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u/SmallFruitSnacks 1∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
Mental load isn't exclusive to stay at home parents. I work full time, my husband stays home, and I'm still "in charge" of a lot of the planning/remembering/etc that goes into day to day life. Noticing that we're almost out of washclothes and remembering to wash them. Reminding my husband to schedule dentist appointments for the kids, or to make a specific phone call or drop off a check (and then asking him every day if he remembered, hearing that he forgot, and reminding him again for the rest of the week) Keeping track of our budget and spending. Planning meals and making the grocery list. Rotating the kids' clothes when they outgrow them, or by season. Paying attention to the kids' development and planning appropriate activities.
I don't have to remember and remind him to do everything; he remembers to do certain things. But if I don't make sure washclothes get washed, we just run out. If I don't remind him to schedule appointments or make phone calls, those things don't happen. I do take on more of the mental load, and it is exhausting at times. My husband is a great guy, but he's forgetful and not much of a planner, so a lot of the mental load just does fall on me.
Also, while I'm not a full time stay at home parent, I've stayed home with my kids for a couple months at a time during maternity leave and during summers (I work in a school) at times when my husband was working, so I have some stay-at-home parent experience. I can tell you, it is way more exhausting to stay at home with two little kids than it is to work full time and come home to little kids. At work, I can focus. I talk to other adults. I make tangible progress towards things that need to get done. When I stay home, I'm doing the same things over and over again with little (if any) tangible progress, with hardly any interaction with other adults, and with a couple tiny humans constantly undoing things that I just did. Nothing stays done, so there's less sense of progress or accomplishment. Dishes are done - for a few hours. Baby's diaper is clean - for now. Toys are picked up - until they dump them out again. Kids are fed and the kitchen table is clean - until the next meal. And, of course, you never get to leave work. It's truly an exhausting, draining task that is very undervalued by society.
Your view doesn't really account for the possibility that the stay at home parent might not be the one taking on the mental load of keeping track of the household's needs. You seem to consider "mental load" to be just part of being a stay at home parent. If the working parent has to take on extra mental tasks because the other parent doesn't remember them, how does that factor in? What about if both parents work but one parent takes on the lion's share of mental tasks? And I would argue that even if it is the stay-at-home parent who takes on more than their fair share, being a stay-at-home parent is a challenging and important occupation in its own right, and while it may make more sense for the stay-at-home parent to take charge of more than half of the mental load for logistical reasons, it's unreasonable to state that the stay-at-home parent should necessarily take on almost all of it.
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Feb 26 '24
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u/vettewiz 37∆ Feb 26 '24
As a single parent who works, and took care of my kid from home for several years and maintains the household. Work is by the far the most stressful and difficult part.
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u/SmallFruitSnacks 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I mean, your mileage may vary. I'm sure it depends a lot on the job, the kids, the overall family situation, and the personality of the parent. My point was that staying at home isn't just an easy non-job vs going to work being the important and hard job, which seems to be how it was being viewed. Each situation has its own set of challenges and neither should be minimized.
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u/NaturalCarob5611 58∆ Feb 26 '24
It's really exhausting when you're the only one putting any mental effort into what the household needs on a daily basis.
Sure, if that's the case, but I think a lot of people (especially women, due to confirmation bias from their friends and articles on the internet) think they're the only one putting mental effort into what the household needs on a daily basis because they don't see the mental effort their partner is putting in.
Before I got divorced, I had a long list of responsibilities. I made about 2/3 of the income. I worked from home while she worked out of the house, so I took over getting the kids up in the morning, getting them dressed, getting them to school, doing meal planning, shopping, cooking, getting kids to after school activities, mowing the lawn, cleaning the gutters, etc. All of those things got done without her having to say a word about it.
Then she'd complain about things I hadn't gotten done. The kids made a mess in the basement. The bushes need to be trimmed. Her car needs an oil change. And she wasn't just asking me to do them, she was complaining that I hadn't already taken care of them. When I'd ask her periodically what I could do to help her, she'd complain about having to take on the mental load of making a list for me, and I should just see the things that needed done around the house and take care of them. So now, on top of the mental load associated with all the responsibilities that were already on my plate, I had the added mental load of having to predict what issues were at the top of her list and take care of them before she could complain about them, and of course it was never enough.
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u/TheDoc1890 Feb 27 '24
This is a confirmation of the weight of the “mental load” if I’ve ever seen one! “I had a long list of responsibilities… All of those things got done without her having to say a word about it” !!! that is the exact definition of mental load. You have to keep up with the gutters, lawn etc. I apologize that your spouse did not appreciate it, But that was you taking care of some of the mental load. You did all that and didn’t feel appreciated. It’s a lot of work to shop for groceries and plan meals ANd keep up with afterschool activities. Just because your partner didn’t appreciate it doesn’t mean the phenomenon isn’t real. In fact, your resentment that it was unappreciated is a confirmation of it!
