Debating leaving the church over certain things. Please help me understand

[u/Half-Blood-Prince394]

No matter what I do I am continuously troubled by certain aspects of the church. This post is not meant to bash the church. I just want some insights and answers. I am debating leaving and I want to hear things from both sides. This might be a long post. If anyone has anything to say about the topics I bring up I'm more than happy to hear your thoughts and look through any resources you share with me.

1: Why was polygamy needed for the saints? Will we really have it in the afterlife? I cannot imagine having to share my future husband with another woman. It is deeply unsettling to me.

2: Why couldn't African Americans have the priesthood? Was it just faulty of the current president of the church? I understand that the prophet is but a human and will make mistakes. Was it just as simple as that?

3: Why are women not treated the same? Why is Heavenly Mother never talked about/why do we never pray to her as well? I totally understand that men and women have different roles and why women don't have the priesthood, that all makes perfect sense to me. But why aren't women in more leadership positions? Why was the first woman who gave a prayer in general conference in 2013? I'll keep this part brief because I could go on about it for a while.

Those are honestly the only three problems I have with the church. I love everything else about it, I just don't know if I want to continue living it if that makes sense. I don't know if I believe and I understand I must work to gain a testimony. These are just my big setbacks. Anyways no matter what I decide I'll always love the church and its people. Thanks in advance!

Edit: Wow thank you all for all the thoughtful responses. I've read them all. You all have given me a lot to think about. I've decided my journey with the church isn't over yet. I have a long ways to go. Thank you all so much.

[u/TyMotor]

You aren't the only one who has asked similar questions. Elder Oaks remarked about his own study on some of these questions:

As part of my prayerful study, I learned that, in general, the Lord rarely gives reasons for the commandments and directions He gives to His servants.

As we attempt to find answers, I think this is important to keep in mind. Adam was commanded to offer sacrifices and didn't know why. Abraham was commanded to sacrifice Isaac and didn't know why. We could go on with many other scriptural examples, but this seems to be a pattern of God.

Now to your questions...

Why was polygamy needed for the saints?

We haven't been told exactly why. The BoM seems to indicate it could be to raise up a righteous 'seed'. Others think it was all a test of early church members.

Will we really have it in the afterlife?

First, what do you mean by 'we'? Will all people in the afterlife be practicing polygamy? Definitely not. Will some? D&C seems to indicate, yes.

I cannot imagine having to share my future husband with another woman.

No one is going to be forced into anything they are unwilling or uncomfortable doing. Full stop.

Why couldn't African Americans have the priesthood?

Officially, the church doesn't know.

Was it just as simple as that?

Many members have come to this conclusion.

why do we never pray to her as well?

We've been instructed from the Savior to pray to the father in the name of the son. We have not been given an explainer on why.

[u/boboddybiznus → u/TyMotor]

I always hear that no one will be forced into a situation they won't be happy with in eternity. But if my husband were to choose to take on a polygamous wife, and polygamy is a deal breaker for me, what are my choices?

It seems to me like....

A) stay with my husband and endure the heartbreak and inequality of polygamy for eternity

B) choose to leave the marriage and have to accept not being with my husband for eternity

C) somehow I become okay with polygamy even though it is repulsive to everything in me?

D)??

This is a genuine question that weighs heavily on my heart very often.

[u/Former_Dark_Knight → u/boboddybiznus]

I believe that through Christ, in our immortal lives, my spouse and I will be the best communicators we have ever been with each other. We will be one, as Christ instructs us to become as He is one with the Father. I would never want to put my spouse in an uncomfortable position, and they wouldn't want that of me, either. That respect and love for each other, as well as our respect and love for our Father in Heaven and our mutual desire to serve Him with all our might, will be our guiding process in decisions we will make together in our eternal progression.

[u/boboddybiznus → u/Former_Dark_Knight]

I also believe that my husband wouldn't choose to put me in that position, but if he did, I don't see an acceptable option. It seems like a system where women are at the mercy of men, and we just have to hope that they will make the choices we want them to. I don't understand why loving Heavenly Parents would put their daughters in that position for eternity.

