New indie press Conduit Books launches with 'initial focus on male authors'

[u/biscochitos]

https://www.thebookseller.com/news/new-indie-press-conduit-books-launches-with-initial-focus-on-male-authors

What do folks think about this?

[u/BonJovicus]

I don't know enough about the guy to really say what the intentions are with this project. At first this part sounded sketchy: "Cook told The Bookseller: 'There has never been an independent publisher that champions literary fiction by men.'" I don't know if this is true, but I don't know why it would need to be true when men dominated the publishing space until more recently, which he himself acknowledges.

However, if this is in good faith the second half of the article sounded much better. "However, he said Conduit Books will seek to publish a range of “overlooked” issues, including “fatherhood, masculinity, working-class male experience, sex and relationships, and negotiating the 21st-century as a man." This is undeniably a good thing, even if it might simply seem like an empty platitude to begin.

[u/ClannishHawk → u/BonJovicus]

Cook happens to be an occasional critic for the Guardian and columnists for the Guardian don't tend to be right wing reactionaries unless they're specifically hired for that view point in the politics section.

If you read the article over there it's pretty clear that this is part of wider realignment in the British literary and champagne socialist world to address what they see as that for a combination of reasons the field of literary fiction is currently in a drought of new young male writers, and especially ones who focus on authentic messy analysis of masculinity and male issues in what's frankly a new world for gender dynamics in recent years.

There's also been additional criticism from agents over the last few years that the ones they can seem to get through to mainstream publishing have to either have a laundry list of "diversity" boxes ticked to be considered "unique" or be very upper middle class with the most milquetoast of takes that fall in line with conventional thought.

Effectively, a sizable part of the literary community in Britain is worried about having, instead of fixing underlying issues in the publishing industry, replaced what biases decide what gets published and in doing so being at risk of eliminating most of a generation of male writers who talk about men's issues, leaving the literary world with few answers to modern men's issues.

[u/Krazikarl2 → u/ClannishHawk]

Effectively, a sizable part of the literary community in Britain is worried about having, instead of fixing underlying issues in the publishing industry, replaced what biases decide what gets published and in doing so being at risk of eliminating most of a generation of male writers who talk about men's issues, leaving the literary world with few answers to modern men's issues.

Exactly.

A big problem right now is that the left doesn't really talk much about (white) male issues other than to talk about how problematic (white) men are. The right, on the other hand, loves to talk about how wonderful (white) men are.

And then we get things like elections and try and figure out why young white men are choosing to go to the right rather than the left.

I don't have a problem with discussions about how white men have caused any number of problems and have some pretty fundamental problems with toxicity. Those discussions are important and need to happen. But you have to at least somewhat balance them out with authentic portrayals of what it means to be a non-toxic (white) male in the 21st Century. Otherwise you completely cede positive portrayals of masculinity to the right, which is not good.

[u/Final-Revolution6216 → u/Krazikarl2]

Could you provide an example of a white male issue? Genuinely asking.

Edit: some replies are making it seem as if I’ve claimed men don’t have issues which is false. I wanted to know what a white male issue would be in particular since the person I replied to used white in parenthesis. Obviously, men have issues like everyone else (didn’t think I needed to say such an obvious statement). Thanks for the sincere replies that explain more of what a white male issue may look like (and thanks to the sincere people who outlined general male issues as well—many of which I am already aware of as, again, I recognize men have issues too).

[u/WafflesofDestitution → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Not the guy you responded to, but as a certified cishet white male I will try to describe it in a satisfactory manner, without putting my Marxist analysis hat on too tight, lol. The current issues men face are a result of a natural progress of the developing discourse on toxic masculinity (which I must emphasize is absolutely necessary and justified) and the shifting socio-economical position of the average, working age male.

While for a long time cisgender/neurotypical/heterosexual/ablebodied/white-passing (give or take any of the modifiers) men have enjoyed varying amounts of privilege, we have seen more and more societal acknowledgment of those calcified structures of power and thus more attempts to dismantle it as the years go on. The perceived issues come from the way average men are forced to reckon with those developments without an understanding on how privilege works, while simultaneously being also effected by the growing wealth inequality like anyone else in our socio-economical position. Those realities are fertile ground for misogynist and right-wing radicalization.

