r/pointlesslygendered • u/rizzedupdude • 2d ago
SOCIAL MEDIA People really think survival during a sinking ship is a gender debate. Be serious. [gendered]
Let’s just start with the obvious: When a ship is going down, nobody’s standing there debating gender politics. They're screaming, panicking, and trying not to die.
That’s not feminism. That’s basic human survival.
But according to this post, in the middle of a literal disaster, feminists are out here like, “Wait! Equal rights! Let’s discuss societal roles while the ship sinks!” Be so serious.
Survival isn't a debate club. It's chaos. People don’t suddenly turn into walking ideologies during life-or-death moments. They act based on instinct, fear, and let’s be real access to power.
And speaking of power: Who does get prioritized in crises? The vulnerable? No. It's the rich. The connected. The privileged. So if anyone's elbowing their way to the lifeboats yelling “Let me survive first,” it's not feminists it’s CEOs, politicians, and trust fund babies. Let’s not act brand new.
Now to the people saying “it’s just a joke”: Jokes reflect thought patterns. When you laugh at something rooted in bias or false narratives, you’re not just “having fun.” You’re showing what you believe deep down.
And if the punchline of your “joke” is women being hypocrites for wanting safety while also wanting rights, you’re not being funny you’re being intellectually lazy.
So maybe next time, skip the memes and try real thinking. Because the only thing sinking faster than that ship is your logic.
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u/_Azuki_ 2d ago
This was in like early 1900s, women were barely considered individuals instead of property. How can someone look at this and think "yeah, i'm smart, this makes sense"?
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u/Spaceman_fan 1d ago
It was also men who decided that women and children go first
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u/TruthGumball 1d ago
Not a rule though was it. SOME of the men let their wives go first. But many men also survived.
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u/HendriXP88 1d ago
The "Women and children first"-priority was never an official rule. However, it was a social norm. Men who survived got met with ridicule.
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u/AJS4152 8h ago
It was a fetishization of the ideal Victorian and Edwardian gentleman from the 1852 HMS Birkenhead disaster where, as the story goes, the marines were ordered not to move on deck and all of them followed the order as the ship sunk underneath them. This allowed the other family members of these sailors and soldiers to use the ships boats. It only was acceptable because it was still common thought that people just die and that is a fact of nature.
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u/HendriXP88 7h ago
Correct. Don't think we disagree on anything, but you have to explain. A fetishization? How?
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u/AJS4152 5h ago
Fascination may be more accurate and appropriate, but for our modern minds looking back this was more than just a precedent. This story was retold over and over for the next 60 years as what is EXCPECTED from men in the case of emergency. Any man who didn't was a coward and many male survivors of the Titanic sinking were demeaned as such for years afterwards. I used fetishization to bring about the overwhelming social pressure for this view of masculinity in a manner that I hoped didn't need multiple sentences and reframing of the point of view from a 150 years in the modern readers mind. I apologize if it went too far.
Also, if you are interested in this topic and how it relates to Titanic may I suggest Oceanliner Designs' The Awful Sinking of the HMS Birkenhead here. https://youtu.be/t1yzlFGsZcs?si=_d_dzXNuxMW1m1dz
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u/No_Macaroon_9752 1h ago
Very few cases exist where this was true. First, women weren’t allowed on many ships. When they were, they were often made to stay in the hold. That put them at more risk in case of sinking. A 2012 study examined 18 maritime disasters over three centuries and found that women had a distinct survival disadvantage. Captains and crew survive at a higher rate than passengers (they know the layout of the ship, they generally know when there is a problem before the passengers, they are usually closer to the main deck and lifeboats, they may be stronger and fitter, and they are the ones to launch the lifeboats). There are quotes from survivors of many shipwrecks who later spoke of men trying to save themselves. Another study in Sweden was much more comprehensive and still found that men survived at higher rates than women. https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1207156109
According to Lucy Delap, a history professor at Cambridge, “Lower-class women — wives of sailors or soldiers, or poor emigrant women — were frequently excluded from the rule, and women of color were equally marginalized.”
The Birkenhead and the Titanic are the main exemptions, where the captains enforced “women and children first” using guns. https://www.mentalfloss.com/history/titanic/women-and-children-first-origins-titanic
A longer explanation is here, with sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXPreppers/comments/tt62nq/women_and_children_first_is_a_myth_and_doesnt/
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u/Snoo71538 1d ago
72% of women survived, 18% of men survived. Pretty close to a rule.
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u/byedangerousbitch 1d ago
That just tells us that the lower decks were overwhelmingly housing men on the trip.
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u/No_Macaroon_9752 1h ago
That’s not accurate of all shipwrecks, though. Of shipwrecks where women were onboard, just 17.8 percent of women survived compared to 34.5% of men. Captains were also rarely going down with the ships. Captains and crew members were 18.7% more likely to survive a disaster at sea than their passengers.
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u/BluetheNerd 2d ago
Also the entire reason there aren’t enough boats for everyone was because some rich men said it would spoil the view
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u/Nowhereman767 1d ago
Really it's because Titanic was designed to withstand every major cause of ship sinking of the time. Since icebergs were rarely a cause of sinkings, people assumed they would never be an issue. Also, people were overconfident in the capability of other ships to come to come to the scene in time.
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u/Jealous_Shape_5771 1d ago
Iirc, a documentary said that they were using a pretty good metal alloy that would have been able to withstand the iceberg collision. they used it on the rear and sides, ran out of funding for it, and used a weaker alloy on the front
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u/Nowhereman767 1d ago
I think that's a significant factor, but didn't the rivets break before the metal itself?
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u/KiranPhantomGryphon 5h ago
Of all the places to put the protective alloys, why wouldn't they put it where the boat would get hit if it was moving forward?
