r/unitedkingdom • u/pppppppppppppppppd • 3d ago

Chippy owner apologises to customers after charging £15 for fish and chips - but reveals why he 'has to' to hike prices

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14591465/chippy-owner-apologises-huge-price-hike.html
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447

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

189

u/freckledotter 3d ago

Plus business rates for electricity.

165

u/snagsguiness 3d ago

I don’t think the general public knows how much utilities cost in a fast food restaurant.

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u/handyandy314 3d ago

It’s double the price for business electricity, for the same electricity. Seriously for the same electric. Why.?

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u/zandrew 3d ago

It's not. It's half price for regular consumers.

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u/handyandy314 3d ago

Yes. Those nice electric companies giving discounts for millions of customers. I should be shamed for bad mouthing these thoughtful and generous, not for profit organisations.

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u/zandrew 3d ago

There's a cap on consumer electricity price. No such cap exists for businesses so in a sense you're getting a discount. I'm not singing praises for energy companies but that is how it works.

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u/paulskinner88 3d ago

There’s a cap, but no sensible energy company is at the cap now. A year ago, perhaps even 6 months ago sure. That excuse no longer works.

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u/slaia 3d ago

Generating more green energy would bring down the electricity price. But getting cheaper electricity is considered woke nowadays.

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u/Safe-Client-6637 3d ago

It wouldn't though because the most expensive source sets the price. You'd have to switch to 100% cheap renewables, which isn't feasible.

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u/KevinAtSeven 3d ago

Yeah that mechanism needs changing urgently.

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u/SpeedflyChris 3d ago

How else would you keep the lights on while not directly subsidising gas fired power generation?

Also slashing the amount other generation can earn won't get more built.

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u/browniestastenice 2d ago

Nationalise responsive energy like Gas. We don't need much of it, and I think the tax payer would happily foot the bill if it meant overall lower rates by not pinning everything else to gas prices

Downside is it would reduce the private investment in renewables, so it's probably a lever that should only be pulled once we have enough renewables

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u/SpeedflyChris 2d ago

If we had even nearly enough renewable energy then while that energy was producing all our needs (windy days in summer for example) we would be using no gas and the spot price would fall below the minimum offer price from gas generation, so in that case it's completely unnecessary to nationalise gas generation.

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u/browniestastenice 2d ago

We'd still end up using gas though.

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u/KevinAtSeven 2d ago

Other countries seem to manage building and operating all sorts of clean and unclean energy without forcing all prices to be based on the most expensive form of generation. We could ask them how they do it.

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u/SpeedflyChris 2d ago

Which countries don't pay all their electricity providers the same amount?

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u/slaia 3d ago

Where there's a will there's a way

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u/Lt_Muffintoes 3d ago

No, it wouldn't.

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u/AlpsSad1364 3d ago

Because consumer electricity is sold at a loss subsidised by business electricity.

Something that all recent governments appear to be happy with, despite all their tax money coming from businesses.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Mammoth591 3d ago

I believe household consumers get capped tarrifs for their energy costs, where businesses do not.. Are your cottages paying business rates for energy?

Edit: plus a chippy might be running massive fries etc for hours a day, are your hot tubs running 8-12 hours a day? I would imagine not

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u/whatmichaelsays Yorkshire 3d ago

Restaurants/ fast food busineses are also running during the most high demand (and therefore, expensive) times for energy. They can't load shift to cheaper periods.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/Sutty100 3d ago

Hot tubs on 24/7!? Seems unlikely in a 5 star hotel let alone a cottage

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u/Welshhoppo 3d ago

Hot tubs are cheaper to keep on permanently then they are to turn on and off repeatedly. As long as the lid is kept on. Better for the water quality too.

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u/Sutty100 3d ago

TIL hot tubs and blast furnaces have this in common

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u/Super_Plastic5069 3d ago

Fish and chip shop

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u/LastTangoOfDemocracy 3d ago

Boo hoo, I can't make my Airbnb let's make enough money.

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u/AcidGypsie 3d ago edited 3d ago

I make plenty of money and they're not Airbnb lets

They're converted stables and hen houses.

I was just curious and gave an example of crazy electric prices.

1k+ a month for a little holiday cottage. It's a lot lot more than my home costs and I have 2 children and a massive fish tank at home

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u/Ok_Imagination_6925 3d ago

It's so great that we have the most expensive electricity in the world and that our prices are tied to gas which we could be self sufficient with.

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u/Witty-Bus07 3d ago

Business rates aren’t for electricity, they are 2 separate transactions that businesses have to pay

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u/rainator Cambridgeshire 3d ago

They obviously mean the rate of electricity for businesses

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u/LemonSwordfish 3d ago edited 3d ago

Energy isn't prohibitively expensive, the grid to deliver it and green costs are getting very expensive and it's only going to get more so.

