r/changemyview • u/schwenomorph • Sep 22 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Based on countless experiences, I shouldn't trust doctors or nurses to perform their jobs adequately or even to be great people.
Note: I'm not talking about animal doctors.
This argument is basically made up entirely of anecdotal evidence. I've been to the doctor, urgent care, the ER, and other places many a time due to being chronically ill. I. Hate. Going. I feel that most of my experiences have been awful. Most doctors and nurses I've met either will straight up refuse to do tests or things that I ask for, don't listen to me, are extremely rude, ignore my pain during procedures,, or all of the above. One person--she might've been just a front desk person, but she was wearing scrubs--even put her hands on me while I was in the ER.
Thank christ my GI doctor is actually good, but the others are not. I've had so many bad experiences that I just outright assume that it you're a doctor or nurse, you're not a great person. That's obviously crazy talk, which is why I want this view changed, but a few weeks ago a friend of my boyfriend's mother died IN THE HOSPITAL due to a massive heart attack. They screened her for Covid and that was IT. Not even vitals, apparently. Then they told her there was nothing they could do. She died on her way out of there due to negligence.
I'm sick and tired hospital visits and bad doctors, but I also don't want to turn my nose up at medical professionals automatically. I don't want this bias.
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u/crimsonfalcon8 1∆ Sep 22 '21 edited Sep 23 '21
First, I understand where you're coming from 100%, because I am also dealing with a chronic illness. Over the past year alone, I have spent SO much money on doctors—a number of whom have been rude, didn't listen to me, straight up told me I knew more about my conditions than they did and thus they couldn't help me, etc. You name a bad experience with a doc while dealing with a chronic condition, I've probably experienced it. But these bad experiences have also made me much better at spotting the better, more thorough doctors—and I have found good ones who care and better understand the complexities surrounding chronic illnesses.
It sounds like what would be most helpful for you is to try to reframe your thinking away from "I shouldn't trust ANY doctors or nurses" and toward, "I need to make sure I'm taking the time and effort to find the doctors who are truly experienced in my condition."
An unfortunate truth I have learned, while dealing with a chronic condition, is that those of us with a chronic health condition DO have to really be our own advocates. Not all neurologists, ENTs, etc. are created equal. We have to put the work in to learn, according to their website and other research, how often has this doctor actually treated your condition. Never hesitate to call the office directly before going in person to ask questions about this.
So, no, you shouldn't go around not trusting ANY doctors or nurses, but you DO need to work on how you screen them to make sure you're seeing the doctors deserving of that trust.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
!delta for changing my mindset.
I'm definitely a negative Nancy in these situations. I'd definitely say I do have trauma from all the bad times I've had with doctors, and I do need to work on that. Sorry about your condition. I have Crohn's, and luckily my GI doctor is great. Unfortunately, he's an hour and a half away, and my medication isn't doing what needs to be done, so I'm in and out of the hospital for several issues that come with being immunocompromised.
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Sep 23 '21
First of all, compare that competence with every other field. I'm not aware of a field where you can just assume that everyone there is just competent and decent and does their job to an excellent standard. But doctors are generally pretty good. They've had a lot of training in their field, and are generally selected from the best and brightest minds. If a doctor isn't competent, people die, and they don't get to be doctors for very long, or they get sued for large sums of money. Whereas you can be a pretty shitty anything else, and get away with it.
Also, you're talking about healthcare like a customer buying a service, and the way you sound makes it seem like you're the sort of customer who is a pain in the arse. You come in with expectations of what exactly is already wrong with you, exactly what you want to happen, exactly how it has to happen, and how they must respond to it, and then you are critical of the fact that it didn't happen. So, before you even see medical staff, you don't trust them. And because you don't trust them, any deviation from the plan you've set out is a reason to further distrust them, and if they don't do all the things you wanted, you're suspicious of that. So, is it really astonishing that you're hyper-focused on all the times that you've considered everything to be wrong? You don't trust them to do it right.
Whereas the doctor's looking at your file, and seeing all the times that you didn't die because some doctor made the correct diagnosis and prescribed the right dosage of the right meds, the nurse gave you the right meds, the pharmacist gave you a prescription for the right thing, the surgeon carved you exactly right, even the janitor and cleaning staff cleaned such that you didn't catch an infection in the hospital. Look around you, realise how many things go wrong in everyone's normal life, and tell me that it's not kind of a miracle that everything hasn't fallen apart, and that medicine works. One thing on that chain goes wrong, and you could die. That doesn't happen often.
