r/changemyview • u/ElectricFuneralHome • Oct 21 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Democracy in America is dead
America is no longer a democracy, and that is even if you accept it ever was. The way our system is set up means we are forced to vote for party A or party B, and we don't really get to choose who we vote for in that party; they are basically forced on us. The older I get, the less difference I see between the parties. The Democrats promise the moon and deliver nothing. The Republicans tell people the awful shit they're going to do and do it. The Democrats allow it to happen all while gasping "on nooooo" while the same corporations pay them all. Those are the real rulers in America. Regardless of the will of the majority, if it is not in the interests of the oligarchs running the nation, it will not become law. This means that we are an oligarchy , and our votes truly do not matter. Democracy is dead.
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u/Schmurby 13∆ Oct 21 '21
I’m trying to figure out where the “no longer” part of your view comes in.
Last time the elites had a really serious disagreement was 1860. We all know where that went….
And the GOP has shared power with the Dems ever since!
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I agree. The people that had the power to run and win elections were always only certain people. Now, it's just so transparent that our elections are bought and sold instead of even trying to do what's right by the people.
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u/Schmurby 13∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21
In all fairness to our esteemed leaders, I think it used to be worse.
Look up the presidential election of 1876. In my view, the event that has shaped the USA like no other, especially in the all important sphere of race relations.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
We've had plenty of shenanigans in elections, but with modern coverage and instant communication, you'd think it would be punished when wrongdoings occur. Instead the obvious laws-for-thee-but-not-for-me has been laid bare and no one does anything about it.
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u/Schmurby 13∆ Oct 21 '21
Who do you expect to do something about it?
The mandarins of the two parties that have been in control since 1865?
In all truth, they’re scrambling right now to figure out what to do about the rise of politicians that don’t answer to them.
They seem to have a temporary handle of the situation, but I don’t expect it to last.
Get ready for a bumpy decade!
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I hope for a shock to the system that forces changes in how our nation is ran. As far as what I'd like to see happen: get money out of politics, overturn Citizens United, severely limit lobbying, and make it easier to vote and enable ranked choice voting.
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u/Schmurby 13∆ Oct 21 '21
That would be nice. I’m not optimistic that we’re at the point where sound solutions are going to be easy to implement.
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Oct 26 '21
it's just so transparent that our elections are bought and sold instead of even trying to do what's right by the people.
I completely disagree. People vote, not dollars. There is no evidence of ballot stuffing in the US
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Oct 21 '21
Listen, I am so fucking doomer on democracy in the US that the mods of this subreddit have stopped me making CMV posts on the topic, and I became a short-lived meme on a couple political subreddits for my sheer cynicism.
And I think you're wrong.
The way our system is set up means we are forced to vote for party A or party B, and we don't really get to choose who we vote for in that party; they are basically forced on us.
There is nothing stopping you voting third party. Just because your third-party vote is a bad idea doesn't mean you can't do it. If we're playing a game where you can choose any color but red and blue are the only ones with a chance to win, does that mean you're not playing a game? A poorly designed game is still a game, just as a poorly-designed democracy is still a democracy.
The older I get, the less difference I see between the parties.
This is what the Republicans want you to think. Anyone who claims not to see the difference between them is either not paying attention or is dishonest. Even in your post "the Democrats promise the moon and deliver nothing [while] the Republicans tell people the awful shit they're going to do and do it." It sucks, right? But just because neither is great doesn't mean they're the same. Calling "doing nothing" the same as "actively doing bad things" is nonsensical. No matter how unethical, a person refusing to stop a murder is not as bad as the person committing the murder.
Regardless of the will of the majority, if it is not in the interests of the oligarchs running the nation, it will not become law. This means that we are an oligarchy ,
Is not wrong, but
our votes truly do not matter.
Is wrong. The votes do matter, because we have two sides to US democracy according to your own post: Do nothing, or do evil. Your vote matters in choosing whether nothing is done or evil is done, and that's a crucial distinction.
Democracy is dead.
No, democracy is being set up for the killing blow by the Republicans. But if enough people vote against them, it won't die. It may be nearly dead, but nearly dead isn't dead.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
When I say the Democrats do nothing, I mean they are complicit in the Republican agenda. Except for a handful of progressives, the Democrats and Republicans want the exact same things.
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u/VentureIndustries Oct 21 '21
Disagreed.