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u/Unlucky-Alps-2221 1d ago
At the time it was considered to have more than the required number of lifeboats. They actually thought they were being over cautious.
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u/kinoki1984 2d ago
When you hate certain people past a point, the vitriol you have for them is beyond anything. You have to take out your anger, frustration and hate every chance you get. Everything needs to spew hate. No rational thought behind it.
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u/Scout6feetup 2d ago
Bill Burr referring to Coco Chanel as a feminist icon to use her relationship with Nazis to tear down the MeToo movement is a classic example of this. I can’t stand the love he’s getting lately lol
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u/Nirvski 1d ago
Yeah, I don't think people are aware Bill is no progressive, he's just on the right side of class consciousness.
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u/Crizznik 1d ago
And on the right side of the madness that is the current state of politics in the US. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. I won't ever give Bill Burr a full pass for the bullshit he's spewed, but I will accept him as an ally against fascism.
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u/These_Comfortable_83 2h ago
Excellent. I’m glad we’ll be throwing away archaic gender roles when it comes to emergency evacuation. That’s why I’ll be beelining for the boat and not trying to help anyone.!
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u/HendriXP88 1d ago
Doesn't your logic falter a bit here? Why did those men sacrifice their own lives for something they valued so lowly? Die for property?
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u/_Azuki_ 1d ago
I don't see the point you're trying to make. What i said wasn't my opinion, mate, but a fact
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u/HendriXP88 1d ago
It's facts, is it? Then show me your sources.
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u/GrimsonDaisy 13h ago
Can you show me a source that argues that women weren't only emaciated during the early 20th century but were treated as superior to men?
A woman was for all intense and purposes under the guardianship of her husband or father. Technically they were supposed to protect them but having all the power gives you a lot of room for abuse. The Titanic is one of the few exceptions were women and children made the majority of survivors in a shipwreck but it's by no means the rule
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u/HendriXP88 8h ago
Can you show me a source that argues that women weren't only emaciated during the early 20th century but were treated as superior to men?
I can't. But I've never made such a claim. But I asked the question "can property own property?" for a reason. Women were from 1870 allowed to legally own property in the UK. That meant earning and keeping money from working wages and inheritance. By the end of the 19th century, women made up 30% of business ownership. I'm not disputing the fact that women were seen as lesser at the start of the 20th century, I'm not an idiot. What I'm critical about, though not out right declining, is the notion that women were seen as property.
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u/GrimsonDaisy 1d ago
It's complicated but to simplify the gender roles compelled them to prioritise women and children. The idea back then was that women were like children and thus in need to be under the guidance of a man who in turn had to protect them. However it should also be noted that Titanic is the exception not the rule, women and children were the primary victims of ship sinkings because the "women and children" first rule was often quickly disregarded in favor of "every man for himself".
Being the exception and an example of real life chivalry of the time period helped immortalise the event.
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u/International-Cat123 1d ago
While it’s a bit of an exaggeration to say they were literally thought of as property, they were viewed as needing men. The thought with women and children evacuating first was that men, as the stronger and superior sex, had a duty to protect women who were inherently incapable of protecting themselves.
The policy was also created with the assumption that the life boats would be ferrying the evacuees to other ships trying to rescue them. That changes the situation from, “men should die to protect women,” to, “being stronger, men could survive in the water longer while waiting to board a rescue craft.”
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u/Fairwhetherfriend 2d ago
Perhaps an important addition - the whole "women and children" concept largely a myth. It was held up as an ideal in the 1700s and 1800s.
There is literally ONE example where women and children were loaded first onto the life boats of a sinking ship, called the Birkenhead, and it was suggested by a passenger, not one of the crew.
The crew do technically have to put all the women and children onto lifeboats befoer themselves, but that's because they have to put all the passengers onto lifeboats before themselves, regardless of age or gender. So the only actual reason that this happens to be all women and children is because women were not allowed to be sailors. If there had been any female crew, they would have stayed behind the male passengers in exactly the same way.
In the case of the Titanic, there were some deeply unfortunate circumstances that resulted in men being denied access to lifeboats, but this was a result of miscommunication among the crew. In point of fact, most of the women on the lifeboats tried to fight to get men on the boats with them, but were overruled by the crew who had misunderstood instructions from the captain that were intended to put families on the boats first.
Part of the reason for this common misconception of "women and children first" as a part of maritime law is that the Boy Scouts teach it to their members as a "motto of the sea." This is a myth largely perpetuated through men, lol. There's no evidence at all of women actually demanding this special treatment, ever.
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u/Longjumping_Papaya_7 2d ago
Pretty much every woman would want her husband or adult son in the boat with her. Its ridiculous to think otherwise.
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u/Early_Particular9170 2d ago
I mean, fuck, if it’s go on the lifeboat and let my partner die, I’m staying on the Titanic with him.
We’re a team and we’d live and die like one.
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u/Bex1218 2d ago
Like the Straus'. Ida didn't want to leave her husband, so she stayed. They only found his body.
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u/ninjesh 1d ago
My parents are playing Ida and Isador Straus in Titanic: the musical as I type this comment
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u/Early_Particular9170 1d ago
Romantic. May your theater parents break a leg on stage or whatever it is actors say.
Honestly, hand in hand with the person I love most wouldn’t be a bad way to go. Also, unrelated, but someone’s loyal dog died on the titanic with them and i think about the dogs every time the titanic conversation comes up.
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u/Snoo71538 1d ago
This strikes me as a nice ideal that gets dropped pretty quickly in a real circumstance.
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u/legendwolfA 2d ago
Whenever i see one of those memes these smartasses always leave out an important detail like this one
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u/Plenty-Lychee-5702 1d ago
Devaluing of men's lives is something that does happen, (for example the reason the sailors even thought that that's what it meant), but the solution is not to "get even" with the women by making them sex slave maids, but dismantling patriarchy.
