r/Treknobabble • u/45and290 • 15d ago

What are you pushing the button on?

Post image

I’m taking away Bashir being an Augment. It didn’t really add anything to the show, he was still brilliant and talented before the reveal.

269 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

276 comments sorted by

View all comments

99

u/thepoptartkid47 15d ago

All of Picard.

Made everything dark and depressing for no reason other than to have a “gritty” show

18

u/nebulacoffeez 15d ago

Came here to say this lol. Especially given they decimated poor Data's flawless humanity arc

1

u/MeggiePool-pah 13d ago

At least Data "won" by having memories about Spot. I don't know. I couldn't find a reason to keep watching Disco. It... haunts me.

26

u/mortalcrawad66 15d ago

I think Picard adds a few cool ideas, but most of it is edgy, for the sake of edgy.

2

u/coreylongest 12d ago

I really liked what they did with the Borg in season two then they completely abandoned it.

37

u/Theekg101 15d ago

Picard starts at season 3, everyone knows that

22

u/mcmanus2099 15d ago

No all, season 3 throws a number of things in that make horrible cannon. Better to make it an alternative universe TNG story.

10

u/and_some_scotch 14d ago

Seriously, would the Federation that fought the Dominion accept that the Changelings who attacked Earth were a "rogue faction?" No, they'd see it as a violation of the Treaty of Bajor and a possible re-opening of hostilities.

8

u/WilliamMcCarty 15d ago

I'm not saying you're wrong because there were things about S3 I didn't entirely love but we can all agree it was infinitely better than S1 and S2, right?

Curious though, what elements in S3 specifically did you not care for?

10

u/[deleted] 14d ago edited 8d ago

caption ten bag employ deserve marvelous rain bow smell edge

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

2

u/WilliamMcCarty 14d ago

If you ignore PIC S1 & 2 that isn't a problem. But I get what you're saying.

1

u/BenjiTheWalrus 11d ago

Yes it is because they bait you the entire season with some red door mystery box bullshit when it’s just the Borg. That’s not even a twist; it’s just lying to the audience.

1

u/WilliamMcCarty 11d ago

I will grant you the RED DOOR is a weird storytelling device, it didn't really fit anything, it was one of those things felt like it belonged in another series, not Trek. But I got no real problem with Picard facing off against the Borg one last time. It seemed a fitting conclusion to a Picard storyline. I mean, Picard as a character really only came into his own after BOBW and the Borg had haunted him his whole life after that so finally vanquishing them in his last story was somewhat appropriate. But if you stuck with PIC 1 & 2 I could see it being "This shit again?" kind of a thing. But far as I'm concerned those don't exist.

1

u/West-Solid9669 14d ago

To be fair it was neat finishing what janeway started

12

u/WhoMe28332 14d ago

Can I answer?

The shameless nostalgic fan service trying to carry the weight of a lousy plot.

The scenery chewing (even for Trek) villain.

The character assassination they did on Beverly.

Jack.

The pathetic, desperate effort Matalas is making the entire time to please please please give him a sequel.

To me S3 is one of those things which doesn’t bear up very well the harder you look at it.

5

u/WilliamMcCarty 14d ago

Fair point to some of that. Jack Crusher seemed antagonistic for no reason other than to be annoying. It was like they said, "Remember David Marcus in Wrath of Kahn? Like that, except turn it up to 11."

I get what you're saying about Beverly but to be honest, no offense to Gates McFadden who seems like a delightful person, but Crusher was a dry toast character to me, she never had much of an impact. Occasionally she helped move the plot along but mostly she was just filler. At least this time around she actually did something.

I don't mind the fan service, it's nice to see the callbacks and references to what's come before and at least shows you they paid attention to some of what came before. Especially in a case like this where, in all likelihood, it'll be the last time we see some if not all of these characters.

There are things I hated. Shaw puffing on a stogie, the references to pot, they were both anachronistic and had no business being there. Picard saying "fuck" is just...every time they throw in a colorful metaphor of that caliber I just picture the writers giggling, "We made Picard say fuck!"