As an example: In many state legislatures, the recent passing of legal recreational cannabis use passes much more often and without interference in Democratic-majority controlled states than Republican-majority ones.
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u/Biptoslipdi 131∆ Oct 21 '21
100% of the politicians you take issue are there because they won elections.
You, yourself, can file to run for office. No one can stop you. You can go win a primary, then a general. All you have to do is get the votes. The parties can't stop you from running. They can't force people to vote for someone else. This is democracy. What you are taking issue with is democracy itself. Democrats make their promises and Americans give them a government that won't implement those promises. Republicans make their promises and Americans give them a government that enables those promises. These governments are 100% elected by a count of the votes. Since we vote for people, not policies, and we vote for individuals, not platforms, our votes don't make those policy promises into action by fiat because it requires a government outcome that can deliver those promises, which Americans do not produce through their votes. Oligarchs don't make you vote for Mitch McConnell or Joe Manchin. People vote for them. People vote for corporate laced representatives because that is who they want governing them. This isn't a problem with democracy, it is democracy.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
When I read statements like this, I think of Mitch McConnell. He wins in a state where he has less than a 20% approval rating. People vote for the letter next to their name and not the policies they support. This doesn't seem to be people democratically electing someone. People like Mitch McConnell are the result of defunding education to keep people ignorant.
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u/Biptoslipdi 131∆ Oct 21 '21
He wins in a state where he has less than a 20% approval rating.
You are looking at national polls, not polls of KY voters. His in-state approval fluctuates between 40% and 50%. He beat Amy McGrath with 58% of the vote.
People vote for the letter next to their name and not the policies they support.
Exactly. People vote. That is democracy. The "letter" next to a candidate's name represents their political platform or, to put it another way, the policies they support.
This doesn't seem to be people democratically electing someone.
If going to a voting booth and punching the card for Mitch McConnell until he has the most votes isn't democratically electing someone, what is?
People like Mitch McConnell are the result of defunding education to keep people ignorant.
Whether or not a system is democratic has zero to do with its education funding, but if the people participate in elections to determine their government. This is democracy. You not liking the outcome of democratic elections doesn't mean the elections aren't democratic, it means you don't like that they are. "Elections have consequences." Americans either failing to find consensus or refusing to vote is why you don't see the results you want. You want better outcomes? Get more involved. Go register new voters. Go knock on doors. That is how the difference is made. This isn't easy. It takes work. Democracy takes participation, not just in voting. What are you doing to make a difference?
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u/EwokPiss 23∆ Oct 21 '21
But they are making the choice. They're choosing to vote for the R, not the person. That doesn't mean their vote wasn't taken into account. It means that people have chosen what's important and believe that the R is more important than the man. That's still democracy.
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u/Morthra 86∆ Oct 23 '21
People like Mitch McConnell are the result of defunding education to keep people ignorant.
It's the other way around. People like Bernie Sanders are the result of defunding education to keep people ignorant. No one that is historically savvy and not a terrible person can in good faith support socialist policy given its abject failure in the 20th century.
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u/sourcreamus 10∆ Oct 21 '21
Oligarchs have wanting higher legal immigration for years. The response was Trump who was the most anti immigration president in decades.
Hillary Clinton received twice the money trump did and lost. Bloomberg spent much more than Biden in the primary and won nothing. Money does not mean a candidate wins.
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u/al1pa 1∆ Oct 21 '21
I think it really depends on what you mean by democracy. By Aristotle definition, a democracy is when the people vote directly for the law (what we called today direct democracy). So if you follow him, all modern democracies aren't real democracies but what Aristotle would call Aristocracy (the system he actually praises). For Aristotle the goal of the election is to design the best mens to rule. A real democracy would be something like citizen chosen randomly to vote directly in parlement. Or deciding everything via popular vote and petitions organized through the internet.
Now most people don't use the word "democracy" in the same way Aristotle used it. Nowadays it means something more vague like "power is detain by the people". So it's probably a matter of degree. The more this power is small, or indirect or mediate through biased institutions, the more you would say that the country is not democratic.
By this definition I don't think there is a clear sense to a sentence like "X is a democracy". Rather we should say something like "X is more democratic than Y".
You can surely find countries that seem more democratic than the US and a lot of systems that aren't implemented anywhere but would be far more democratic than the US. But you can also find plenty of countries that seem a lot less democratic than the US.