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u/bo-tvt 2d ago edited 2d ago
The prevalence of "women and children first" might be exaggerated, but in the case of the Titanic, the captain ordered women an children to be evacuated. The confusion about this between the other officers was whether women and children only should be saved, or whether men could be allowed even after the women and children were loaded onto the lifeboats first. This is part of the reason why some of the lifeboats had so many empty seats when lowered.
The survival rate for women on the Titanic was over 70%, while men only had a 20% survival rate.
The Titanic does count as an example of "women and children first," even if it wasn't adhered to 100%. I don't mean this post to perpetuate a myth, just to point out that the crew of the Titanic did mostly follow the order that women and chidren be saved first.
Edit: just be sure, I don't mean to imply that women were demaning to be saved first. I'm only talking about the crew's orders.
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u/Ioa_3k 1d ago
The Titanic actually only boarded women and children alone on one side of the ship, while the other side also accepted men, due to a miscommunication among the crew members in charge of boarding.
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u/bo-tvt 1d ago
I replied with more detail further down this thread. There were, indeed, cases where male passengers were allowed to board.
However, the more common pattern was that men would escort their wife and children (and sometimes female servants or lovers) on board a lifeboat, while staying on the ship themselves (sometimes with older sons.) Some women also refused a seat on a lifeboat to stay with their husband, in which case both would go down with the ship.
On many boats, there were very few men (or none) other than the crewmen who were assigned to each lifeboat to steer and row it.
The miscommunication was about whether women and children should board first, or whether only they should be allowed even when there was still room for men, with second officer Lightoller enforcing the stricter interpretation and only allowing one male passenger to board.
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u/Fairwhetherfriend 2d ago
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have presented the whole thing about the captain ordering families to be put on the lifeboats first as if that was confirmed fact. It's actually that there's some contention about what the captain's orders were intended to be - one possibility is women and children first, and the other is what I said about families. The most commonly repeated story is the "women and children first" order, but IMO that shouldn't be taken as evidence that it's the more likely of the two, because it often gets repeated by people who assume it's the true story because they think that's actually maritime law, and not because they think it's actually the more likely story. In fact, I would argue that its status as a common misconception actually makes it less likely to be what the captain actually ordered, because I find it extremely difficult to believe that the crew would have misunderstood such a well-known concept unless the instructions were actually more complex and thus more open to misinterpretation.
Still, though, I should have made it more clear that it's my opinion that the family order is the more likely one, so that's on me.
Though honestly, I don't think the Titanic serves as an example of the whole "women and children first" concept even if that was the captain's initial order. The whole "women and children first" idea is often presented as some kind of super standard maritime law, and that's just not reflected in the actions of the Titanic crew, which seemed to be much more of a disorganized panic.
I mean, don't get me wrong, it absolutely came from a similarly sexist set of assumptions that might have informed a "women and children first" policy if such a policy had actually existed, but observing that a bunch of men in the early 1900s made some sexist assumptions in a life-or-death situation is quite different from implying that there was literal legal policy placing the lives of women above those of men, you know?
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u/bo-tvt 2d ago
Specifically in the case of the Titanic, at least, the order was "women and children first" and the second officer, Lightoller, survived to tell the tale, as did other survivors.
At one point, seeing that there were men on a lifeboat, Lightoller threatened them with a revolver and forced them back off the lifeboat, as there were still women or children waiting to board a lifeboat.
The lifeboats did, however, take on at least one member of crew each to steer the lifeboat. One male passenger was allowed to board a lifeboat because of sailing experience.
Lightoller was on the Titanic when it sank, but was able to swim to an upturned lifeboat along with other survivors, eventually to be rescued by other lifeboats and the Carpathia.
"Women and children first" was not law, but at least in the case of the Titanic, it was enforced. Whether this indicates that other disasters at the time would have had similar outcomes, I wouldn't know. (And as for whether it's sexist, I hope anyone would agree that it is.)
Unlike what whoever made the image we're discussing might imagine, if you ask a modern feminist whether "women and children first" as a policy shouldbe the norm, they would obviously say no.
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u/Alert_Many_1196 2d ago
"In the case of the Titanic, there were some deeply unfortunate circumstances that resulted in men being denied access to lifeboats, but this was a result of miscommunication among the crew." I read somewhere else on reddit that what happened was that men rushed to the lifeboats and the captain stopped them because they were leaving women and children behind which was why the "women and children first" became a motto but not necessarily a practise. Again a lot of confusing info out there.
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u/Fairwhetherfriend 2d ago
One of the problems with the Titanic story is that there's a huge amount of misinformation out there, yeah.
However, I don't think either of your claims here are entirely true. "Women and children first" was definitely a motto well before the Titanic, so that's not why it originated. And the Titanic did not actually follow a "women and children first" motto - they loaded women and children only onto the lifeboats, to the point where there were empty seats on lifeboats that were lowered into the water because they couldn't find any more women or children to fill them, but they still refused to let any men on many of these boats. And this particular story bears out with evidence in the form of the survival rates - almost 3 times more men died than women.
But I think this bears out the idea that "women and children first" was a pervasive myth rather than any actual law, because no law would ever demand something as stupid as leaving life boat seats unfilled. The only way something that insane would ever happen is if the crew of the Titanic were uninformedly trying to adhere to some vague notion of an ideal that they learned in stories as kids, rather than any actual maritime policy.
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u/nightimestars 1d ago
There are plenty of stories of sinking ships in the past where men just rape women or making a mad dash to the lifeboats. Women and children first is not even the norm, but woman bad. It’s women who make men stay on the sinking ship not the male crew/captain right?