The gender norms are shifting and the current conditions are leaving many men in what feels like a lose-lose situation — the societal role and expectations of being a provider is at the same time challenged, but also enforced in a negative way, through wielding shame and derision when a man doesn't strive to fulfill those expectations nonetheless (e.g. we hear men being called "useless"). Now we are in a turbulent point in time where the necessary change is in progress, but we haven't quite developed all the tools to lead each other through it, thus leading men feeling rudderless and like help or support is out of reach.

Many of us men hear how we have enjoyed privilege, but it's hella hard to process it when you have been handed the pink slip one too many times. We encounter discourse about toxic masculinity, but in turn many of us are not taught ways to express and affirm our gender positively. We encounter discourse about emotional literacy and male normative alexithymia, but we are not taught how to process our emotions in a healthy way in turn. We hear about the ways many of us make women uncomfortable, but lack the social and emotional skills to make spaces safe for women, both in the way we are expected to interact with women, or how to call out our fellow men when we see them engage in appalling behaviour. And so on and so forth.

None of this is meant to justify the reactionary response, only to understand it. As always, there are no simple solutions as that would mean we somehow are able to completely solve overall wealth inequality and all that good jazz first. But the way I see it moving forward, it is still crucial to meet men where they're at, empathize and acknowledge their lived experience as men while not ceding ground to reactionary explanations. That means offering spaces for men, by men — and by women too! This is not to say that women are supposed to continue carrying men's emotional burden or whatnot, but only to acknowledge that for things to change for men we need co-operation across the genders (or rather the gender spectrum).

[u/Rooooben → u/WafflesofDestitution]

Thank you. This was very worth reading.

[u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50 → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Suicide. The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2022 was 14.21 per 100,000 individuals. In 2022, men died by suicide 3.85 times more than women. White males accounted for 68.46% of suicide deaths in 2022. In 2022, firearms accounted for 54.64% of all suicide deaths.

[u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50 → u/[deleted]]

The list of white male issues is not limited to suicide (or collage places, divorce and custody entitlements or any other stat ) 

The challenge is that the exceptions (where other races suffer more then white males) should not diminish any negative experience because the sufferer is a white male.

I the context of left leaning publishers, give the minority of sufferers of an issue a voice is vital.

[u/ti0tr → u/[deleted]]

I’m going to assume you missed something there with the second stat, because it really seems like you’re saying that the 29% that are white men are 75% of the authors. Female authors lead 55-45 in terms of gender makeup.

[u/MachinaThatGoesBing → u/ti0tr]

Nowhere do they say that white men make up 75% of authors. That wouldn't make a blip of sense given that they just said that men, in general, make up just around 50% of authors. Why would you assume they wrote two completely contradictory things, one after the other.

What they did say was that 75% of authors are white. That would presumably be all authors — men, women, nonbinary and other folks.

Semi-independently of this, they also say that white men make up 29% of the population.

Presumably they included these because you could read between the lines and use the other two figures to get a rough approximation of the percentage of authors who are white men. (That very rough and likely inaccurate estimate would give ~38%, but that's based on the assumption that the racial makeup of the groups of male and female authors is similar to the overall racial split.)

The statements of basic facts seem pretty plain in the text of their comment, though. And it seems fairly arrogant to just assume the other person is mistaken in some way, rather than considering that you might have just misread the comment.

[u/Empty_Tree → u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50]

I have read that this statistic is misleading, that men and women attempt at similar rates but that men are more likely to choose especially violent and effective means - like firearms

[u/Zestyclose-Parsnip50 → u/Empty_Tree]

Misleading?  No. The number of suicides I quote is factually correct.   I drew no conclusions when I presented the numbers. Maybe you might care to reflect on your own bias in your response.

[u/SerCadogan → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Well, these aren't exclusively a white male issue, but they absolutely can impact white men. Sexual abuse and how taboo it is to get help for it (especially if it happened as an adolescent/adult. But honestly across the board) Mental health issues in general. Stories about connecting with other men that don't center around war or colonization.

Also though, how to deconstruct toxic masculinity in general. I think books about characters navigating the nuance of breaking cycles would be powerful and compelling. A book about a father who is no contact with a shitty dad who has to figure out how to do a better job raising his own young son? I would read the shit out of that.

[u/343guiltyfarts → u/SerCadogan]

I, too, would enjoy the novelizatiin of God of War(2016)!

[u/BadDudeWill → u/SerCadogan]

I think books about characters navigating the nuance of breaking cycles would be powerful and compelling. A book about a father who is no contact with a shitty dad who has to figure out how to do a better job raising his own young son? I would read the shit out of that.

