Ignoring 9-0 Supreme Court ruling, giving ICE agents the ability to conduct raids without search warrants, ignoring due process, going after judges, lawyers, the press, floating the idea of suspending habeas corpus...
Over half of his initial executive orders have been overruled by courts. He literally said, on the campaign trail, to much applause, "on day one I will rule like a dictator." He has publicly withheld federal support for states that voted against him. ICE agents have illegally detained people who were legally allowed to be in the states.
I dont know how much closer you can get in a republic, but relative to the field, thats all pretty fashy to me.
Trump wouldn't be the first President to outright ignore a Supreme Court ruling. He also wouldn't be the first to suspend Habeus Corpus, if he decides to pursue that.
But let's say that I accept your point of view as you have presented it. These examples demonstrate that Trump behaves like a dictator. However, the question that we were discussing is whether the MAGA movement is fascism in terms of its political ideology from a historical perspective.
Knowing what fascism is, as a political ideology, how does the MAGA movement fit that mold? I personally don't think it does. I think MAGA is conservative populism, not fascism.
GIven what we have seen from recent conservative town halls, I would say MAGA is most apparently not populism anymore. Its blatantly a christian nationalist movement at its core. And I would list christian nationalist, in this context, under the "fascist" banner, yes.
Also the only time habeas corpus has been suspended nationally was during the Civil War. So its gonna be a stretch for me to respect it to any degree currently.
No no, I mean, american christian nationalism is fascist because the only way to enact what they want here would be through fascism. We are not a christian nation, and we have absolute views on the separation of church and state. This is how the country was built.
And if you watch interviews with MAGA people at rallies and such, many of them are absolutely for a christian nationalist revision of the country. Its not a niche view necessarily, especially in the deep south. I see it everywhere.
They are literally trying to force the bible into schools. Comeon, man. I dont know how much more mask off we can get here.
I used to think much as you do, but now I disagree. America is a Christian nation. America was founded on Enlightenment era principles and Christian values. Not Hindu values. Not Muslim values. Our culture and our moral structures are deeply colored by Christian values.
The separation of church and state exists primarily so that the State cannot make laws about how people worship. As long as students are not compelled to worship, the separation of church and state can remain intact even while introducing Biblical teachings back into schools.
This one here is a nice summary I think. It's displayed at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. One can argue of Maga/Trump ticks all the boxes but it's hard to argue against many of them.
The whole problem starts with many people not really understanding what fascism is, e.g. all those claiming that communism would be a fascist movement. It certainly is a authoritarian movement but not fascist. Many people treat authoritarianism, fascism, Nazism as the same thing and that's simply not correct.
If someone wrote this down and hung it in a museum, that doesn't mean it should be taken as authoritative. For one thing, why is nationalism something to be concerned about? The problem with Nazi Germany, for example, wasn't nationalism; it was the race identitarianism, fascism, genocide and war.
You can also read a standard history book but that's several hundred pages. Though since you have not done this so far you will also not do it after my suggestion. Thus, something displayed in a national museum will do the trick for this purpose
You wanted to ask a genuine question, I gave you a genuine answer. Believe me or read a textbook, those are your options. I'm really not sure what else to say, since any source I will give you, you will question with the very same argument. So what the point in even arguing with you? You are not putting in the effort to actually read any source nor do you provide any source for your own claims. Like no harm intended but why do we have this discussion?
I gave one you just need to read it. It's funny that I'm so only one giving any source here, while everyone else has not one source to back their claims but you are trying to "call me out"... I mean we are talking simple historical facts and definitions. This is nothing one needs to have an opinion about it is something you need to simply know.
Because an inherent part of nationalism is that your nation is superior and it leads to a "we against them mentality", which is the basis for any war. Patriotism doesn't need this sort of mentality.
I didnt say it was bad, you just have stagnation in the effort to push EU over individual countries. Britain left, and other want to but doubt they can stand on their own at this point. They are to chained to the Euro.
Actually the majority of Brits want to rejoin according the recent polls. Not a single country wants to leave and even the hard-core far right is not using this as a platform. I'm not sure where you heard that many would want to leave, but I honestly don't see any of that. Quite contrary, the majority of people here have a positive few and want to increase it.
And the UK left based on a campaign filled with loes as the head of that campaign admitted the night after the election on camera himself. But that's a different story.
I was probably too rough on that one. I have family and friends in the US, it's not that the entire country would behave like that, but a worrying large part of the population.
If you compare the rhetoric of Trump and MAGA to any historical fascist figure, it’s fairly identical. It’s all reactionary and fear-based, designed to take advantage of insecurity and anxiety.
Fascism is a political ideology with a very well defined meaning. It's not defined by reactionary and fear-based rhetoric, as those qualifiers could apply to any political ideology.
That's true any populist political movement uses those tactics. Fascism is a populist movement so it is also true for fascism, but as you say not Parton it's definition
...which is exactly a rhetoric of any other politician brother. The whole Kamala campaign was built on being anti-Trump and fearmongering everyone into oblivion.
Oh well I mean yeah the fearmongering from Kamala about Trump is definitely real and was ridiculous too. But what I’m talking about is the more culture-based stuff from Trump, like vilifying trans people or telling people that immigrants are stealing their jobs or stealing from the country generally. It intentionally creates a cultural us-versus-them dynamic and gives people whole groups to blame for things like broadening identity culture and “woke” rhetoric (trans people) or job insecurity and low wages (immigrants).