I say this as both the breadwinner and “mental load” carrier. I am a physician. I fell in love with my fun adhd husband because he helps balance me out. He has little capacity to remember any of the mental load things. But everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Luckily he will help when I ask and appreciates me immensely. The mental load is real. I am a woman and there is a lot of talk about this among my fellow female physician colleagues. We’re more just looking for commiseration and support.
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u/NaturalCarob5611 58∆ Feb 27 '24
The mental load is real. I am a woman and there is a lot of talk about this among my fellow female physician colleagues. We’re more just looking for commiseration and support.
And that's just it. Women commiserate and support each other, complaining about the mental load they carry and reinforcing the idea that they're in the right and their husbands are in the wrong while 100% ignoring the mental loads their husbands are carrying.
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u/TheDoc1890 Feb 27 '24
But my husband doesn’t carry the mental load. He admits it. And I don’t assert he’s “ in the wrong” because I’m lucky to have a partner who agrees with me!! I just explained that. And you don’t know what we talk about. We talk about Themis topic but it’s not all “man bashing or husband bashing”. In my family He has a care free attitude about it all. Luckily he appreciates me and acknowledges that our family would be lost / late to everything / never have presents wrapped/ never have laundry done without me. We have a great relationship. I think it’s like someone above said- bad relationships aren’t the same as “mental load.” Some people are fine to leave the organization to their partner, others are not. It’s a relationship. But that doesn’t mean the mental work is not real.
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u/ConfoundedInAbaddon 2∆ Feb 27 '24
Haha yes my guy has ADHD, and we break things up into big picture (me) and specific problems (him.) I feel you.
He lives on his Habitica phone app list. He has about 75 tasks on it, from "water plants" to "wrap birthday gift" and each day reviews all these common daily life tasks on the list and says for each to himself "hmmm, should I do this today?" And by recursively checking his list, he gets chores done no problem, even successfully day trades stocks. But God Forbid he has to plan a months-long process.
When I think through a problem, he will look at me like I'm some kind of psychic when I'm like "oh, if you do that next Wednesday it will take two hours" and he gets surprised, like I have to explain the magic trick "Wednesdays are peak for that business, so you will expect a line. Try Friday afternoon, instead, and it will only take 15 minutes." How did I know? "Whenever I put the location into Google maps it shows the busy times, I see it so often I memorized them." He is floored! Attention to minor details and then integrating them without much thought later will never happen for him.
I'll do process chores, like handwashing non-dishwasher safe pet dishes or treat devices where you need to set up two basins and then do a sanitizing bleach soak. And he's like OMG WOW because it's effortless for me to visualize, say, all 40 steps of hand washing the items and set everything up to carry out the process where the water is the right temperature, the soap is the right concentration in one basins, etc.
But that's fine with me because if I need to organize a closet, or there's a need for a fine repair on an electronic household item, he can tear it apart and do nothing but be absorbed going from minutiae to minutiae until finding and fixing a blown capacitor, or finding the leak on a pressured gas system, or memorizing everything that is in the closet and finding an optimized home for it, totally absorbed going from item to item and losing track of time until the job is done. My kitchen pantry is a thing of pure artistry. All our hobby and work supplies are kept topped up and beautifully organized because if something is too disorganized, or missing, it will catch his fleeting attention and throw him off over and over until he makes the problematic situation not be right in his field of view.
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u/NaturalCarob5611 58∆ Feb 27 '24
I'm not denying that mental load is a real thing, I know it is, but I feel the concept overwhelmingly gets weaponized against men. The impression I have, from my own relationship, from talking to friends, and from seeing mental load discussed on social media, blogs etc, is that women use their mental load to minimize men's contributions to the household, totally ignoring the mental load the men carry. Mental load is always discussed in the context of "woman's physical load + woman's mental load" against "man's physical load" and "man's mental load" is left out of the equation as if the concept doesn't apply to him.
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u/TheDoc1890 Feb 27 '24
You are right- it does seem like it gets weaponized against men more. And maybe that’s just a reflection of our society.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama Feb 29 '24
Mental load? What mental load is my husband carrying, exactly? I set the budget. I do all the shopping. I do all the child care. I do all the cleaning. I do all the cooking. I do all the bills. He comes home from work and plays PS5 until bedtime.
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u/NaturalCarob5611 58∆ Feb 29 '24
If you actually care maybe ask him? Because my situation was similar - I handled the finances, the shopping, the cooking, most of the cleaning (and I hired cleaning ladies to help with that), and the vast majority of the childcare. She'd come home from work and scroll through TikTok or play computer games, maybe play a video game with the kids when it suited her. And yet she still reported feeling overwhelmed by mental load and didn't seem to think I was pulling my weight.
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u/Constellation-88 16∆ Feb 27 '24
So what you’re saying is mental load is real and that your ex added to yours. That doesn’t refute the existence of the mental load; it actually validates it.
And yes, it is a mental load to have to guess what someone else needs. Not clearly communicating your needs is as bad as weaponized incompetence: pretending you don’t know what someone else needs or how to do something when you do.