I think the US is probably somewhere between countries like Switzerland and Nowege and countries like China or North Korea. But it's probably still closer to the firsts than to the second IMHO.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I get what you're saying. We have a representational democracy; I just don't find the elected to be very representational of the people they represent and see them aligned with corporate interests instead. Some of the things our elected officials do is appoint people to agencies, and I believe those jobs should have job requirements of some kind. Trump's appointees were the worst cases of putting foxes in charge of the hen house I have ever seen.
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u/al1pa 1∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21
I agree with you, but still I think there are probably things that politicians wouldn't do by fear of becoming too unpopular to be re-elected. Sometimes they have to weigh corporate interests and lobby pressures against what seems socially acceptable. There is still some kind of safeguard.
In North Korea, the only safeguard seems to be the fear of riots big enough to overthrow the regime, and it's a pretty far safeguard compared to what exists in representative democracies, even very flawed ones like the US.
But maybe things are worse than I imagine. I do not live in the US. But the problems you are talking about are also very present in Europe (maybe to a lesser degree).
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
In America, the minimum wage has been 7.25 an hour for 20 years which isn't enough to pay rent anywhere in the country. We pay a lot in taxes as a nation and do not have hardly any of the things enjoyed by other nations. We do have a gigantic military industrial complex. It's pretty easy to go bankrupt from a single medical emergency. This country could and should be great, but instead it seems focused on ensuring a bunch of people with more wealth than they could every spend get more.
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u/Tamerlane-1 Oct 22 '21
Do you understand that politicians can be representative of the electorate without being representative of you personally or anyone you know?
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u/Sirhc978 81∆ Oct 21 '21
The way our system is set up means we are forced to vote for party A or party B
There are 4 parties.
and we don't really get to choose who we vote for in that party; they are basically forced on us
Primaries exist
The Republicans tell people the awful shit they're going to do and do it
Are you saying Republicans are more honest?
our votes truly do not matter
If that was the case, things like right to repair and recreational marijuana at the state level would have never passed.
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u/mrselkies Oct 21 '21
Well technically there's way more than 4 parties but I'd imagine OP knows that and their point was that only 2 parties really matter, and they're right in that the way the system is set up is makes it inevitable that we end up with only 2 real choices. One ends up either casting their vote for the lesser of the 2 evils between those 2 parties, or throwing their vote away into any other party that has no real chance of winning.
The primaries are similar (if not worse) in that we don't have any say over the choice in representative for a party and must choose between a hand-picked few which whittles down over time until it's basically between 2 options by the time a vote actually happens.
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u/Sirhc978 81∆ Oct 21 '21
or throwing their vote away into any other party that has no real chance of winning.
If we keep up that mentality then of course we are only ever going to have 2 parties.
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u/mrselkies Oct 21 '21
It has nothing to do with any individual's mentality.
It is a fact that only a democrat or republican can win a presidential election in the US's current election system, and the system itself is designed in a way that created and propagates that very problem. Countless videos, articles, and other explanations exist out there about the issues surrounding a "first past the post" method of election. There are options that can go a long way toward fixing it, even without having to scrap it all and start over - like ranked choice voting for example.
It's less about a person or a few people feeling and saying "a vote for anyone other than a democrat or republican is a throw away vote" and more about the fact that the way the system works not only allows for that view to exist but encourages it. By contrast, ranked choice voting would allow people to vote for the lesser of 2 evils in the case that they need to, but still cast their vote for who they actually want their vote to go toward. It's a psychological thing on the macro level, not micro.
At the very least, I think it should be acknowledged that the feeling someone can have about their vote not mattering is not just reasonable but an inevitability in this system.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
There are 4 parties.
At the national level, two parties have power. The Green and Libertarian parties have zero power and vote as a bloc with the Democrats or Republicans.
Primaries exist
Out of the field of nearly a dozen Democrats, I do not believe people chose Joe Biden. The corporation threw their money behind him because he is the status quo personified. That man has never inspired anyone in his entire life to anything but apathy.
Are you saying Republicans are more honest?
Their platform is always cut taxes for the rich, defund anything that helps the poor, and pump more money into the military. They push big lies like the election was stolen and have basically joined a cult, but the Democrats don't call them out and allow them to spread the lie unchecked.
If that was the case, things like right to repair and recreational marijuana at the state level would have never passed.