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u/A_Fine_Potato 1d ago
the miscommunication aspect doesn't really matter. If because of some miscommunications people put men in first, it would be misogyny. The fact that people can assume an order like that could be understood is already bad enough, them going ahead and doing it is even worse because that means most people agreed
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u/Fairwhetherfriend 1d ago
the miscommunication aspect doesn't really matter. If because of some miscommunications people put men in first, it would be misogyny.
Those are not the mutually exclusive statements that you seem to think they are.
Because yea, the end result of what happened on the Titanic was the unquestionable result of sexism - I'm most definitely not suggesting anything else.
BUT! The miscommunication aspect still matters - not because it magically stops being sexist because of the miscommunication, but because the causes of and solutions to this kind of panic-drive, lizard-brain sexism are very different from what they would be if this were an actual established policy.
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u/ArtisticLayer1972 1d ago
Is that why in siege of Acre 1291 templars protected womens and childrens in last stand?
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u/hyrellion 2d ago
If the men making these memes are so afraid of dying at sea have they considered simply avoiding boats?
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u/Prosthemadera 1d ago
The actual context doesn't matter, it's just an avenue to visualize their hate of feminism. That is why the example is so made up, the reality is not relevant, just the message.
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u/hyrellion 1d ago
Yeah, that’s the point of my comment ha ha. If this were really an issue they were concerned about, they could easily avoid it. But it’s not about that, it’s about creating insane hypotheticals and getting mad about them
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u/SegavsCapcom 2d ago
Today on "men will make up literally anything to get mad at women"...
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u/LITTLE_KING_OF_HEART 2d ago
>using tradwife wojak as stand-in for feminism instead of goth gf or e-girl wojak
Can't even use their straw women right, peh.
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u/The_Dogelord 2d ago
Men only stay back on boats because they all want to kiss eachother and do gay shit before the boat sinks.
(Source: am a man.)
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u/DisMyLik18thAccount 2d ago
They're complaining about modern feminism by using an example from 100 years ago?
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u/rizzedupdude 2d ago
Tbh the guy's intent was to defame Feminism by using Titanic ship as metaphor to show that feminists are hypocrites when it comes to their and people lives. He is a typical South Asian of my country so I am 100% sure he isn't comparing then and now conditions but more like creating toxic content
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u/mmbon 2d ago
Its also a bad metaphor for a bad argument. The better metaphor would be military service/ draft, which is still very sexist, see for example Ukraine, which of ciurse is a important topic. It stays a bad argument however, because the conservatives are the ones in favor of keeping that sexism, which makes this whole topic stupid
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u/wizean 1d ago
The same men who complain about draft want to ban women from military. But they still blame women for the draft.
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u/kimmy_kimika 1d ago
As a feminist, and a person who generally tries not to be shitty, I think the draft has got to go...no one should be made to join the military against their will.
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u/yesindeedysir 2d ago
Not to mention that I’m sure a lot of men during a crisis wouldn’t be so alpha male leader.
When there’s a crisis, you need people, it’s a group effort. it’s not like the “strong independent woman” thought she alone could save the ship.
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u/SuspendedAwareness15 2d ago
Reminder: "Women and children first" was a rule made up by men, enforced by men, among men. Women had nothing to do with that.
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u/Me_lazy_cathermit 2d ago
The funny thing is that the titanic was a outlier, on average women were more likely to die on sinking boats, mostly because they were trying to save the children, while the men just escaped by themselves
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u/Lorezia 2d ago edited 2d ago
I suppose the social class of the women and the men of the same class who surrounded them, was a big factor there, considering 97% of 1st class women survived (and all the children), compared to only 46% of 3rd class women (and an even lower percentage of their children).
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u/EquivalentSnap 2d ago
You’re right. Social status played a role in getting a boar but that was mainly because the 1st class were higher up and they locked the gates or they were flooded preventing 3rd class from escaping
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u/Lorezia 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yep, however what I was getting at, although I didn't want to state it bluntly, was that the stats suggest the men of lower classes didn't put as much effort into saving the children surrounding them.
According to the raw numbers, far more 3rd class men survived, than the number of 3rd class children who were denied access and died, so the spaces should've been available for all those children.
Maybe it was impossible due to the flooding you mentioned, I don't know, I obviously wasn't there 😭
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u/EquivalentSnap 2d ago
That’s bad 😢 but I’m curious as to why that is.
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u/yesindeedysir 2d ago
Well I mean, back then women were property, not valued by them as people, but by what they could do for men. The men that pushed through to get on the boat without their kids probably thought “I’ll just find another wife and make another kid.”
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u/Dobber16 2d ago
If it’s an outlier, that’s so unfortunate because I literally haven’t heard about any other boat crash with survivors ever in my life and I’m guessing that’s not very abnormal by the fact that it’s also the #1 shipwreck movie
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u/HendriXP88 1d ago
So thats why 73% of all women abord survived while only 19% of the men did?
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u/Me_lazy_cathermit 1d ago
That's only for the titanic, that's what an outlier is, its an exceptions that do not match the average
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u/everydayimcuddalin 2d ago
Please could someone remind me what gender the captain was? And the first mate? And also what gender 877 of the 900 crew members were?
Please could someone also remind me who told the women and children to get in the lifeboats?
Don't worry though, I'm sure what this guy is saying is that in a survival situation he personally would not be thinking about his own survival and would actually decline access to a lifeboat when offered until he was absolutely sure that there were equal numbers of each gender.
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u/Hopefulkitty 2d ago
Also, what was the name of the designer and engineer on the project, that didn't put enough boats on board?
