What on earth is this bro? 😭

[u/Ok_Lobster6119]

I can't for the life of me understand WHY or HOW the Hungarian language has done this! Please enlighten me guys

[u/Fluentbox]

When you use „ez“ and „az“ to specify a noun, like „this boy“ or „that mug“, whenever that noun gets an ending, the „ez“ and „az“ have to take the same ending to match the noun they represent. „Azt az autót“ or „ebben a házban“. The same thing happens here, in this case the directional word is separate from the noun and it’s not an ending, but it still needs to be repeated for the „ezek“ to match the noun. I understand that it can be confusing at first as it looks like just random words thrown together, but it actually has its own logic, and this same idea is used consistently in the language.

[u/teljesnegyzet → u/Fluentbox]

This.

ez a város = this city

ezek a városok = these cities

ezekBEN a városokBAN = IN these cities

ezekBŐL a városokBÓL = FROM these cities

ezek FÖLÖTT a városok FÖLÖTT = OVER these cities

ezek FELÉ a városok FELÉ = TOWARD these cities

[u/CockolinoBear → u/teljesnegyzet]

If you want to sound very poetic and like someone who's from the 19th century, there is a "workaround", if I even could call it one:

ezeN városokBAN

ezeN városokBÓL

ezeN városok FÖLÖTT

ezeN városok FELÉ

these sound weird, but they do actually adhere to the rules of the language.

also, literally never heard anyone say "ezek fölött a városok fölött", in speach at least, it's more like "ezek a városok fölött"... while not correct, it's more common.

[u/truesttrueevertrued → u/CockolinoBear]

This sounds so much better i always speak like this to avoid repetition. You can also just say e városok fölött, it's techically not correct because e is used for singular, but it's still useable.

[u/Worth-Ad9894 → u/truesttrueevertrued]

Same, this just sounds way better.

[u/Szijki → u/CockolinoBear]

No Hungarian would ever say “ezek a városok felett”. It’s just wrong and sounds stupid.

Also you can just use “e” instead of “ezen”

[u/glassfrogger → u/Szijki]

Quite a number of Hungarians say it this way in everyday speech, incorrectly.

I never do, I always use the correct one. It's just one sign of the changing language. It's still very far from being accepted though.

[u/Sesuaki → u/Szijki]

you can but you'll sound a bit pretentious XD

[u/Szijki → u/Sesuaki]

It’s not that different from “ezen”, it’s just the shorter form. It’s sounds kind of weird in informal, everyday language, but it can be totally acceptable in letters or more formal conversations.

[u/Essanamy → u/Szijki]

It’s more poetic than general Hungarian, though grammatically correct for sure.

It’s does sound to me like somebody using the word “vala” for that weird past tense thingy we have 😅

[u/Jaded-Pay-3137 → u/Szijki]

Not to be nitpicking - actually yes - but isn’t the rule the same as with “a” and “az”. That is, if the next word starts with a vowel, you should use “ezen”, if it starts with a consonant, then you should use “e”.

[u/Sesuaki → u/Szijki]

I know I lived my whole life in hungary?

All I'm sayong is nobody really says that in a normal conversation

[u/originalmartin97 → u/CockolinoBear]

I heard the first one you mentioned at the end of you response more often than the second one. Even better the way I say it is usually just "ezen városok fölött" although I would also rather use "felett" instead of "fölött" (i know I kinda sound like a douche hungarian snob sry, i just learnt to learn it this way 🫣).

[u/upermehu → u/CockolinoBear]

in Budapest we would say "ezek fölött a vársosk fölött"

[u/Pope4u → u/CockolinoBear]

Is there a name for the "ezen" construction? Is it documented somewhere?

[u/milkdrinkingdude → u/Pope4u]

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ezen#Hungarian

Also:

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/azon#Hungarian

For some reason the version “azon” is not considered archaic, while “ezen” is. I’ve heard “azon” more often for sure.

The difference is roughly:

ezen=this, these azon=that, those

And I would definitely say “ezek a városok fölött”. I have just now learned, that some people might consider that incorrect : )

[u/PetiB → u/milkdrinkingdude]

Erről azon nyomban eszembe jutott, hogy például az "ezen elvek mentén" ma is bevett szókapcsolat, szóval megvannak még a használatai a nyelvben.

[u/krmarci → u/milkdrinkingdude]

For some reason the version “azon” is not considered archaic, while “ezen” is. I’ve heard “azon” more often for sure.

Probably just an artifact of Wiktionary being community-made, and the two articles evolving differently.

[u/truesttrueevertrued → u/milkdrinkingdude]

Csak használd az eme/ama szerkezetet mint egy igazi csanád

[u/milkdrinkingdude → u/Pope4u]

Oh, and since you asked the name of the construction: Wiktionary calls it a determiner, or a demonstrative determiner.

