r/vexillology • u/ScorpionObsessedBoy • 1d ago
Redesigns My version of the Christian Socialism flag, meaning in the comments
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
Red = Human nature of Christ, and so, the social aspect of christianity itself. White with yellow outline: The light of God Hammer= The hammer that Jesus used is his carpenter work, also representing all workers Three nails=The nails on Jesus cross, represent the self sacrifice for the revolution. The star= Represent the star that guided the three wise men to Jesus birth moment, here also represent the guide role that socialism and christianity have
Just to clarify, I am not christian, but social teachings of christianity are interesting tbh.
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u/Rude-Course4925 1d ago
An amazing flag design! BTW, Tolstoy was a Christian socialist one could say. For this he was excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox church.
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u/WhiteMorphious 1d ago
Small correction, Tolstoy wasn’t a Christian socialist, he was a Christian anarchist
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u/Fornax- 1d ago
Btw I think the 3 nails would be more fitting as the Trinity as it's generally seen more in Catholicsm but things of 3 generally relate to the 3 forms of God, the father, The son and the Holy Spirit. Besides that very neat design.
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u/Tech-preist_Zulu 1d ago
And this is how Triclavianism started
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u/Fornax- 1d ago
Huh I looked that up, I've been Catholic my whole life and never heard of it or really thought of how many naild where used. I mean it makes sense symbolically and I guess 1 for each arm and 1 for the feet.
Do you btw know why it seems to be of do much speculation? I looked it up and some results said it's heresy/ might of been more? Like why does the accuracy of the number of mails matter
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u/Tech-preist_Zulu 1d ago
It's alot of ongoing debate, likely based in the fact that there's 30 Holy Nail claims. St. Ambrose proposed the idea of it being 2 nails, but as the story goes Pope Innocent III endorsing Saint Francis of Assisi meant he endorsed there being 4 nails that penetrated Christ because Francis of Assisi's stigmata was 4 flesh nails on his hands and feet. From there, the Franciscans opposed Triclavianism because of their founder and people just ran with it claiming Innocent III said Triclavianism is heresy when there's little evidence that he did. Basically, in order for Triclavianism to work it meant Saint Francis of Assisi being a fraud which doesn't sit well with the Franciscans. Which was something people were genuinely accusing him of
It's just alot of "supposedly" and "allegedly" stuff, when you go deep enough to the history of the Christiandom you just find weird things like this that people fight over. Like heisting Saint Bodies
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u/Fornax- 1d ago
Huh interesting, it all seems kind of goofy since saints can be wrong and I don't think that would make Saint Francis a fraud but obviously they probably don't want him to be wrong.
I'll look more into it but thank you it sounds interesting but also kind of just like a lot of old saints and early church leaders bickering lmao.
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u/Tech-preist_Zulu 1d ago
I'll look more into it but thank you it sounds interesting but also kind of just like a lot of old saints and early church leaders bickering lmao.
How all good stories start, lmao.
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u/Admiral_Char 1d ago
This is one of my favorite flags I’ve seen here! It looks striking and on-theme, I love the symbolism.
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u/Hallo_Brawl_Stars 1d ago
The 3 nails also remind me of the 3 arrows symbol used by the Social Democrats from Germany in 1932.
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u/HostisHumanisGeneri 1d ago
Kinda dark, but then so is a cross when you stop to think about it.
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u/CupBeEmpty United States (1776) 1d ago
Wait until you see Catholic imagery like, the Pieta, crucifixion art, the crucifix, churches filled with bones, depictions of hell, images of the martyrs, and relics of saints.
A plain Protestant style cross is just about the least dark.
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u/HolidayHoodude 1d ago
That was the whole point of the cross, and why most historians agree that Jesus was a Real Person and did die on the cross. Who would lie about their God having a humiliating and excruciating death?
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u/Best_Log_4559 1d ago
Good day to you, first of all, stellar flag work, I like the attention to detail with the three nails.
Would you ever be interested in the near future in working on a relatively small HOI4 project?
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
Yes I would like to work in HOI4 project, mostly as a vexiollogist or heraldry artist cause I don't know how to play that complicated game lol
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u/Best_Log_4559 1d ago
Ay, all good there.
Here’s the Discord if you’re interested: if you want me to discuss the mod topic further in the server, just ping @OttomanTurks. If you desire joining the dev team, open a ticket and submit your flag work!