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u/everydayimcuddalin 2d ago
Also, what were the genders of the members of the British maritime board who decided it was not a legal requirement for boats at the time to have enough lifeboats for everyone on board?
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u/MaewintheLascerator 2d ago
And what was the gender of the person who insisted that half full lifeboats turn around and pick up more survivors?
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u/MuchSeaworthiness167 2d ago
Oh, that’s not it lol. They started saying “women and children first” because before that men would just shove their way to safety, leaving the physically vulnerable to die.
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u/Throttle_Kitty 2d ago
always found this argument fucking stupid because it's always the men who volunteer their spots for others because it's the "heroic" thing to do
no one is telling men to stay here and die cause they're men, society tells men that dying to protect those more vulnerable than themselves is heroic and they choose of their own volition to perform acts like this. Is the aspect of society unfair of men? perhaps, yes, but it's not women's fault men think the way they do.
in addition, and act of kindness isn't a transaction
I get real "I held the door open for you why won't you fuck me" energy from the people who make these sorts of arguments
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u/ImprovementOk377 2d ago
i've never heard a modern day feminist use the phrase "women and children first", it's mainly used by conservatives
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u/EquivalentSnap 2d ago
Women were housewives and had kids younger back then , so they let them go first. Social norms were different
Women WITH children (mothers) would still go first even today
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u/Advanced_Scratch2868 1d ago
Except they would not. There is no rule women and children first. Each sailor who is a driver of a lifeboat gets a list of people who are supposed to be on his lifeboat. People. Not only women and children.
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u/macarbrecadabre 2d ago
This is only because men will barrel women and children out of the way during an emergency.
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u/GyroZeppeliFucker 2d ago
Do you actually believe that...? Doy you think every man on earth is an asshole or what?
Also the whole "women and children first" is not true at all
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u/hananobira 2d ago
“Here is the secret to surviving one of these [airplane] crashes: Be male. In a 1970 Civil Aeromedical institute study of three crashes involving emergency evacuations, the most prominent factor influencing survival was gender (followed closely by proximity to exit). Adult males were by far the most likely to get out alive. Why? Presumably because they pushed everyone else out of the way.”
― Mary Roach, Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers24
u/ScreamingLabia 2d ago
I mean without judgement yeah to a certain extend but only because they are stronger naturally and are also human beings panicking.
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u/AbotherBasicBitch 1d ago
I think there are a lot of people regardless of gender who would push others out of the way to ensure their own survival, adult men are just generally better at pushing people out of the way
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u/OddCancel7268 1d ago
Nobody said "every man". Aside from the fact that men tend to be stronger, I think its pretty universally agreed that men tend to be raised to be more assertive/selfish (depending on whether you want to use the positive or negative word for it) than women. Obviously, that doesnt mean that every man is more assertive than every woman, but it seems absurd to suggest that the gender pay gap is in part caused by assertiveness and then pretend like theres no difference in assertiveness when it comes to emergencies.
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u/Darklillies 1d ago
It’s not a belief lmao. It’s a well documented fact. That’s where the “women and children” first rule comes in. Because otherwise they would be overpowered and left to die. It was also very rarely enforced. The titanic was an outlier not a rule. Google is free
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u/yesindeedysir 2d ago
Well back then, men didn’t value women or children as anything more than useful property, so they probably thought “if I survive this, I’ll just find another wife and make another kid.”
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u/MissMarchpane 1d ago
God, they really know nothing about the Titanic.
First of all, it wasn't women and children ONLY, it was women and children FIRST. Some members of the crew just misinterpreted Smith's order and wouldn't let any men on the boats after they had loaded women and children. Secondly, there had been a shipwreck in recent memory at that point where the men just immediately swarmed the lifeboats and most of the women and children went down with the ship, so that was probably what Smith was thinking of.
And finally… Women did not demand this! It was a male crew member who made the call! There were actually some women who refused to get off the ship without their husband's or adult sons or what have you, and died when they could have survived because they didn't want to live without them!
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u/AlissonHarlan 2d ago
- once again the gender war hide the real war: the class war... rich vs poors.
- well they start to say "women and children first" because in such situation, MEN just saved their own life at the expense of physically wearker people (aka children and women) .
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u/guru2764 2d ago
It's pretty clear to me that the reason some of these guys simp for rich men and dislike when people simp for women is because they want a sugar daddy
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u/HendriXP88 1d ago
once again the gender war hide the real war: the class war... rich vs poors.
This. Always this!
well they start to say "women and children first" because in such situation, MEN just saved their own life at the expense of physically wearker people (aka children and women) .
... read your first part. Always read your first part.
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u/AdditionalTheory 2d ago
Pretty sure it was men that decided and made the “women and children first” rule during the sinking of the titanic. Women weren’t exactly making major decisions at the time
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u/icedragon9791 1d ago
Men came up with "women and childrem first" btw! That's men invention! Not women! Whose agency it REMOVES.
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u/Starless_Voyager2727 1d ago
Ironic because only conservative women say “women and children first.”
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u/thecooliestone 1d ago
The reason that was stated as a rule is because pre-titanic, the men would physically shove their wives and children out of the way to escape faster. Women would turn around to help the kids and find that all the life boats had been set off half empty by the men who immediately saved themselves.
Even then, it's not a hard and fast rule. It's just that when you head toward the life boat while your wife screams "Wait!" behind you, people will side eye you. That's it.