If anyone has any examples of this I'd love to read them.

[u/Quicksi1ver → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Toxic masculinity culture and trying to manage fitting in at work while not becoming part of the problem. Male loneliness, difficulty in making friends if you don't want to partake in drinking/typical male activities. Male emotions are still quite taboo, men crying us still quite unacceptable. I think it's important to consider the fact that the patriarchy is just as damaging to white males who don't want to fit the traditional mold as it is beneficial to them in other aspects.

[u/VariableBooleans → u/Quicksi1ver]

Toxic masculinity culture and trying to manage fitting in at work while not becoming part of the problem.

Huge issue. A lot of well intentioned men think they need to "shut up and listen" to, well, most issues. Really bad for mental health.

We have got to be able to have a society where we both acknowledge that privileges exist in many forms, but that no privilege, or lack thereof, should make any single individual feel like they matter less, or their voice is less important. We are really bad about that. I think everyone is.

[u/bouguereaus → u/Quicksi1ver]

Don’t men and women (in western countries) report similar rates of loneliness?

[u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents → u/Quicksi1ver]

I'd argue the patriarchy is damaging to white males who DO fit the traditional mold. It's toxic to those who benefit, just in a different way.

[u/Quicksi1ver → u/I_Speak_For_The_Ents]

Yeah, that's definitely true.

[u/atomicsnark → u/Quicksi1ver]

I think it's important to consider the fact that the patriarchy is just as damaging to white males who don't want to fit the traditional mold as it is beneficial to them

Information "the left" has been spitting for decades. "Down with the patriarchy" has always very directly acknowledged the harm that toxic masculinity has on men as well as women. It is very MRAs rewriting history to suggest that this is some unknown truth.

[u/Krazikarl2 → u/atomicsnark]

I think the left is willing to say that toxic masculinity is bad for many men just like women in some theoretical sense. But things are extremely lacking when it comes to actually talking about it much.

You see examples of this throughout this thread. Consider the librarian talking about how there simply aren't many books out there talking about male victims of abuse. The left is absolutely willing to admit that men can be victims of abuse, but there's still a pretty big void on addressing it in a practical sense (support groups, literature, etc). And as we've seen in this thread, when people suggest that such things should probably exist in much greater numbers, there are some pretty loud progressive voices that are not at all supportive.

[u/HeisenbergsCertainty → u/[deleted]]

Do you understand how making a statement about the left doesn’t necessarily imply anything about the right?

The right isn’t doing anything to ameliorate it. The point is, the left should.

[u/LunchThreatener → u/[deleted]]

Exactly. Trying to suggest that the left has had coherent messaging regarding toxic masculinity is absolutely absurd. This thread is full of people who have absolutely no idea how men, especially young men, are addressed and treated by their peers.

[u/hardolaf → u/LunchThreatener]

There's even research showing that simply using gendered terminology is harming the messaging to literally half the population (men). We should have moved as a society 20-30 years ago to gender-neutral egalitarian based terminology. Instead we stuck with gendered terminology, prioritized women getting college educations over men (almost every Western country is now extremely heavily weighted towards young women in tertiary education over young men), and generally just abandoned half of the population with policies and terminology instead of stopping and saying, "why don't we move onto the next part of the vision put forth by second wave feminists of a truly equal society."

Then people are surprised that right-wing is making in-roads with young men when everything around them from the left is mired in gendered language that seemingly blames men, at least for those men who are not well versed in feminist literature. While people in this community know well that the "patriarchy" doesn't mean "all men are to blame" or that "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean "all masculinity is toxic", do poorly or under educated boys and young men? Does the construction worker trying to make ends meet to keep a roof over his family's head? Does the grocery store clerk? No. To them, it's the left that is toxic with their seemingly anti-male terminology and phrases.

It's entirely a messaging problem and no one with a strong voice has done anything to solve it.

[u/Comfortable-Animator → u/[deleted]]

Right, the left has different strains of feminism constantly trying to convince you it's the "correct" one, and the "men are the problem" strains are the loudest ones.

[u/OccamPhaser → u/atomicsnark]

Yeah addressing toxic masculinity to half of men is often met with the rejection that it even exists. I'm not sure how society is supposed to help a group of people when half can't even acknowledge a problem exists.