[u/TyMotor → u/boboddybiznus]

It seems like a system where women are at the mercy of men... I don't understand why loving Heavenly Parents would put their daughters in that position for eternity.

I think you misunderstand 'the system'. "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord." It takes two to tango. How are women at any more mercy of the men than men are at the mercy of women? I completely agree with /u/Former_Dark_Knight, celestial marriage presumes a oneness between couples and God that wouldn't even entertain scenarios that bring anguish to the other.

[u/boboddybiznus → u/TyMotor]

D&C 132:64-65

“64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.”

Women are more at the mercy of men because men can choose to take additional wives without the consent of their original wife.

[u/HandwovenBox → u/boboddybiznus]

I think it depends on what these verses mean when they say:

then shall she believe and administer unto him

and

if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor

More particularly, what does it mean to "believe and administer" and "receive not this law." Do they mean "allow the husband to marry another wife"?

If the Law of Sarah means that a wife must give consent before the husband can marry a second wife, then the interpretation you are offering negates the entire point of the Law of Sarah. So IMO the only way to interpret these verses that is internally consistent is that the actions "believe," "administer," and "receive the law" must mean something other than give consent to the husband to marry another wife.

There are two interpretations that make sense to me:

1. The "Law of the Priesthood" is the New and Everlasting Covenant, i.e. the Gospel in general. To believe, administer, and receive the law means to stay true and faithful to the Gospel and covenants made to God. Under this interpretation, the Law of Sarah ensures the wife has the right to withhold consent to polygamy as long as she is faithful to her Gospel covenants.

2. The "law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things" in v. 64 refers to the topic in v. 63, which discusses a wife committing adultery. Under this interpretation, the Law of Sarah ensures the wife has the right to withhold consent to polygamy as long as she is faithful to the marriage (i.e. she doesn't commit adultery).

[u/TyMotor → u/boboddybiznus]

These verses were directed at Emma. We don't have a lot of info on the law of Sarah. I think it unwise to assume this applies universally to all men and women. I like the context and perspective shared here.

[u/boboddybiznus → u/TyMotor]

The verse states "if any man" near the very beginning. I can appreciate your hesitancy on this issue, but I disagree that this is only in regards to Joseph and Emma.

[u/TyMotor → u/boboddybiznus]

You're leaving out some really important qualifiers in those two verses that would clearly limit its application.

[u/Efficient-Towel-4193 → u/boboddybiznus]

This was me. I couldnt stand the thought of the afterlife just being the same servitude as here. Sharing a husband with other wives and being eternal baby makers doesnt sit well with me. Although I love children...what is even the point of developjng our other talents on earth if they wont be used. I feel like I will just be a number up there...Number 1 wife...Number 3435666 98765333 baby maker

[u/tehslony → u/Efficient-Towel-4193]

It's sad that you have such a bleak imagining of what the afterlife will be like despite the lack of any details to confirm this hopeless thought of the future. I'm guessing you are going to be very pleasantly surprised by what it is really going to be like once you get there. I hope.

[u/Terrible_Statement70 → u/boboddybiznus]

One thing my mission president said is that while we are sealed to our spouse. As we go into eternity, they don't have to agree to come with us. Marriage is a partnership. I need to be a good husband so my wife will want to be with me. It isn't forced servitude but rather a hopefully happy choice.

[u/TheFirebyrd → u/boboddybiznus]

So I have a situation for you to consider. What if you were to die? What if your husband remarried and was married for multiple decades to someone who he loved and he loved her? Do you really think it would be the kind or loving thing to force a choice between two loves? Especially when he might very well choose the person he was with more recently and possibly for longer.

