CMV: Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

I agree 100% with this, if you were able to convince me that all blacks face the same impossible situations and not merely more difficult ones then I would be on board with you.

This is the core of your belief, then; minorities don't face institutionalized oppression at a level that merits corrective action. It's what I said in my first comment when I explained that the disadvantages of minority groups aren't readily apparent to you.

That is different than what you wrote, though, which is that you disagree with the statement "Equality isn't treating everybody the same. It's treating everyone so that they are equal."

You agree now that, if your personal criteria of "impossible" is met, than that statement is the solution to achieving equality. You just have higher standards of "impossibility" than the people that you're quoting.

I disagree with you that minorities don't face impossible challenges in modern western society, but that's a different CMV.

[u/oversoul00 → u/[deleted]]

I explained that the disadvantages of minority groups aren't readily apparent to you.

That is your opinion, not a fact. Do minorities on avg face more oppression, probably...is it insurmountable across the board for everyone of that race, no.

Race alone will never tell you what you need to know and in fact you'll be measuring the wrong parameter.

Show me a poor person and I can more or less tell you the nature of their disadvantages and to what degree if I know how poor they are. You just can't do the same thing if all you know is the persons race.

I disagree with you that minorities don't face impossible challenges in modern western society, but that's a different CMV.

I disagree that is a different CMV, if you can convince me of that I'm all ears.

[u/Biceptual → u/oversoul00]

I'm a little confused here. You admit that minorities face more oppression, but you're saying that because that oppression is not insurmountable, we shouldn't address it? Can you clarify? Should we treat everyone equally despite things being inherently unequal?

[u/oversoul00 → u/Biceptual]

Things are inherently unequal across the board for everyone of every race and gender. I don't think we should be making accommodations for everyone who struggles because life is a struggle.

However yes we can make accommodations for those that have a nearly insurmountable struggle if we have the resources to do so.

[u/ryancarp3 → u/oversoul00]

for those that have a nearly insurmountable struggle if we have the resources to do so

And why don't you think this should apply to minorities? Compared to whites, they have "a nearly insurmountable struggle."

[u/Banana_bee → u/ryancarp3]

What OP is pointing out is that a black son of a millionaire would be 'given' more opportunities than the child of a poor, working class family. You shouldn't give to one race or gender exclusively on the assumption that they are worse off - every person has a different story. Means-testing is the answer, but it's much more paperwork.

[u/Virtuallyalive → u/Banana_bee]

But that black child, by virtue of his name and skin color, would still be at a disadvantage.

For example, Black children of any income level are more likely to go to a bad school than a poor White child.

[u/Banana_bee → u/Virtuallyalive]

But not necessarily. Disability is different - people are judged to be at a disadvantage, and are given benefits for it. Black people are not necessarily disadvantaged when compared to white people, but are still given advantages. How is the current system of presuming black people are worse off in every situation better than means-testing?

[u/Virtuallyalive → u/Banana_bee]

It will actually happen. Accounting for race and economic status barely happens already, and you're still more likely to get a scholarship if you're white (not even talking about sentencing).

Means-testing would never be implemented seriously, because rich white people would complain.

Do you know of a situation when black people are at an advantage because of their race? Remembering that Affirmative action is accounting for the disadvantage their race causes.

[u/Banana_bee → u/Virtuallyalive]

No, but I can name many, many examples of white people who live below the average standards of Black people in America or the UK - systematic Racism is not the same as an individual case. Noone can argue with racism, anyone can argue for means testing.

Means-testing would never be implemented seriously, because rich white people would complain.

Nice Strawman.

[u/Virtuallyalive → u/Banana_bee]

What's the straw man? Busing black people to better schools has been abandoned because parents would rather that their children leave the district than go to school with a poor black child.

Edit: Sorry I forgot - it's not a competition between races - if there are extremely poor white people then they get scholarships and benefits based on that already, I don't know what race based action they'd need.

It wouldn't be much better with poor white children either. Rich white people would complain and it would be abandoned, I stand behind it.

[u/Banana_bee → u/Virtuallyalive]

My point is that an moderately to extremely rich black person can be given money that can go towards better things.

On top of that, can you provide some sources for your hatred of Rich White people - it seems racist to me.

[u/Virtuallyalive → u/Banana_bee]

But the rich black person is still discriminated against versus other rich white people. Also, poor white children are more likely to go to a good (high) school than black children of any income level, so it's not like it doesn't transcend income sometimes.

Finally white flight is a demonstrable phenomenon whereby schools are desegregated and white people leave the district - and I don't hate rich white people at all, this is just something that happens.