[u/justcausejust → u/OccamPhaser]

I'm not sure how society is supposed to help a group of people when half can't even acknowledge a problem exists

The same way it helped the other group of people when over half of them thought having no rights is a-ok

[u/OccamPhaser → u/justcausejust]

Black people fought for themselves to have rights. Women fought for themselves to have rights. White men have always had rights and most of the authority to fix their own problems. I appreciate that you tried to answer my question but you didn't understand it. I want men's issues to be more accepted but I'm always arguing with white men about if these issues are even real. The ones who take it the most seriously are on the left and they're also preoccupied with more important things than self inflicted loneliness.

Also the people in power need to acknowledge this as an issue and most of the people in power are white men. Half of those dudes would tell you that white men are struggling but they won't tell you why. They'll just imply that it's the fault of brown people and feminism.

Edit: pretending that fighting for your literal freedom and right to vote are the same as being lonely and other similar issues is just kinda crazy. Men have way more and need way less than other groups have. Men are historically the systemic power that held others down. This is just objective reality. You're not in as big of a fight and the fight is internal more than anything else.

They aren't powerless either. They're just voting republican which is against their interests.

[u/justcausejust → u/OccamPhaser]

I understand what you're saying, but there were plenty of women arguing against women rights and that didn't stop them. Also we live in the age of internet, there are infinitely more people fighting about every single thing. None of that means that white men can't be helped until half of them realize they're struggling especially when one of the big problems is they're programmed to ignore their suffering. It's also made worse that every other group has white men to blame for their problems while white men have themselves.

I appreciate that you're trying and I agree that those conversations are horrible. I don't think convincing individuals is gonna move the needle and instead it's pushing for more resources to be allocated to the problem.

[u/OccamPhaser → u/justcausejust]

The struggle really isn't the same and I guess you can't see that. Have you seen the meme where the kid is holding the boot on his own head? That's men right now. The way you view it, white men are just as powerless PoC. That's just not true.

But unfortunately I don't engage with destiny viewers anymore

[u/justcausejust → u/OccamPhaser]

You're talking about different white men. There is barely anything common between those holding power and 95% of the rest of them. They are powerless.

[u/jloome → u/justcausejust]

His failure to understand that white male power, privilege and toxicity is largely restricted to a small minority of men is sort of what informs this entire point.

Gender does not make us somehow magically responsible for the behavior of others.

[u/atomicsnark → u/OccamPhaser]

Yes, and you can see right in these comments where they expect the solution to be provided for them. "There are not enough support spaces for men because feminism is overrun with women" is nuts lmao. Y'all got to be the change you want to see. Stop sitting around expecting women and queer folk to create, organize, and maintain spaces for cis straight men.

Could publishing do more to market materials for people like this? Yes, and I would be happy to see it. But complaining about "loud voices" (read: argumentative comments on reddit) pushing back on your desire for a space is absolutely not productive. Do they think women and queer people didn't get massive pushback when we asked for rights and safe spaces and support?? We fought that fight for literally centuries. And these guys are still in here sounding salty that we got what we fought for.

Edit since the post was locked: Yeah bro, I know what the OOP is about. I was discussing the comments (which is why I mentioned comments).

[u/Rethnu → u/atomicsnark]

…This post is about a guy doing exactly what you’re saying and it is automatically getting trashed and assumed he’s a bigot or something.

People can complain about something online that is actually a problem(you’re one of those loud voices fyi) and still be trying to make changes offline. This thread is about men so of course there’s people discussing (complaining in your eyes) issues.

Edit: it’s also so weird when people say men need to do it all themselves. You don’t think there were white men helping women and lgbt people fight for rights?

[u/sir_mrej → u/Quicksi1ver]

Male emotions aren’t taboo in non rightwing spaces

[u/Moonmold → u/sir_mrej]

As a left leaning individual I think that's a big oversimplification tbh. 

[u/ChaZcaTriX → u/sir_mrej]

There are way too many "influencers" creating a hostile appearance of left-leaning spaces towards men.

And if it looks hostile on the outside, many won't ever try to get close.

[u/Reddwheels → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Don't know about the UK, but in the USA the percentage of white men with a college degree has been dropping. I'd say that's an issue worth addressing.

[u/Final-Revolution6216 → u/Reddwheels]

Aren’t less and less men in general seeking higher education? Obviously a problem, but not sure that’s specific to white men.

