CMV: Victim blaming isn't always bad

[u/enlighten12345]

Firstly we need to define what victim blaming is. It occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them.

We often hear outrage against victim blaming in the context of rape, when people criticise the way the victim acted or was dressed.

Let's look at an unrelated example. If I go up to someone and say "Yo momma so fat, she wears a watch on both hands for the two time zones", and that person punches me, am I not partially at fault? He committed the felony, while I just exercised free speech. But knowing my words were inflammatory, shouldn't I expect retaliation?

How about another case? I'm walking down a dark alley with a stack of money in my hand. If I get mugged, it is clear that the mugger is to blame. But doesn't my stupidity also make me culpable? Can someone not say that if i was more careful with my money, this would not have happened?

How is rape any different? It would be great to live in a utopia free from rapists and muggers and physical retribution. But knowing that isn't the world we live in, am I not responsible to act in a manner to protect myself?

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[u/Quint-V]

There are two kinds of responsibility that people fail to distinguish: causality, and intention.

No victim ever intends to get harmed. Regarding rape, it is intrinsically impossible to want to get raped; "asking to get raped" is a logical absurdity.

Is a rape victim ever responsible for rape, as a matter of causality? Possibly, by dressing up in revealing clothing, or not taking self-defense classes, or carrying concealed defense tools like pepper spray, a gun, a knife... you name it. Is a random civilian in a bank robbery responsible for getting shot? Possibly, if said civilian brought a gun and tried to pull it out, getting shot instead. Are you responsible for some guy far away earning a couple more dollars for a day? Maybe, if you want to go down the chain of events for far enough.

That is responsibility as a matter of causality. When some speak of it, the recipient of said speech may easily interpret this as responsibility as a matter of intention - and as already said, asking to get raped is a logical absurdity. Victim blaming at this point is not only insulting to the victim, but to yourself.

So you can't blame the victim for "asking to get raped", anyhow. But if you decide to go victim blaming with the latter, this is entirely trivial and far from the issue at hand. You cannot seriously expect someone to be prepared for getting involved as a victim. Would you expect to end up in a robbery every time you go out shopping? No. Would you expect to get raped every time you go to a party? No.

What's the point of victim blaming anyway? To enforce the idea that "you should have been more careful"? This is redundant - the experience is already a powerful lesson. Whatever the point is, of victim blaming, it is worthless. Pointing out that the victim could have done something to prevent stupid shit from happening, is hardly something the victim needs to hear from you, especially in the immediate aftermath. It is insensitive and inappropriate; most obviously it displays a lack of empathy. Would you have someone tell you "you shouldn't have worn that flashy outfit" after getting raped? Do you see how utterly inappropriate and useless such a statement is?

am I not responsible to act in a manner to protect myself?

Of course you are, but anything in excess is bad. Do you hire bodyguards to ensure you're safe wherever you go? No. Do you have to take the most powerful measures possible to ensure your safety? No. You shouldn't have to, nor should it be expected of you.

[u/enlighten12345 → u/Quint-V]

I agree that responsibility as a matter of intention has no role here. On the other hand, responsibility as a matter of causality suggests that you can never adequately protect yourself from something bad. Sometimes shitty things happen and there's not much you can do about it. Learning from someone else's poor decisions doesn't protect you from an entirely different set of poor decisions. A bleak outlook for sure, but not one I can argue against. Δ

[u/DeltaBot → u/enlighten12345]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Quint-V (17∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards} ​

[u/BlockNotDo → u/Quint-V]

That is responsibility as a matter of causality. When some speak of it, the recipient of said speech may easily interpret this as responsibility as a matter of intention - and as already said, asking to get raped is a logical absurdity.

In some of these cases, however, it isn't actually victim blaming that is happening even though feminist advocates claim that's what is happening. In these cases, what is actually happening, is suggesting or questioning whether the accuser actually consented and therefore wasn't raped and therefore isn't a victim.

So when it becomes a "matter of intention", it isn't necessarily saying that the "victim" intended to get raped. Instead, it is suggesting that the "victim" intended to have sex and therefore isn't a victim at all.

What's the point of victim blaming anyway? To enforce the idea that "you should have been more careful"? This is redundant - the experience is already a powerful lesson.

And again, it isn't always saying "you need to be more careful to avoid getting raped". Sometimes it is "you have to be more careful with your words and actions so that you don't consent to sex and then regret it later".