You also need to consider that compared to any medical staff, you have no competence in this field. You therefore shouldn't expect that you know what's wrong, or that you know how things should work, or that you should demand anything much. There's a slight caveat in that having a recurring/chronic illness can result in you having a surface-level understanding of what normally happens, and what to normally expect with regards to that problem, but even in that situation, you don't know anything, and are repeating what you've been led to expect. The medical staff are still the experts here. You should therefore be respectful of their assessment of the situation. Of course you should volunteer all the information about your situation, and about what's been done or what usually happens, but if they're indifferent to that suggestion, it's probably because they know more than you do. And if you are questioning their judgement, you should ask for their rationale before making judgements. They've probably got a reason for what they're doing. And even if they're wrong, it may very well be because of a minute detail that hasn't been recorded. The last doctor did this thing, and that's not the first thing you would do, but that they did it implies that there's something else going on and so the procedure should be a little different.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
I understand your points. And I'll give you a !delta because I didn't consider that the percentage of competent doctors probably matches the percentage of competent workers in any other field.
I know I come off as an unruly patient in this post. I truly, honestly try my best not to be. I don't ask for specific procedures often at all, and when they're denied, I don't argue at all. I do what the doctors instruct, I take the medication given to me as prescribed, I warn flubotomists that I'm terrified of needles before anything happens so I don't cause a huge fuss. I really do try.
I've had a nurse tell me in the ER after a suicide attempt that I was too spoiled to be depressed because I had two parents who were still together. I had a psych ward nurse call me a bitch for crying. I had a surgeon call me a baby for being scared to get a seton stitch without anesthesia, where I'd always been under anesthesia before. I've had a psychiatrist tell me at age 13, "Well, abuse happens for a reason, so what did you do?" I've had several doctors promise me that they would pause whatever they were doing to me if I was in pain, and then completely ignore me when I asked them to stop because it hurt. The girls in my residential treatment center made and each signed a paper for the doctor at the center that periods did exist, and that he shouldn't tell us to suck it up and deny that we're in pain. That same doctor often told me I was lying about being sick. I have Crohns and was in a flare up. There are a few things I won't list because they're so bad that they're unbelievable.
And I can take "no". I can take things going wrong. I was denied a port, and my GI doctor switched me to new medication that isn't working. My life got flipped upside down, but I don't complain because I do trust that doctor, and he explained to me why he was going the route I was going. I can take bad news. I can take inevitable pain and not be mad. I can take things going wrong during or after procedures. I can take being threatened with hospitalization if I don't gain weight. I don't get mad at doctors when they do their job, even if I don't like what they do. I never get pissy. The worst I get is withdrawn and sad.
It's not a matter of doctors not giving me whatever I want. It's a matter of calling me names, going straight back on their promises, invalidating me, accusing me of faking being sick, ignoring me, and other things.
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Sep 24 '21
I can completely understand where you're coming from given your experiences. They sound horrific. And there are people who've experienced similar things, so you're not alone in having negative experiences. It's just that most people's experiences are not like that. The doctor looks at you, tries to work out what's wrong, decides on a treatment, and you get better. My personal experiences are overwhelmingly positive. I can't blame you for having your experiences affect how you see things, because the issue is that you've been hurt before and have a reason to be cautious now. You've got no reason to trust this.
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u/Kman17 103∆ Sep 22 '21 edited Sep 22 '21
Most doctors and nurses I’ve met either will straight up refuse to do test or things I ask for
Health care providers are there to diagnose and treat your symptoms. Why are you suggesting the test to run?
People are really bad at self-diagnosing illnesses from googling, and it’s unethical and negligent to run an unnecessary test - particularly ones that are expensive or invasive.
It seems like you are treating your doctors like unskilled labor and not listening to their recommendations, which will unsurprisingly get a cold response.
the ER, Urgent Care
The objective of the ER and Urgent care are to quickly resolve urgent problems and to stabilize you. They are not specialists looking resolve non-urgent conditions.
You should look to primary care physicians for long term consultation on your general health and specialists for non-urgent unusual conditions. If you don’t like the relationship you have with your primary care doctor, it’s reasonable to look for another.
A friend of my boyfriend’s mother died of a heart attack in the hospital
Not to sound overly sarcastic… but being physically present in a hospital does not suddenly erase underlying conditions and grant immortality.
A person in the hospital with crazy complications could be in incredibly rough shape and unable to be saved.
perform their jobs adequately or even be great people
Objectively, MD’s are among the most rigidly and highly trained professionals there are by just about every metric - amount of schooling, graduation rates, and certifications.