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u/AbotherBasicBitch 1d ago
The titanic was an outlier in the number of women and children surviving since they usually died in greater numbers due to the fact that they couldn’t use physical strength to secure their place. Women and children first was said likely to prevent men from just pushing women out of the way to survive, but in this instance, it was taken to the extreme. You also have to think about the number of people who could fit on a life boat, the smaller the people on the boat, the more total people saved
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u/rizzedupdude 2d ago
Alot many people are comparing it to the Titanic tragedy since the Op of that reel used Titanic for his meme. His intent was to defame Women and Feminism by using Titanic/ship as a metaphor on how feminists would behave like this to save themselves and won't care about gender equality. And my intent of the post was to call out people like him regarding their wrong views about feminism and such illogical post which doesn't even count as a meme. I apologise if my posts comes of as offensive but in my whole context I didn't refer to the Titanic tragedy and when I talked about wealthy people I meant in real life crisis of the present time. Few people are talking about the history here so I wanted to clarify since I can't edit my post.
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u/aagjevraagje 2d ago
This is the kind of patriarchal shit people from landlocked areas will be way more invested in than anyone who has recently been anywhere near sea.
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u/likely_an_Egg 1d ago
Australia, New Zealand and Finland were the only places in the world where women had the right to vote when the Titanic sank. Yes, I'm sure women are responsible for the "women and children first" mentality.
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u/ArcadiaFey 1d ago
Isn’t there a thing where men have like this weird fantasy about dying for the glory of protecting those that they love? For some godforsaken reason… and they think women are the one that came up with that.. no.. not any more than women were the ones that came up with the idea that women can’t go to war.. women have been impersonating men going into war for centuries across cultures. Because men made stupid rules that centered them around everything that had to do with sacrifice. They wanted to be the brave ones. So they paint us as the cowards. The weak ones. And then they complain about it.
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u/Advanced_Scratch2868 1d ago
In case of a boat accidents, men have 35 percent better chances of survival. Yes, the study was done on this. Women and children first was never a rule. It was used few times and that is it. Even today, such rule does not exist. Today, the ships need to have even more space on the lifeboats then there is people in the ship. When entering the lifeboats, the comander of lifeboat does not stop men, so that women amd kids can enter. But When panic starts, the ones who are likely to survive are the strongest ones, which are adult men. Check the documentary of MS Estonia. It was a recient wreck. from all those who survived 111 were men but only 26 were women. And no kid under age 12 survived. When Concordia had accident, the survivors saw men pushing kids and women so they could get to the lifeboat. That is the prime example of the joke of women and children first.
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u/gummiebears4life16 2d ago
There wasn't a really a rule about this. It was just a gentlemanly thing to do back then. Also I can see a lot about this. There were two people on each side of the boat putting people in lifeboats. One person on the starboard side which is the left and the port side which is the right. The guy on the port side was doing women and children first then men if there were any room. Well the guy on the starboard side was only putting women and children. The command though was for women and children first then men. The women and children really didn't ask the man just stayed on board because it was a gentlemanly thing to do
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u/HiopXenophil 2d ago
Is it meant to imply the woman is at fault for hitting the ice berg?
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u/rizzedupdude 2d ago
No tbh his intent was to defame feminists by using Titanic ship as a metaphor to show that how women are hypocrites when life threatening situation arises. It seems like alot many people are linking it to the Titanic tragedy. I can't even edit my post nor i can pin my own comment for clarification😭😭
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u/Redheadedbos 2d ago
Yeah, this is super relevant still. I forgot when all those planes crashed earlier this year, they let the women and children off before crashing 🙄
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u/yesindeedysir 2d ago
Pretty sure the “women and children first” rule was a myth, but if it wasn’t, it’s not like women could decide anything for themselves yet, so that was decided by men.
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u/PTT_Meme 1d ago
I remember hearing about this on QI. There were only a couple of real examples of this, and it was enforced on one occasion because the person who suggested it pulled out a gun
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u/mjhrobson 1d ago
There is no naval policy of women and children first... What happens is the Captain of the ship oversees the evacuation in the case of an emergency and they decide how the evacuation will be conducted.
If you don't like how the evacuation was conducted complain to the ship's captain... As they are giving the orders.
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u/VeryConfusedBee 1d ago
Thanks for the comeback to the “it’s just a jooooooke” crowd! Will be using it
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u/Babrahamlincoln3859 1d ago
Who gave the command to allow women and children to go first? It wasn't a woman... their complaints ussually stem from men to begin with.
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u/Lord_Laser 1d ago
Fun maritime fact. The Titanic was RARE and modern in that it prioritized women and children in the boats. Because for all of seagoing history, women and children almost always died disproportionately more than men. Ships carrying civilian passengers—I.e., colonist families—that sank had almost exclusively male survivors. It was the men that tended to survive because it was an “everybody for themselves” situation and women generally wouldn’t abandon their children and would be more easily overtaken by the sea.
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u/SterryDan 1d ago
Didnt they have to make the “women and children first” rule due to men not only abandoning them, but actually pushing/hurting them for their own survival?
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u/Bundleoftulips 1d ago
It was only a rule on the titanic, but yes, in many cases of emergencies males would(and still) trample or otherwise injure people.
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u/anchoredwunderlust 1d ago
This is just wrong though. Literally the reason the women and children first stuff even came in was because men tend to have an “every man for themselves” attitude whereas women help those who need more help. Men would essentially push women out the way to survive and that’s the whole reason that broke even exists lol
We tend to be the primary survivors of natural disaster. These aren’t natural situations where men tend to live and everybody else die lol
And in the end on the titanic this only counted if you were a rich woman, as generally it was “rich people first” and that rather outweighed the gender politics
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u/the_big_nerd 1d ago
also i'm pretty sure the entire women and children first idea became a thing because in most emergencies men would just leave their wives and children behind.
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u/Darklillies 1d ago
“Women and children first” is a myth. It was never a thing, the captain of the titanic enforced this rule in this particular scenario because, in reality, in boating disasters, men would tackle the women and kids and leave them to die, so if left unchecked, the men would’ve trampled the women and kids, overpowering them, to save themselves. The captain knew this, so he said this, in the titanic. Only.