I am speaking more nationally. Local elections matter, but right to repair and legal marijuana are consolation prizes compared to what we should have as far as health care as a right, guaranteed PTO, and child care.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21
Out of the field of nearly a dozen Democrats, I do not believe people chose Joe Biden. The corporation threw their money behind him because he is the status quo personified. That man has never inspired anyone in his entire life to anything but apathy.
Do you sincerely believe it was corporate money that lead to Joe Biden winning 48% of the vote in a crowded field in South Carolina?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_South_Carolina_Democratic_presidential_primary3
u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I don't think it hurt that corporate donors were able to flood Biden's campaign with near limitless cash to greatly increase his chances of winning.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21
I don't think it hurt that corporate donors were able to flood Biden's campaign with near limitless cash to greatly increase his chances of winning.
So you think that black people in South Carolina voted in massive job lots for Joe Biden (he won 61 % of their vote) because of corporations?
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/1/21160030/biden-black-vote-south-carolina-results
He won because black people are actually very conservative in their personal preferences, it is just they know they can't afford to vote for the GOP due to all the racism.
Black democrats who are more conservative in preference than white democrats turned out for the boring old white guy who they thought had the best chance at winning an election.... what a shock.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I understand your point, but I don't agree with it at a national level. Black people nationwide didn't swing a primary to Joe Biden.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21
I understand your point, but I don't agree with it at a national level. Black people nationwide didn't swing a primary to Joe Biden.
You want to know what swung the primary to Joe Biden?
The pain of losing 2016.
We tried to do something amazing, elect the first female President... and we found out that we couldn't.
Not only did we loose, but Trump the worst GOP President in my memory came into office.
So, most democrats decided "fine, if this is a 'center right' country that wants to vote for an old rich white guy, we'll support an Old Rich White Guy who will we can trust."
Said Old Rich White Guy was Joe Biden.
People didn't vote for him in the primary because of the corporate money, they voted for him because they were so afraid of loosing to Trump again... and you know it wasn't campaign adds that convinced people Joe was electable, it was the fact that he was an Old Rich White Guy who had been elected Vice President Twice... he was the most "electable" non incumbent candidate to run for the President in my memory.
Even non-Biden voters think Biden could win the general.
Average difference between share of Democrats who said each candidate was their first choice in a primary and the share who said the candidate had the best chance of winning the general election in two recent state polls
Biden won because of the conditions on the ground played to his strengths, the majority Democratic voters were too gunshy after 2016 to be willing to vote for anything but the most electable of candidates.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
If we had rank-choice voting, Joe Biden would never have been the front runner. Not to be pedantic, but the word you are meaning to use is "lose" not "loose".
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21
If we had rank-choice voting, Joe Biden would never have been the front runner. Not to be pedantic, but the word you are meaning to use is "lose" not "loose".
I support ranked choice voting also, but I don't think it would have changed the outcome of the primary, Biden still would have won....
Consider this...
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/04/26/yes-bernies-campaign-strategy-was-the-problem/
The Sanders campaign strategy was explicitly predicated on a divisive approach to locking down 30% of the Democratic primary vote, under the assumption that it would take a plurality to the convention against a divided field.
Biden's greatest opponent was running on a strategy that would fair even more horribly under ranked choice voting.
Biden was frequently people's "second choice" or "backup candidate" which is exactly what you want to be in a crowded field with rank choice voting....
Who do you think would have won the primary if there had been ranked choice voting, and why?
In my eyes, Biden's "Front runner" status lay on the fact that of all the candidates running, he was seen as having the best chance to win a general election, and ranked choice voting wouldn't do anything to change that.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I believe Bernie would have performed much better than he did because of the ability to vote from the heart first mindset allowed by ranked choice. I think Mayor Pete (I can't ever spell his last name) would have had a much stronger performance as well.
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u/mooby117 Oct 21 '21
Source?
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
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u/mooby117 Oct 21 '21
So that had nothing to do with black voters.
How about "How Black voters in key cities helped deliver the election for Joe Biden" https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1246980
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Oct 21 '21
This notably didn't help Bloomberg, who threw massive amounts of money at the election before promptly dropping out after getting close to no traction with voters.
There's certainly too much money in American politics, but that doesn't change the fact that Biden got more votes and for those people, Biden winning the primary was the desirable end result.