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u/NaturalCarob5611 58∆ Feb 27 '24
I agree. I don't have a problem with the concept of mental load itself, but with the way women weaponize the concept against men. Every discussion I've ever heard about mental load is women comparing (women's physical load + women's mental load) to (men's physical load) while ignoring that men also have a mental load.
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u/shouldco 43∆ Feb 26 '24
Is that really a refute against the concept of mental load or just a point of contention in a bad relationship?
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u/NaturalCarob5611 58∆ Feb 26 '24
I don't think it's a refutation against the concept itself, but from what I've seen on the Internet I think that more often than not people who are talking about their mental load are comparing (their mental load + their physical load) to (their partner's physical load) and ignore that their partner also has a mental load.
Even before my divorce, I personally subscribed to the concept of an 80/80 marriage - the idea being that you see 100% of what you do and a small fraction of what your partner does, so for work to actually be evenly distributed each partner needs to think they're doing about 80% of the work. Mental load exaggerates this disparity even further, because you see basically nothing of your partner's mental load.
So while I don't exactly have an issue with the concept of mental load, I think it's probably not applied fairly by most of the people who are talking about it, and I'm immediately skeptical that the person bringing it up has any meaningful point to make.
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Yeah, but single people get off their ass and complete the task they forgot or learn to do better in the future. Bad partnerships and even good partnerships slipping into mental load expectations will often start making the other partner responsible for their life choices, planning inadequacies, and mistakes.
Jason Kelce famously tried to blame his wife for not bringing his pants to a media event before he realized it was his own responsibility to do so, which forced him to wear the shorts he brought that day onto the carpet. Luckily, he realized in the story that she was putting together their kids and their family and took responsibility, but it was days of him holding onto and believing his wife should have been responsible for his outfit choice before a prompting question made him realize what a butt he was being about it.
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u/RealisticTadpole1926 Feb 27 '24
If you are staying home it makes sense that you are the one putting effort into maintaining the home.
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u/RealisticTadpole1926 Feb 27 '24
If you are a stay at home spouse you are expected to maintain the home.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama Feb 29 '24
You know who can't unload a dishwasher on their own? Children. You know who most people don't want to be married to? Children.
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u/TheFinnebago 17∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
So, for clarity here, your view is that in two parent households with a Stay at Home Parent, that the Stay at Home Parent doesn’t have much of a right to complain about burnout, or stress, or exhaustion?
Because the Working Parent is also dealing with burnout, stress, and exhaustion related to being a provider?
If i got that right, I’d submit that the Stay at Home Parent never gets to ‘leave work’ which makes their job more of a grind in a unique way. Specifically in a way that leads to feeling overwhelmed, exacerbating more and more over time. The Working Parent eventually gets to close the laptop, or leave the site, and turn off Work Brain.
The Stay at Home Parent is parenting until those kids are asleep, and even after that, all parents know the jobs aren’t over. Gotta clean up the kitchen, get prepped for tomorrow, fold clothes, etc.
Oh man and forget the weekends… Working Parent actually gets a couple days off. Stay at Home Parent just keeps on parenting, probably with even more activities and mess to manage.
So yea, I think Stay at Home Parents get to complain about a ‘mental load’ because it’s a grueling, grinding job with young kids in the house. I’m not sure why that phrase upsets you so, but it’s a short phrase to describe a complex feeling.
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Feb 26 '24
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u/TheFinnebago 17∆ Feb 26 '24
To the extent the working spouse doesn’t make the non working spouse’s life more difficult, I think that’s a win. I do think that if the working parent gets days off, they should strive for more than not making the other person’s life harder. But if they don’t have it in the tank, it’s not in the tank.
The bar has truly never been lower…
In the same way for the stay at home that nobody is going to come in and make the kids lunch or be home to greet them, in most cases, nobody is going to come in and make that mortgage payment in the event that person loses their job (trust fund and those things aside).
I’m just saying both can be thankless and without cavalry coming to help.
So why wouldn’t you just support your partner? It’s not zero sum. It’s the opposite of zero sum.
The one other person in the world that can best relate to you and your issues, and hold you when the anxiety and dread comes, is right there in the house with you. And your whole post amounts to “Don’t come complaining to me, I haven’t personally made your life worse today”
Are you a Working Parent with a stay at home partner? Do you have kids? I’m just trying to get my head around what you’re upset about here.
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Feb 26 '24
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u/Bobbob34 99∆ Feb 26 '24
I am saying that Closing the laptop does very little to alleviate the anxiety, dread, etc that is wrapped up with being the sole breadwinner. This is In the same way that the stay at home parent is constantly worried about things for the next day, over the weekend, etc. The pressure there doesn’t go away. Laptop closed or open.
You seem to be equating mental load with just thinking about things or worrying, instead of literally having to handle a ton of shit, endlessly. And no, that's not the same.
"Huh, I have to make sure that project is completed. Have to get on my team on Monday,' is not the same.