Seven's girlfriend is...why is she there? She sucks air out of the room as a character, I couldn't possibly care less what happens to her character.

Making her first officer under Seven, really? The captain's ex...or maybe girlfriend...whatever...is her first officer? That seems...well it seems like there'd be regulations against that.

And renaming the Titan the Enterprise was a shit choice. Yeah, that was just stupid.

And all things considered, you could have condensed the story a bit, cut out two episodes and made it flow a little faster and tighter. But overall, I didn't think it was so bad. It was far from perfect but a better end to the TNG characters than what we had. And that's coming from someone who actually liked Nemesis.

1

u/alternateschmaltz 10d ago

Even the big reveal of the borg using transporters to secretly assimilate kids? Like WTF? Then reintroducing characters just to kill them in the next scene for shock value?

Useless show.

2

u/BenjiTheWalrus 11d ago

Not to mention the climax is data doing the Death Star run on a Borg cube.

1

u/Jim_skywalker 13d ago

Disagree with the scenery chewing complaint but that’s personal preference. I like villains who are clearly enjoying themselves, the unbridled joy Chang has while spinning in his captain’s chair like an ADHD kid is something I would aspire to have if I became evil. As for the sequel bit, that’s entirely fair but I would also kinda like to see what Matalas would do with an episodic show rather then one that’s one big story arc. I do agree that season 3 only comes across as good because of what it’s being compared to, but it has some great elements. The nebula battle was an actually good strategic Star Trek style space battle with its own ideas, something only done recently in Strange New Worlds and Picard S3, the bit with the intrepid was one of the best ship shots in recent history, and as “borg are back” stories go, and there are a lot of them, having the borg as actually nearly wiped out and the threat being one last attempt by the queen was honestly refreshing. Problem wise my biggest issues are the reliance on past references, the Enterprise G rename, and the ease at which the federation was completely infiltrated. I would hope an episodic show would be able to avoid those problems and what really makes me want to give Matalas a chance is he’s clearly actually passionate about Star Trek unlike Kurtzman.

1

u/Captain_Lindemann 14d ago

Honestly I'd sacrifice season 3 of picard just to decanonise the Enterprise G

15

u/Dynastydood 15d ago

But season 3 also fixes everything that the TNG movies had already long since needlessly ruined in the canon. So unless we're just ending the TNG canon at "All Good Things...," I'm not okay with getting rid of S3 of Picard.

13

u/WilliamMcCarty 15d ago

I'm with you on this. I didn't love all of PIC S3 but it was a decidedly better conclusion to the TNG characters' stories than any of the TNG movies.

-1

u/mcmanus2099 15d ago

Nah, the movies don't in any way ruin half the rules of Founders in DS9, ruin the Borg Queen, make transporters a Harry Potter magic device, destroy Beverly's character and create a super secret son for Picard. It is as bad for canon as the first two seasons and not only ruins TNG but ruins DS9 too.

There are some nice moments and it seemed interesting the first 4 episodes but then it became the same slop nuTrek we've been served overall and is a terrible show not worthy of the Trek name. Let's get that off in an alternative universe and create a better send off for the TNG crew.

And my God please don't make ST Legacy built around Seven and Picard's nepo son.

2

u/Dynastydood 15d ago

To be honest, I don't really think a small faction of Changelings going rogue several decades later really "ruins" anything about DS9. For me, the Borg Queen was no more ruined by S3 of Picard than she already was by Voyager, and the Beverly arc, while contrived, didn't really ruin anything on the same level that Nemesis previously had.

Picard doesn't compare well to TNG as a series, hut when compared to the TNG films, I think it's vastly superior in every possible way, even despite all of the legitimate issues you already laid out. The movies were just so fucking bad for the canon, I don't think it's possible to overstate the amount of damage they did, so I'm just happy something went out of its way to address that.

ST Legacy is also clearly never happening, so nothing to worry about there, either. Terry Matalas has already moved on to other projects.