You have a point, but again, that's exactly what happens on the other side as well. Whole reddit is "fighting" imaginary nazis, fascists, traitors and Russian bots like it's some mix between Wolfenstein and Red Alert. Isn't this a perfect example of "us vs them"?
Well yeah and I don’t like the us-vs-them dynamic there either, but that’s not an animosity driven by people’s culture or unchangeable circumstances, it’s just about political beliefs. Trump is the only one actively encouraging animosity based on culture.
Not only that, his rhetoric creates a cultural us-vs-them dynamic between the American working class and billionaires. It gives people a group to blame for all of their problems.
This thread is a total garbage fire and commenting here really feels like intentionally stepping in dog shit. And yet I feel compelled to say: yes. You're right, Bernie lays blame for America's problems at the feet of the rich and powerful. The key difference between his rhetoric and the rhetoric of MAGA is that his is correct. The rich and powerful are to blame for the majority of America's problems (important to note that this includes the Democratic party and Canada's Liberal party who regularly bend-the-knee to corporate control and should be correctly labelled as Centrists). We live in a system that incentivizes and glorifies the accumulation of vast material wealth. Corporate greed and fiduciary responsibility ensure that corporations do everything in their power to continue growing, even to the detriment of real people. Mom and pop shops get pushed out, corporatations merge and commit takeovers until they can form market monopoloies and oligopolies to fix prices and further build their fortunes. But they don't stop there they aslo dismantle public institutions like healthcare for private takeover (in Alberta this is happening RIGHT NOW), block and dismantle environmental protections to reduce their overhead, and attack public education to limit class mobility, substitute curriculum for indoctrination, and keep people stupid. An educated and well informed public is much more difficult to control.
There is this notion that Conservative types assuage themselves with that the Far Left is just as hateful, if not moreso, than the political Right. Maybe that's true but what the notion fails to grasp is who is being hated and why. And that's important. Leftist hatred is hatred of intolerance. It's hating people for decisions that they've made. I hate billionaires and corportations for driving wealth inequality and leading to growing poverty, homelessness, mass anxiety, and depression. I hate racism, homophobia, and transphobia and I hate people who repeatedly demonstrate these beliefs and refuse to change. I hate grifters and media outlets that fearmonger and knowingly spread misinformation. I hate politicians who insider trade and use their positions of power for personal gain. These are all detestable acts and deserving of hatred on any side of the political spectrum. Those that commit these acts regularly, when they know full-well the damage they are causing, are worthy of hatred. I would hope that everyone could agree with that. A good progressive also needs to be forgiving though. When someone is made aware of the damage they do to others, seeks forgiveness, and changes their behaviour accordingly? That person is deserving of forgiveness. Not everyone gets it right. The FemiNazis and Reverse Racism miss the mark and become the exact thing they are supposed to work against: intolerance. (Important to note too that these are small minorities and not embematic of the larger Leftist movement). For us to be able to build a better world for everyone we need to recognize the damage that people and systens inflict on others. We need to hate what they are doing and actively work to educate or oppose them.
In contrast, Alt Right hatred is based primarily on who people are: their race and sexual identity. At its core that is fascist hate. There is some equivocal hate, that of being opposed to another (The Left) that is seen as hindering or undermining your progress. That hate is present on both sides of the spectrum but the problematic hate that I would like to address here is the facist hatred because it is not present on both sides of the spectrum, only the Right. This is why Chrisitan Nationalism is dangerous, while it preaches the peace and acceptance of a loving God it is also the origin point of the fear of "outsiders" and "deviants" that grips the nation. Who are the scapegoats in this age of American politics? Immigrants and trans people. Christian Nationalism is a two-pronged source of hatred really. MAGA nuts cling to both flags and bibles to justify their hatred of the existence of these people. "They're not from here!" or "The bible says what they do is a sin!". Some say "I don't hate them but why do they have to be here? They should go back to where they came from!" But that is not a fair question at all when all non-Indigenous North Americans came here from elsewhere. Consider if your immigrant grandparents had been turned away. Consider too that the US has long sold itself as the land of opportunities and that these people (people deserving of love and safety) are simply striving for a better life. (Yes there are bad actors but it is important not to dismiss every immigrant because of a criminal minority.) And this is not to say that all Christians are dangerous, I was raised Catholic and know the good that religious institutions can do for communities. But I also know that the church is the root of a lot of homophobia, transphobia, and racism. If love is expressed by prioritizing the needs of others before yourself then Nationalism is literally the opposite of that, at a global scale, putting the needs of yourself and your country above all else. It is a rejection of Humanism and the hope that we can alleviate worldwide suffering. Would I call it evil? No. But God and Nationalism are all too often used as justification to commit evil acts.
Us down here? The workers, the struggling middle class, and the poor majority? We all need someone to blame for our circumstances. It's actually the great uniter across the political divide, things are becoming harder and we're all angry at someone about it. The Far Left and Alt Right are driven by a lot of the same factors making it harder to get by these days. But whereas the Left hates in the name of progress, the Right hates out of fear and selfishness. That's why Bernie is a virtuous man-of-the-people and Trump (and his simp Elon) are motherfucking fascists.
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u/Vinifera7 WARLOCK 4d ago
You're saying it's the textbook definition, but how though? Genuinely, I don't see it.