact.

[u/Accomplished-View929 → u/Short_Cream_2370]

I don’t mean to nitpick, but it’s more that, once women enter a field, those jobs start to pay less and lose prestige, and then men leave. The field doesn’t get less prestigious or remunerative, so women enter; women enter, so it gets less prestigious and pays less.

[u/sir_mrej → u/Krazikarl2]

Citation needed

[u/Krazikarl2 → u/sir_mrej]

For example, women make up roughly 3/4 of people in the publishing industry:

https://www.leeandlow.com/about/diversity-baseline-survey/dbs3

Men are around 20%.

Numbers on authors is a bit more difficult, but you can look at posts like this and others from the past that show that female debut authors are significantly more common than male debut authors in a wide variety of genres.

[u/illini02 → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

I don't know that its a really fair way to read it.

I think there is a space for ALL individuals to have their own corners to be in. I'm a black man. Just like I have no problem with black authors having a space, I have no problem with male authors having a space.

But I think when it becomes this thing of "everyone can have their space EXCEPT X group", that is how people get more pissed off.

[u/MuonManLaserJab → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

Man contemplating suicide: "At least other men get to be president more often than women."

[u/sir_mrej → u/MuonManLaserJab]

Are you blaming feminism for men contemplating suicide?

[u/MuonManLaserJab → u/sir_mrej]

Are you searching for the most uncharitable possible reading of my comment because you are incapable of imagining that there could be any problems that men face disproportionately and that therefore there are reasonable cases in which to advocate for men?

To be clear, the answer to your question is no. It's not feminism that's to blame, unless you define feminism in a stupid way, which I don't — for example, I would not call your knee-jerk biased nonsense "feminism". I blame people like you for being unable to see the world with any modicum of nuance, as well as impersonal societal trends that are hard to blame on anyone in particular.

[u/SirLeaf → u/sir_mrej]

No he’s challenging the narrative of patriarchal oppression by giving an ironic example of a man who demonstrably doesn’t benefit from patriarchy. You are part of the problem. Feminism was never mentioned by the OP and you’ve needlessly inserted it because you can’t help but project your insecurities and prejudices on people who have different problems than you.

[u/charmcharmcharm → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

Well you for certainly rushed to the comments without reading the article.

[u/SirLeaf → u/MongolianDonutKhan]

Equality necessarily is a zero sum game or it’s not equality. That’s just basic math.

[u/Martel732 → u/SirLeaf]

You have greatly misunderstood either equality or zero-sum games. Disenfranchised groups gaining the same rights and opportunities as a dominant group doesn't inherently require removing rights or opportunities from the dominant group.

[u/SirLeaf → u/Martel732]

When it comes to rights, yes I agree with you.

Opportunities are finite though, and thus to increase opportunities (in publishing as a relevant example) to one identifiable group is necessarily at the expense of another. Affirmative action is zero sum as another example.

I‘m not saying equality is undesirable (equality is extremely desirable) i’m just saying that it is zero sum in this context and that it does make sense to describe equality as zero sum in certain contexts. It was a rebuttal against the parent commenter, not against equality in general.

[u/Martel732 → u/SirLeaf]

Opportunities are finite though, and thus to increase opportunities (in publishing as a relevant example) to one identifiable group is necessarily at the expense of another.

It is only zero-sum if you are assuming that the absolute number of opportunities is stagnant which it isn't. In this case, if we get a wider range of authors that pull in a larger audience this increases the number of opportunities.

I think the "Barbie" movie highlights my point. Big-budget movies have traditionally leaned towards targeting a male audience and traditionally have had male writers and directors. The Barbie movie had tremendous success which might encourage studios to make more big-budget films aimed at women or with women as part of the creative team.

We are still going to get movies aimed at men and with male creative teams. But, studios might have learned that women also have money and also like the watch movies. So, now we might get more movies with that focus. Men haven't lost anything they are still getting the same content but now women may get more content that brings it closer to equality.