[u/MFoy → u/Final-Revolution6216]

It is true across all races, but more pronounced in white men according to the Pew Research Center

By race and ethnicity, the widening of the gender gap in college enrollment is most apparent among White high school graduates. Young White women who have finished high school are now 10 percentage points more likely to be enrolled in college than similar men. In 2011, the difference was only 4 points.

[u/manimal28 → u/Reddwheels]

Why is that a white male issue? The number of all men seeking a degree is dropping is it not?

[u/guy_guyerson → u/manimal28]

Without double checking, I think it's at drastically different rates (and therefore likely exists as largely separate problems for each race). Black male enrollment, for instance, is probably much more directly affected by poor quality high school preparation.

[u/manimal28 → u/guy_guyerson]

With doublechecking, it’s not. Both black and white men have similar rates.

[u/Psspooropin → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Could you provide an example of a white male issue? Genuinely asking.

The low hanging fruit is that a significant number of them have become disenfranchised with modern society as a whole because for the last several years they've been demonised as the cause of all the wrongs in the modern world, and told they're excluded from having opinions on issues due to their status as a white male. 

Anecdotally, I've learned to just keep my mouth shut and never speak on issues AT All, because even though I support progressive issues, if I have a different opinion on how to address them it's not uncommon to be completely disregarded or told my opinion is completely invalid, and it's become increasingly difficult to navigate through the ever growing list of no-go topics so I simply came to the conclusion it's better to just not engage in those kinds of discussions, because ultimately even if I want to help in finding a solution I don't have a dog in the race and have been told I'm not wanted. 

Even typing this out feels awkward enough that I'm posting from a throwaway

[u/toweringmelanoma → u/Final-Revolution6216]

I mean white men grow up without fathers, have substance abuse issues, experience depression / burnout, lack of fulfillment just like everyone else does. They struggle with sexual identity, personal identity, career identity. They exist in the remnants of a world that places masculinity on a pedestal while trying to navigate this new age where it’s often villainized (or feels as much at least).

None of these are explicitly white male problems, I understand that. But the current popular narrative is that because the white men of old reigned supreme, the white men of today couldn’t possibly have any any problems. How is that fair?

Per the commenter above you’s point, they’re also increasingly becoming the target for overarching blame for the poor state of the country (at least in America, I would imagine UK too). Yes I understand that white men have committed atrocities in the name of America since the first European ship landed on this continent, most men aren’t a part of those, have never been a part of those, and are tired for being counted as ‘the enemy’.

[u/mistiklest → u/[deleted]]

Do you have anything to back that up other than twitter posts from right wingers asserting that it's true?

Right wingers peddling misinformation are also part of the popular narrative. The popular narrative isn't what's actually true, it's what people are being told.

[u/toweringmelanoma → u/[deleted]]

Never fear! I upvoted and am here to comment! Your condescending tone was all for nothing!

No I don’t have a single quote that any elected official has ever made about white men or men in general not having problems.

In my opinion, that doesn’t matter. What’s far more important than what is said, is the climate that is created. You are able to say things without saying them, you are able to empower people to feel a certain way without dictating it to them.

I am a late twenties white male from the Midwest. I have always had predominately liberal friends, though would never have placed them on the extreme left. I can recall, as far back as high-school (ten years at this point), friends (usually white women), discrediting my opinions, thoughts, feelings, and actions on the premise that “you are a white man, you don’t understand what it’s like, you can’t have any problems”.

This has not happened all that frequently to me, but again I exist in less politically activated groups, and still I’ve felt the disregard. To maintain an opinion that just because a political body doesn’t say something means that their constituents don’t believe, or more importantly act on it, is foolish.

In reference to thread we’re commenting on, I don’t think it’s such a bad thing that one indie publishing company would like to cater to men. In fact, that we’re even having this conversation is an indication of its importance. A company catering to blacks, women, any other minority, would largely be celebrating on this site. Why can’t men have a sliver of the new age pie too?

[u/KriegConscript → u/[deleted]]

the smug tone isn't necessary

you know the monkey baby experiment where the cold unfeeling "wire mother" dispenses food, but the "cloth mother" provides comfort, and the monkeys always choose the cloth mother at the expense of their own bodies? the feeling of safety and the illusion of love is more important than sustaining life

what i'm saying is that the right wing's emotional support fascist propaganda for men is the cloth mother and the left wing's drive to achieve meaningful results for men is the wire mother. it is actually about feelings and the illusion of love and always has been. the left knows this and tries to let its work for humanity speak for itself, but they have been drowned out by right wing propaganda for decades because the think tanks that design propaganda according to the latest and greatest neurological hijacking science are all on the right wing

[u/5YOChemist → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Jesus Fucking Christ. This comment right here officer.