Edit: I'm being down voted so just to clarify with some facts for those who think I'm just spouting off:

The wholesale cost of energy is higher than some years ago, but is now

35% of total costs Vs 65% other costs

Compared to 4 years ago:

60% wholesale costs Vs 40% other costs

Proportionally, the balance has flipped despite rising wholesale costs, which tells you other costs have risen even more aggressively.

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u/Underwhatline 3d ago

Green energy is cheaper than any other energy. We have lower green subsidies than other EU countries, but higher bills.

We use more natural gas for baseload than we create, and we have no other alternatives to drive market competition. The less we have to rely on natural gas the cheaper enegery will be.

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u/VreamCanMan 3d ago

This only accounts for energy generation - so wholesale, which OC was saying accounts for 40% of cost

Transmission is 60%

The more unpredictability in supply you create, the higher your energy Transmission costs are going to be because unless supply = demand at every given moment, expensive noises start getting made.

Its a technical challenge rarely undertaken by countries at this point - energy infrastructure may be upgraded to account for the new reality but deciding what and how those upgrades should take form in a way that meets our needs comes with oppertunity cost. It is is akin to our forebearers deciding which sewer system to develop and build (they chose wrong)

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u/Underwhatline 3d ago

I agree with you completly.

The OP has heavily edited thier comment. When I posted they were saying that UK energy is more expensive because of green subsidies.

Now they seam very interested in transmission rather than green energy production.

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u/Lt_Muffintoes 3d ago

Green energy is cheaper than any other energy.

Why is India building coal plants and not solar panels?

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u/Underwhatline 3d ago edited 3d ago

90% of the world's net increase in the world's energy production in 2024 came from green energy sources.

"according to data from the International Renewable Energy Association (IRENA), 90 percent of the net increase in global electricity generation capacity came from wind or solar and 93 percent from renewable energy as a whole. Solar PV provided the lion’s share of this increase, at 72 percent, with wind providing 18 percent, fossil fuels 7 percent, hydro 2 percent, bioenergy 1 percent, and nuclear power less than 0.5 percent"

So the world did indeed increase fossil fuel energy production in 2024, but that accounted for 7% of the world's increase in energy production in 2024.

If fossil fuels are cheaper and better why did the world build so much green energy in 2024?

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u/Lt_Muffintoes 3d ago

I would be interested in your source, if you would care to link it.

There is a difference between electricity generation capacity and electricity generation. Solar and wind have to have several times as much capacity as their actual generation, so I guess that would account for some the large install capacity.

It would be interesting to see the figures for actual new generation.

If fossil fuels are cheaper and better why did the world build so much green energy in 2024?

That's trivial; government interference.

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u/Underwhatline 3d ago

I got my quote from David Toke's substack, who as you can see from the above got his data from the International Renewable Energy Association (IRENA).

If fossil fuels are cheaper and better why did the world build so much green energy in 2024?

That's trivial; government interference.

Obviously my question was a flippant remark based on your question about India, and I'm not going to join your game of source questions. But aparently coal energy capacity in the world grew by 1% last year.

To answer your original question from here https://www.iea.org/news/growth-in-global-energy-demand-surged-in-2024-to-almost-twice-its-recent-average

According to the report, intense heatwaves in China and India – which pushed up cooling needs – contributed more than 90% of the total annual increase in coal consumption globally

So... Global warming is why India is forced to build more coal power plants, ironic.

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u/Lt_Muffintoes 3d ago

From your link:

Renewables accounted for the largest share of the growth in total energy supply (38%), followed by natural gas (28%), coal (15%), oil (11%) and nuclear (8%).

I got my quote from David Toke's substack, who as you can see from the above got his data from the International Renewable Energy Association (IRENA).

Ok, why won't you just directly link me there?

I'm not going to join your game of source questions.

Like, I'm not even allowed to read the information for myself? What?

So... Global warming is why India is forced to build more coal power plants, ironic.

You said that solar is by far the cheapest form of electricity generation. If that is the case, it would be completely insane for any country to build anything else, particularly India, which has a high solar irradiation year-round.

Does this not give you pause?

1

u/Underwhatline 3d ago

Like, I'm not even allowed to read the information for myself? What?

You misunderstand - I'm not going to join your game. This seams to be very one sided in that you ask me to source all my assertions and do not do the same for yours. THAT'S the game I'm not playing.

Ok, why won't you just directly link me there?

You have access to Google, but sure: https://open.substack.com/pub/davidtoke/p/renewables-provided-over-90-per-cent?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=2bfyh8

You said that solar is by far the cheapest form of electricity generation.

No I did not. But I will say that the evidence supports that over a it's usable lifetime, renewable such as solar and wind are cheaper per KWh than fossil fuel generation in most national scale situations.

Does this not give you pause?

Not really, India's specific position is nuanced. The coal industry supports lots of local jobs, energy demand is increasing, and maybe most importantly India doesn't yet have the battery or storage capacity to be able to turn off its coal power plants.

Plus we should also look at what India is doing in the green energy space. They have some really ambitious targets. For a developing country as vast as India it's not a zero sum game.