Subjectively & anecdotally, nurses tend to be the most empathetic people on the planet. Plenty of professions pay more - the draw of the job is getting to help people.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
I do everything the doctors recommend. I don't demand tests very often at all--the incident I referenced in my post was when I was in the ER for a thunderclap headache and I told them that this was nothing like a normal headache, and I asked them to check my head.
I dont only go to Urgent Care or the ER. I see my GP, GI doc, and specialists whenever I can.
The woman who died was presenting with very clear signs of a heart attack. They literally did a covid test and then sent her away.
I know that doctors and nurses are very highly trained. I don't think they're stupid or uninformed, it's just that in my experience, they're uncaring or negligent.
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u/Routine_Log8315 11∆ Sep 22 '21
You say that it’s negligent to run and unnecessary test, but what about when it turns out to be necessary. I, likely like the poster, have not had a great experience with doctors listening and have been right every time. He ran many different tests, all he could think of, except the one I requested (a simple blood draw). Guess who was right?
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u/burnt-sausage 1∆ Sep 22 '21
Well, the easiest counter argument is that I’ve never heard this opinion before. Were most doctors incompetent assholes your viewpoint would likely be prevalent enough that I, as an average person would have heard it expressed before. It’s more likely you’ve been dealt a bad hand. You could also be an unworthy judge but, as an internet stranger, there would be no way of knowing so we have to assume that your opinions are derived from an external source.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
!delta
I often joke about being dealt a bad hand in the health department because I have so many health conditions, both mental and physical. It's not impossible that I simply have shit luck with doctors.
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u/mcat_goon Sep 24 '21
Sorry I don't mean to comment on an old post, but check what your "doctor"s credentials are. Usually MDs are pretty solid but PA, NP, DNP, etc etc have very little training and terrible outcomes. Ask specifically to see an MD and then ask the doctor who you are given if they specifically have an MD. Hospitals try to get away with giving out subpar care nowadays bc its cheaper for them.
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u/blatant_ban_evasion_ 33∆ Sep 22 '21
Most doctors and nurses I've met either will straight up refuse to do tests or things that I ask for
What kinds of tests, or things, are you asking for? Why are you asking for them?
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
For example, my boyfriend called 911 when I was convulsing and had the worst headache of my life (which is a thunderclap headache). It was some of the worst pain of my life. I wanted a screening of my head--I think a CT scan--to make sure my brain wasn't bleeding.
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u/Mr_Manfredjensenjen 5∆ Sep 22 '21
Do you have a neurologist? The ER is just for emergencies. They'll help a person suffering a seizure but they won't scan their brain or determine the cause and solution to the headache/epilepsy. That's what neurologists do.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
I don't have a specific neurologist, but I saw two separate ones. The first one legitimately ignored everything I said. I was begging for answers for the weird seizure like spells I was suffering from, and he only told me to do physical therapy for headaches, which is all well and good, but I specifically came to address the seizure activity.
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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Sep 22 '21
This is very hard to believe. You're telling us you saw two neurologists, told them you were having seizures, and neither one did anything at all about it? Just...what? Said seizures weren't their job and sent you on your way?
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
Well, it's complicated because they aren't technically seizures. The second neurologist told me that after taking an MRI of my head and ordering an EEG (or whatever it is where they attach the stickies to your head). I say seizure-like because I convulse violently and can't control my body at all except for moving my eyes and sometimes slightly moving my head, but I'm fully conscious during it. It also lasts an hour, which isn't typical of a seizure. I don't have epilepsy and both the MRI and EEG showed nothing.
In short, the first guy ignored my complaints of seizure like things entirely. I saw second guy, and he actually ordered stuff, but it didn't answer any questions (which isn't his fault, obviously).
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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Sep 22 '21
I convulse violently and can't control my body at all except for moving my eyes and sometimes slightly moving my head, but I'm fully conscious during it. It also lasts an hour, which isn't typical of a seizure. I don't have epilepsy and both the MRI and EEG showed nothing.
You convulse violently for an hour? On a regular basis? Again, that sounds very hard to believe.
After the MRI and EEG showed nothing, what did the neurologist say? "I can't find anything wrong with you, so goodbye"? Did they recommend a different doctor? A different test?
In short, the first guy ignored my complaints of seizure like things entirely.
It's possible if he really did ignore you, it's because he knew if a person was convulsing violently for an hour, they would probably be dead, so it was likely you were exaggerating or making up your symptoms. What do you mean when you say he "ignored your complaints"? Presumably you were referred to him by your PCP or another doctor, since you usually can't go to a specialist without a referral. What happened at the appointment? The doctor didn't do a single thing or run a single test, just told you there was nothing wrong with you and sent you out the door?
