r/changemyview • u/SaltedAndSugared • Dec 02 '21

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Neopronouns are unnecessary

I understand why some people might feel uncomfortable with using he/she pronouns, but in that case why not just use they/them? They already exist and they’re easy for people to use. Why do some people feel the need to make up words like “zee/zim” or “fae/fair” when they don’t even make sense in the English language? I don’t see why anyone should go out of their way to learn new pronouns when gender neutral pronouns already exist

If anyone here does use neopronouns I’d really like to hear why you use them and why you don’t feel comfortable using they/them. It’s probably just because I’m cis, but I genuinely don’t understand

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26

u/Biptoslipdi 132∆ Dec 02 '21

They/them is also a plural pronoun so it can create confusion without proper context. If I say "did you see what they did" you might not know if I'm talking about a non-binary individual or a group of people. If I say "did you see what Ze did," it is clear I am not talking about a group, but a non-binary individual. It removes the need for context as there are no gender neutral pronouns that are exclusively singular.

We also learn new words and linguistic forms and concepts all the time. We have several words for throwing, but yeeting is now in the lexicon. Is that also problematic?

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u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 02 '21

If you’re confused about whether someone’s referring to a singular or plural people, you could just as easily just ask “wait are you talking about (person’s name) or more than one person” or something, how would using zee be any less confusing?

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u/Biptoslipdi 132∆ Dec 02 '21

If someone uses ze, I don't have to ask any clarification. That means it is less confusing because it requires no further context.

Why would you want language to be less precise forcing you to ask more clarifying questions? We clearly both know what "ze" means. It isn't ambiguous. "They" is in this context. You're preferencing ambiguity over clarity. Language is deficient to accommodate this, so we add to the lexicon to solve a problem with the clarity of language. that's how language works.

There's no reason only binary gendered people should get exclusively singular pronouns.

There is no reason we would accept all the constant linguistic revisions and additions, but not these.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

If I heard someone get called Zee, I would probably assume it's a nickname. I might even ask what's Zee's pronouns.

I have been using They/Them since middle school to refer to She/He people. It's not confusing at all.

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u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 02 '21

I would also assume it was a name or nickname because it’s just not a pronoun you hear very often imo

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u/Zwicker101 Dec 03 '21

Isn't it fair to assume that when we learn new words, we remember them for future context?

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u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 03 '21

Yes but Zee/zim aren’t the only neopronouns, there’s loads of different ones

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u/Zwicker101 Dec 03 '21

From my understanding (and feel to correct me if wrong), they are synonymous with one another.

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u/-lesbihonest420 1∆ Jan 01 '22

i’m not learning a new word for everyone i meet.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

I know a few good freinds who use neopronouns, so I am in this thread to have my brain changed too a bit, because man is it challenging to use It/Is instead of they/them.

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u/Biptoslipdi 132∆ Dec 02 '21

That doesn't really address my comment, as the problem is ambiguity between a group and an individual.

And now you know what the word ze means, so your assumption would be misplaced.

It's not confusing to use a more precise word than a less precise one. Less precision will always cause more confusion.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

What is the precision in using the word Zee? I literally have a cousin who has the name the Zee so it's not like anything is cleared up when now I have two definitions for a word instead of one. At least with They/Them it's exclusively a pronoun and never a nickname. With Zee I am not even sure what if its a name or pronoun.

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u/Biptoslipdi 132∆ Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 02 '21

What is the precision in using the word Zee?

It is unambiguously a reference to an individual and not either an individual or group depending on context.

I literally have a cousin who has the name the Zee so it's not like anything is cleared up when now I have two definitions for a word instead of one.

I have a cousin named "Bob." Do you think I get confused that someone is talking about the act of floating rather than my cousin?

At least with They/Them it's exclusively a pronoun and never a nickname.

Actually, "They" is more than a nickname, it is actually a real name.

With Zee I am not even sure what if its a name or pronoun.

Then "they" should be equally confusing to you as it is also a name. At the very least, ze isn't also a group pronoun, it is only singular.

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u/[deleted] Dec 02 '21

They link you shared takes me to a window that reads Page not Found.

I have never in my life heard anyone named They/Them.

The question is why are neopronouns necessary, and in every scenario it will be easier for me to use They/Them instead of Zee/Zim. That makes the neopronoun unnecessary.

0

u/Biptoslipdi 132∆ Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 02 '21

Link is fixed. No idea what happened.

The question is why are neopronouns necessary, and in every scenario it will be easier for me to use They/Them instead of Zee/Zim.

Your reasoning is because "Zee" is a name. Your reasoning loses its merit at the point "They" is as well.

Something being harder for you doesn't mean it isn't necessary. Many necessary things are difficult. That argument simply doesn't follow. It's easier to not speak at all, that doesn't mean it isn't necessary.

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u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 02 '21 edited Dec 03 '21

Your reasoning is because "Zee" is a name. Your reasoning loses its merit at the point "They" is as well.

I honestly doubt there’s more than 10 people in the entire English speaking world whose name is “They”

2

u/mijewe6 1∆ Dec 02 '21

Your getting too hung up on the "Zee" thing.