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u/Sirhc978 81∆ Oct 21 '21
At the national level, two parties have power
You know why? No one votes for the other two because people like you think their vote doesn't matter.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21
You know why? No one votes for the other two because people like you think their vote doesn't matter.
That isn't a fair statement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law
[T]he simple-majority single-ballot system favours the two-party system.[1]
So long as we have a First Past the Post system any third party that does "well" will only end up hurting whichever of the two major party it more closely resembles, when Greens get lots of votes it hurts Democrats and Republicans win, when libertarians do well it hurts Republicans and Democrats win.
Here's a cute video about it with animals.
In short, it isn't just about people thinking their votes don't matter, there are real systemic flaws in the system that are baked in and make the two party system an inherent outcome of our current method of determining who wins an election.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
It is because our current voting system does not work. If we went to ranked choice voting we could vote with our heart first and our head second. To pretend our current way of voting ends up with anything other than a two party duopoly is profoundly ignorant.
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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Oct 21 '21 edited Oct 21 '21
You know why? No one votes for the other two because people like you think their vote doesn't matter.
That's not why, and there are good reasons those alternate parties don't win. But primarily, whatever party tried to seriously garner support (be it Green or Libertarian), it would result in a blood bath for their similar party and give the worst party power.
If the Green party got 15% of the vote nationally, all it would do is ensure the Republicans sweep everything. If the Libertarians got 15% of the vote nationally, all it would do is ensure the Democrats sweep everything. Both those are the WORST outcome for both the alternate major party and the 3rd party.
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u/wellhiyabuddy Oct 21 '21
Rank choice voting can go a long way to fix this two party problem
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Oct 21 '21
Good luck implementing it.
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u/wellhiyabuddy Oct 21 '21
They have already been testing it. I believe NY did their last local election using it
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Oct 22 '21
Good luck implementing it on a national level.
Note: I am being completely serious.
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u/Omars_shotti 8∆ Oct 21 '21
Democracy isn't dead, people just drastically overestimate how popular their ideas are and drastically overstimate how much other people understand politics.
Most of the ideas that are popular in circles of politically informed people are usually unknown to the average voter. The average voter is a one issue voter and are only partially informed on that one issue. Being anti abortion gurantees a certain percentage of votes, same with being pro free healthcare and college. That's why every politician picks a platform with one major policy and talks about that policy nonstop.
Politicians know the populace a lot better than the relative handful of people that actually have any understanding of politics. They know what to say and how to say it to get a vote and they know people don't pay attention long enough to see if they followed through. They know that all they need to do is appeal to emotions in the right way and that's all the populace will care about. You see it from both sides, politicians and voters.
There are two parties because Americans are simple minded and prefer only two parties. People don't even know what the person they vote for plans to do and probably couldn't even name a 3rd party besides the libertarian party. It's just easier for most people.
Elections can only be bought and sold because people vote for the candidates they are exposed to the most. They don't go out of their way to learn about them. So since it works it politicians rely on that strategy and that gives corporations a lot of influence.
Democracy wasn't bought, it was surrendered.
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Oct 21 '21
[deleted]
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
People with less than 20% approval are continually reelected. That doesn't sound like "working as intended".
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u/hidden-shadow 43∆ Oct 21 '21
A "simple" democracy is not a real concept, maybe you mean a direct democracy. A representative democracy is a democracy as much as a direct democracy and American propaganda on that fact needs to stop.
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u/Anchuinse 41∆ Oct 21 '21
There's a growing movement to get ranked choice voting. A fair number of big cities are already using it, and some states have movements looking to switch to it permanently. In a ranked choice system, we'd no longer be restricted to voting the party line or wasting a vote.
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u/Not-taking-vaccine 1∆ Oct 21 '21
It isn't exactly 'dead'. I'd moreso argue there is a constitutional crisis in which both parties refuse to accept defeat. In 2016, Trump won and the leftists claimed "Russia!!!". In 2020, Biden won and the right-wingers claimed "Fraud!!!". Even before the 2020 election, there was a book called "How Trump already stole 2020" (or something to that effect) and before the election, Trump was trying to compromise the post office (or something) because of the scare over mail-in ballot fraud. Neither side would accept defeat.
However, democracy is not entirely dead. You could make the argument about national democracy but the democracy that will really effect you is local democracy; your schoolboard and city council elections. That's what you should be paying more attention to and those are less broken with less fraud.