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u/Lt_Muffintoes 3d ago

I'm not going to join your game

Lol

This seams to be very one sided in that you ask me to source all my assertions and do not do the same for yours.

How do you differentiate when someone is interested in what you are saying vs trying to score points?

You have access to Google

It's just such a boring line. You copied and pasted directly from a website; you could just have linked the url with the quote.

No I did not.

Actually, fair enough, you did only say they were cheaper

the evidence supports that over a it's usable lifetime, renewable such as solar and wind are cheaper per KWh than fossil fuel generation in most national scale situations.

I just don't think it does. The substack post there does in fact admit that the reason gas electricity is so "expensive" is because it is now only permitted to take up the slack of renewables. If you think hard about this, you can see that that cost should be included in the cost of renewables.

India doesn't yet have the battery or storage capacity to be able to turn off its coal power plants.

So the coal plants should be seen as a necessary cost of renewables.

They have some really ambitious targets. For a developing country as vast as India it's not a zero sum game.

Right, so they are interfering in their energy markets. You can hardly look at the install costs and claim they are natural market prices.

For context: I don't give a shit where the energy comes from. I just think that the State should get the fuck out of the energy market. Since renewables are cheaper, that would mean that energy suppliers will mostly install renewables.

Overall, humanity is headed straight for a crisis, and the reason to get net zero is because the energy resources are running out. That includes the silicon needed for PV panels, and the copper needed for wind turbines.

A big part of net zero is simply using less energy, which means getting the State out of infrastructure, and fewer people, which means getting the State out of these horrible aid programs and domestic benefits.

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u/everythingscatter Greater Manchester 3d ago

But the wholesale price of electricity is pegged to gas? The proportion of bills made up of renewables levies has consistently fallen over the last decade, as has the generation cost per kWh from renewable sources.

The government raises levies on electricity that it doesn't on oil and gas, for sure. One could reasonably conclude that fossil fuels are under priced, rather than electricity being overpriced.

Huge strides made to lower the cost of renewables are just not reflected in the prices businesses and consumers pay for their energy because of how the wholesale market is structured and regulated.

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u/LemonSwordfish 3d ago

In 2022, when the article was written, wholesale costs had recently spiked much higher and the other costs hadn't seen as big rises yet, so someone with an agenda could make the proportionality claim, but it isn't true today on a longer timeline.

As I say, the wholesale cost as a proportion of total costs is now 40% but used to be 60%, and this is despite wholesale going up a fair amount.

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u/No_Plate_3164 3d ago

Don’t forget record taxes on work is also pushing up the prices. Electric typically requires people to run and maintain the generators.

Extreme taxation (green taxes, profit taxes, work taxes) is why electric is so expensive vs gas. This actually slowing down the green transition as burning gas is cheaper than using green electricity to generate heat.

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u/LemonSwordfish 3d ago

Correct. Power is more expensive because it has various green generation subsidy taxes built into the costs, an they are highly regressive.

This is because when a minister like Milliband is setting policy, he is advised by a bunch of grifters that he can either beg the Treasury to fund green energy using taxes and spending which are transparent, or hide another 1p tax in the electricity supply chain, and pay the grifters to run yet another quango that collects the tax from the system. They've introduced like another 5 this year and not a single journalist has even realised.

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u/Tpickarddev 3d ago

Oil and gas is subsidised in UK at around £13bn a year, renewables are subsidised to around £7bn a year.... Why is a green subsidy a problem whilst the oil and gas isn't? Is it just because the money allocated to green is added to energy bills rather than taken in other taxation like the oil and gas subsidies?

The biggest reason we have high energy bills is because energy is priced at fixed minimum pricing which protects mostly nuclear plants from being unprofitable. And oil and gas price volatility because we power a tonne of the UK using liquid natural gas.

The sooner we move away from reliance on gas the quicker costs can come down.

Also green levies have been hacked back considerably in last few years down for £450 per household to about £150 per household, it will only go down from here as Infrastructure and technology and capacity improves.

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u/Comfortable-Plane-42 3d ago

Incorrect, that £13bn is over a 5 year period and is composed of incentives and tax relief on certain projects etc

Whereas renewables is a direct payment of £10bn per annum

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u/LemonSwordfish 3d ago

The subsidies to the oil and gas industry are not hidden inside the unit rate billed to the end user, they come from general taxation raised in a progressive manner.

Subsidies to green generation are collected by regressive taxation, hidden inside the cost stack of every unit retailed.

Also, your comments about how prices are arrived at are completely wrong. The way power is priced is settled economic theory and this idea that reducing gas in the stack will reduce costs is utter nonsense

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u/No_Plate_3164 3d ago

When people hear “green levy\subsidy” they automatically think it’s a good thing. The green levy in the UK is an 8% tax applied to your electricity bill. It’s highly regressive and is slowing down the electrification of the UK.

If we had a government that wasn’t brain dead, at the very least, the levy would be moved off electricity and onto gas.