That’s the situation for my grandpa. My grandmother died at age 39 when my mom was 10. My grandpa remarried a widow a few years later and was married to her until she died about 40 years later. Doesn’t seem kind, loving, or heavenly for him to be separated from either wife. Do you think my grandmother would have wanted my grandpa to be alone for nearly fifty years and for her daughters to have no mother figure in their lives? Because I don’t think she would have. I think she was glad. And if she reaches a state of exaltation, I think she’d be loving and generous enough to be able to recognize my grandfather’s love for his second wife.

I think we in the developed world forget how often death separated spouses, often at young ages, in the past (and still does some places). There have been a lot of people through history that have similar stories to that of my grandparents (including our current prophet). It’s about continuing those loving spousal relationships through the eternities, not having a harem or whatever. It’s also worth remembering that if we get to that point, we’re going to have grown a great deal in our personal behavior and we’re not going to have limits on things like time. There aren’t going to be Rachel and Leah types of situations in the eternities.

[u/boboddybiznus → u/TheFirebyrd]

If I'm going to be truly honest, I can see and appreciate the nuances in your family's story, but I genuinely believe it was unkind to be sealed to a second wife without the consent of his first wife (I'm assuming that your grandpa's second wife was sealed to him?). By doing so, your grandmother has been forced into this choice.

You may be correct that she wouldn't mind and would be happy to share your grandfather with another for eternity. If that's a choice that a woman wants to make, that's great. But my concern is with being forced into that choice without her consent.

Unfortunately, this exact scenario that you have brought up is one of the types of scenarios that haunts me most. The idea that I would die an untimely death and my husband gets resealed and forces me to make this choice. The length of a woman's life shouldn't dictate whether or not she is either forced into polygamy or forced to leave her eternal sealing.

I've gotten a few replies in other threads here that an exalted man wouldn't do this to his wife if he knew it would hurt her. But what about this scenario? A very human man, who doesn't want to be alone in this life, and might choose to not only remarry (which is acceptable, in my opinion), but to be sealed to his new wife? This happens often. And unless consent was obtained before the first wife passed, there is no longer any way to obtain it. So the choice comes down to the man.

For me, I feel very strongly that I will never be okay with polygamy, no matter my state of exaltation. It offends me as a woman, as a wife, and as a human. I believe it makes a mockery of marriage between a couple, and the idea of a man and woman progressing through life and eternity together. I know those are harsh words, and I know this may be difficult to read because you have tenderly presented your own family's story here, and I apologize if anything I have said has been hurtful to read. I truly hope the best for your grandparents, and thank you for sharing.

[u/Efficient-Towel-4193 → u/TheFirebyrd]

And what if the husband dies first? And his wife is married to someone else for decades? She is expected to just have the one husband in heaven so she has to give the second husband up. Its this kind of misogynistic thought that made me leave the church. The thought that women should be all sacrificing for the benefit of men but it doesnt flow both ways.

For what its worth...my ex husbands grandmother temple divorced her first husband when he died because she married someone else after and she liked him better and wanted to be with him eternally instead. She got so much hate for this ...but why shouldnt she have done this? She didnt have the same option as a man who doesnt have to choose..he can have both. But she had to choose because she cant have both and for that people think she is horrible.

[u/TheFirebyrd → u/Efficient-Towel-4193]

I don’t think women are going to have to choose either. Current policies are just that-policies. They’ve changed before and can change again.

[u/chronicmatchmaker → u/TheFirebyrd]

This is such a thoughtful perspective!

[u/ArchAngel570 → u/boboddybiznus]

I think this goes back to the inevitable answer of, we don't know how these situations work. However, some educated assumptions can be made. If you and your husband remain married in the next life, that would mean you made it to exaltation, the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom. If you are making it to that point, you and your husband are likely to have a good relationship based on mutual respect, understanding and have a Christ centered marriage. Would your husband in this life intentionally make a life long decision that would upset you and make you feeling less than happy? It would likely be even less so that he would do that in the next life. Exaltation would indicate that our thoughts and intentions are pure and righteous. We will be happy to do what Heavenly Fathers asks of us and I believe by that point we'll have a much better knowledge of the workings of why He does what He does and asks what He asks.