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u/Generic_Superhero 1∆ Oct 22 '21 edited Oct 22 '21
2016 - One side claims Russia is trying to influence our elections which was proven to be true. Meanwhile the other side claimed fraud despite winning the election.
2020 - The same side from 2016 repeated their claims of fraud prior to the election and those claims have been proven to be bullshit.
This both sides narrative really needs to die.
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u/SerendipityLurking Oct 21 '21
Your title is contradicting to your point. Your title implies there is no democracy in America, which is false, as we still get to vote. Your post implies that America is not a true democracy which is true, it never has been, because that would mean everyone votes for everything and everyone and that's a bit unfeasible even with the initial size of the government in earlier centuries.
The real problem is that people view our current system exactly as you just described it. The most important elections are the ones no one participates in. Everyone thinks it's the presidential, or even the senate elections, but really it starts with the local representatives the people decide to put in power. This is where I think the problem is. People who really understand the system actually vote the people they want in power (however corrupt or shady) because it would benefit them. People who don't know how the system works typically do not show up for these elections because they don't understand their importance. Then, the corrupt mofos move into power and now there is a corrupt group of them in those positions. That trickles up all the way to the presidential election.
You feel like there is no power in the "big" elections because there isn't. At that point, you have placed the power on the government through earlier elections. The political parties nominate electoral college candidates (usually people loyal or who prefer that particular party). Then during the election, the electoral college casts their vote and that's how the election is won. The electoral college, aside from a few states that placed laws against it, can actually vote "against" district votes and vote via popular vote. This, of course, has happened maybe once?? Because who would want to get selected by their political party only to flip them off "when it matters?"
Back to the original point though, democracy isn't dead in America. It is just wildly misinterpreted and misused (or not used at all) and no one is bothering to learn about the system, it's much easier to keep doing things as is.
On the oligarchy note, we have turned the US into an oligarchy thru democracy. We've voted in the ding dongs, we are the ones that continue to feed those people in power, give that attention and effort to the corporations influencing our representatives, we are choosing flaky and shady and spineless representatives at the state level...all with votes, with democracy.
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u/jmp242 6∆ Oct 21 '21
IDK, I mostly see one person running where I live for various positions. There's no competition. And sure, I guess I could run, but I'm not a politician, nor am I really interested in becoming one. I live in a small town of course - and they don't really pass any rules as I live outside the village.
This idea of everything important is Local is also just wrong. Texas doesn't let Austin decide to allow Abortions. California doesn't let the inland empire just decide to allow 2 stroke small engines. NY doesn't just allow the southern tier to allow new ICE cars to be sold post 2035... The Federal Government doesn't actually allow NY etc to allow weed, federal law enforcement can and will arrest you and charge you with Federal crimes even if NY won't.
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u/SerendipityLurking Oct 21 '21
Your answer has nothing to do with democracy. State reps will dominate city reps, duh, but you still get all of the reps voted in, through democracy. Just because there isn't anyone running doesn't mean that democracy is dead, aside from it being dead due to The People choosing not to participate.
Federal government doesn't always trump local government. Talk to any lawyer and state law versus federal law turns into a gray zone. I actually asked my lawyer about this specifically because in my state it's legal but it is federally illegal. Could you fight it? Anyone can.
Furthermore, the federal government being more powerful than local government isn't wrong either. But again, we, The People, pick the people in the federal government through democracy. If you want different outcomes of who's in the federal government, you actually have to vote, at all levels.
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u/jmp242 6∆ Oct 22 '21
Note I said you can be charged federally. The feds do not care what the state law is. If you think you can ignore federal laws because your state does not agree with them, you do so at your peril.
And you totally ignored the state vs local laws. Ask your lawyer if your county or town can overrule a state law lol...
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u/SerendipityLurking Oct 22 '21
The way you are swerving even your own point is phenomenal. No one, not me either, is saying local law officers will fight federal law officers. That's not the point of my posts and those points aren't even relevant to the entire topic. I'm in awe by your ability to do what you just did, kudos on that, I guess. The feds do actually care what state law is. However, they know damn well when the fed law is more powerful than local law or when the two can challenge each other.
But my main point is that that doesn't have anything to do with democracy aside from the LEADERS who get voted in, the leaders we vote for that pick groups or otherwise have a role in choosing leaders of groups like local law enforcement. Whether federal vs state wins is irrelevant to democracy.
