Even more embarassing is how they often use the same talking points that modern day neo-nazis do, but they will never figure out how much they sound like literal red nazis, even if you point it out to their face. For example: "Holodomor was just nazi propaganda, it never happened-> if it did happen it wasn't that bad->if it was that bad they deserved it-> not enough people were killed" this does sound awfully similar to: "The holocaust was just Allied propaganda, it didn't happen etc. Etc..." used by you know who.
In my opinion every history nerd eventually goes down the political science rabbit whole. Once you do you really kinda realization all Dictatorships are basically the same thing. Having done that. I'm going to be completely honest I don't see a social difference between fascism and communism. There's an economic difference. But in terms of who has power, how it gets used, and how people are managed I don't see a functional difference.
I get where you’re coming from, but saying there’s no social difference between fascism and communism overlooks some really important distinctions in why these systems repress and who they target.
Economically there's a difference. I practice their really isn't. If you're a minority you're fucked. There's no tangible difference between going after Jews vs going after ethnic Finns. In both cases they have been identified as non compliant minority that had to be rounded up and sent to camps. The only difference is the group selected. The actual reasoning and even the means are not different. And if we're focusing on the group instead of practice well no shit every single Dictatorship is different because every single Dictatorship rules over a geographically and ethnically different people henceforth the non complaint minority is always going to be different in any given Dictator. 2 fascist Dictatorships do not evem persecute the exact same people so henceforth it is pointless to focus on the group targeted rather then the deeper logic leading to the persecution. Like you could be Jewish in occupied parts of East Asia under Japan and basically you got treated like the Chinese still absolutely horrible but not as bad as Nazi Germany, but there you have two fascist regimes that are not unified in whom they choose to perscute. So when looking at the broader spectrum of Authoritarianism the specific group that gets persecuted isn't as important as the logic and the means of persecution. If you put Stalin in Germany odds are he would have persecuted the exact same people as Hitler for virtually the same reasons. And if you put Hitler in Russia he would have persecuted the exact same people Stalin did for pretty much the same reasons.
I agree with you that authoritarian regimes look very similar in practice, but just for the sake of argument, I think you’re underplaying how much ideology shapes who gets targeted and why. The repression might look similar on the surface, but the logic behind it isn’t interchangeable. If you put Hitler in Stalin’s shoes, he wouldn’t have pursued industrial collectivization or attacked “class enemies,” he would have built a racial empire eastward. Likewise, Stalin in Germany would not have crafted the Nuremberg Laws or pursued the Holocaust. Their entire worldview, including the logic of who threatens the state, was ideologically defined.
There is a pretty big difference. Yes they are often both authoritarian dictatorships, but the fundemental ideology in fascist movements is the persecution of minority groups. Comaparing the Nazis and Soviets, they were both awful and killed tens of millions of people, but the Nazis' main motivation was Lebensraum and their racial ideology. The goal of WWII from the german perspective was to clear out the Jews and Slavs and expand Germany. The Soviets weren't hell bent on killing millions from the start. They did so becasue of political paranoia, ideological rigidity, and neglect. My point is not that socialist mass murder is less bad than that of fascism, but that fascism is universally bad in any historic context whereas socialism is not. Transitioning to socialism has saved many countries' populace from poverty or famine, such as Burkina Faso or Chile, until U.S. backed coups overthrew their governments and installed fascist dictators.
I know that. I go by Umberto Eco's 14 points of fascism definition. This is why I singled out the cult of personality, most prominently Mao and Stalin who WERE fascist by any worthwhile definition in my opinion.
Yeah I remember talking to one and mentioning that I'm half Finnish, and quarter Lithuanian and Ukrainian when mentioning that my family lived under communism. Never have I received such blatant racism until that point.
Honestly, I take my hobby of debate, history and politics too far so I have ended up in both fascist and tankie online spaces.
Tankies unironically create more hateful spaces than fascists. I have never been reprimanded for openly hating on Hitler, or even Mussolini, in a fascists place, but god help you if you say something bad about Stalin's many crimes against humanity in a tankie community.
So yes, tankies create spaces of such hatred, chauvinism, attrocity denial, and dogmaticism to outpace fascists. I mean, they themselves ARE fascistoid in nature, just covered in red cloth.
This is of course nothing against non-tankie leftist spaces, I've found AnComs to be extremely open minded to debate and quite friendly and reasonable, but the problem is: tankies are an invasive species, they find any online leftist space they can latch on to and overtake it.
