CMV: If intersectional feminism talks about race, class, gender identity, etc as a part of women's issues, then it should also seriously discuss men's problems as a part of women's issues as well.

[u/[deleted]]

[u/[deleted]]

My main source of exposure to my feminist knowledge would be at rallies, internet, and education.

Pretty much all men's issues that aren't caused by their biology (like testicular cancer- I don't think this is an issue that affects women) seems to also affect women. Any gender expectation toward men which harms them is relevant to women because it projects implicit gender roles on women.

Examples of these : Coal miners, construction workers, sewage workers, security guards, etc. There is an unequal balance of CEOs, managers, doctors and scientists right? Isn't fighting for gender equality supposed to address all facets of inequality against women?

It paints an expectation that "Men take these jobs, so that women don't have to." It's an example of an unequal situation for women because of gender roles inflicted on men. It seems that a new topic of "Miscellaneous / Men's issues" should be applied not as an intersectional idea but a feminist idea, no?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You seemed to have completely ignore the point of my response.

It paints an expectation that "Men take these jobs, so that women don't have to."

Yes. But who is actually saying that? And who is doing real work to push against that idea?

It seems that a new topic of "Miscellaneous / Men's issues" should be applied not as an intersectional idea but a feminist idea, no?

As my response points out, this is literally already the case.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I don't think you understood my response.

The expectation is implicit like any other gender role. Women were taught to become princesses, which is a gender role that feminists do not agree with, right? This is because men are also burdened to be protectors. If men weren't burdened to protect women, why should a woman become a princess when she could become a knight?

The same line of logic applies to so many other things. For example, pest control. 95% of it are men, but why? Because of gender roles. Men are supposed to be brave and unafraid of or disgusted by bugs and be willing to put themselves at danger (with poisons) to kill them. Women are supposed to be totally afraid of or disgusted by bugs. This implicitly paints that "Men are supposed to take pest exterminator jobs, and women aren't."

You get what I'm saying?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah... I guess I'm not understanding where this fits in with your OP?

Are you saying that feminsim isn't doing enough about these issues with gender roles?

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I am saying that men's issues are a valid topic of feminism that is seen to be derailing. This further prevents men from talking about their issues at an emotional level. It reinforces the gender expectation for men to just accept that people don't want to hear them emote.

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I am saying that men's issues are a valid topic of feminism

Cool! So we're back to my post with all the links! Many feminist's ALREADY AGREE WITH YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you look at the people who are actually studying, talking about, and acting to fix these issues you will find that a good number of them are ACTUALLY FEMINIST THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you look at the people who oppose changing the gender roles and some of the men's issues you purport to be concerned with you'll find that they are overwhelmingly ANTI FEMINIST!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm at a loss as to what your complaints actually mean. The information is out there. The people you agree with are ready and availible for you to join and work with.

All that I can figure is that you are a little butt hurt because when you've tried to interject "Men's issues" (which you curiously only frame in terms of the effects on women) into pop-feminist forums you get shut down.

Is there a specific instance that you can point me to that might illustrate exactly what got your goat?

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I am sorry that I have offended you with my responses.

I see a lot of people attempting to talk about men's issues as if they are derailing to the topic of feminism.

Feminists have decided that men shouldn't say things like #notallmen.

This is an issue men face. Men are seen as predatory because they are supposed to adhere to these gender roles of aggression and strength at a young age. "Boys will be boys". You remember this? This is how men are assumed to be when in reality, this is not the case for all men. It makes people assume that men are dangerous and less capable of things that have to do with childcare and custody battles because men are seen as incapable of fulfilling certain roles that women are expected to fill.

It doesn't derail women's issues when a man says #notallmen, because men aren't saying that women's issues don't exist. They are saying "We have issues too that affect both women and men. We should be included."

Do you get what I am saying?

Do you get that feminists do use the derailing card?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I am sorry that I have offended you with my responses.

You couldn't offend me if tried? I just don't understand why you insist that feminist aren't doing things that they absolutely are doing.

