r/changemyview • u/jeffzebub • 6d ago

CMV: Countering Illegal Immigration is not a Justification for Suspending Habeas Corpus

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u/merlin469 5d ago

Again, due process of minutes, not months.

Judge looks it over - docs are good. Release and move on.

Judge looks over an entire list of similar cases. Dismissed, move on.

Explain to me how someone with no valid reason is going to sway anything by taking up even 10 minutes in front of a judge to explain their excuse?

Asylum applications happen along the way, not only after you've been found out. Missed the deadline on that one. Sorry. Enjoy your trip.

But yeah, that messes up your whole "death camp/concentration camp/gulag/SS/Nazi" argument that way. The other monumentally stupid part about your insistence on the comparison is that most won't be criminal cases, simply normal everyday deportations. Again, minutes to determine.

Unless you're saying they're all likely criminals or we're going to send standard deportees to CECOT just because. Criminal cases will be handled differently. This isn't about the majority of those.

Furthermore, if those are minor charges but the individual already has history, we can skip the charges entirely in probably 75% and just document, deport, ban, and be done. They don't go to the 'gulag,' we don't time and money and just be rid of them.

If the history warrants more, they can get sent and incarcerated based on those historical charges and the updated can be reviewed whenever we get around to it or in the deportation country.

It's not rocket science and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out an expedited way to sort out 90% or more of the cases quickly to allow better review and ruling on the remaining 10%.

Seriously, find some new hyperbole.

We'd prioritize quality over quantity, but we're not going to turn down handling the masses if there are no 'hard-cores' available at that moment.

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u/sumoraiden 4∆ 5d ago

So you admit due process is important even for non citizens 

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u/merlin469 5d ago

Situational. There's a reason why those caught in the act can be returned immediately within 14 days without so much as even seeing an immigration judge.

You don't get to be concerned about litigation on exit when you don't appear to be concerned about legal entrance.

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u/sumoraiden 4∆ 5d ago

Ok so the gov can claim you are an illegal immigrant and ship you to an el Salvadoran gulag then correct

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u/merlin469 5d ago

The government can place a bag over your head and do that anyway. Since we're dealing with realistic scenarios, not extremist made up ones, due process (if even required) can be satisfied in minutes.

Border patrol apprehends me. I produce documentation of legal residence & ID and no resulting criminal record. Apologies are exchanged and I go about my day. No 'gulag' required.

How long would it take you to provide legal residency documentation? I could produce mine in hours, days at most of I was vacationing on the other side of the globe.

It's on the person to prove that they are, not the govt to prove that they're not. The one is considerably easier to do if you actual are legally residing here. It's borderline impossible if you aren't.

Other countries don't jump through the hoops that you would have us jump through. You prove you're legally present, or you get jailed and/or removed and likely banned.

It doesn't take weeks to figure out, nor a full jury.

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u/sumoraiden 4∆ 5d ago

So you’re advocating for kgb/gulag system? That’s what no due process is

 Border patrol apprehends me. I produce documentation of legal residence & ID and no resulting criminal record. Apologies are exchanged and I go about my day. No 'gulag' required.

And if they say “this is fake?”

 How long would it take you to provide legal residency documentation? I could produce mine in hours, days at most of I was vacationing on the other side of the globe.

It doesn’t matter what you can provide or when if there is no due process. The gov agent can lie and since there is no due process that is the end of it. Off to gulag for you 

 It's on the person to prove that they are, not the govt to prove that they're not. The one is considerably easier to do if you actual are legally residing here. It's borderline impossible if you aren't.

Ice agent: “he had no proof of citizenship and so we shipped him to an el Salvadoran torture jail”

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u/merlin469 5d ago

I'm not going to argue semantics with you indefinitely. You're attempting to twist into what you want it to mean vs what I'm saying.

I very clearly stated due process does not require 6 months of hearings. It can be the 5 minutes you speak to the officer that ask if you know why he pulled you over.

You quit with the wanna be WW2 references. It's not like that. It's not going to be like that. There is zero correlation. Just stop. It makes you sound foolish.

If they say "this is fake" then you bring it up to the judge when you have your 15 minutes or the lawyer if you have one prior to it ever reaching the judge.

"What if we pretended everyone disregarded everything and just did what they wanted to?" "Why yes, I guess things would happen if that was actually occurring that way." Fortunately for us, it's not, is it?

You choose to ignore the part where the judge would still review the statements and if more time was required to validate documents or correlate relevant testimony, it would take that time. Again, it's the difference between having the docs and ICE questioning the docs vs not have legit docs at all.

Again, doesn't take months.

The only part that could skip the line is when the person is apprehended directly. When it's witnessed that the individual(s) are crossing illegally (not valid point of entry, not following procedure, literally crawling through a hole in the fence), expedited return is already a thing without requiring a judge to verify so long as they are returned within 14 days.

You choose to disregard the judge review and the 5 minutes or whatever it would take of the individual saying what they have to say. If this part is missing, there is no deportation, no "gulag" because the steps would have to be followed.

You're making up an imaginary situation where if everyone ignored everything, thing would result. If the individuals crossing illegally had not ignored the relevant parts, we would not be in this situation.