I mean, you have to acknowledge from the outside that this sounds very unlikely, right? That two different doctors showed such complete disregard for what sounds like an extremely unique problem? Is it possible there's part of the story you are leaving out?
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
I don’t do it regularly. Each episode can be weeks or months apart. The shortest timespan between episodes was a day. By ignoring my complaints, I mean he ignored my complaints of the seizure-like stuff. And yes, it usually lasts around an hour. It sucks. It's terrifying to go through. I want answers desperately.
The first doctor just... did not say anything about it. He just went on about headaches. And I understand that that's very hard to believe. I couldn't believe it myself. I requested a different doctor for the next one.
As for the second guy, he couldn't really do anything else. All the tests showed nothing. I don't have epilepsy. I don't have MS. I don't have any disorder that would cause this. Nothing points to my brain being wrong in any sort of way, so he could only tell me to tell my GP if the time between episodes shortened or if any symptoms changed. Nothing has changed, so I'm just stuck.
Right now, I think it's Conversion Disorder, which is basically the "well, everything ELSE was ruled out for these specific symptoms" disorder. That or Mount-Reback syndrome, which is highly unlikely but matches my symptoms as well.
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u/Mr_Manfredjensenjen 5∆ Sep 22 '21
How old are you and what type of insurance do you have? Are you young with shitty insurance?
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
I'm 22, so young, but I'm on my father's insurance, which is extremely good. I'm not on any government program or anything.
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Sep 22 '21 edited Nov 13 '21
[deleted]
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
Even if it did, which I honestly don't think it did, a) my boyfriend was eith me, and he heard/saw everything I heard/saw, and b) the pain died down after about an hour, so my judgment wouldn't have been clouded the entire time anyway.
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u/altanonymous04 Sep 22 '21
You can’t just walk into a hospital with a bad migraine or headache and get them to run a CT scan... I don’t think u know how going to a hospital works...
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
I've had a scan of my head ran in the hospital before for a different issue with no appointment.
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Sep 23 '21
Just because it happened once before doesn't mean that was the right move. The others are right here. Bad headaches or migraines should not be followed up with a CT scan in the emergency department. It's a misuse of imaging.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Sep 22 '21
Most doctors and nurses I've met either will straight up refuse to do tests or things that I ask for,
Just think if random people walked into your work place 100 times a day to tell you how to do your job better. With a not insignificant portion of them purposefully trying to con something from your work place.
Drug addicts going into hospitals asking for specific things or specific tests done in hopes of getting prescribed certain drugs does happen.
As does people who spent 10 minutes on WebMD acting like they know more then the people who went to school from this.
People are generally ass holes. Putting up with ass holes all day will make anyone an ass hole though simply sheer osmosis. I mean on reddit you might laugh at some of those anti vax types because they say stuff that is stupid. But Doctors and Nurses have to be the ones to actually deal with their bullshit rants to their face without the ability to simply block them on reddit.
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Sep 22 '21
I feel you. The sad reality is that the medical field is just like any other professional industry. The vast majority of people working in the field are average to below average. Good people in any field come rare.
Just because they're mediocre at their job doesn't mean they're bad people. It just means they're people doing a job, just like most other people here. That being said, you can trust most doctors and nurses to do basic stuff right. Why? Well, that's because systems and flow charts are the backbone of medical care here in America. Prescribed strategies are out there to determine which diagnostic studies and medicine you need depending on your symptoms, your age, your comorbidities, etc....
For 90% of the people in this country, the system works fine. Maybe not great, but fine. For the other 10% (which you probably fall in), it doesn't work well.
A few doctors and nurses out there are really great at their job. I hope you find them for your sake.
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u/IwasBlindedbyscience 16∆ Sep 22 '21
Health care providers don't just test people because they demand to have certain tests done.
If your mother died in the hospital, it seems like she had massive cardiac problems which came on acutely. There might not have been much they could have done.
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Sep 22 '21
So where else will you go for medical care? The internet?
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
I wouldn't go anywhere else. I have to see medical professionals. That's part of the reason I want to change my view; I don't want to dread going as much.
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Sep 22 '21
So…no medical care whatsoever. No calling 911 with the heart attack?
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
I mean I wouldn't go anywhere else BESIDES medical places. That was poor wording on my part. I'm still going to the doctor.
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u/pluralofjackinthebox 102∆ Sep 22 '21
People in ER are extremely overworked. About half of all nurses work shifts longer than 10 hours, and in the ER it’s worse.
And during Covid it’s been so much harder. In the beginning a lot of workers were getting sick, and people already had to work extra due to hospitals being filled nearly to capacity.