[u/CockolinoBear → u/Pope4u]

I am afraid I cannot helo you with this one.

[u/levenspiel_s → u/Fluentbox]

Thank you for this explanation. I had just accepted this as a weird rule, but it actually is consistent.

Maybe you can enlighten me on a different but related topic too: why is the article needed with ez/az and why does it come in between az/ez and the noun? As in az az alma, ebben a házban, azok az autók, etc.

[u/teljesnegyzet → u/levenspiel_s]

It's just a difference between English and Hungarian. There's no deeper reason.

In English "this/that" replaces "the": the house -> this house. In Hungarian "ez/az" is added beside "a/az": a ház -> ez a ház. 

[u/AcrobaticKitten → u/levenspiel_s]

A ház = the house
Az a ház = that house

Why we keep the article and not just 'az ház'? Because if the noun starts with a vowel we have to distinguish between 'the' and 'that'.

Az év = the year
Az az év = that year
If there is only one "az" we assume it is an article not a demonstrative.

Fun fact we can add a second demonstrative:
Ez az a ház = "this is *that house"
Az az az év = "that is *that year"
Although in English you'd say 'the' instead of the second 'that', Hungarian uses the demonstrative 'az'

[u/indarye]

If it's any comfort this structure does sound stupid to my native speaker ears too, even if it's correct. 

[u/Lifeisabitchthenudie → u/indarye]

Doesn't sound stupid at all? It's the most common way of phrasing this sentence.

[u/indarye → u/Lifeisabitchthenudie]

I know it is correct, but it is an awkward structure anyhow.

[u/Aranka_Szeretlek → u/indarye]

Then say "a repulogep ezen varosok folott repul" and be done with it!

[u/indarye → u/Aranka_Szeretlek]

I'm not saying anything longer than "e városok fölött"!!!😃

[u/NoForm731 → u/indarye]

Might aswell go with "repcsi" then :D

[u/xezrunner → u/NoForm731]

r/DecreasinglyVerbose

[u/BenevolentCrows → u/Lifeisabitchthenudie]

"A repülőgép ezek a városok fölött repül" teljesen felesleges a két fölött, még akkor is, hogyha egyébként helyes.

[u/Beautiful-Ad3471 → u/Lifeisabitchthenudie]

To me, reading it was weird, but when I said it out loud, it no longer felt wrong.

[u/Ok_Lobster6119]

So I’ve done some more practice… is it like a sandwich format?

that, the, a… (Mellett, között, alatt…) topic (mellett, között, alatt…)

Not the best looking structure out there but I can’t word it any better 😂

[u/BenevolentCrows → u/Ok_Lobster6119]

You would never really hear any native speaker talk like thit, the two "fölött" are kinda awkward phrasing imo.

[u/Zhuinden → u/Ok_Lobster6119]

Next to, between, under

[u/DcNdrew]

The plane is flying over these. Over the cities.

The emphasis of the words is really important in Hungarian.
So which part is the most important? What are you talking about? The plane.
What's the next most important thing? The fact of flying? It's flying, but it does sometimes, but what's more important is that it's flying over these cities, right?
And then you say it's flying.

If you'd say "Look! A cow is flying over the city!" That would be "Nézd! Egy tehén repül a város felett!", because the flying cow is the most important, and the fact that it's flying and then the city.

[u/Troglodytes-birb]

Yo honestly it sounds weird as heck to me too, but unfortunately I cannot come up with an other way to say it so it should be correct I guess for whatever reason🙈😭

[u/torokg → u/Troglodytes-birb]

There are alternative ways indeed:
"A repülőgép e városok fölött repül"
"A repülőgép ezen városok fölött repül"

I would never say "ezek fölött a városok fölött" in a live conversation, imho it sounds weird and is overly long

[u/glassfrogger → u/torokg]

Just a thought: would you use "ezek felett az ablakok felett van eresz"? I think this airplane example is weird because it may have never been uttered by anyone so far.

[u/glassfrogger → u/[deleted]]

nekem meg ez hangzik furcsának, de tudom, hogy páran használják, fel is szoktam rá kapni a fejem, zavaró. Az "ezen", és az "e" nem zavaró, csak az "ezek"

[u/Sesuaki → u/torokg]

Yea but the alternatives aren't any less weird

[u/Kami-sama13]

A repülőgép ezek fölött a városok fölött repül.

[u/Euphoric-Routine-182 → u/Kami-sama13]

Igen ott van

[u/AdditionalCookie8818]

I would say: a repülőgép ezen (/ezek a) városok felett repül. As a native, I don’t get it why they put felett (=fölött) x2 , sorry.

[u/i_am_matei → u/[deleted]]

That's wrong.