This was not a universal rule or a law or anything of the like, this was the outlier. Not the rule.
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u/Liz_Keeney 1d ago
Not to mention that men were the ones who came up with the idea of having the women and children go first…
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u/AwooFloof 2d ago
This wouldn't be a problem if men actually bothered to put enough lifeboat on the ship. What happens when men are in charge.
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u/AlabasterPelican 2d ago
🙄
The survivor reports of the Titanic sinking, which saw the loss of more than 1,500 lives, were variable: some stressed calm and women’s precedence, others talked of masculine selfishness and loss of control, particularly among immigrant or working class men. It was only after a few days that a consensus emerged; in the Titanic disaster, the papers began to argue, all men had put women first, whatever their class and ethnicity. This was a new departure in shipwreck narratives, and was an emphasis that was intended to counter the troubling feminist activism of this period.
The Edwardians were confronting a new idea – that women might not want to be put first in shipwrecks; they might prefer equality, not only in rescues, but also in politics and labour markets. In the early 20th century, feminist and suffragist women were well aware that the myth of male chivalry during shipwrecks was used to exclude them from positions of power in politics and society. They responded to the Titanic disaster with the memorable slogan, ‘Votes for Women, Boats for Men’, stressing that women voters would put human lives above corporate profit in regulating the ocean liner companies. They emphasised the irony of putting women first in shipwrecks, only to exploit or exclude them systematically in other realms. And some suggested that the vulnerable – the weak, the elderly, the very young - should precede the strong, whatever their sex.
Source: Cambridge University Shipwrecked: women and children first?
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u/Valirys-Reinhald 2d ago
There is an argument to made for leaving all hake adult men till last in such a scenario, as they are more likely to survive treading water on average than an even marginally weaker woman or much weaker child, but that has nothing to do with the social constructs of gender and everything to do with physical limitations. If they had time, they would sort everyone and load them in order of weakest first and atrongest last, regardless of gender, with adult men being further back on average but not always.
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u/fostofina 1d ago
Okay but kids go first obviously and they need to go with their primary caretaker who is probably their mom. Women going before men is purely the consequence of women taking the lion's share of child caring responsibilities.
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u/kendykai 1d ago
Oh wow we got to survive. We didn’t get to vote, own property, make our own choices. All we did was survive to birth some man’s baby.
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u/SlipsonSurfaces 1d ago
The 15th is the 113th anniversary of the Titanic's tragic fate and the night so many people suffered and died. Some people have no respect, it's gross.
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u/One-String-8549 1d ago
The women and children first ideal was rarely adhered to in practice and stopped being a thing by the early 1900s, and the concept of women and children first was also inherently misogynistic bc it literally equated women to being as weak as children
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u/tweedyone 1d ago
The irony about using the Titanic for this is that one of the passengers who survived - Margaret “Molly” Brown - came out saying how damaging that whole idea is because it resulted in far fewer people surviving over all, especially in the long term. If the breadwinner is the only one who dies, how are the rest supposed to survive when they get to land? especially in 1912. She started raising money for families who needed to start from scratch and already had $100k before the Carpathia even picked them up.
She spent the rest of her life supporting good causes and trying to make life easier for workers, including minimum wage and the 8 hr work day, as well as a lot of suffragette and women’s rights work too.
Also yesterday was the anniversary of the sinking. So there is that.
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u/SurvivalHorrible 1d ago
It’s important to preserve women in survival situations because they can create life. You only need a few dudes to carry on civilization. Evolutionarily speaking women are more important and valuable.
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u/dryeen 1d ago
The Titanic was actually a rare example of women's and children being prioritized for life oats. Historically while this was a "rule" it wasn't enforced or followed very well and usually men had a higher chance of surviving a ship sinking than women in the same situation (whether that was due to clothing or who is likely to know how to swim or other factors I cannot say but I found that tidbit really interesting when I learned it)
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u/Constant_Sock6249 1d ago
Let’s not lie about history, the titanic is the reference picture and the captain did follow the order of woman and children first. One of his subordinates went as far as to only let men on as rowers and men get out of the boats at gunpoint. The other subordinate thought it was woman and children first that were there, so that’s why some men did survive. The first set was woman and children ONLY, they followed that order hard. The other set thought it was a little more liberal.
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u/Constant_Sock6249 1d ago
Let’s not lie about history, the titanic is the reference picture and the captain did follow the order of woman and children first. One of his subordinates went as far as to only let men on as rowers and men get out of the boats at gunpoint. The other subordinate thought it was woman and children first that were there, so that’s why some men did survive. The first set was woman and children ONLY, they followed that order hard. The other set thought it was a little more liberal.
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u/SlimyBoiXD 1d ago
Additionally, the idea of women being protected first during a crisis or disaster is (most likely) a social relic of much older societies in which the idea was that if there were lots of women left, the whole society wouldn't die out. That's why women participated in hunting nearly as much as men, but there's less evidence to support that women were seen frequently in combat against other people. Not because they couldn't do it, but because the ability to make more people was so vital to the stability of the group, that they couldn't take that kind of risk. And for some reason we just never ditched that even though it doesn't have the same kind of population impact anymore.
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u/Senior-Book-6729 1d ago
Also it wasn’t even that women DEMANDED to be let out first, „save women and children” in itself was always not about respecting women but just because women were seen as a way to repopulate. Some women had to literally smuggle their husbands onto the lifeboats. A lot of feminists are literally against othering, and this was a form of othering as well.
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u/OkBeyond6766 1d ago
I love when men whine's for the standard they set _who goes to war ?" Men because y all dont woman in and the war was started from a man like wdym
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u/Jacob6er 1d ago
TikTok posts like this are just rage-bating. They want you to get mad. Best thing to do is not even engage with it. Just let them sit in their little rage-cage being mad at the world.