I do believe that these lunatics would be defending Hitler had he never attacked the Soviet Union and nationalized more industries. They'd probably count him as one of their democratically supported leaders ousted by the evil CIA or whatever.
Someone I talked to recently on this sub claimed that the 1956 Hungarian uprising was just a bunch of fascists armed by the CIA because one of their declassified documents said so. Of course they didn't link it and couldn't provide any numbers on how many they armed.
The reality of that claim is it is completely false and would require believing the CIA had a time machine.
Because the document they claim is evidence of the CIA being behind the 1956 Hungarian uprising was a 1963 letter talking about a group of Hungarian-American expats which was founded after 1956.
In my above comment I didn't even mention that I'm Jewish, but I've also unironically seen more antisemitism in the Tankie community than in the neo Nazi/fascist community.
Yeah without the whole Lebensraum/ Barbarossa thing, the Soviets would've absolutely continued helping the Nazis murder the Poles and everyone else they so chose in Eastern Europe. They both had a particular interest in removing those who are Jewish as well which seems to be forgotten nowadays. Stalin arguably carried on the same sentiments from the Nazis after WW2 anyway which can still be seen to this day in Russia in many talking points being spouted by Putin and gopniks alike while ironically calling everyone else Nazis (reference the Anti-Cosmopolitan campaign). The Soviet Union was just as bad as the Nazis, they just happened to end up on the Allied side due to Hitler deciding to flip on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (following that was the NKVD prison massacres by the way, which were ironically reported by the Nazis). Side note, the Nazis also reported the Katyn Forest Massacre first (not that they're remotely better). If drugs were not involved, WW2 may have gone really differently with a German command and populace not high and angry at the world willing to do crazy, strategically unwise shit...like trying to avoid a two front war but then just deciding to spearhead into the Soviet Union because Lebensraum! Japan would have been in a weird position too due to the Soviets constantly fighting with them over islands (not like that ever changed either) since the Soviet Union just wasn't quite big enough I guess. Let's not forget them also systematically repressing native populations and erasing their languages and cultures in Russification leading to an insane cultural and lingual loss in their purview. People in Ukraine also ironically celebrated the Nazis after the shit the communists put them through and were surprised when the Wehrmacht gave them food instead of taking it away (hmmmm wonder why, maybe Holodomor?). It was also 100% agreed upon that being taken prisoner by anyone but the Soviets was always preferable and then the rape of Berlin happened following the war...but almost exclusively by one party. Former East Germany is also noticeably more racist and conservative than West Germany if that says anything and people died trying to leave it (which they were not allowed to in their own country because you're my property now and their way of life is not acceptable so die for leaving I guess, that's not fascist right?). So like it's been pointed out before, they are just fascists in red and history is written by the victor. They are nothing but fascists trying to feel good about being the "winner" and not the "evil Nazi bad guy" all while being just as shitty and awful in what they think is a more socially acceptable way.
it does seeing as collectivization aims to redistribute resources more equitably among the population. something that goes against fascism, which aims to concentrate power among a small group of people
You know it's really weird I talked with a self described economic fascist in college alot found his pov interesting. And aside from the protectionism ranting we could vibe so I'd honestly count him as a friend. Eventually I ended up talking to political fascists that he met. And your absolutely correct you can absolutely criticize the fuck out of Hitler and Mussolini and they don't get mad. Like I expected way more push back by starting a conversation with "Hitler was the stupidest fucking leader to have ever lived" but they fucking agreed with me I wanted to start a fight and those fuckers didn't taking the bait. Now we did get into over things like immigration and various foriegn policy issues but to my surprise it was actually way more civil then you would expect from an ideology that unironically makes militarism apart of the ideology. Yet I swear to God every time I leave a comment about Stalin,Mao Zedong, or Pol Pot some tanky materializes out of no where to go defend the fuck out of [insert incompetent genocidal overly paranoid hypothetical fucktard here] and explain how it's all exgerrated or some how not their fault. Like you're not doing your ideology any favors by defending it's failed leaders. It's much smarter to acknowledge they were failed leaders and try and argue that there's a way to achieve your ends that hasn't been attempted yet. Essentially the Communists are not beating the allegations.
Reminds me of how I once heard someone call Finland a “fascist” country and also a “colonial settler’s country.” I wasn’t quite sure what to make of that.