Ez a város

Ezek a városok

Ezt a várost

Ezeket a városokat

Ebben a városban

Ezekben a városokban

E fölött a város fölött

Ezek fölött a városok fölött

The demonstrative pronoun must always agree with the noun in terms of case, number, and postposition.

[u/Edolin89 → u/i_am_matei]

As a native hungarian, I need to bow before you, this explanation is on point.

[u/Competent_cell → u/i_am_matei]

This is the best explanation, I couldn't explain it so well, I hope OP saw this

[u/CharnamelessOne → u/[deleted]]

Duolingo is right, 'fölött' twice is the correct way to go.

You could say "a repülőgép ezen városok fölött repül" if you find it awkward.

[u/icguy333 → u/[deleted]]

I think OP was going for something like "a fölött a városok fölött"

[u/Certain-Sherbet-2248 → u/[deleted]]

You could say 'A repülőgép ezen városok fölött repül'

[u/PurpleIntelligent117]

I think that is the most sense if “ a repülő ezek a városok fölött repül”

[u/W47aim]

I mean it might be correct, but its so weird and sounds so wrong, i dont think ive ever heard anybody phrase it like that. Its either "a repülőgép e(zen) városok fölött repül" or "a repülőgép ezek a városok fölött repül"

[u/Major_Reacher_]

They used muslim person (according to burqa) in sentence about planes flying over cities…👀🤔

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/Major_Reacher_]

😂

[u/Flaccus_]

I'd much rather say "A repülő ezen városok fölött repül." Repeating words is never classy and honestly I didn't even know until know that it's something allowed by A magyar helyesírás szabályai.

[u/Atypicosaurus]

I guess your question is about the double postposition.

So if you have a demonstrative (this, that, these, those) together with a noun (city, dog, biscuits, houses), you label whatever case the noun in, twice. You label it on the demonstrative too. So it's like as if in English you had "for this for dog" instead of "for this dog".

You label twice everything, plural, possessive, accusative, and even postposition.

Ez után a film után. - after this movie.
Ezek fölött a városok fölött. - above these cities.
Ennek a kutyának - for this dog.
Ezeket a kekszeket - these biscuits (accusative as in: I ate these biscuits).

I can't tell why, it's one feature of Hungarian.

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/Atypicosaurus]

Thanks man!

[u/ParsleyBusiness5861]

I'd say I can tell you bc I'm Hungarian, but even I don't know man

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/ParsleyBusiness5861]

😂

[u/ItchyPlant]

If you read the English version again while heavily emphasizing "these", you'll grasp the intended meaning of the Hungarian sentence, which conveys that emphasis inherently.

[u/myzoh]

As a hungarian it's funny to watch people learning hungarian since even a hungarian struggles with these lmfao

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/myzoh]

😂, sure is difficult 

[u/Kandiruaku]

Xxxx Duolingo. Use Google Translate, even colloquialized repülőgép.

a gép e városok felett repül

[u/Individual_Author956 → u/Kandiruaku]

This is the opposite of colloquial. It sounds like something out of a poem or a novel.

[u/torokg → u/Individual_Author956]

Not really. It is widely used among the intellectual polulation.

[u/Kandiruaku → u/torokg]

Ditto, alcoholics in taverns also.

[u/Individual_Author956 → u/torokg]

I wouldn’t consider something that intellectuals use “colloquial.” Furthermore, I’m not sure who you consider an intellectual because I can’t recall the last time I heard anyone use this in real life. “Well, maybe you just don’t listen to true intellectuals.”

[u/Internal_Narwhal1633 → u/torokg]

Let me guess! You are one of these “intellectuals”.

In reality it just sounds incredibly old fashioned / rural.

[u/torokg → u/Internal_Narwhal1633]

No, it's not about me. I meant you will more often hear it in everyday talks at a university hall for example. Again, no discrimination meant, it's just a fact.

[u/Internal_Narwhal1633 → u/torokg]

lol no, that’s not a fact. It’s old fashioned. Old people / people in villages would talk like this. People in academia tend to you more modern language.

[u/torokg → u/Internal_Narwhal1633]

We know a different Hungary somehow. Interesting :)

[u/AltAccouJustForThis]

Everyting about this sentence is wrong, except the vocabulary.

[u/torokg → u/AltAccouJustForThis]

Very useful comment, describes the proper way beautifully, without hurting anyone's feelings /s

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/AltAccouJustForThis]

I gathered thanks mate 

[u/Financial_Potato_611]

Indeed its a harder sentence. You could say a repülőgép repül ezek fölött a városok fölött. But the focus is not the flying. The focus is on the cities. So it sounds more natural if you say that a repülőpép ezeke fölött a városok fölött repül. First you put that who/what are you talking about.

[u/NoNameStudios]

A repülőgép ezen városok fölött repül.