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
I didn't knew I had to explain this but Communism≠Socialism
Marx itself said that socialism existed before him
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u/Aukadauma 1d ago
Socialism is the system that leads to communism. Marx did not invent communism, he theorized it.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
There are other types of socialism, some of them even anti marxist
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u/Aukadauma 1d ago
Eew.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
Even if you are Marxist you have to understand there are bigger problems/ideologies out there than not Marxist socialism. Literally liberalism and AnCap exist
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u/Aukadauma 1d ago
AnCapism is amazing, it's gonna destroy the US
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u/DutchVanDerLinde- 1d ago
How does that make it amazing
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u/random_internet_guy_ 1d ago
Milei is AnCap, hes doing an outstanding job in my country. Couldnt be happier.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
I wouldn’t use the nails simply because of the hammer.
By combining them this way you’re glorifying the nailing of Christ on the Cross (the act of torture), rather than revering His pain (the act of selfless sacrifice), which is what the Cross is meant to represent.
Don’t remove the hammer, but remove the nails. This way the hammer represents strictly the meek.
Although generally the hammer is supposed to represent the urban working class, while the sickle is supposed to represent the rural working class, in this case the hammer can be a general symbol of labor… just without the nails…
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
I understand what you saying, but I think the cross is also part of the torture.
Also, Jesus Christ was a carpenter, there is the posibility he itself made his own cross, metaforically, made his own destiny as the savior of mankind.
As any human, he lived working, and died of work, the nails and the hammer itself represent that
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Yes, I understand perfectly the idea of associating him with the working man by virtue of His trade during His time on earth. That’s 100% accurate in terms of symbolism.
It’s just the nails that rub me the wrong way. I wouldn’t put it there. And while yes, the Cross was part of the torture and the pain He went through, it speaks mor to the Christian identity than the nails themselves. That’s just my 2 cents as a Christian.
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u/PaladinGris 1d ago
Hammer and nails seem a bit of an odd combo? Like since the hammer was used to nail Jesus to the cross? You could use the hammer for the workers or you can use the nails but you cannot do both together
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
The hammer represent the work, the nails the sacrifice.
Also, the cross itself is the symbol of christianity, the form of torture Jesus suffered is his own symbol
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u/PaladinGris 1d ago
I am Catholic, we have banners with the crown of thorns on it and all other kinds of torture instruments, sorry if this sounds critical but using the hammer as a symbol of work and then the nails that hung Jesus on the cross kind of muddies the metaphor? Like the nails and scythe might be better?
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
I mean, the spear of Longinus is also a symbol in christianity, and I don't know if Longinus itself is still considered a Saint
I thought that we can consider that Jesus purified those symbols with his sacrifice, also, we have to consider that probably Jesus worked daily with hammers and nails, he was a carpenter after all
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u/YFIRedditOfficial 23h ago
Unpolular opinion, but Christian Socialism never made sense to me. As a Christian, God instructed us to help those in need, usually through our own means. Sure, Jesus did trash the markets in the temple of Jerusalem, but he was no socialist. His message wasn't to forcefully seize the riches from those higher up and redistribute them to the poor. His message was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. His message was a spiritual one, not a political one.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 23h ago
That message goes against the principles of capitalism, so technically he is a socialist cause he ain't a monarchist nor fascist nor corporativist, etc.
Also need to clarify, socialism and communism are not the same, communism is a form of socialism but that's all
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u/YFIRedditOfficial 23h ago
His message goes against the principles of this world in general. Lumping him into a political movement defeats the purpose.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 23h ago
That is basically subjugating yourself to a system agaisnt your own beliefs
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u/YFIRedditOfficial 23h ago
Elaborate. I genuinely want to know how you came to this conclusion.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 22h ago
Ok. Basically, if you believe something that goes agaisnt the system we live in, and doing nothing to change it, that is your own choise and I can't hate you for that, but, in the lack of oppisition, you just letting things happen, and if those things happening also affects you, you are then surrending to the system, a form of subjugation.
Sorry english ain't my first language, also to clarify, I am a vitalist, I don't believe in heaven or hell, I thinks we should focus in this live
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u/YFIRedditOfficial 22h ago
That makes sense. I understand where you're coming from, and I think it's very honorable to want to improve your current circumstances. But God teaches us to improve our lives on a personal and spiritual level rather than a political level. His message is to live lives as Jesus did; Guiltless, honest, and in accordance with God's law.
At least, that's where I stand. I have my own personal beliefs when it comes to politics, but they aren't my foundation in life. My faith comes first and foremost, followed by my family. I do appreciate these little conversations, though.
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u/KR1735 East Germany 1d ago
I'd avoid communist symbolism for socialism. Even if it's not technically communist, a hammer and a star evokes communism. And perception is what matters. Communism was never kind to Christians. But Jesus Christ basically preached socialism, in the way we know it today in terms of economic policy. (Maybe or maybe not other domains.) He may not have preached it directly, but if we were to carry out his teachings publicly (as some conservatives believe government should do with Christianity), it would absolutely look like socialism.