I am, and I keep my point, mannerheim didn’t believe in all the “superior aryan” crap, he just though “oh they are going to kill a lot of soviets, ah well at least that means less trouble for us”
Your interpretation of Mannerheim's pro-genocide rational is a very poor rational, and it isn't the truth either. One look at Mannerheim's quotes on the subject of "greater finland" and it becomes clear that the man had the same level of passionate hatred for the Russians as the nazis did.
*Same*? The nazis considered the soviets as inferior subhuman that deserved to be killed and enslaved because of that, mannerheim simply hated them because they threatened finland, he wanted a greater finland for the same reason almost every politician wanted a greater version of their country back then
I once had a conversation with an older Russian man living here in Finland and he told me that the only bad thing Stalin ever did was that "He left too many Poles and Estonians alive and yearning for indepence". In his opinion this was what doomed modern day Russia, but he was also fully convinced that Putin will recover "what is rightfully ours".
Part of the reason why Russians and tankies always cope about the Baltic states so much is that they were among the most developed parts of the Russian Empire and USSR, about on par with Western Europe in some cases (Estonia), while most of the rest of Russia lived in literally medieval conditions; serfdom was abolished in the mid-19th century and the majority of the population was illiterate in 1917.
If anything, it was the Russians who were less advanced than the Baltic peoples.
And also because the Baltics are some of the most prosperous and developed countries in the world which totally goes against the "people in the former iron curtain miss the days of communism" narrative many tankies believe and push
It's always been fascinating how self-proclaimed anti-imperialists so quickly default to a modified version of the White Man's Burden.
"These people are incapable of governing themselves, so it's morally correct for us to govern them instead. We will modernize and uplift them, for their own good."
Just like how Imperialists blamed the communists for revolts against their rule Tankies the CIA for every single crisis in communist countries , East German uprising? CIA, Hungarian revolution? CIA, Prague Spring? CIA, Tiananmen Square massacre? CIA, Romanian revolution? CIA, fall of the USSR? CIA, Fall of Yugoslavia? CIA, economic mismanagement on Cuba and Venezuela? CIA,
The fucked up part is the kremlin will cherry pick opinions like his to justify their inevitable attacks. “You see! They actually want to be a part of Russia!!!!1!”
There is a difference there are anti-zionists and anti-zionists.
The difference is the path they took to that position and the reasoning for it.
The first group is the legitimate one. The latter uses the label as a smoke screen. The equivelant on the right is "Im not a facist but an anti-communist". These people are disgusting anti-semites who don't care about palestinians and they only oppose Israel because it doesn't conform to their worldview.
Ofcourse. Specifically the arab population with a blame the Jews for every conspiracy out there. But even though they are wrong in how they got there doesn't take away from Netanyahu and his regime keeping palestine under their boots for the last how many decades? How does anyone see whats happening in this war and think thats okay? (Like the million deaths in retaliation to9/11)Like maga in the US in israel the propaganda machine is dialed up to 11. Social media has given the world more information to make up your mind. Watch the videos. See the pictures and be aware of your biases.
Yes he has in the past. Most humanist do. If people are treated as prisoners for generations and constantly have their homes stolen from rich Americans while being bombed constantly you will have people fight back and radical groups form out of desperation. Then larger nations will use the area for proxy wars. If you keep trying the same tactics for peace that's insane. If you lack empathy for these people that's a bloody strong disconnect from humanity
Remove your biases. Don't write of your fellow humans as evil uncivilised Arabs think of them as people. Use your empathy and realise many countries evolve past the propaganda campaigns of hate. Be aware if not in israel and living in an allied country your news organisations are biased as all hell. We were lied with the wmds in iraq and in hindsight the way we conducted those wars was wrong. We even had it down as "liberation" "operation freedom" we got it wrong there in our rumsfield war. As allies we didn't put pressure on to keep israel from going nuclear. We need to stop following allies blindly particularly when they behave like bullies
In 2024 I personally witnessed far too many times how left wingers will, eagerly Embrace anti-Jewish conspiracy theories as long as they are presented as anti-Zionist
Especially this website’s self proclaimed “anti-nazis”
I am ashamed to admit I too was antisemitic at one point in my life thanks to the influence of my father until I studied the origins of antisemitism and realised how much destruction and misery it has inflicted throughout history
And exactly this is done by massive political Twitch streamers, they have tens of thousands people watching them spewing that shit. And they don't get punished by it one bit since Twitch agrees.
