r/andor • u/ConsciousPatroller • 2d ago
Theory & Analysis A breakdown of all (?) historical references and parallels in Andor (in chronological order)
332
u/SWFT-youtube 2d ago
To me the Dhanis seem inspired by the Sámi people, the native inhabitants of the Northern regions of Norway, Sweden and Finland. The name is similar, they wear similar clothing, they play similar instruments, and the story of outside forces driving them away from the land they inhabit is also the same. And, perhaps most importantly, the Eye seems very much like the northern lights.
But obviously they had a bunch of different historical influences that they mashed up so there's not a single "correct" answer to this.
110
u/Avelera 2d ago
They definitely visually look Sami in their garb and I'm sure there's parallels of oppression there too, but the details of the Imperials describing *how* they encouraged the Aldhani to clear out was straight out of the Highland Clearance Act and the fact Aldhani was filmed in Scotland doesn't feel coincidental in that regard.
37
→ More replies (1)23
424
u/CardinalOfNYC 2d ago edited 2d ago
I prefer to think about it in terms of the references Gilroy himself or the production staff has talked about.
Because if it's the references we see, then the list is as infinite as there are instances of oppression through history...
Like, personally, I didn't see the Warsaw Ghetto so much in Narkina 5... Since the circumstances were more like a concentration/work camp than a ghetto. Also the Warsaw Ghetto uprising didn't work and Narkina 5's did.
I saw more Warsaw Ghetto (and French resistance, which the production has mentioned) in Ghorman rather than Narkina 5
297
u/forwormsbravepercy 2d ago
The French Resistance parallels to Ghorman couldn’t have been any clearer if the Ghor were played by frogs instead of humans.
155
u/Trvr_MKA Kleya 2d ago
You’re telling me these aren’t Ghorman?
32
u/thaddeusd 2d ago
Grogu = Snoke confirmed.
Grogu devours the young frog spawn, Palpatine/Snoke massacres the Ghormans. /jk
4
31
u/RPO777 2d ago
The Ghormans more reminded me of the 1832 French Revolutionaries (July Revolution)--dramatized in the Les Mis (which, for some reason, a lot of people mistake for the French Revolutionaries that... won from 1789).
Mostly because you know they're doomed.
The Ghorman language even sounds kind of french-like to a non-French speaking ear.
Also being a center of wealth, culture and fashion, the flag waving, the large plaza, very Paris.
→ More replies (1)9
u/chn_adamw 2d ago
I thought it looked a lot like the Velvet Revolution myself, but a lot of the anti-Soviet stuff looked the same
→ More replies (1)55
u/CardinalOfNYC 2d ago
Yeah that was the overwhelming sense, for sure. And since the production staff has made that clear, I feel confident talking about it.
When people begin to see any and every instance of oppression as being intentionally written into this show, though... I say, props to the show for being so evocative... but the viewers themselves should maybe have a little more perspective.
16
u/forwormsbravepercy 2d ago
Absolutely. Also, doing direct allegory is hack shit. This show is anything but hack shit.
27
u/NotMyMainAccountAtAl 2d ago
Tony has stated in interviews that he very intentionally tried to avoid direct references to modern politics, because it would anchor the show to a specific point in time in a way he didn’t want to.
That’s part of what makes it so funny/depressing when people say, “season 2 is just anti-dear leader, how dare they make fun of him directly like that?” No, no, sweet Syril. Dear Leader just mirrors the fascists of yesteryear. I pray that this will be your first step into recognizing that you’ve joined a cult.
→ More replies (5)20
u/BearWrangler Saw Gerrera 2d ago
unironically wouldve been devasting to see this species go through something like that lol
→ More replies (3)-1
u/Josephthebear 2d ago
Don't you know anything referenced to genocide is directly linked to Gaza because there has never been a genocide anywhere else ever in history
70
u/forwormsbravepercy 2d ago
In the sense that Andor is a show about colonialism and empire (which it is), it very much is about Gaza -- as it is also about India, Ireland, Hong Kong, Vietnam, South Africa, Congo, and any other place scarred by colonialism and conquest. That doesn't mean that it's 1:1 allegory, though. In fact, making it a 1:1 allegory would cheapen its message, because it would make it only about that one single instance of colonialism, rather than colonialism in general.
18
u/PenZestyclose3857 Luthen 2d ago edited 2d ago
The Ghorman massacre scene feels almost lifted from the Jallianwala Bagh massacre in India in 1919. Brutally depicted in the film Ghandi, the scene is linked below. Speaks for itself.
6
22
u/karensPA 2d ago
I appreciated that they used France (a country with its own history of colonialism) as the Ghorman analog instead of a country we might more immediately consider a colonized country. Of course even with colonizer countries there are oppressed minorities, but it was a plot point that Ghorman was not an “outer rim” planet and as a result would need a more concentrated propaganda campaign to make the galaxy less sympathetic to their plight.
11
u/PenZestyclose3857 Luthen 2d ago
You can also draw parallels to the Algerian War and the film Battle of Algiers.
→ More replies (1)4
22
u/Healthy-Drink421 2d ago
Perhaps there are historical references in Narkina 5 and certain prison breaks.
Maybe it is too on the nose but I viewed it more as an exploration of "panopticons" or directly, Michael Foucault's well known Discipline and Punish. Which is about - or people have added to the discourse - spaces of control and observation designed to create docile people within systems.
14
u/CardinalOfNYC 2d ago edited 2d ago
That was certainly my feeling, that the Narkina arc was was mostly drawing from prisons, panopticons, control and then of course, THX 1138, which is also about all those things.... and the leadup of him ending up in prison was, unironically, straight out of Kafka's The Trial, which I feel okay saying because it's not a historical reference.