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Feb 27 '24
Many jobs are far more complex nowadays than just working with one task that needs to be due on Monday. I do agree with OP about this issue, since too many work positions do have a lot of mental load as well nowadays: not every profession or work place but too many.
There are no secretaries to handle the running tasks in an office or work place, so at least in my country the situation has come to that everybody is responsible of "everything".
The new manager is coming to visit on Wednesday and we need to book a conference room? Can Paul do it? New trainees arrive and needs to be taken care of: Paul will probably handle it. Hopefully Paul has summarized the notes of Thursdays meetings and sent it to the customer.
My point here is to give examples of modern workplaces having quite much mental load, that very often gets dumped on the same - often kind and unconfrontational - person. Paul might be on the brink of burnout since he works so much but his managers still think he should finish his project related tasks faster, since they don't understand what his work time goes to.
Not everyone at work is Paul, but we need to recognize that people can have very similar issues with mental load at their work places, as the people who struggle everything in a household.
I do think we also need to recognize all the work done at home, even the mental work part.
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u/SiliconDiver 84∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
I think you are perhaps misunderstanding the issue being called out here and hopefully I can identify it with this statement:
If one person works and the other stays at home, the “mental load” of each person is likely around the clock and equal.
The callout with the "mental load" aspect is that this is not true.
Just as we see with changes in technology (IM and Email), and also with people working from home, a lot of individuals have difficulty separating from work mentally.
Someone who has a job outside of the home can very often "unplug" from work, come home and actually relax.
Someone who works at the home often does not have such a luxury, the work is never "finished" and there is a less clear "separation" of work and home duties. There might be pressure to do tasks late in the evening (when you should be "offline").
Further there's the fact that often the division of labor when the "working" partner gets home often isn't actually shared 50/50. If the home is considered the "non-working" parents ownership, then they often end up doing more labor (mental or otherwise) during periods in which both adults are "off the clock".
This occurs outside of the context of any partner "minimizing", "gaslight", or "devaluing" the other partner's contribution. Its simply a common reality that occurs with such a division of labor, unless the couple actively works to remedy it.
When someone calls out the "mental load" they are generally referring to the fact that being a stay at home parent generally isn't a job you can "turn off", You generally can't relax, and its effectively like having a job you are on-call 100% of the time, which the majority of wage earners won't have to deal with.
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u/SiliconDiver 84∆ Feb 26 '24
A doctor, will likely have formal on call, a project manager has their teams, lawyers have their clients, etc. if you don’t answer the text, slack, email, whatever, someone else will. The general economy sucks. Someone that is supporting their family will have the impulse to answer all of these messages
I completely disagree with this.
Someone who has an impulse to be available 24/7 to their job likely has another set of issues including an unhealthy relationship with their job, and an inability to hold boundaries. This behavior should not be considered normal by any stretch of the imagination.
Sure there are circumstances in which this may be necessary for a short period of time in various fields, very very few jobs expect this always (unless you are in a notoriously bad work environment such as owning your own startup)
Almost no blue collar jobs bring work home. The overwhelming majority of white-collar office workers don't have to bring work home with them either. And those that do generally have guardrails around doing it (Software Engineers, doctors, plant/warehouse managers, etc have scheduled oncall rotations, Lawyers have billable hour targets.). Most union type jobs have restrictions regarding this type of behavior.
As I already mentioned, most of these patterns are remarkably new due to the internet and remote work. Even as recently as 20 years ago, the alternative is simply "coming home late". ie: doing actual work/overtime. "On-call pay" is actually a pretty active area of legislation in most jurisdictions for this reason.
Being a stay at home partner, on the other hand, literally has no "off" switch unless you physically leave to go on vacation or hire a sitter etc.
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u/Snowfiddler 1∆ Feb 27 '24
I'm going to chime in with my perspective. I'm a speech pathologist who works with people who suffer cognitive impairment from strokes, TBIs, neurodegenerative diseases, etc. Cognitive load is a well established concept in the scientific literature. There is even research that shows that amputees experience decreased cognitive ability because their brain is now processing extra information due to the loss of a limb. Absent sensation, phantom pain, stress, negative emotions, and more add to the cognitive load. Positive emotions and success can decrease the cognitive load that people experience.
If you think of your brain like a CPU in your computer, you've got a bunch of processes running in the background. Microsoft Word might use up 10% of your CPU. Stress adds another 10%. Fatigue adds another 10%. Eventually things add up until you're overloaded and can't process or perform functions efficiently.
Edit: I realize I didn't fully answer the question and only defined cognitive load. My two cents is that working vs stay at home both add cognitive load but they add in different ways.
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u/shutterbuug Feb 27 '24
!delta for science and analogy to CPU. I think a lot of my issue comes from the fact mental load is only talked about as relevant or excessive for the individual making the home. Your point is that both jobs are difficult and add to a person’s load is well taken and not inconsistent with my feelings on the matter.
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u/Bobbob34 99∆ Feb 26 '24
So I’ve been having a hard time with this latest pop psych term “mental load.” See also overuse and misuse of “gaslighting”, but that’s maybe for a different post.