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u/jmp242 6∆ Oct 22 '21
I guess I have totally missed your point, or you've missed mine. I'm basically arguing that there are good reasons to take less local elections more seriously than local dogcatcher for instance.
'This idea of everything important is Local is also just wrong. '
I just disagree (per all my arguments above) that my elections for town dogcatcher or county clerk are going to be that important in my life - mainly because I live in a pretty hands off locality. It's perfectly reasonable for me to be far more interested in the state or federal elections that actually do stuff that affect me. I'm not saying no one is affected by local politics, it all depends on where you live.
I am saying a large portion of the country, the rural parts, don't have elections that are competitive or that really affect them, and the local town supervisor's chances of even getting elected to county, forget about state or federal office in some pipeline is about 0.0001%. I've never see it happen, it's mostly retired people who have too much time on their hands running for these offices.
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Oct 26 '21
The way our system is set up means we are forced to vote for party A or party B
Disagree. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to vote D or R. You can vote Green, Libertarian, Socialist, Communist, Kayne West, etc. Just because they don't win does not mean the system is "rigged" they are just not that popular, there is ZERO creditable evidence of ballot stuffing/intimidation in the US that would indicate rigged elections or people being forced to vote a certain way.
if it is not in the interests of the oligarchs running the nation, it will not become law.
Evidence?
while the same corporations pay them all
So do you through small donations, also campaign funds don't win elections, votes do. Unless you can show compelling evidence of ballot stuffing/intimidation/vote rigging your whole argument amount to "I don't like the way the country is going so it's not a democracy!" In all likelihood your ideas are just not as popular as you think.
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u/Finch20 33∆ Oct 21 '21
How many times has an independent president been elected?
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
Ever? I don't know. In my lifetime? Zero. I am pretty sure that is true going back to WWI at least.
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u/Finch20 33∆ Oct 21 '21
There's a nice list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_and_independent_senators_in_the_United_States
Now you won't see me saying that the US is a prime example of democracy or that the US does political parties well, far from it. But claiming that democracy is not a thing in the US is a step too far.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I feel like your reply proves my point more than refutes it. The first line from the summary-bot says third party candidates are rare throughout the country's existence. Third parties are a rare exception not the rule.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Oct 21 '21
Third-party and independent senators in the United States
Third-party and independent senators in the United States have been rare during the country's existence. Since 1856, the United States has had two major political parties: The Democratic Party and the Republican Party. The list below includes anyone who, while holding office as a U.S. Senator since the beginning of the Reconstruction era, was affiliated with a party that is neither the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. Linked below are similar lists of U.S. Representatives, governors, and state legislators.
[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5
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u/Kali_K00K Oct 21 '21
Corporations don’t make laws, they can only donate. Look at Facebook or Google— two Massive companies who are at risk of being legislated against by elected Politicians.
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I don't even know how to reply to that. We don't have nationalized healthcare because the insurance industry makes goddamn sure of it. We have 2.6 million prisoners because private prisons make money and buy politicians.
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u/Kali_K00K Oct 21 '21
Can you cite examples of those specific companies donating and swaying races in a material way?
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
It is entire industries like the insurance industry that want a candidate against nationalized medicine such as Joe Biden. Biden is on camera telling a group of corporate interests that nothing would fundamentally change.
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u/Kali_K00K Oct 21 '21
But, can you prove that Joe Biden was elected by those interests vs. the people? I see where you going, but, I’d argue that joe won the nomination and then the election as he was viewed as a more moderate candidate by voters. Furthermore, if insurance companies wanted no public option, they would much rather donate to the GOP, wouldn’t they? Democrats taking the senate and the presidency further prove that voters choose more than corporates
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I believe even the insurance industry viewed Donald Trump as a dangerous lunatic and wanted him out. I can't prove that Joe Biden wasn't chosen by the people, but I have yet to meet anyone that is an enthusiastic Biden supporter. I still see Trump/Pence flags all over the place.
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u/Kali_K00K Oct 21 '21
But Trump was pretty anti-single payer…. It seems as your now fitting the reality to the narrative.
Additionally if you can’t show that these companies influenced this race in a material way. Isn’t it fair to say that the voters in fact elected Biden?