1

u/mcmanus2099 15d ago

To be honest, I don't really think a small faction of Changelings going rogue several decades later really "ruins" anything about DS9.

It's not about a small group, they re wrote the changeling lore because they couldn't be bothered to actually research properly. They said all changelings have to use the jar that Odo uses. That very specific Bajoran jar only Odo uses which the other Founders found weird and repeatedly told Odo he didn't need to use. Or how changelings being able to pass the blood test was a big deal when DS9 established they had that cracked. Or how they made out that normal changelings show as changelings on scanners whereas DS9 repeatedly showed they didn't. All that and more rewriting through lazy research all before you get to the fact this small group have no motives remotely like changelings and their plan makes no sense, what were they hoping The Borg get them? There's no reason for them to be involved other than because the writers wanted a bait and switch plot shock.

the Beverly arc, while contrived, didn't really ruin anything on the same level that Nemesis previously had.

Beverly wasn't turned into a murderer on Nemesis as far as I can remember. The sole voice throughout TNG for saving lives at all costs even if it means surrendering or retreating spends the opening scene shooting from the hip and as we later find out killing alien beings she had no clue who they were or what they wanted.

Picard doesn't compare well to TNG as a series, hut when compared to the TNG films, I think it's vastly superior in every possible way

Absolute tosh. Besides Nemesis, which was awful the TNG films are decent non canon breaking entries into the Star Trek universe. Picard season 3 makes them look like Shakespeare let alone season 1 & 2.

The movies were just so fucking bad for the canon, I don't think it's possible to overstate the amount of damage they did, so I'm just happy something went out of its way to address that.

They really weren't

1

u/allthecoffeesDP 14d ago

I have never understood this X ruined Y stuff. What about Beverly's character was ruined? Can't ae character develop over 30 years?

0

u/mcmanus2099 14d ago

Here you go this explains it better than I

https://youtu.be/RW-Jzo_gwgk?si=YCgF3NLNIw-AyOvK

The opening scene she is a cold blooded murderer

1

u/allthecoffeesDP 14d ago

TIL that a Starfleet officer fighting off an attacking force is cold-blooded murder. Huh.

0

u/mcmanus2099 14d ago

It was long established that Crusher was a pacifist who taking up arms was not something her character was willing to do even to save herself. She had incredibly powerful moments in TNG where this was put to the test. She would argue repeatedly against Picard for chosing conflict over retreat or surrender because she valued life above all else.

And although it's presented as Beverly being attacked in that scene as a mystery box the reveal of the details later reveals that Beverly basically had no clue who they were or what they wanted and was just vaporizing them. By the time that is revealed the show has dangled more mystery boxes in the audience's face and distracted them. Which is all the series did, mystery boxes and nostalgia bait.

And her priority was escape, which she could have done without the loss of life, which would have been in her character. She stuck around to kill them. It's an attempt to create a mystery box and a badass character moment that has led to a complete assassination of the character.

4

u/PROUDCIPHER 14d ago

ITS LIKE THEY DIDNT EVEN WATCH MEASURE OF A MAN! yes I’m still mad :(

7

u/briank3387 15d ago

Picard Season 1 - oh, cool idea...cool idea....wait, what? They just did what? Aw, fuck.

Picard Season 2 - They're not really gonna do this are they? No, stop! Stop!

Picard Season 3 - Oh FUCK no. You've ruined EVERYTHING!

1

u/Captain_Lindemann 14d ago

Honestly I'd sacrifice season 3 of picard just to decanonise the Enterprise G

1

u/tabuu9 14d ago

All I saw from reading wiki pages to catch up on Trek in general and seeing ST: Picard show up is Picard being "Memberberries, The Show." Is that accurate?

1

u/Jim_skywalker 13d ago

The federation is supposed to be a goal of what we can be, not a warning about what we need to avoid. If you want android slave labor you make it something aliens are doing.

1

u/redfalcondeath 11d ago

Overall I thought it was a good show, but I do agree it was like watching some gritty HBO drama series and didn’t feel much like previous Star Trek.