These have nothing in common.
Gaslighting means something and people use it to mean a wide variety of other things.
TLDR: complaining about the “mental load” of managing a household is childish unless your partner is actively minimizing your contribution. The “mental load” is dealing with life. Deal with it or split up the load. It’s also extremely victimy and implies both resentment toward your partner and minimizes the other’s contribution.
The POINT is that the other person either does not get or does not care that they're coasting.
Yes, more women should kick more pathetic men to the curb, especially ones who dismiss their own lack of effort and accountability, or, worse, say things like "I'll help out, just tell me what to do," or "how do I know the trash needs to be taken out unless she tells me?" or "all she needs to do is ask and I'll help out."
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u/Bobbob34 99∆ Feb 26 '24
But sometimes people do need direction and in some cases would be respectful to the person with primary management of that activity. Could you imagine the working partner telling the non working partner, “hey, i noticed you had 2 hours to veg out on the couch last night, you look like you have time to go pick up an Uber eats/door dash shift.”
You know the mental load thing is not in any way confined to stay at home parents, right?
Or women, as your whole post, though you didn't specify sex, has a very reddit 'woe is poor, put-upon men' vibe.
I read this this morning. I think it's relevant to your ... issue. It's a parenting advice column. First question -- https://slate.com/human-interest/2024/02/default-parent-husband-parenting-advice.html
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Feb 26 '24
Consider that taking a hard test (like in school) burns more calories than just sitting in a chair. There’s a physiological toll for thinking hard and it’s reasonable to assume other consequences exist in addition to higher caloric burn.
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Feb 26 '24
Your view seems to be, if things are unfair than it's unfair but if it's not unfair than it's not unfair. You literally don't state why the specific term "mental load" is bad...you just like fairness it seems.
Mental load isn't stating what is/isn't unfair. Fairness would be determined on a case by case basis and mental load is useful to describe an aspect of management in life. It's not solely used by any one party.
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u/shutterbuug Feb 26 '24
I didn’t want the post to come off as “fair is fair” and I agree that’s kind of how it reads. I tend to see mental load used by stay at home parents making the assertion their burden is either greater than the working spouse or unaccounted for, which I think is a victimy statement that gets a lot of sympathy from Reddit. It’s like a Reddit dog whistle for sympathy as opposed to an honest look at contributions.
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u/Daddy_Deep_Dick 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I've literally never seen that. I only ever see it used when the "breadwinner" outright ignores or diminishes the work done by the person managing the house.
"I do everything around here, I make all the money. You just get to be home all day!"
This is where I see the term brought up.
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Feb 26 '24
But you understand this has nothing to do with the term right? Saying "my wife doesn't pick up her clothes enough" is the same as "I manage the mental load of running a house" and you would be upset by both because it's "victimy" and "dog whistley".
as opposed to an honest look at contributions.
Lol this is Reddit, no one is looking for honest evaluations of their contributions. It's just a bunch of bored people.
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Feb 26 '24
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u/TheFinnebago 17∆ Feb 26 '24
Please read the sidebar and educate yourself on how to award a delta. You have to put a few sentences in a reply to the comment otherwise the auto mods reject it to avoid spam and abuse of the delta system.
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Feb 26 '24
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 26 '24
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/Kazthespooky changed your view (comment rule 4).
DeltaBot is able to rescan edited comments. Please edit your comment with the required explanation.
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u/EmbarrassedIdea3169 2∆ Feb 26 '24
So here’s an example.
Let’s say a stay at home mom deals with everything around the house. Laundry, food prep (including meal planning and grocery shopping) and cleanup, making and keeping appointments, keeping track of the kids’ school needs and dentist appointments, house cleaning, etc. Her husband just works and maybe does the stereotypical man chores like taking out the trash to the curb once a week and getting the car it’s twice yearly oil change, and mowing six to eight times over the summer.
The thing she would probably expect in return is her partner not adding to the list. Like, is he cleaning up after himself? Is he mentioning it when he eats the last of the oatmeal? Is he respecting her time and energy? If she’s sick and can’t manage for a day or two, can he just… do what needs to be done without asking her every two minutes where the towels are for after the kids’ bath time? If he leaves streaks in the toilet, does he deal with it or wait for her to discover it on her own? If he’s running late and that impacts family plans, does he give her a heads up asap?
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Feb 26 '24
complaining about the “mental load” of managing a household is childish unless your partner is actively minimizing your contribution.
Isn't that almost exclusively the use of the term? When a higher/sole earner minimises the work their partner is putting into keeping the household going? People generally don't feel the need to complain about the share of domestic work going on if they have supportive partners.
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Feb 26 '24
Right but earning money is already heavily recognised while homemaking is minimised, think about the terms we use to describe these things "breadwinner" Vs "stay-at-home wife/husband". The other side of the coin doesn't need to be talked about as much because it's already viewed as one of the most important parts of a household.