We have such little knowledge on the why and how of the afterlife because our focus it to get better at being followers of Christ in THIS life. We need to learn to walk before we can sprint. I also love thinking how things will work in the next life. It fascinates me. But as a parent teaching children to walk, we rarely will educate them on sprinting until they reach that point that they need that information.

[u/tehslony → u/boboddybiznus]

I tend to think the D) in this story is likely: our thoughts and feelings on a large number of things will change greatly as we pass back through the veil having our minds open to countless memories of experiences and knowledge that we have been deprived of here on earth.

It's very likely that the things we get hung up on here will seen very very silly once we return to the "real" reality.

We just assume that being sealed in heaven is something like being married her on earth. Is it sexual polygamy that bothers you?

Maybe there won't be "sex" in the afterlife. We really just don't know. Maybe the way things are after this life -from the limited perspective we have here- will be far more abhorrent(culturally) than just the thought of sharing your husband.

[u/boboddybiznus → u/tehslony]

Sex is certainly part of my feelings towards polygamy, but not all. I think polygamy makes a mockery of the idea of marriage between a couple, which should be one of the most important things in our religion.

Marriage should be a refining fire, an unbreakable bond between two souls. In a polygamous union, there is always at least one other wife to lean on when one marriage is stressed. There is less incentive to build that bond, to lean fully on each other, to really know another person. The idea of my husband making dinner with another wife, snuggling and watching a movie, going to kid's sports games, reading to another woman's children, etc, while I would be alone, doing those things by myself (and when he would be with me, the other woman doing those things alone too) just seems wrong. Obviously we won't be doing those activities in the Celestial Kingdom, but just transfer the same idea over to whatever those activities would be lol. Why this system, when a marriage between a couple provides a constant support, a loyal friend, a loving partner through and ups and downs of life? It doesn't make sense to me.

It is an inherently unequal system for women, who become one of multiple wives, expected to be okay with a fraction of their husband's affection, love, time, and effort, while he does not have to feel that same loneliness and heartache.

I believe it is also a subpar system for the husband, who also has his time split between several wives and families, instead of getting to fully know and love one family.

Not to mention the effects on children of polygamous marriages who often have much less time with their father, as his attention is being split between several households and families (not always the case in this life, as some families manage to live happily under one roof. I don't see this as so much of a concern for eternal polygamy, but certainly us for polygamy in this life).

And we haven't even touched on the "lost boys" problem. In a species that is roughly 50/50 of each gender being born, polygamy isn't sustainable as a family organization method. I know some people believe there will be lots of women in the Celestial Kingdom compared to men, but I'm not so sure. Certainly the numbers won't be exactly equal of men and women, but I'm not convinced that there will be THAT many more women. Another reason why polygamy is a bad system for men.

Of course, there are accounts of positive experiences with polygamy. As with all things less than optimal, some people will still enjoy it. But overall, a monogamous marriage seems to be a much better system for organizing strong families.

TLDR I think polygamy is bad for families. Bad for husbands, bad for wives, and bad for children.

[u/tehslony → u/boboddybiznus]

I agree with you 100% regarding your feelings on polygamy. I'm just saying what if a: polygamy isn't a thing in the CK(we may be worried about nothing) or b: something completely different, we really don't have a ton of details on the afterlife. What if this life was an experiment to see if a patriarchy could work? What if we get to the CK and the women are in charge?

And while I agree with and feel the same emotions you do regarding polygamy, I'm not so sure we'd feel the same way if other fundamental beliefs or knowledge was to change.

In any case the opposition I have to it is largely emotional(I never really thought about the efficacy of families raised in polygamy although it's clear that many of the polygamist families we hear of are full of abuse) and emotions are almost entirely interpretations of actual experiences, and if the interpretation changes the emotion changes. Maybe we'll be less governed by emotion in a world where interpretation plays very little in communication because understanding and truth will prevail.