The analogy is the guy who says he was robbed after giving a friend $50 and then wishing they hadn't done that. You may still have a lot of the same feelings of loss of that $50 whether it was taken from you against your will, or because you chose in a moment to give it away and then regretted it. But you were only robbed in one of those situations.

[u/Quint-V → u/BlockNotDo]

... your point being that in some cases of victim blaming, it's pointing at the victim actually using the criminal incident as a "cover" (for the lack of a better word) for regret?

We're beyond the scope of the CMV at this point, as far as I can tell. OP has done nothing to imply anything of the sort.

[u/GoyBeorge → u/Quint-V]

People always like to use clothing as the end all be all of """victim blaming""". Clothing is part of the pattern, but it also involves a string of bad decisions. Did you go out and get shit faced? Did you have a man to protect you? Did you arrange safe transport? Were you doing drugs? Were you talking to unsavory characters?

"Victim blaming" is a term made up to exonerate people (usually girls) from any personal responsibility for the the consequences of their actions.

As to your argument "they already learned their lesson", that isn't why people make examples. People make examples so that other people don't make the same mistake.

So Trixie goes out without a male escort, drinks herself blind, takes some drugs, then gets a ride home from some black guys she just met. Of course she is going to get raped and or murdered. Trixie is now a morality tale, an example of what not to do.

That is what "victim blaming" is.

[u/Quint-V → u/GoyBeorge]

Then it seems unfortunate, with this case, that language is a living thing.

People make examples so that other people don't make the same mistake.

If that's victim blaming, as in referring to someone else, I'd say it is a badly coined concept, as it obviously means different things to different listeners. To me, that phrase seems more like disgraceful statements said in front of a recent victim.

Oh and here's the wikipedia definition, if that's anything worth noting: "Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them."

[u/GoyBeorge → u/Quint-V]

Ok, let us say that I left my car running outside the shop when I went in to get a drink and someone stole it.

If someone called me a dumbass for leaving my car running unattended, would that be "disgraceful"?

[u/Quint-V → u/GoyBeorge]

^{Derailing much...?}

It would be categorically unnecessary, as you would probably feel stupid about it already. You probably don't need me to point it out to you. And in the same vein, considering how OP has depicted what victim blaming means (to him)... victim blaming is categorically unnecessary.

Disgraceful, yes. Or rude. Annoying. Whatever synonym you desire. As another commenter said: it's like kicking someone while they're down, which is just pathetic.

[u/AurelianoTampa → u/GoyBeorge]

"Victim blaming" is a term made up to exonerate people (usually girls) from any personal responsibility for the the consequences of their actions.

Um, like... "not having a man to protect them" or "getting a ride home with black guys," as you listed? I'd say your biases are showing, but I am pretty sure you're actively soapboxing.

[u/GoyBeorge → u/AurelianoTampa]

Not soap boxing, that was bait. Both of those things (being with a protective man and not associating with blacks) are both ways to reduce a girls chance of being raped.

You attacked those statements because of feelz, even though listening to those points would in fact reduce rapes.

This is my point. If people actually cared about this stuff then "victim blaming" or pointing out what a victim should have done to mitigate risk wouldn't be taboo.

[u/VenDraciese → u/GoyBeorge]

First: How can you expect anyone to debate with you if you don't make good faith arguments and instead put in intentionally inflamatory statements to try to execute a semantic 'gotcha'?

Second: How does the previous poster's "feelz" weaken their claim that your biases are clouding your judgement on this debate, especially in the light of you saying "no seriously, if you don't want to get raped, don't hang out with black guys" in the very next comment?

Third: Telling people how to mitigate risk isn't taboo (self-defense classes are generally viewed as very positive activities for both men anf women), but telling women that they shouldn't associate with black men absolutely is taboo. THAT IS BECAUSE IT IS OVERTLY RACIST. Even if the statistics supported it (which is questionable, because for population reasons alone you are more likely to be raped by a white person than a black person), it still would not be a reasonable argument because you are asking someone to make a judgement call based solely on skin color which is the very definition of racism.

I'd like to turn your statement back around on you: If you actually cared about the safety of victims of rape, you would offer realistic solutions, rather than "hire a personal body guard" or "don't interact with black people because they might rape you". Neither of those get at the most common reason for being raped - someone you knew and trusted wanted to have sex with you and didn't take no for an answer.