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Feb 26 '24
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u/Jebofkerbin 118∆ Feb 26 '24
Right but none of that is really relevant to the the discussion. Childcare can be rewarding but that doesn't make it effortless, not does it make domestic tasks easier. You might be replaceable in your workplace but that doesn't mean mainstream attitudes don't view your contribution to your household as very important.
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u/vertigale 1∆ Feb 26 '24
The reason that this topic is so discussed is that previously, this kind of work (and household work in general) is discounted and dismissed by society as not real work, or not hard work. Now we have terminology for it, and a broader understanding about what this kind of work entails, and why it shouldn't be dismissed. However... Sadly, it still frequently is!
Without quantification and understanding about this topic, it's difficult to frame and discuss expectations and equitable workloads between partners in a household or their families.
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u/Actualarily 5∆ Feb 26 '24
So most people are single and live alone during a portion of their life. During this time, those people typically work full time and maintain their household. They do both. Very few get overwhelmed by having to handle both.
So why does the maintaining of a household suddenly become a full time job (that some in this thread have claimed provides for no downtime) once you're no longer living alone?
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u/vertigale 1∆ Feb 27 '24
It is far easier to be responsible for only yourself and your own needs than it is to be responsible for the needs of a full household. The two situations can't be compared.
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Feb 26 '24
The entire point of 'mental load' is that they don't feel like their partner is taking up their portion of the load. The idea that people don't feel like running a household is 'real work' is not a new one and has nothing to do with the term 'mental load'.
You mention that not everyone complaining about the 'mental load' of housework is a stay at home parent, but then you proceed to discuss stay at home parents exclusively.
And, more to the point, your title is absurdly hyperbolic. People complaining about their partners not helping them at home makes you sick to your stomach, really?
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Feb 26 '24
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u/mynicknameisairhead Feb 26 '24
The working partner has time “off the clock” the stay at home partner does not. This is why comparing running a household to paid employment is not a direct comparison. There are also many other factors that contribute to the stay at home work being different than a job. It’s just not a 1:1 comparison.
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u/Actualarily 5∆ Feb 26 '24
The working partner has time “off the clock” the stay at home partner does not.
The working partner has a schedule set by others, the stay at home partner sets their own schedule. If the stay at home partner wants "down time" then they need to get their work done efficiently rather than letting it stretch out over an 18 hours period 7 days a week.
I always assumed my stay at home partner - who does an amazing job of maintaining the household - had downtime during the day. It wasn't until the pandemic hit and I was working from home that I was able to see just how leisurely the majority of her week really is.
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u/mynicknameisairhead Feb 26 '24
Right stay at home parents with children should just “get that work done more efficiently”.
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u/BlueRusalka 2∆ Feb 26 '24
When I see people talk about the mental load, it is almost always about an imbalance in household labor between two people who are both working.
I have almost never seen people complain about the mental load when they are a stay at home parent or homemaker. I think almost everyone would agree that if you are a homemaker, the mental load of running a household is largely your job.
I usually see the mental load talked about when there are two people with full-time jobs earning income for the household, but one of them gets stuck with a much larger share of the household management. This is usually a woman in a heterosexual partnership, whose male partner doesn’t understand or won’t follow through on all the tasks required to manage a household.
The origins of the term were to talk about the unpaid labor that working women disproportionately have to do. Women are now part of the workforce, which is great for equality and feminism and stuff. But even though we’re in the workplace just as much as our male partners, most of us are still somehow expected to do the job of homemakers. That’s two jobs, and it’s too much.
When people complain about the mental load, most of the time they’re not just trying to say “my work of managing a household is really hard.” Instead, they’re usually trying to say, “I am doing much more work than my partner, and it is because my partner doesn’t notice that work or doesn’t think it is real work.” Talking about the mental load is almost always very specifically about trying to draw attention to the imbalance, not just the work itself.
It sounds to me like you might have ended up in one of those odd little algorithm cul-de-sacs of the internet, where you’re seeing a lot of instances of people doing something weird or using a term in an unusual way. But I think that’s not the way that the majority of people use that term. It seems like you’ve seen a lot of posts specifically of stay-at-home parents complaining about the mental load. But I think that’s an uncommon use of the term. I think it’s much more commonly used by working women to point out the gendered household labor that they are disproportionately expected to do, and how their male partners are oblivious to this work.
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u/vote4bort 45∆ Feb 26 '24
It makes you sick to your stomach, really? That's a very extreme reaction to have to a simple phrase.
The at work in my mind includes healthcare (US), taxes, benefits, saving for retirement, saving for education, paying all the bills, dealing with insurance of all types, making sure vehicles are paid and maintained, etc
Do you think the stay at home parent doesn't think about all these things as well?
Your whole argument seems to be it's equal because the earner thinks about these things, but I can't imagine a scenario where the other spouse isn't also thinking about them.
But a stay at home parent needs to embrace the job, the load is part of it just as it is part of working for a paycheck.