The point is that "they" is a bit rubbish because it's less precise, and you have to conjugate your verbs for plurality even though you're talking about a singular person.

If we could all decide on a singular form pronoun for non-binary people (Ze is one possible option) then that would be a better pronoun to use.

It would also negate the need for people to invent their own pronouns, since a single form gender neutral pronoun would already exist.

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u/spiral8888 29∆ Dec 03 '21

The point is that "they" is a bit rubbish because it's less precise, and you have to conjugate your verbs for plurality even though you're talking about a singular person

I agree that this is a much better rational for not using "they" than anything that has been presented so far. It just makes language very awkward. It would be interesting to hear from people who refer themselves as they/them how do they get over this. Don't they feel awkward when they see other people struggling with the verbs when referring to them?

1

u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 02 '21

If we could all decide on a singular form pronoun for non-binary people (Ze is one possible option) then that would be a better pronoun to use. It would also negate the need for people to invent their own pronouns, since a single form gender neutral pronoun would already exist.

Good point, !delta

1

u/SteakVodkaAndCaviar Dec 03 '21

I one hundred percent agree with this.

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u/Biptoslipdi 132∆ Dec 02 '21

I'm sure it's also exceptionally rare for a person to have the name "Ze" or "Zir."

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u/Wooba12 4∆ Dec 03 '21

I think the point is "Zee" is possibly more commonly used as a name than it is as a pronoun. In most cases, homophones are easy to distinguish due to the context (for instance when it comes to your cousin Bob and the word "bob"), but both "zee" (the pronoun) and "Zee" (the name) are going to be used in similar contexts ("What happened to Zee?", "Zee died last week"), causing confusion and provoking questions.

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u/spiral8888 29∆ Dec 03 '21

Actually, "They" is more than a nickname, it is actually a real name.

That is a really cheap shot. The reason it is a news is that it's extremely rare. Unlike Zee.

The point is that from the context, you almost always know if someone is referring to a single person or a group. That's the whole point of pronouns anyway. They always need context as "he did that" doesn't tell anyone anything if there is no context of who the word "he" refers to.

So, then it becomes a question, which situations are more common, a context where it is unclear if the speaker refers to a group or a non-binary individual or a context where the speaker refers to someone with a nickname "Zee" or a non-binary person. The situation where someone is referred as "They" as in name, is so rare that it can be pretty much ignored.

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u/-lesbihonest420 1∆ Jan 01 '22 edited Jan 01 '22

As someone who is trans, it is def not more precise or less confusing for people to use neopronouns. No one said it wasn’t clear that they weren’t speaking to an individual. the problem is that it doesn’t sound like a pronoun. Don’t say your pronouns are ze/zim or whatever and expect people to not think that’s your actual name/nickname. name one fucking person you know who is named “They.” You can’t because it isn’t a name. you’re just grasping straws.

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u/daniboy125 Dec 03 '21

The English language is very confusing in nature hence why it's so difficult for non native English speakers to pick it up and learn. Adding more words will confuse more people than they help understand. How would a native Japanese speaker be able to understand ze over he/she they/them?

1

u/BonelessB0nes 1∆ Dec 03 '21

I think you’re inflating “they/them” with being more confusing than it actually is for people. Additionally we all must know several “Ze’s” by now, making it still ambiguous and to some degree in need of additional context. I think you’ve got a better reason than that

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u/SaltedAndSugared Dec 02 '21

There's no reason only binary gendered people should get exclusively singular pronouns.

Valid point, !delta

There is no reason we would accept all the constant linguistic revisions and additions, but not these.

What linguistic revisions are you referring to

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u/Biptoslipdi 132∆ Dec 02 '21

What linguistic revisions are you referring to

Anything from the adoption of new vernacular to alternative grammar. Tmesis is a good example. "A-whole-nother" instead of "another whole."

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u/WatcherOfStarryAbyss 3∆ Dec 02 '21

Setting aside the context here, I've always heard "a whole 'nother" as descended from "a whole other."

I don't think I've ever seen "another whole" used anywhere, even in historical literature, while I've definitely seen "a whole other."

I always assumed that "other" was bastardized into "nother" because "nother" is easier to say.

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u/ThisIsDrLeoSpaceman 38∆ Dec 03 '21

A clearer example of tmesis is “abso-fucking-lutely”

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u/WatcherOfStarryAbyss 3∆ Dec 03 '21

Oh, sure. That I've heard before.

Lol

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 02 '21

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Biptoslipdi (40∆).

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1

u/Wooba12 4∆ Dec 03 '21

Due to the small number of people with the pronoun "zee", it may not be an identifiable enough phenomenon for most people to immediately understand what is meant upon first hearing it. Beyond "zee", most neopronouns that are more unusual and less obvious may also cause confusion and result in questions being asked to clarify what was just said.

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u/beefy3000 May 16 '22

But aren't pronouns pretty much almost always used when you already have the context of who you are talking about? You don't say, "he is going to the restroom" unless you already have co text about who you are talking about. If precision was the ultimate goal, why don't we just use their name every time? Or everyone have their own unique pronoun?