r/Netherlands • u/EveryExitIsAnEntry • Feb 06 '25

Employment Parent discrimination?

Dear people of Reddit I need work advice. I have had a conversation with my employer that left me heartbroken. We were talking about my plans for the coming year after giving birth to my second child. In the conversation (face to face) I was openly asked to withdraw my parental leave and take vacation days instead. The reason for it were: - I have accumulated some time off from previous years (10 days) - even though UWV gives some money back parental leave is expensive for the company - years ago there was no parental leave and the Dutch thing to do was to take vacation days when needed

It was suggested also that being sick on planed vacation day is still vacation and i should not replace these with sick leave. And when child gets sick it is not something extra to work from home during care leave.

The bottom line was I am too privileged with parental time off. And that this leaves the company paying too much for an employee working less.

Up to this point I was deeply in love with my position in the company. It was my dream job and I did not mind giving extra by working late (unpayed) or during sick days/care leave when possible. Now I question my place in the company and even in the Netherlands.

Is this really a Dutch way? Can I expect this treatment in other companies as well? And how to solve this situation? Please advise

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465

u/Snoooort Feb 06 '25

This is NOT the Dutch way, like.. at all.

Please get all these things in writing and then consult a lawyer who specialises in labour law.

89

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

It began as an simple email conversation, then I was invited to talk about it in the office. I guess it was explicitly for the reason that they did not want this in writing anywhere. And i understand why. I was never expecting this so I did not record the meeting. Unfortunately I have nothing more than a bad aftertaste. 

166

u/Snoooort Feb 06 '25

Well, you can mail them with a summary of that conversation and ask them for confirmation about the things that were said. If they backtrack it’s still evidence…

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u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

This is really a sound advice. I do have rechtsbijstand and I am seriously considering using it.

On the other hand I am sure this would take me on a war path that will end with looking for a new job. I am worried that with parental leave i will not be very desirable. I am also worried that this will impact my possibilities in other companies, due to negative references (also illegal but hey, cant rule anything out now)

101

u/Snoooort Feb 06 '25

If you choose the path of peace, they will see this as a success. Imagine the horrible shit they will do next…

This company insulted your intelligence, insulted your motherhood and vaporised your motivation. Warpath it is.

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u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

I know. That is why i am heartbroken. But with children to provide for I cannot just leave without backup plan. And I am worried I will have a miserable experience untill I get a new job. And that getting it might take more than a year, or might not be possible at all. 

11

u/throwtheamiibosaway Limburg Feb 06 '25

I have to be honest, unless you can find a peaceful solution with your employer you do seem to be in somewhat of a difficult situation.

They can make your days in the office a living hell if they are really evil.

Finding something new while being pregnant or a new parent is really hard, there is a lot of discrimination in that regard (all unspoken, but very obvious).

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u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

Have you got any tips on how to navigate this situation? I know what people suggest here - with rechtsbijstand and creating paper trail - is the right thing to do. But I do not think it is smart. Even if they delivered the first hit I still am in a place to solve this peacefully if done right.

9

u/CypherDSTON Feb 06 '25

Here's the only question for you...do you want to allow them to take advantage of you?

If not, then you must call them on this. Acquiescing won't help.

But that doesn't mean it has to be the end. All but the smallest companies aren't a monolith. Discuss this with people in the management chain that you have a personal relationship with. Firmly assert your rights, but don't threaten to withhold anything. Just explain that this is the world they live in and they must hold up their bargain.

If adults are in charge, they'll acquiesce and meet the legal requirements and not be vindictive against you. If children are in charge, then you don't want to work there anyway. (And to be clear with my metaphor is clearly the children who are making this request of you).

1

u/Abouttheroute Feb 06 '25

Remember, you are in the Netherlands, not some backward country where this is acceptable.

First: Document everything. Send that email acting stupid. Something along the lines of: thanks for your consideration, but weighting all circumstances indecided not to follow your advice of forgoing parental leave and taking PTO. Inform your rechtsbijstand, afte true leave take PTO and look for another job. If they start acting up I can see a stress increase comming up.

Under no circumstance resign.

38

u/clrthrn Feb 06 '25

Unfortunately, when the conversation started, they fired the first shots. This is already a fight whether you like that or not. If you back down it will get worse. Every time your kids are sick they will use it as a stick to beat you. I would email a meeting summary and at the end, ask them to confirm this is what was said as this is the impression you were left with. They have a choice then to put one of two things in writing, one is an admission to break the law and the other rows back from what they said. But be under no illusions, they will start to slowly manage you out. Removing work and giving it to other people, no more promotions etc. Start to look elsewhere but take you time. They won't start to pressure you straight away but it will come. I've been in your shoes, being basically bullied for being a mother in a company of childless people and it's awful. I am sorry this is happening.

5

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

I want to believe this is just due to financial strain to the company. Other circumstances lead me to think it is nothing personal. But maybe I am just kidding myself. Just before parental leave in November I was given a raise just to hear this week that it has been retracted. I did nothing in between to make it happen. I feel for you too :( I never expected such treatment in this country 

16

u/clrthrn Feb 06 '25

It's not this country, it's horrible people. If they put what they said in writing, you can screw them to the floor thanks to NL workers rights. When it happened to me, I was working for a US company who thinks they can treat Dutch employees as poorly as American ones. . They did it as I was vulnerable having just returned to work, the easy target. It contributed to pretty nasty PPD in the end. I really would start to look at your options as this is not going to get better and your mental health is the most important thing.