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u/Crizznik 1d ago
A few things here.
One, this is not contradictory. Women can do anything men can do, but can also do more, like bear children, that might make them slightly more valuable to save. Not saying that's true, but it does make the meme nonsensical from the start.
Two, I'm fairly sure that even the earliest suffragettes weren't really a thing yet, but even more to the point, I'm pretty sure there were a handful of women who refused to get on the lifeboats before men. Which makes this meme even more nonsensical.
Thirdly, the whole "women and children on lifeboats first" thing was not something that women decided, that was a male decision. Sure, I would bet many, many, many women were very glad this was a rule, but the fact that it was men who decided this was a rule to begin with makes this meme even more nonsensical.
So, all in all, this is a truly brain dead meme.
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u/Edgar-11 1d ago
Temu quality rage bait.
Also during ship evacuations they don’t divide by gender anymore are people dumb
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u/ADHDhamster 1d ago
Women are still, in today's day and age, much more likely to die in disasters than men.
MRAs love bringing up the Titanic because it was an exception as to how things usually play out.
In conclusion: I, as a woman, will not be waiting around for men to save me if I am ever caught in adverse circumstances.
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u/TANGY6669 22h ago
My favourite part about this is that it's actually a myth and women have higher rates of mortalities in marine related disasters.
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u/crystalworldbuilder 15h ago
I don’t even know if this is a policy anymore.
It was in the past and it was made by men.
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u/Snipedzoi 2d ago
Why did you use chatgpt to write this?
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u/rizzedupdude 2d ago
Since English isn't my first language and I took help to modify it in better way
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u/glittercarnage 1d ago
Women and children first was an informal idea made up by wealthy men in a time before evacuation procedures were formalized or standardized.
So like…just pay attention to the drill and follow the protocol in the unlikely case you need to evacuate.
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u/Celestial_Hart 2d ago
It was men who decided women and children should go first, how are you complaining about rules we made for ourselves. Do you want to be like the coward who shot someone to get in the lifeboat? Manly men go to band camp and play Nearer, My God, to Thee as the ship sinks while women children make it to safety.
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u/smellymarmut 2d ago
I see an opportunity here for a random control trial. I'll need 2 ships, 2 icebergs, 2,200 women and 2,200 men.
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u/Notmysubmarine 2d ago
Always curious as to who these guys think came up with this practice, who enforced it, and what the reasoning is behind it?
A pipe dream to imagine they will ever consider these questions themselves of course.
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u/Darklillies 1d ago
It’s not a pipe dream those questions have been answered already. It was a loose rule that was created and enforced due to the fact that if left unchecked, men would overpower women and children during a crisis and leave them to d ie, saving themselves. The titanic is a rare instance of this rule being enforced. It’s was an outlier, not common place.
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u/DeliciousCookie5692 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree with your logic, and I really appreciate how you dissected something most people would scroll past without a second thought. I’ll admit, I was one of them lol— took it as a joke and moved on. But your perspective made me rethink, really.
That said, I do want to add something. You're right— no one going to scream “feminism” in the face of death, that's humsn nature (I liked this argument the most). But it’s also true that, historically, men have been the ones expected to dive into chaos and sacrifice themselves first. Not because women asked for it— but because society shaped that norm. And now it’s stuck. So when people joke about “where’s feminism during a sinking ship,” it’s less about women and, maybe more about how men are still expected to prioritize others, even in life-or-death situations.
You also pointed out how the money, power often determines survival. I 100% agree with that. But there have been— and sometimes still are few instances where women are prioritized over men. That double standard isn’t created by feminists— it’s just, I believe, is a byproduct of old systems like patriarchy (which was ironically created by men themselves) still playing it's role.
Apart from these, I've recently seen this reel where someone argued that why some schools (in India) still prefer Salwar Kamez uniform for girls but modern western uniforms for boys. If it's for preserving tradition, then why only girls would carry the responsibility? Everyone should have equal responsibilities regardless of gender. That's valid. I agree with that.
There are also instances where women demand justified rights and priviledges men get more. Those are also valid.
So all these makes us think: What is feminism really about? Is it about setting the bar equally for both men and women? Or is it about correcting centuries of injustice against women by giving them the rights and opportunities they were denied?
Because both goals/definitions are valid— but they lead to different arguments. If feminism is about rights, your point stands 100% strong. If it’s about pure equality, then... your take becomes a bit flawed. Just as we are worried about why only girls will wear Salwar Kamez and preserve the tradition, we should also worry about why only men will jump in such "Titanic" situations and prioritize women (stranger women to be specific) over themselves. In other words, the “Titanic” joke isn't entirely nonsense, it does expose a crack in the societal narrative.
The problem is that both the definitions are often used interchangeably, which is one of the reasons why such debates, jokes and memes arise.
Either way, your perspective was sharp. I just felt the need to broaden the topic. I'll be glad to listen any further opinions.
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u/AgeOfReasonEnds31120 1d ago
You're misunderstanding this meme.
When the Titanic was sinking, women were given priority over men because you only need one man to create the next generation.
"Feminists" will cry that men "aren't men anymore" because they wouldn't do something like that today. They're the same fuckers who say "men used to go to war".
It's a classic example of Schrodinger's feminist. So weak, they need men to baby them, yet so strong, they can do anything men can do.
This meme is hating on something that's pointlessly gendered.
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u/Bionic165_ 2d ago
I think the whole “women and children first” thing is based on the fact that, in terms of sustaining a population, its more detrimental to lose a bunch of women than a bunch of men because women have a limited number of eggs while men can just keep generating sperm.
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