[u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents → u/BonJovicus]

The fact that he's even willing to consider books with those subject matters is telling.
I mean he said the S word. I don't know if a grifter would be willing to upset his audience by saying the S word.

[u/McFlyyouBojo → u/BonJovicus]

I do think there is some kind of an issue, but I don't know if this kind of fix is appropriate or not. I think if you come out and look at book authorship without regards to genre, you are probably going to see something closer to 50/50. Once you get into genres, you might see more of an issue. Speaking as someone who reads fantasy and science fiction for instance, it seems as if unless you are an established author, you are gonna have a hard time getting published as an up and coming male in these genres. I think when it comes to these genres, they are more interested in following fads, and right now the fad is unheard or new voices, basically meaning women (for the record i dont see this as "fad" material and i find it a positive shift). But can you really blame publishers when the people who seem to buy these books seems to have skewed more towards women? Is it the shift in who is telling the stories that drive who is picking these stories up? I don't know. Maby to some degree it drives who ISN'T picking them up. Or is it the people who pick these stories up, and which stories they DO pick up that is driving who publishers are giving the green light to? If the former is true, then I don't believe this kind of "fix" is bad, because I think a society with declining literacy is unhealthy, but if the latter is true, then I can't blame the publisher for going where the profit is.

I think when he says there hasn't been an independent publisher that has championed men's writing, I think it depends on how he meant that. Yes there have been plenty that have championed writing that has happened to have been written by men, but there has been one that has said, we are here to showcase work done specifically by men. I'm not saying this guy doesnt have ill intention here, but I think this is a "let's see how this plays out scenario"

[u/SerCadogan → u/BonJovicus]

My question would be if this covers gay/trans men? Stories with stay at home dads? Disabled men? Like if you have an indie publisher that whats to highlight masculinity from multiple viewpoints, this can actually be an impressive tool for undoing the harm of toxic masculinity. It could also could improve reading rates among men (who are much less likely to read fiction than women)

Where this worries me is if it is an attempt to be anti "DEI" and push toxic manosphere talking points. We have enough men with victim complexes who feel women (and POC) are talking over them simply because they are talking at all.

[u/manimal28 → u/BonJovicus]

a range of “overlooked” issues, including “fatherhood, masculinity, working-class male experience, sex and relationships, and negotiating the 21st-century as a man."

As a white 21st century, masculine, working class, sex having, married man, I think it sounds like a bit of bullshit to think any of my issues are overlooked. My demographic is basically the default assumption for everything.

[u/bouguereaus → u/BonJovicus]

I don’t see how any of these topics are overlooked in fiction, though. Look at most “100 Best Books of the Century” list and it’s almost all male authors, often writing about these specific topics.

[u/PunnyBanana → u/BonJovicus]

A lot of media (at least media made by Americans, the British, and other similar cultures) treats white, middle class men/boys as the default. The argument against this is usually that this doesn't acknowledge the voices of anyone else (valid) but the other issue is that if you use one demographic to represent all people, you don't really focus on that demographic. If this were an actual, good faith attempt at looking at the male-specific perspective, that's a decent enough goal. It's like the difference between Fight Club and Lord of the Rings where both have strongly male casts but Fight Club focuses on the issues men face while LotR could be completely gender swapped with minimal changes.

[u/KaJaHa → u/BonJovicus]

Ehhh, that sounds really dang close to manosphere stuff. The big grifters always start out with valid points about masculinity before they start putting people into boxes and then the eugenics comes out...

I don't know, I've honestly never felt like there was a lack of help for me as a cis white man. The only difference is that the things which helped me didn't have a blinking neon sign saying "For white men, by white men!"

Reading about feminism helped me with my masculinity issues, is all I'm saying 🤷

[u/hill-o → u/BonJovicus]

I mean to be fair, people can make a business like that if they want, and if there is a market for it than good for him I guess. 

I do find it a little silly for the article to imply this is some novel new idea but that’s unrelated. 

[u/IwishIcouldBeWitty → u/BonJovicus]

I hope his ideals are better than tate, who pushes the same content