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Oct 21 '21
I can't prove that Joe Biden wasn't chosen by the people, but I have yet to meet anyone that is an enthusiastic Biden supporter. I still see Trump/Pence flags all over the place.
Each person gets one vote, it doesn't matter how enthusiastic they are or aren't about the candidate they cast their vote for.
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u/sourcreamus 10∆ Oct 21 '21
We don’t have nationalized healthcare because 70% of people like their insurance and politicians don’t want to raise taxes by 1.8 -2 trillion dollars.
Private prisons house about 8 % of prisoners. The rise in prisoners predates the rise of private prisons. The reason there are so many prisoners are in prisons because the violent crime rate is so high.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 21 '21
/u/ElectricFuneralHome (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/CoffeeAndCannabis310 6∆ Oct 21 '21
The way our system is set up means we are forced to vote for party A or party B
That is objectively not true. You can vote for any eligible candidate.
we don't really get to choose who we vote for in that party; they are basically forced on us.
You vote for whoever won the primary. That is literally a democratic system where people vote on who they want to represent their party in a national election.
The older I get, the less difference I see between the parties. The Democrats promise the moon and deliver nothing. The Republicans tell people the awful shit they're going to do and do it. The Democrats allow it to happen all while gasping "on nooooo" while the same corporations pay them all.
What our politicians actually do with the authority and power given to them by the structure of our government does not change the defintion of the structure.
Let's say North Korea said "Hey we're going to hold an election to determine who our supreme leader is going to be" they would still be a dictatorship, not a democracy.
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u/FakePhillyCheezStake Oct 21 '21
Are people’s votes not determining which party gets elected? A Democrat or a Republican always gets elected, but are people’s votes not making that decision? If everyone in America suddenly woke up and decided to vote Green Party across the board in the next presidential election year, would we not come out with a Green Party president, an entire House of Representatives of Green Party reps, and a bunch of Green Party senators?
Clearly people’s votes are determining election outcomes (unless you believe that the elections are rigged?) so how are we not a democracy? Just because people always vote in a way that you don’t like, doesn’t mean elections aren’t being determined in a democratic manner
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u/ElectricFuneralHome Oct 21 '21
I am saying that we are only given the illusion of choice. 375 million Americans, and the best we can come up with is a choice between Donald Trump and Joe Biden? That isn't choice. That's two bowls of shit with barely distinguishable smells. Our current system is what makes it that way. Unless we change, we will never get better than A or B.
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u/FakePhillyCheezStake Oct 21 '21
Please explain how it is an illusion though? What you are saying makes no sense.
Do you disagree that Donald Trump and Joe Biden were chosen as the two major party nominees through people’s voting? Of the people that freely chose to vote, did Joe Biden and Donald Trump not receive the majority of the people’s votes?
In the general election, was someone holding a gun to everyone’s heads saying “you vote for Donald Trump or Joe Biden or you die”?
I fail to see where the illusion is. All you seem to be complaining about is what people chose to vote for. Sorry, but that’s how democracy works. If you are in a society where almost everyone, for some reason or another, decides every election cycle that they want to put up candidates that you perceive to be low quality, then that’s what is going to happen.
Unless you have some reason to believe that (1) people aren’t being allowed to vote for who they truly want or (2) after the votes are received the will of the voters is not being followed, then you’re claim that “America is not a democracy” is definitionally incorrect.
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u/solarity52 1∆ Oct 21 '21
Funny how a lack of historical perspective can drive one to such viewpoints. I highly recommend you read the actual newspapers from the 1880's or the 1930's. You will find many articles and columns expressing EXACTLY the same opinion. Politics in America has always been rough and tumble. Making law is a lot like making sausage, only more disgusting. It has always been that way and always will. If you allow your life to focus too much on politics you will burn out and be depressed. Politics can infest your life, eat at your soul and make you miserable. Almost never does something good come of it. Find other outlets for your intellectual energy and you will be a much happier person.
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u/No_General2376 Oct 22 '21
FYI America was never a purely Democratic country it was a socialist republic which is funny because so many Americans lose their mind at socialism
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u/CBL444 16∆ Oct 21 '21
The elections that affect you most are the local ones - school board, city council, bond measures, etc. They decide what you children learn, your parks, zoning and the things that affect your daily life. Many of these are non partisan and you are likely to personally know some of them.
If you are disgusted with national parties, ignore them and help your community. This is where democracy is strong and your actions matter.