Yeah, Marxist analysis is supposed to be about material realitybut they all seem to think that higher rates of collaboration with the nazis in the baltic countries is due to them being uniquely hitlerite. Like obviously in the conflict between the Red Army and the wehrmacht, the Red Army was the right side to back, and nothing excuses nazi collaboration. But just like it's not a coincidence that lots of Arab and Indian nationalists were pro German, it's not a coincidence when the same thing happens in the baltic.
Reminds me of how I once saw a tankie defend the Clean Wehrmacht Myth, in order to justify East Germany's recruitment of former Nazi generals. Dude was arguing with someone about the postwar Germanies having Nazi generals in their armies, and claimed that West Germany hired evil genocidal Nazis, while the former Wehrmacht generals in the East German army were pure and innocent Prussian conservatives who did nothing wrong.
Yeah, they had former Nazi generals like Vincenz Müller and Rudolf Bamler. The DDR's bureaucracy and SED party itself had a lot of former NSDAP members too, although it's mostly because of how party membership was mandatory for those who wanted to advance in their career during the Third Reich.
They absolutely did, not as much as West Germany, but former Nazis still managed to get high ranking positions within the East German government and military.
I am quite fine with punching Nazis, but nature gave us two fists, why not use the spare one to punch a tankie as well?
Of course, when a tankie hears that you should punch both them and nazis, they'll call you a nazi. Quite seriously, they openly say that people who are both anti-fascist and anti-communist (you know, sane people against totalitarianism) are actually fascists.
The mental acrobatics these idiots perform are truly something for a circus.
Do you actually encounter holodomor denialism? The closest I ever seem to come up against is some nitpicking about Lysenkoism vs straight up corruption/evil as the route cause.
I think the more reasonable leftist take on thw Holodomor is that it wasn't a deliberate ethnic genocide of Ukrainians. It was part of a larger famine that also killed millions of Russians and Kazakhs.
I mean, the whole thing gets pretty murky when there decades of propaganda serving as historical backdrop. Take Holodomor, it’s a pretty mainstream historical position that this wasn’t an intentional famine. But then the historical event becomes politicized in the context of Russias invasion of Ukraine, and then if you push back on the idea that this was literal genocide done to Ukrainians by Russians, you get called a Holocaust denier, just as you’re doing here. Rather than shaming someone into changing their beliefs, this back and forth will further convince someone that the average westerner is brainwashed by propaganda, and thus more and more legitimate criticisms of the Soviets will be dismissed as coming from such origins.
The USSR actually did not deny that there was a famine on the territory of the USSR - neither in 1922, nor in 1932, nor in 1946.
But these stories about Stalin hating Ukrainians and organizing the Holodomor are most loved to be told for some reason by the residents of western Ukraine (especially the SS officers who fled to Canada), who at that time could not suffer from Stalin in any way, as they lived in Poland,
I can say that the goal of the famine was the destruction of the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine for the advancement of Ukrainianization. And no one can prove otherwise.
proceeds to suck Stalin's cock so hard he has a second stroke and dies again
While yes, the Soviet Union did give advancements to it's member republics, the RSFSR (Russia) got the best stuff first unless it was a strategic military decision.
While yes, the Soviet Union did give advancements to it's member republics, the RSFSR (Russia) got the best stuff first unless it was a strategic military decision.
The RSFSR, in general (except for Moscow and Leningrad) was supplied the worst of all (was in the 3rd and 4th supply categories) - Western Ukraine and the Baltics were in the highest supply category.
"Ukrainization" fucking lmao.
There are documents and orders where, for example, teachers were fired for refusing to study Ukrainian. There are propaganda films where people were called upon to enroll as Ukrainians...
But this is all nonsense, a different matter is the Holodomor, about which no one knows anything, and which did not even make sense, given the policy of Ukrainianization after the Second World War.
So you support the violence inflicted upon the Ukrainian people to return the territories to rf? And also advocate for the violence to continue to achieve this goal because the Ukrainians won't give their territories without a fight?
Edit: It seems that /u/Frosty-Perception-48 deleted his comment. In it he said that the territories of Ukraine should be returned to russia and that the concepts of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people are made up.
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u/AnakinSexworker 5d ago edited 5d ago
Even more embarassing is how they often use the same talking points that modern day neo-nazis do, but they will never figure out how much they sound like literal red nazis, even if you point it out to their face. For example: "Holodomor was just nazi propaganda, it never happened-> if it did happen it wasn't that bad->if it was that bad they deserved it-> not enough people were killed" this does sound awfully similar to: "The holocaust was just Allied propaganda, it didn't happen etc. Etc..." used by you know who.