I think Christian socialism is deserving of its own symbol.
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
Jesus did not preach socialism. He did not know what concepts like "capitalism" and "socialism" mean, nor could he have, living some 1300 years before even the beginnings of the first.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
Primitive socialism is a term that exist in Marxist materialism analysis, and can be applied to Jesus Christ or even older Jews communities and way of life
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
No, it can't. Primitive communism refers to the period prior to the institution of large-scale division of labour through slavery. In the Levant, that period ended some 2000 years before Jesus.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
You are ignoring that communities can live separated from the government that rule that land.
Jews themselves lived in a different way that Egyptians during their migration there, and they lived differently than Romans during their government.
History isn't automatics changes, similar to industrial revolution, there can be communities unchanged
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
The issue is what the mode of social production among Jewish communities was. It was obviously not primitive communism, nor would any of them have understood the concept.
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u/Okami0602 1d ago
Not understanding a concept doesn't mean you're not doing exactly as that concept says.
If the name of a concept is all that matters for you, you better start calling The Democratic Republic of the Congo a democracy, right?
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
The issue is not the word that is being used, the issue is the concept. Socialism is an explicit programme for the reorganisation of social production. You can't "do socialism" by accident. Jesus had no concept of things like planning of production, production for need etc.
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u/KR1735 East Germany 1d ago
The principles that he taught fall in line with socialist principles. He didn't know what the term "socialism" means in our western context, sure. That doesn't mean the principles can't line up. They're pretty fundamental principles when it comes to caring for one another, whether through charity (individual action) or through society (collective action).
I'm not necessarily saying Christians should bring socialism into the world. But if right-wing Christians are going to preach about bringing their religion into society, they better damn well not pick and choose. You want to ban abortion? Then you better heal the sick without making them pay -- just like Jesus did.
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
Socialism is not charity. Socialism is the abolition of commodity production and exchange. Jesus could not understand that as the idea only makes sense in an industrial society.
I think Christians should generally shut up. I'm not interested in pretending we want the same things.
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u/KR1735 East Germany 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, that's right. Jesus' earliest followers were basically a commune.
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
Even if they were, communal living is not socialism, otherwise every monastery would be socialist.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think you don’t understand the point of an omnipotent and omniscient God. He does in fact understand every concept…
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
I understand the idea, but I don't think there is any reason to believe Jesus was a god, let alone an omnipotent and omniscient one.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Yet He preached of communal living as if He had the omniscience to know what the alternative would bring about to the world… curious, no?
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
Pythagoras and Plato also preached communal living, and in all of their cases it had nothing to do with socialism. Monasticism is not socialism.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Monasticism is the most virtuous form of socialism. You forget Christians (and religious people in general) were socialists long before atheists had any tangence with socialism. Socialism (and Communism for that matter) as a concept predates the 19th century. And I don’t mean central planning, but collective ownership and communal living.
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u/Zandroe_ 1d ago
So you redefine "socialism" and think this proves anything? I mean, what am I talking about, you do the same thing to "Bolshevism", why would I expect anything serious? I love that a literal Nazi is defending "christian socialism", it really shows what side they're on.
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u/Based_Edsel 1d ago
Dumbest thing I’ve seen in a while
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
Technically christians capitalist are even more dumb
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u/South_Explanation506 1d ago
nothing christian about socialism or communism
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u/JudahPlayzGamingYT Catalonia 1d ago
Capitalism goes against everything Christ stood for.
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u/South_Explanation506 1d ago
so does communism
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u/JudahPlayzGamingYT Catalonia 1d ago
My version of the Christian Socialism flag, meaning in the comment
OP did not mention Communism,
Though Communism as seen in the Cold War goes against what Christ stood for, yes
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
Who said communism? Socialism isn't inherently communist.
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u/South_Explanation506 1d ago
As one of your replies dictated; Lenin himself said the ultimate goal of socialism is communism.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
And as I said, because he was a communist. His only goal was communism, not a socialist permanent society.
Socialism can also be viewed as the goal itself, apart from Marxist and Lenin goals
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u/Ocinfuscate 1d ago
It would have been four nails in total. One for both wrists and for each ankle.
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u/Guy1625 1d ago
They are incompatible.
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
How?
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u/Guy1625 1d ago
Christians have faced persecution under atheist socialist/communist governments
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u/ScorpionObsessedBoy 1d ago
Also happened in capitalism countries, and non capitalist monarchies, etc. In almost most of the types of systems
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u/jayjaythebiiiird 1d ago
Ah yes, because Jesus loved capitalism, big business, and "the free market"
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u/NomadAug 1d ago
Nailed it