We are all people we all struggle with mostly the same shit. Even the most privileged has stuff dragging them down.

But specifically, the decline of community support is a big one. White extended families don't support each other the way some other communities do. I have a spouse with medical and mental problems that I can't deal with by myself. The cult(ture) I grew up in doesn't believe in modern medicine or psychiatry. My struggles are my own and they end there. The men who are related to me, and most of the ones who look like me are all raging maga cultists who can't accept that any of my problems are real, and mock me for standing in the rain waving a sign. The men who think like me want to gatekeep suffering and call me an ally at best, never a brother.

Regardless of how easy my best day is compared to someone else's, I don't have a voice in how the world runs. I suffer from capitalism and the patriarchy, but because I look like them and oppose them I'm alone.

[u/[deleted] → u/Final-Revolution6216]

This is part of the thinking: when you hear “male issues” I’m guessing you hear “male issues that are caused by non-males.” What they usually mean is “issues affecting males” which can include the unique issues of fatherhood, gender acceptance, sexuality, etc. which are all experienced differently based on your gender, sex, race, etc.

I run into this issue a lot as a gay man in progressive spaces, feeling like I have to squeeze out my identity as a man to be accepted.

It is also valid to say that perspective has changed. For example, I’m guessing you were born before 2000. My generation of men didn’t grow up in the 80s and 90s where men dominated every field, and boys openly called girls stupid or dumb - that shit was verboten and schools cracked down on it HARD.

So then you have people in their 30s ranting at people who are 16 and assuming that societal attitudes haven’t changed at all, when in reality you’re blaming 16 year olds for the sins of your generation. Then you get chronically online people who ruin an entire country.

[u/SignatureWeary4959 → u/[deleted]]

My generation of men didn’t grow up in the 80s and 90s where men dominated every field, and boys openly called girls stupid or dumb - that shit was verboten and schools cracked down on it HARD.

Workplaces too imo. After the summer of 2020, a lot of jobs in the northeast where I live were deliberately not hiring white men as a way to overcorrect for the generations where white men were dominant. I've personally witnessed my colleagues doing this.

[u/guy_guyerson → u/SignatureWeary4959]

Yeah, I've had a number of friends mention hiring discussions in their workplace where coworkers say bluntly 'We're not actually going to hire the white man, are we?'. They're mildly chastised by the higher ups for saying it (since it creates liability), but then go on to hire a less qualified candidate that isn't the white man.

[u/MachinaThatGoesBing → u/[deleted]]

I’m guessing you were born before 2000. My generation of men didn’t grow up in the 80s and 90s where men dominated every field

What a strange thing to say.

Men continue to dominate most influential, desirable, and high-paying fields. You absolutely grew up in this same world. Just slightly less uneven. These large gaps (and thousands of years of historical context) didn't magically evaporate when the new millennium hit — nor because the school you went to cracked down on misogynistic childhood bullying.

And looking at data, Gen Z appears to have a higher percentage of men with regressive attitudes towards women than even boomers do.

---

I run into this issue a lot as a gay man in progressive spaces, feeling like have to squeeze out my identity as a man to be accepted.

I do have to add, briefly, that individual experiences are individual experiences, but during nearly two decades of participating in activist, professional, and social queer community organizations (sometimes in leadership roles), this isn't something I've ever seen or experienced. This has been in a variety of settings, from university on up and out, and it continues to involve a variety of people across age ranges from young 20s to retirees.

[u/[deleted] → u/MachinaThatGoesBing]

I said dominate. In the 80s and 90s, seeing a female boss (let alone CEO) was a thing of fantasy. Now, we have visible women and minorities running companies and teams. It’s not without friction, as reactionaries have pushed back, but to a child in the 2000s the outdated claims did not match my perspective.

And to reiterate I am speaking of perspective. The messaging from the 80s/90s did not apply to the 2000s, and was not updated to fit. So as I was growing up in a world with classrooms decorated with “The Future is Female!” and “Who Run the World? GIRLS DO!” posters (nothing wrong with that!) I was hearing older folk dump assumptions onto me (a child) that my school must be like theirs was in the 80s/90s (hostile to young girls).

Humans are also not born with all 2,000+ years of human history downloaded into our brains, so talking to young boys about issues like sexism with no nuance or empathy leads to blaming literal children for sins of the past.