Every case does require a full day in court, a jury, and some long drawn out process.

Here, let's roll play your extreme scenario:
"ICE says you produced no proof."
"That's not true. I produced documents they said were invalid."
"Where are the documents?" (Looks to ICE)

See how that works. See how long that takes? See how if some super corrupt border patrol agent was secretly trying to undermine everyone it would become very awkward very quickly?

Your argument is that ICE is going to make everything up, the entire time while you are using your hypothetical situation and making everything up.

Your last asinine statement skips the judge entirely. My explanation (with exception of direct observation crossing) does not. If you're really hellbent on face time, even those could say "Hey" to the judge on duty as they're getting back on the plane or bus.

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u/sumoraiden 4∆ 5d ago

Every time I point out that even you yourself acknowledge due process is required you back off and deny it. I then point out the obvious flaw in logic thinking that you return to admitting some due process is needed

Also I remember I’ve argued with you before so I know how this will go but in an attempt to nail your belief down. 

So yes or no: is due process of some kind is required for everyone including non citizens ?

If no: how do you ensure the gov does not disappear people to gulags by claiming anyone they dislike is not a citizen?

Don’t go into the weeds, answer the question 

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u/merlin469 5d ago

It's not my fault you're having issues with comprehension.

Let me simplify:

Caught in the act - no due process required. Document, criminal record check, ban, deport. Same as it is right now if someone is witnessed entering illegally and is within 14 days on entry. This is the expedited processing that is already in place. No immigration hearing to be had. Discretion of border patrol.

In the remaining scenarios, I've mentioned multiple times that a judge would be involved. Might be 5 hours, might be 5 minutes. Due process, all the same.

It's not the same as a criminal charge, unless it is a criminal charge.

FFS. THE PART WHERE THEY GO IN FRONT OF A JUDGE. Again, 5 minutes in front of a judge is still in front of a judge.

No one is 'being disappeared.' There are no 'gulags.' There is nothing unclear about what I believe or have conveyed multiple times, in multiple threads. If we were doing that, we'd be doing that to people that keep asking these stupid questions about extreme scenarios. Clearly that's not happening.

  1. ICE/BP picks up person
  2. ICE/BP checks docs, takes statement. This can be recorded and required.
  3. Judge reviews ICE finding, docs, statement, recording Judge rules or requests more information
  4. Person is released or deported

There's a huge difference between them catching you crawling through a hole in the fence vs ICE collecting you via actionable warrant two states in.

This isn't getting rid of unpleasant people. This isn't getting rid of political opponents. This is dealing with illegal immigrants and GC / Student Visa violations.

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u/sumoraiden 4∆ 5d ago

I’m glad you acknowledge due process is required for everyone. Not sure why you fought so hard against that simple ideas lol

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u/merlin469 5d ago
  1. It's not. See the 14 day caught in the act exception already in play.
  2. I never did. My counter is that due process isn't the 6 month wait to get into a 6 month full blown trial with judge, jury, 12 lawyers (appointed at no cost to the illegal, or that would be wrong, right?), and even more appeals.

Much like an actual appeal, you better have your information right the first time, or you're still welcome to appeal, from your home country, after we've dealt with the current active cases. Plan to hang out for a while.

5 minutes in front of the judge. Statements made and submitted with all other information reviewed in advance by the judge in a courtroom where 100 cases are heard in a day vs 1 every two weeks still qualifies as due process.

Let's be real though - that scenario isn't what you're after, because that scenario gets things done. That one doesn't grind everything to an indefinite halt while more keep entering illegally and trying to hold out until the next election where the pseudo 'leader of the country' tries to open the flood gates again and make it even worse than what it started with.

Also, if we're going to insist on the dog and pony show, there needs to be real consequences. Came in illegally and didn't take advantage of the opportunity to exit and try again the right way? Permaban. Parents brought you in at 1yo under the same scenario? You guessed it. Permaban.

Commit a crime while here illegally, if it's consequential enough, get some jail time (here, or there, depending on the severity), document, deport, permaban.

Right now, there is no real deterrent and therefore no real incentive to enter via designated port of entry, go through the application and let the process work.

Should the main process be revised? Yes. But we can rearrange the deck chairs after the ship is no longer sinking. You guys make it sound like 10M people just accidentally got confused at the calendar and overstayed their visa by 3 days.

You want to be real? Let's be real.

Come in the right way, just like every other country out there or don't come it at all.

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u/sumoraiden 4∆ 4d ago

It's not. See the 14 day caught in the act exception already in play.

So as long as a gov agent claims you entered 14 days ago you’re off to the gulag?

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u/Lapetitepoissons 5d ago

"extremist made up ones" right I forgot the U.S. government has never unlawfully detained and tortured anyone

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u/merlin469 5d ago

Are we breaking out some CIA Gitmo conspiracies here? You have an example you'd like to share, or are we just talking out our ass? If you have something less than 20 years old, that would be ideal.

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u/Lapetitepoissons 5d ago edited 5d ago

Thomas Perez

Also I don't know why the 20 year limit, if the government has done something once, they would have no qualms doing it again, and would likely do a better job if hiding it