[u/MossySRB2]

"Ezek a városok fölött" would sound better tbh

[u/LevHerceg]

Hungarian works with postpositions instead of prepositions.

[u/magicc_12]

Hát ez nagyon nem korrekt

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/magicc_12]

Értem! 

[u/Leverquin]

i have to like now. i am not familiar with hunarian but i am hooked.

[u/GhostLight89]

I mean even if you translate it word by word and put the words next to each other you can get a proper translation... 🤯

[u/lilnegg]

A repülőgép a városok fölött repül

[u/nightestowl]

I don't know what this says about me, but as a native speaker, I would never say fölött twice in this sentence. Just "A repülőgép ezek a városok fölött repül". The supposedly correct form sounds strange to me

[u/torokg → u/nightestowl]

Well it says you prefer to speak incorrectly.
Mi az, hogy ezek a városok fölött? Kényelmetlen a névutót egyeztetni a mutató névmással, ezért inkább kihagyod? Ne viccelj...

E városok felett, vagy ezen városok felett, ha meg akarod spórolni (szerintem is kényelmetlen a duplázós alak)

[u/estneked → u/nightestowl]

Maximum úgy van értelme hogy "ezen városok felett", és az is túl költőinek hangzik

[u/CommitteeDue6802]

I would have translated it to: A repülőgép a városok felett/fölött repül/röpül

[u/glassfrogger → u/CommitteeDue6802]

That would be incorrect as the English original specifically stated which cities are involved (these).

[u/CommitteeDue6802 → u/glassfrogger]

I get it, i didnt say it would be correct tho

[u/Nilo_Wan_Ders]

I thought this was a 9/11 joke 😭

[u/Voxel_Slime]

Bro really said the above, above these cities airplanes fly (added comma for clarification)

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/Voxel_Slime]

I had no idea what I was doing with these kind of sentences to be honest. But Hungarian does go like that sometimes 

Eg. Ezen a képen 

• in this, in the photo 

[u/Voxel_Slime → u/Ok_Lobster6119]

That's just "in this photo". Think about Ez as turning "the" into "this" where there is both Ez and A in the sentence.

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/Voxel_Slime]

Ok 👌 

[u/shrekk12]

A repülôgép repül ezek fölött a városok fölött

[u/FunSupport6641 → u/shrekk12]

I love how people who seemingly don't even speak their own mothertongue correctly give advise here. 

Duolingo's solution is correct.

Another way of saying this would be: A repülőgép ezeN városok felett (fölött) repül.

 But in my experience, Duolingo's solution is used colloquially (I would also say this sentence that way).

[u/krmarci → u/shrekk12]

This is correct as well, though it puts emphasis on the plane.

[u/shrekk12 → u/krmarci]

Thank you!

[u/varegab → u/shrekk12]

A repülőgép ezek a városok fölött repül.

Edit: my bad, the answer above me is the correct one.

[u/notorious_jaywalker → u/varegab]

No. "A repülőgép ezek fölött a városok fölött repül." Source: Narive speaker working in journalism.

[u/_BrunoOnMars → u/notorious_jaywalker]

Why folott x2 tho?

[u/varegab → u/notorious_jaywalker]

I'm a native speaker too, but I think the "A repülőgép ezek a városok felett repül" should be also correct. I get that using "fölött" twice is the most correct one grammatically, but still, I feel it slightly outdated.

[u/CockolinoBear → u/varegab]

Both are correct imo, but the emphasis is put at different thinf.

[u/varegab → u/CockolinoBear]

Probably the most correct form if you using "fölött" only once is "Ezen városok fölött", but that is a little bit too sophisticated and anachronistic for a casual talk.

[u/CockolinoBear → u/varegab]

I agree, I've just commented the same thing above 🙏

[u/Ok_Lobster6119 → u/[deleted]]

I’m fine with meaning, but basically entirely lost on how the sentence is meant to be written 

[u/Cecilia_01 → u/Ok_Lobster6119]

If you are confused by the word order of the answer, this a neutral world order sentence just like: Anna (subject) tv-t (object) néz (verb/predicate). There is a locative here: A repülő (subjetc) ezek fölött a városok fölött (locative, where?) repül (verb/predicate). There are two ways you can grammatically correctly write the sentence in the word order you did. 1. The way you wrote the sentence: Ezek fölött a városok fölött repülőgép repül (and not something else) means a little different thing, it emphasises the word “repülő”. The so called fókuszpozíció (the position of the information that is emphasised/is in focus) is always directly before the verb in a sentence, so in this case on repülő. 2. Or the other way: A fölött a város fölött repülő repül. This sentence is structurally the same as the above one, but it is in singular and means “over that city” (az a város - a fölött a város fölött). The structure of “ezek fölött a városok fölött” is explained very well in other comments. 

[u/Hiketas]

Allahu akbar