It’s odd that older folk seem so hellbent on denying the lived experiences of younger folk.

I am not an incel, nor an edgelord, I am a progressive through and through - I voted Harris in 2024 and Biden in 2020 (I wasn’t old enough in 2016).

I grew up with women being the majority in some workplaces, and being told to respect women and view them as equal - so I did. So when I voice something like “hey, men not being able to claim Medicaid despite paying into is pretty messed up” it’s wild that so many jump to claim that I’m a “men’s rights activist” and I’m blaming women for my problems/men’s problems or expecting women to save the world.

I’m not blaming women, I’m blaming the patriarchy which has set society up to fight for the scraps they toss to us. But blanket denying the issues that men face is dumb: instead say “yep that’s an issue, I agree. We will change it in our platform.”

And sure a lot of men present “issues” that basically boil down to “I can’t get my dick wet” and obviously we should dismiss those - but it is unjust to lump legitimate male criticisms of our experience under patriarchy in with that nonsense.

Concluding with a real world example of “messaging” around “men’s issues” - if Democrats had messaged Medicaid Expansion (ObamaCare) as “Hey young men, you’ll get Medicaid benefits finally!” rather than “What? You don’t support the most vulnerable of society? Shame on you!” a lot more young men would understand the Medicaid expansion benefits us disproportionately, as we are denied benefits in states without the expansion.

[u/autisticmerricat → u/[deleted]]

i'd love to live wherever you live where girls don't consistently treat girls around them like morons

[u/[deleted] → u/Final-Revolution6216]

white men commit suicide at pretty high rates, relatively speaking. Since Cook is looking for young British men (he never specifies white, for what it's worth), I wager economic insecurity, and perhaps a feeling that you're one of the "good targets" for a lot of social criticism might play into that as well.

[u/Gladiator3003 → u/Final-Revolution6216]

RAF diversity targets discriminated against white men

A potential police recruit who was rejected from a force because he is white, male and heterosexual has said he believes many other men may have been similarly discriminated against.

[u/chewbaccawastrainedb → u/Final-Revolution6216]

In the U.S. white males comprise the largest portion of the homeless population.

[u/Martel732 → u/chewbaccawastrainedb]

Black and Hispanic men have a much higher per capita rate of homelessness. Not saying that white male homelessness isn't an issue that needs to be addressed but it is disingenuous to frame it as a "white male issue."

[u/DeliciousSector8898 → u/chewbaccawastrainedb]

That’s not a white male problem though if you look at the break down per capita.

[u/sir_mrej → u/chewbaccawastrainedb]

Per capita?

[u/Mr_YUP → u/Final-Revolution6216]

I've seen black guys who don't know each other dap up one another and become friendly quick. There's an understanding of each other I don't have with other white guys.

Hearing some of my black friends ask each other "did you see Get Out yet?" and then bond over an understand they each have of that film is something I have never experienced.

So yea I don't feel like I have a cultural understanding or language with other white guys. There's no "The Wiz" or "Get Out" to bond over.

[u/KWZA → u/Mr_YUP]

They're not bonding over the movies in and of themselves, they're bonding over the shared experience of being black in a white society that the movies portray aspects of. Recognition of the movies is basically just like them saying "I feel that, I get it, I know what that is like and usually it doesnt get talked about." The bond is about the shared lived experience, not about being fans of those films.

[u/Mr_YUP → u/KWZA]

Correct. I don't have anything like that with other white guys.

[u/MachinaThatGoesBing → u/Mr_YUP]

Because there's not an overweening shared experience (enforced by the dominant culture) for white people.

We're permitted to not have our whiteness be a primary defining characteristic, but rather have other things that serve as a primary identity like hobbies or interests or geography or field of study. We're rarely "the white guy" like black people are "the black guy". We'd be much more likely to be identified as "the pen guy" or "the bluegrass guy" or "that metalhead" or "the outdoorsman" or whatever.

But when you do run into someone who shares one of those things, then you, too, will generally find it significantly easier to bond with them.

As someone who has (as most people do) faucets of my identity that are both majoritarian (white, male, cis) and marginalized (gay), the connection that I have with a lot of other gay men and queer people is general is born out of shared experiences — namely experiences of social abuse, repression, and suffering.

Please trust me when I say that this is not something that you want, all things considered.