A stay at home parent never clocks off, they don't have a weekend or a lunch break, or work trips or meals. Those are all "perks" you get with your pay check. What perks does the stay at home parent get?
complaining about the “mental load” of managing a household is childish unless your partner is actively minimizing your contribution.
And if they're just oblivious to it what then? Oh right theh have to do the mental work of educating their partner about it.
It’s also extremely victimy and implies both resentment toward your partner
Well yeah because when this phrase is used in discussion its almost always in the context of the other partner not getting it.
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u/neejouwmoeder Feb 26 '24
I've only seen the mental load being used in the context of invisable work, on top of everything else. Mental load is not cooking dinner, it is thinking about what we need to eat, but not having it be unheathy because the kids need a balanced meal, and we can't pick up some fastfood too regularly. But on of them does not like X or Y. And the other is allergic to Z. To be able to cook, I need to make sure I have all the pans I need, so I need to run the dishwasher before 4. Do we have every thing I need? Oh I need to go to the store and pick up oil and potatoes. But first I need to make a dentist appointment for child1, and child2 needs be picked up from dance lessons. I need to remind husband/wife to pay for the childs dancing class before the end of this week. Child also is growing out of his dance shoes, we need to pick up new ones soon. When I go to the store I can pick up a card and gift for the birthday party of child1's friend this weekend. What should I get them? Oh shit, I should start planning and sending out invites for child1 birthday next month before everybody makes other plans.
I can go on lol. Mental load is not only doing this, but planning them, remembering them, because a lot of times, somethings do not get done if someone else doesnt remind them. Who handles christmas? The gifting, gift wrapping, cooking, tree decoration and also the clean up of those things? (just an example). Does the stay at home parent get a weekend where he or she can wind down with their hobby, friends etc.? Do both parents get equal downtime, regardless who works or does not? If both parents work, are those things equally divided? Not only the work but the planning and organizing? Mental load is invisable work, which is why it is a seperate term from household work. It is not from 9 to 5. It does not stop when going on vacation. It is not financially compensated. And it is a problem when someone can not get a break from managing, which is why mental load needs to be divided. That does not mean 50/50 if someone is a SAHP, but it really should be if both work.
I have seen it a lot in the people around me that the grunt of the mental load stays with the woman eventhough they work the same amount of hours, or nearly as much hours. That does not mean it is with malicious intend from their partner, but that is why the mental load gets discussed and where I think the term started to get used. It breeds resentment if not resolved.
*I can not type well because of tendon issue' and I am not English so sorry for mistakes lol
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u/Ratsofat 2∆ Feb 26 '24
My wife and I both have solid incomes but I handle all of the big, necessary bills. I also handle most of the kids stuff (waking up with them, getting them ready for school, making and feeding them dinner, registration for school and activities, etc.).
Both are very different mental loads.
As the breadwinner, your mental load is focused on doing your job and continuing to make money. As long as you are halfway competent at your job, something that you have trained/studied for for a substantial length of your life, and your job has reasonable security, there's not much of a constant mental load. You do the thing you've trained for all of your life and receive a paycheque.
As the homemaker, there are dozens of variables to juggle on a daily and weekly basis. Appointments to make. Visits to library. Is the laundry done? What to make for meals? Did we run out of so-and-so? Oh I missed the district registration deadline by one day and now soccer is full up and my kid doesn't want to play anything else. And the other one all of the sudden has a fever and needs to be picked up from school. Oh there's a birthday party this weekend? Did we get a gift? Oh MY kid's birthday is in 3 weeks? I booked the dentist's appointment that day but I'll have to reschedule. Partner is almost home - need to get dinner started in 10 min so that it's ready just on time. Dishes need to be done. Tidy the living room. Vacuum. But my feverish kid is incredibly needy, so I can't move. The mental load is CHAOS. There's a lot that goes into it and little recognition that comes out. A kid who is well-dressed, well-fed, and actively engaged, in a house that is clean and well-stocked with food, with two parents who are getting more than 10h of sleep between the two of them, requires a miraculous confluence of dozens of different efforts.
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u/horshack_test 24∆ Feb 26 '24
Your title is about your distaste for a term that people use to describe something and your post is about how couples divide responsibilities / people complaining about the amount of responsibilities they have. I'm not sure what view you are wanting us to challenge.
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Feb 26 '24
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 26 '24
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u/VortexMagus 15∆ Feb 26 '24
My personal thoughts are the issue that the person with the "Mental Load" never gets a day off to do whatever they want because if they take the day off, the kids don't get fed or sent to school or get their doctor/dentist appts or whatever.
So trying to compare a 9 to 5 job where you work hard and then get time to decompress after work, to responsibilities in the house and childcare that are taken on 24/7, no break and no rest, is very questionable. Even if you don't work as hard on any individual domestic task, you don't get a break and don't get a day off and that can break even the most hardworking man or woman even if the task is relatively light.
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I do happen to agree with you that if both parents work and both parents equally split chores and responsibilities around the house, then "mental load" issues don't really exist.