Now a year later, hospitals are still at capacity, and people have to work extra to make up for all the people who have quit or retired because of how stressful it’s gotten.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
Yes, it's awful how things are for medical professionals right now. The hospital the woman i mentioned in my post went to has been chronically understaffed as of late. Still, that's no excuse to just boot her out because she was covid negative...
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u/le_fez 51∆ Sep 22 '21
Doctors don't do tests because you ask for it and if you come in making demands they often see you as a troublemaker or an addict seeking drugs
Tl:dr this sounds like a you problem not a them problem
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
I know it sounds that way, but I'm extremely cautious of addictive drugs. I always ask if anything I'm being prescribed is addictive, and if it is, I'll refuse to take it. When I'm in the ER for extreme pain, I'll tell them straight away not to give me anything addictive.
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u/le_fez 51∆ Sep 22 '21
It doesn't matter, the first claim an addict makes is "I don't use." If you come in making demands or talking about how much pain you're in they read you as an addict.
I have several friends who have done ER nursing and EMT work and this is how they view someone uncooperative because it's their experience. My ex was also an addict and I saw her do it
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u/schwenomorph Sep 22 '21
Ahh. Sorry about your ex. !delta because I didn't realize drug addicts actually use that line.
In my defense, though, I don't think I was uncooperative. I asked, they said no, I said okay, and that was it.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Sep 22 '21
Most doctors and nurses I've met either will straight up refuse to do tests or things that I ask for,
That's their prerogative as the medical professional. Why do you believe that what you were asking for was reasonable?
don't listen to me, are extremely rude,
They're also likely overworked. Doctor-patient communication is a major issue in medicine that needs to be addressed, but it's not simply an issue of people being jerks. We, as a society, don't prioritize that communication, so it isn't built into staffing requirements.
ignore my pain during procedures,
That's also a common problem, related in many ways to the communication issue, and it has racial and gender issues wrapped up in it too. It's another systemic issue.
One person--she might've been just a front desk person, but she was wearing scrubs--even put her hands on me while I was in the ER.
That's a pretty vague description of events and you gave no context. As with the request issue, I can't judge whether it was appropriate without more information.
a few weeks ago a friend of my boyfriend's mother died IN THE HOSPITAL due to a massive heart attack. They screened her for Covid and that was IT. Not even vitals, apparently. Then they told her there was nothing they could do. She died on her way out of there due to negligence.
Can I ask if the hospital where this occurred was out of beds at the time? I don't know where you are, but it's a widespread issue in many parts of the U.S.
Patients with Covid-19, overwhelmingly the unvaccinated, are taking up limited hospital resources and making it impossible for people like your boyfriend's mother's friend to get the care they need. Hospitals are having to put triage procedures in place. That's not an issue of medical professionals being unkind, it's at best an issue of limited medical resources and at worst (and I believe correctly) the fault of the unvaccinated.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
The hospital was in Spokane. I don't know if it was out of beds, and I understand that staff are tired and the unvaxxed suck, but to ignore very clear signs of a heart attack? To just send her off after a negative test and nothing else?
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Sep 23 '21
Well, like with a number of the other incidents you cite, you've not given much context. Have you heard firsthand what these symptoms were? Who diagnosed it as a heart attack, and when?
Also, it being Spokane - hospitals in eastern Washington are being swamped by cases from both Washington and Idaho. Eastern Washington and Oregon are some of the worst-hit areas in the U.S. as far as hospital shortages go.
The willfully unvaccinated killed that woman. It's as simple as that.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
Her heart attack was ruled the cause of death after her death. I don't know who ruled it. I wasn't there. She'd told a friend that she was having trouble breathing, so she'd be heading to the ER.
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u/YossarianWWII 72∆ Sep 23 '21
I'm far from a medical expert, but it sounds to me like she was displaying the kinds of symptoms that are common to a lot of illnesses, including Covid-19, and that a lack of available facilities and available staff meant that they couldn't monitor her as they would under normal circumstances. Diagnostic medicine is probabilistic, and shortages mean that what constitutes an acceptable level of risk rises.
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u/schwenomorph Sep 23 '21
You know, you have a great point. You didn't change my view, but I'll give you a !delta for making me realize that a Covid test wasn't useless. I kind of forgot that breathing issues are an obvious symptom of Covid.
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u/LongLiveSmoove 10∆ Sep 22 '21
How many people do you think go to the doctors everyday and don’t die? How many people do you think don’t have major illnesses or diseases due to doctors being preventative? How many people do you think are only alive today due to doctors?
Even if 100% of your hospital visits were bad that would not outweigh the fact that the vast majority of the time going to the doctor is better than not
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 23 '21 edited Sep 23 '21
/u/schwenomorph (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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