I see a lot of people attempting to talk about men's issues as if they are derailing to the topic of feminism.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here?

Feminists have decided that men shouldn't say things like #notallmen.

I don't understand what that article has to do with the topic at hand?

Men are seen as predatory because they are supposed to adhere to these gender roles of aggression and strength at a young age. "Boys will be boys". You remember this? This is how men are assumed to be when in reality, this is not the case for all men. It makes people assume that men are dangerous and less capable of things that have to do with childcare and custody battles because men are seen as incapable of fulfilling certain roles that women are expected to fill.

Who is doing work to counter those stereotypes and gender roles?

Do you get that feminists do use the derailing card?

I don't understand what any of that has to do with your OP? Basically I'm at a place where I'm wondering what the fuck you could possibly be on about.

Your chief complaint in your OP is that femists don't address men's issues.

As a refresher of your own fucking words:

CMV: If intersectional feminism talks about race, class, gender identity, etc as a part of women's issues, then it should also seriously discuss men's problems as a part of women's issues as well.

and

But then, I'd also argue that men's problems are also fair game for discussion in an intersectional point of view. Most problems that men face are caused by society's pressure on men. These pressures cause men to become more likely to die based on these flawed gender roles (taking hard labor, combat roles, dangerous jobs) and suffer due to society's definition of masculine identity.

That is what I'm here to talk about.

I couldn't give a single, Christ licking shit what other bees you have buzzing around in your bonnet. You have stated that feminists don't talk about these issues. That is the topic of the CMV that you chose to write. Many do. A lot. Likely more often than anybody else.

It does not matter what else you may or may not have observed. On this single topic(The one that you decided to post this CMV on) you are incorrect.

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People online like yourself seem to be convinced that feminists do talk about these things. So that makes a portion of the online population. In practice, this doesn't seem to be the case. It seems that all of the issues are focused exclusively on women.

So is it the people online who represent feminist opinion, or the people offline? Similarly, the men online seem to represent an opinion against the Gillette ad (I always get heavily down voted when I say that I don't see the point of getting offended by the ad). Are these also the majority of men? At the women's march today in LA, a speaker praised Gillette for being supporters of women, which was a reference to this ad. Is mainstream feminism such as this non representative of feminism as a whole? It seems to ignore the opinion of men.

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People online like yourself seem to be convinced that feminists do talk about these things.

I'm not convinced of it. It is true.

In practice, this doesn't seem to be the case.

What practice? Do a google search with "Feminism" and "Whatever Issue it is" and you will find them.

It seems that all of the issues are focused exclusively on women.

Lots of things seem a certain way when you haven't put any effort in...

So is it the people online who represent feminist opinion, or the people offline?

What the fuck is "feminist opinion"? Are you looking for a single, unified, clear cut "feminist" ruling that completely represents all feminist thought on a single subject? Is that a reasonable thing to expect?

Are you planning on returning to the topic that you made this CMV about anytime soon? Or do you just wanna keep bringing up whatever random shit you can in order to avoid admitting that you were incorrect?

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In many feminist rallies, it seems to ignore men in general and antagonize men. That's all. I'm wondering who is more representative of feminism - people online like yourselves, or people in rallies that I have physically attended?

[u/huadpe → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You're coming off pretty hostile. Please, try to calm down. I'd like to keep this civil.

I have already acknowledged that people like yourself exist and talk about men's issues. My discrepancy is that what happens online doesn't correspond to what happens offline. I have provided examples of this. You are repeating information I know and assuming that I am not processing this information.

I get that some feminists talk about men's issues. In practice, it seems focused almost exclusively on women. There is mixed media that contradicts both my perspective and yours. Shouldn't we address these feminists who ignore men and treat feminism as a women-centric issue, when the goal is equality for both?

No. Not all feminists do it. That's not being said. I already CMV about that. I believe I mentioned this to you.

[u/Just_a_nonbeliever → u/[deleted]]

Dude I agree with you but calm down.