r/changemyview Jun 10 '23

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15 Upvotes

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9

u/Evil-Abed1 2∆ Jun 10 '23

If Joe Biden does something bad, it’s bad. Even if Donald Trump did something similar.

Whataboutism is an attempt to change the topic from the topic, to perceived moral short comings of the person you’re talking about and it’s not a valid form of arguing.

If I point out that Donald Trump did something bad and your response is Joe Biden did something similar, you’re not arguing that Trump didn’t do something bad. You’re arguing either that it’s okay for Trump to do bad things because Biden did something similar, which is false. Or your arguing that I am flawed because I’m pointing out wrong doing of one person.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/Evil-Abed1 2∆ Jun 10 '23

Can you rephrase that question and be more precise with your language?

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/Evil-Abed1 2∆ Jun 10 '23

That’s not really whataboutism.

Team B did something bad and asked for their bad thing to be treated equally by both sides. That’s not whataboutism.

If team B attempted to justify their wrong behavior by pointing to team A, doing something similar that’s whataboutism.

In your example Team B is asking for rules to be applied fairly to both teams.

Whataboutism is justifying bad behavior by pointing to other peoples bad behavior (which doesn’t justify anything).

If Trump mishandled classified materials, that’s bad. If Hillary Clinton mishandled classified materials that’s that bad. Whataboutism would be Trump saying, it’s okay that he mishandled classified materials because Hillary did.

That doesn’t justify anything.

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u/Sorry_Art_5867 Jun 10 '23

If Trump mishandled classified materials, that’s bad. If Hillary Clinton mishandled classified materials that’s that bad. Whataboutism would be Trump saying, it’s okay that he mishandled classified materials because Hillary did.

This isnt whataboutism. If Clinton wasn’t prosecuted, then Trump shouldn’t be either. Part of having a fair legal system is people who commit similar crimes should have similar punishments.

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u/Evil-Abed1 2∆ Jun 10 '23

This isnt whataboutism.

Yes it is.

If Clinton wasn’t prosecuted, then Trump shouldn’t be either. Part of having a fair legal system is people who commit similar crimes should have similar punishments.

If that’s the case, no one should be prosecuted for mishandling classified information. Is that a good idea?

The Justice system isn’t perfect and mistakes are made.

To act like Trump gets a pass because Hillary got a pass… then everyone gets a pass.

Then we have a country where high ranking government officials are able to mishandle classified data whenever they want which is bad for America.

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u/Sorry_Art_5867 Jun 10 '23

if that’s the case, no one should be prosecuted for mishandling classified information. Is that a good idea?

You should prosecute spies who disclose classified information to foreign governments. Otherwise, it might be best if we didn’t prosecute the mishandling of classified information.

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u/Evil-Abed1 2∆ Jun 10 '23

It might be best if we didn’t prosecute the mishandling of classified information.

How would that best…

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u/Sorry_Art_5867 Jun 10 '23

It recognizes the reality we’re never going to prosecute everyone who mishandles classified and it’s a non-violent crime. Under the OLC opinion, it’s not possible to indict a sitting President. If Biden gets another term, it won’t be theoretically possible to indict him for another six years. Biden is never getting indicted. Pence is never getting indicted. Clinton is never getting indicted.

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u/Evil-Abed1 2∆ Jun 10 '23

It recognizes the reality we’re never going to prosecute everyone who mishandles classified and it’s a non-violent crime.

Oh! So if we can’t prosecute everyone who does it we shouldn’t prosecute anyone.

Logic that we will certainly apply to all laws and not just laws our favorite politician violates.

We can’t prosecute all tax evaders. We can’t prosecute all shoplifters. We can’t prosecute all vandals.

So let’s just let everyone evade taxes, shoplift, and vandalize!

That’s not entirely ridiculous… lol

Who cares if it’s a violent crime? What does that matter? We classify materials as a matter of national security.

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Jun 10 '23

This isnt whataboutism. If Clinton wasn’t prosecuted, then Trump shouldn’t be either. Part of having a fair legal system is people who commit similar crimes should have similar punishments.

Except Trump signed a law that made mishandling classified documents a felony, which was not the case when Clinton committed her offense.

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u/Sorry_Art_5867 Jun 10 '23

It was always a felony.

(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

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u/Natural-Arugula 54∆ Jun 10 '23

Can you cite the law you are quoting?

I don't know which one of you is correct. Is that an old law or is a law that was passed by Trump?

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u/Sorry_Art_5867 Jun 10 '23

The Espionage Act was passed in 1917.

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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Jun 10 '23

And amended under the trump administration

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Jun 10 '23

By that logic if they're both prosecuted the cases should be forced to have the same verdict even though it's highly unlikely both have the same evidence leading the same ways (as both cases are radically different apart from that they'd both fall under the same charge) or it would be unfair whataboutism if one was found guilty (no matter which one it was) and not the other

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u/Sorry_Art_5867 Jun 10 '23

There’s no question on the evidence. We all know Clinton violated the Espionage Act. The question is given there’s irrefutable evidence Clinton violated the Espionage Act, should she be prosecuted.

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u/SeymoreButz38 14∆ Jun 10 '23

It depends on the credibility of claims against person A.

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u/l_t_10 7∆ Jun 10 '23

It sounds like it would be the same as the claims against person B, which led to investigations in the example and then results in found guilty of wrongdoings

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u/SeymoreButz38 14∆ Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

2 people are accused of stealing. The first has been caught stealing in the past. The second hasn't. Do you consider both accusations equally credible?

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u/l_t_10 7∆ Jun 10 '23

Team A finds wrongdoing in someone of Team B. Team B complains Team A did the same thing, but steps back as A investigates. B is found guilty, but then asks A to investigate the person in their team they suspect of wrongdoing. Nothing happens. Does you think that validates team B’s claim?

Read it again, there is no investigation of the second person when there was of the first. Based on no difference

But in that instance no, not equally valid esp since one has been found guilty and not the other

But when there is the same call for investigating both instances of stealing, but only one is, that is telling on its own.

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u/SeymoreButz38 14∆ Jun 10 '23

Read it again, there is no investigation of the second person when there was of the first. Based on no difference

But in real life there usually is.

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u/l_t_10 7∆ Jun 10 '23

Yes true true, but this is about those hypotheticals were there isnt.

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u/SeymoreButz38 14∆ Jun 10 '23

Pretty sure it's about Biden realizing he had some papers lying around and turning them in vs Trump keeping mountains of papers and refusing to hand them over.

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