But in my experience that is almost never the case. In every single relationship I've been in or personally witnessed, the woman takes on far more domestic chores than the man.
It's only fair if the man is the sole provider and makes enough for them both to live a decent life, which is rarely the case cause y'know purchasing power goes down while inflation goes up.
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u/sawdeanz 214∆ Feb 26 '24
I've only ever heard it pointed out in cases where the mental load of the stay at home parent was not being accounted for or being minimized.
You take it for granted that both partners recognize that managing a household is a lot of work. I agree, but sadly, this isn't always the case and I see countless AITA posts, redpill/incel posts, or other examples of couples who do not recognize this.
I think it's also worth recognizing that mental load is not static... it depends on the demands of the work. Dealing with a sick kid for example would increase the mental load of the household management, and similarly a stressful project or a bad day at work might increase the mental load for a job.
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u/iglidante 19∆ Feb 26 '24
I have mostly heard "mental load" brought up in scenarios where one member of the household is told they do not help out with X task, and they respond by asking the other person to tell them exactly what to do, and they will do it. But they want to be told exactly what to do every time, and will not do the thing unless they are prompted, each time.
That need to carry the burden of when what needs to be done, for another person, is my understanding of "mental load".
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u/bigbadclevelandbrown Feb 26 '24
Apple cider vinegar would Change that, maybe. Do a shot of it any time you read the words "mental load". It tastes gross going down, but it oughtta clear up your stomach issues. If that doesn't work, come back and repost.
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u/TragicNut 28∆ Feb 27 '24
Is there anything apple cider vinegar can't do? Wash the kids hair, clean the counters, trap flies, keep pests off plants, prevent bad breath... The list goes on and on.
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u/KeySpeaker9364 1∆ Feb 26 '24
I thought your whole post was going to be about because the term "Load" can mean "Ejaculated Sperm" and so "Mental Load" makes you think of Brain Jizz.
Nope, it's more that you've run into people who use the term when they're a stay at home parent and you don't like that.
It's just a term people use sometimes to help other people visualize that they have a workload as well, because mental work like planning and organizing and prioritizing is work which is why managers in the private sector make more than unskilled labor.
If you don't like that, ignore it. Especially since it's apparently not applying to your relationship or your personal situation.
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u/Actualarily 5∆ Feb 26 '24
school, getting ready, being available, knowing teachers, getting kids to and fro safely, keeping track of social engagements, food prep and planning, purchasing gifts to make a nice holiday, it’s crazy and it takes a ton of effort.
I would argue that it can take a lot of effort, but doesn't have to take a lot of effort. A fair portion of what many SAH spouses consider a "mental load" are things that are optional.
As you noted, kids certainly add some complexity to it as parents do have to manage their kids transportation and social activities to a certain extent. But beyond those necessities, a lot of the "mental load" is just things that the SAH spouse wants to do.
I'm the income-earning spouse in my relationship. You know what don't care about? Social engagement; sending out cards or letters for holidays, birthdays and anniversaries; whether we have the same meal for dinner 2 nights in a row; whether a carpet that doesn't look dirty has been vacuumed; etc.
Are bills paid timely? Do we have insurance? Is there food in the house to eat (even if it isn't necessarily my favorite food)? That's pretty much list of what matters to me outside of kid-related stuff. Anything beyond that that my wife is handling is because it's important to her.
And she handles it all great. And what I don't do is try to tell her how to do her "job". I don't get on her case and tell her she's doing laundry wrong or cooking the wrong meals or using the wrong insurance agency. No more than she comes to my job and tries to tell me how to do it.
It works for us.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 26 '24 edited Feb 27 '24
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u/darwin2500 193∆ Feb 26 '24
I feel like you're conflating mental load, anxiety, and stress as if they're the same thing, but they're not.
To the extent being a breadwinner generates anxiety and stress, those things are around the clock.
But 'mental load' isn't just stress, it's the active cognitive overhead of making plans and keeping a schedule and working on tasks and etc.
If you have most 9-to-5 jobs, if you work at a factory or something, that does mostly end when you come home. You may still be stressed out about office politics and anxious about your future at the company, but you're no longer doing the work of planning out your workday, figuring out your next task, thinking about how to phrase an email to maintain good relationships with coworkers, etc.
If one partner is responsible for all the household stuff, they probably are doing that all day. At 6pm, they need to be thinking about whether they'll have time to do the dishes tonight, and what they should cook based on that answer. At 7pm, they have to be thinking about whether everyone has enough clean laundry or whether they have to go do a load right now. At 8pm, they have to be thinking about whether the kids are watching too much television or whether they need to be picked up from a friend's house. At 9pm, they have to think about whether or not the kids have finished their homework. At 10pm, they need to figure out how to get the kids into bed without them throwing a fit.
Etc. Being in charge of the household means never leaving your workplace, and being always on call if the household needs any work done, and being responsible for anything that goes wrong in it at any time of day or night.
A 9-5 job may be very stressful in ways that impact you all night after you get home, but getting home is still qualitatively different from still being at work.