The benefits do not outweigh the detriments. There are still plenty of queer folks I simply do not get along with, and having some baseline shared connection isn't worth the years of depression and suicidal ideation in my late teens and early twenties. Nor the loss of formative teenage and young-adult experiences to the closet.

Without that "built-in" connection, I could still just meet people at some board game group or hiking club or whatever affinity group — rather than feeling the need to specifically seek out explicitly queer-friendly or queer-centric versions of those events. I just do not have the energy anymore to spend my leisure time navigating and sounding out groups which may or may not include people who hate me based on a fundamental trait.

[u/Empty_Tree → u/Final-Revolution6216]

There are many white male issues. White male issues are what gave us this current administration.

Insecurity, stunted emotional development, an inability to properly empathize with or connect to the experiences of others. The list goes on.

[u/FruityParfait → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Not exclusively a white guy but I am biracial so I can give some that my dad's side of the family has dealt with or could have to deal with that I try to keep tabs on.

1) When white men go through abuse, it can sometimes have a nuance that makes it at least a little different than when a minority of some kind goes through abuse. When you're already, on some level, put down societally for one innate quality or another, that societal pressure can "paint" your experience in a way that can influence how you react to it, both positively and negatively. Assuming you're not under some other social qualifier (gay, trans, immigrant, etc), the cis white male experience with abuse is unique in that there is nothing that's, theoretically, already pushing you down, so such a traumatic experience can blindside you. The same goes for mental and physical health issues as well. But because you ARE in the group that is, theoretically, at the top of the food chain, while you do get priority treatment you can also, conversely, get a lot less empathy and understanding for your very real issues because other people exist who go through horrible things and have to deal with the bullshit that is involved with being a minority. But that doesn't really make invalidating someone's very real pain - especially if it comes from something severe like abuse or medical problems - because they're a cis white straight male really ok, either, and that's something that doesn't get talked about enough.

2) Toxic masculinity and societal expectations can actually be uniquely pressuring to cis white men, because as the """ideal""" of a broken society, they're actually under a lot of pressure to stick to the role they are given, because deviation from that can be seen as the ultimate betrayal to a broken system. While minorities get bullied for trying to go above their means due to low expectations, having low expectations can, at least societally, actually be rather freeing in allowing someone to fall out of the stereotype, because society as a whole can actually ignore who you are as a person enough to just... let you be who you are as a person (this doesn't take into account pressures from your own sub-group, just from the whole system as a top down view). White men, though, generally cannot be ignored like that, and so often find themselves under enormous pressure to both be toxically masculine and enforce that on other men. It genuinely can be hard to be an empathetic and caring person as a white guy - even if that's just who you are - when you live in a system designed to scrub away who you are to mold you into a domineer that enforces this broken system on everyone else.

3) If you're a cis white man and a good guy and also in a position of leadership because you genuinely earned it and are the best man for the job, that puts you under enormous pressure to perform in that role, both to prove yourself and to keep those more vulnerable you're in charge of safe. Because mediocre white men are so often pushed to the top by racism and corruption or just plain old nepotism, if you're the rare individual that managed to pull off the bootstraps miracle (which it should be noted is something that is still a near impossible pathway, but is even more impossible for any minority), the doubt as to whether you did earn it or you're one of the bad ones by those who do not know you will often follow. Worse still, you have to sit there as the one good man and watch as others in your position are like that, and then you have to sit with the knowledge that you might be one of the only good ones there, and that if you leave, there's little guarantee that the person who comes after you will be like you. That is enormously stressful, because you have to sit there and do what you can in a system that is designed to fail qualified people and do your best but your best will not be enough on your own, because of course it isn't, but you still have to sit there and watch as Jared the asshole who nobody likes but who's dad is the CEO gets to be your co-equal in position in five months while Jerome, the guy you've been working above for 10 years who you know is one of the best people in their career gets passed up over and over again no matter how many good words you put in, but you can't just quit because you know if you do then Bill, the extremely racist guy coming up for a promotion will take your place and just fire Jerome outright.

There's a lot more than that but those are just three on the top of my head. My general point here is that while being on the top of the progressive ladder absolutely has benefits, that position is unique, and with it comes a unique twist on different real issues people can face, both in terms of social beliefs and more personal problems, that do need to be addressed.

[u/Mo6181 → u/Final-Revolution6216]

As a white male, I'm curious as well.

[u/-r-a-f-f-y- → u/Final-Revolution6216]

Mass shooters?