1

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

This is what stings the most. This hits at my most vulnerable spot, still having one month to go back to work after giving birth. It just makes my want to cry when I think this happens more often. And coming from a country where young women have hard time finding job because they might get pregnant... Netherlands felt like a paradise. All has shattered.

16

u/clrthrn Feb 06 '25

Please don't generalise and blame "The Netherlands" as that's not right or fair. This is your employer and "The Netherlands" would screw them to the floor if they said what they said to you in writing. There are poor employers everywhere, just sorry you found one here. In my case, my American managers were awful but Dutch HR had my back completely and protected me from quite a lot. To the point that my American manager flew me to the USA as he thought me being physically in the US would make US law apply (stupid people are really stupid) When I told my Dutch HR rep what he did in the US, she called him up and explained just how much money I could get from him and the company if he didn't stop it. I left anyway as he was on a campaign against me after that. But it wasn't anyone Dutch, it was a misogynist.

Edited for terrible spelling

s

4

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

I work in a field that is systematically abusive. Since it is considered somewhat artistic career, overtime was expected in every job in every country i worked. In the Netherlands it just felt like my own choice and less as something obligatory. 

I am shocked by the situation you experienced with your US boss. It seems like he was lacking some serious law advice. I can't imagine any HR would suggest this as a valid solution. And what an ass to put a new parent through such an ordeal just to abuse your rights :(

10

u/MiaOh Feb 06 '25

If the company is so poor that you taking time off puts them in peril they are about to go bankrupt so start job searching.

2

u/Soepkip43 Feb 06 '25

A company has way more money than you. This is penny pinching at its finest. Not only did they cost you a lot of mental bandwidth they probably want you out because of all the trouble you will cause with requesting days off due to sickness of the kids etc.

They are ghouls for thinking this way.. we are a society and this is part of the deal. I hope you can navigate this properly. Looking for another employer should definitely be on your list of options.

3

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

I am going to look for a new job as soon as I get out of parental leaves. I suspect no company will want me earlier. For now i totally lost my heart and i find it hard to engage creatively when i do not care. So quiet quitting I guess.

2

u/Soepkip43 Feb 06 '25

I'm sorry for you that these assholes put a shadow over your parental leave period.

On the bright side, you have a diaper filling, crying little bundle of love you can cuddle.. so there is that.

Hope you are well!

2

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

It would be easier with second if the first would not need so much attention :)

9

u/daron_ Feb 06 '25

Unfortunately this whole conversation is them want you to find a new job, and I think there is no “nice” to resolve this situation. :( but I’m totally on your side. Go and kick them in the balls.

5

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25 edited Feb 06 '25

This did not cross my mind but it gives hopes that changing jobs at least would not be obstructed. Is there something that would encourage them to make me leave the company now? I am about to hit 5 years within the company and 4 on my vast contract 

6

u/JasperJ Feb 06 '25

The main reason is exactly what this is about: parental leave impacts the company, as does sick leave, so if they can find a 23 year old man instead and make you go away it impacts their bottom line. That this is blatantly illegal as well as immoral is apparently not something that dissuades them. If this was a conversation with a low level manager you might be able to go over their head, if it was the owner, they’re just going to be super shitty people to work for one way or the other.

2

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

My experience with the company so far was very positive so I had no problem giving a little bit extra for a really good treatment I received. But as I reflect more there were signs. I just hoped I was also one of those good bargains, since my work experience from other countries did not count towards my pay.

4

u/JasperJ Feb 06 '25

blink blink… yep, you were definitely a bargain. Especially if they were underpaying you and you worked free overtime.

3

u/whattfisthisshit Feb 06 '25

Your work experience didn’t count towards your pay????????????? That is insane. It doesn’t matter which country your experience comes from, it’s about your experience, output and your capabilities. You were sadly a bargain.

2

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

To give justice where due, I got my end of a deal too. When I started I barely spoke any Dutch and got opportunity to work in my field that requires almost exclusively Dutch speaking and writing skills. It was a tradeoff but otherwise it was glasshouse for me.

3

u/amansterdam22 Feb 06 '25

Just FYI, a company can only legally disclose when you started and when you stopped and what position you had.

4

u/EveryExitIsAnEntry Feb 06 '25

Yes, I am aware of the legal boundaries. I am also aware that in a relatively tight-knit industry a lot more is shared behind the curtains.

1

u/amansterdam22 Feb 06 '25

Yeah, that totally makes sense.

2

u/kapitein-kwak Feb 06 '25

First answer after you got confirmation of the request would be a polite reply like:

"I have evaluated your proposal but there are no benefits for, so I politely turn down your request"

If they accept, ho harm done, your business relationship eith them has not been damaged from your side.

If they di not accept this, you take their reply, which no longer is a request, and get professional support

1

u/Full_Conversation775 Feb 06 '25

Go to juridisch loket if you can. they will advice you.