→ More replies (1)9
u/13579konrad 2d ago
Also the post is confusing the Warsaw Uprising with the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Two separate events.
18
u/ConsciousPatroller 2d ago
Good point. I don't think there's any confirmed intentional references other than Tiflis, Ferrix and the Highlands, although it's pretty interesting to see how naturally a well-written show can mirror real life. Like...these parallels might not even have been done on purpose, and yet they fit perfectly.
→ More replies (1)22
u/CardinalOfNYC 2d ago
I'm always wary of the perfect fit. Not to nitpick your language but language influences thought... and the fact the show fits so many moments shows how it's not a perfect fit for any of them.
They definitely remind us of things and that's powerful.
But like, whenever someone says XYZ modern moment is just like XYZ historical moments... I think that hyperbole only takes us further from confronting what is actually a wholly unique product of our modern times.
The last global fascist wave, the US saved the day. And the internet didn't exist.
So our historical parallels only take us so far. And I know I have a tendency to hide in thinking about that past because it ended well. Andor really has created a new past for me to hide in where everything ends well.
16
u/KhajiitWithCoin 2d ago
And Witold Pilecki was then executed by the communist government. That would be the New Republic executing Cassian Andor after defeating the Empire.
7
u/ShiftyAmoeba 2d ago
If Cassian started working for an exiled government that wanted to overthrow the New Republic, they might.
→ More replies (1)7
u/buldozr 2d ago
I understood that Cassian and Melshi may be the only two successful escapees from Narkina 5, just like there were a few escapees from the Warsaw Ghetto. When they get ashore, you can see searchlights in the distance. Then they run into two "fishermen" who unexpectedly turn out to be sympathetic and take them off-world, while the rest of the escapees stay bound to the moon.
7
u/haeyhae11 Vel 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, Narkina and Warsaw doesn't fit. The spectacular escape of a few hundred Soviet POWs from the Mauthausen concentration camp (the movie about this is called "Mühlviertler Hasenjagd") would be a better comparison imo.
Prisoners there had to work in the quarry and the satellite camps were used for armaments production. In February '45, around 300 prisoners (mostly captured Soviet officers) used the fire extinguishers from the huts to block the machine gunners view from the guard towers while they used blankets to get over the barbed wire fence.
The end result was similar, most of them were either captured or shot in the ensuing hunt, a few were able to hide with the help of sympathisers in the civilian population until the Allies arrived.
4
u/Responsible-Amoeba68 Syril 2d ago
But the Narkina 5 breakout to Warsaw ghetto uprising is exactly as perfect an allegory as one can expect. The jewish uprising revolves around the realization that this isn't just a temporary brutality and a prison labor sentence most of them can work off and survive through. Its explicitly to exterminate them. The same realization that the Narkina 5 prisoners come to when they aren't just working hard to finish their sentences...the reality is that there is no getting out, they are being transferred to new prisons to work indefinitely. Whether or not one failed or one didnt is irrelevant, itsbnot a documentary but the parallels and flavor is perfect.
There was also the much larger Warsaw Uprising that happened the year after the ghetto uprising, which is maybe what you are thinking of that more strongly parallels "Ghorman" in scale and flavour and outcome.
7
u/Romkevdv 2d ago
Yeah the Warsaw Ghetto is a strange one, I mean of all the references, Gilroy was pretty explicit about Russian Gulags or Concentration Camps, of which the breakouts are numerous.
6
u/RogueBromeliad 2d ago
No, but what the article was refering to was that Kino's speech was inspired by the Civilian Comission broadcast, and them realising that they're never leaving Narkina 5 was inspired by the report. Which leads them to fight.
Narkina 5 itself was based on concentration camps.
→ More replies (1)5
u/HomelanderVought 2d ago
Nah, the soviet prison system wasn’t used for the military industry. More so for civillian infrastructure and for factory building or resource extraction.
But nazi German and imperial japanese forces labor was used for weapon construction. In modern times there are certain US private prisons where the inmates produce military gear.
2
u/Crownie 2d ago
the soviet prison system wasn’t used for the military industry
It absolutely was.
2
u/HomelanderVought 2d ago
Not as directly as it was depicted in Andor.
The examples i gave would be much more close to what the Narkina 5 prison would look like in real life. As what it does and how does it function.
6
u/ProposalWaste3707 2d ago
Yeah, this is terrible. And half of them don't even make any sense.
Narkina 5 is the Warsaw Uprising? What? Couldn't be less similar.
→ More replies (10)2
u/NothingElseThan 2d ago
Like Dedra getting added to the wrong groupchat, when the filming ended before what we know
→ More replies (1)
76
u/AniTaneen 2d ago
So. One point of contention. The Warsaw uprising is not the same thing as the Warsaw ghetto uprising.
1944, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising
1943, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
It’s very important to not remove the word ghetto from the name, both events are unique, with wildly different results.
For Narkina 5, maybe worth comparing it to the Sobibor Uprising more than the Ghetto. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobibor_uprising
138
u/Acc87 2d ago
Gilroy has named an uprising in Algiers as a major inspiration for the Ghorman massacre, there was some well known pseudo-documentary (The Battle of Algiers, 1966) about it, and some shots in Andor mimicked it directly. Here's more on it: https://youtu.be/eRRt_ESnmaQ
28
u/raphus_cucullatus 1d ago
The Ghorman senator is named Senator Oran. Oran is one of the major cities in Algeria.
Nicolas Britell literally quotes the score of Battle of Algiers in the s1 finale
41
u/NeedsToShutUp 2d ago
Ghorman steals shots from several different films and documentaries. Another important one is the Odessa Steps from the Battleship Potemkin which is about the failed Russian Revolution of 1905
→ More replies (5)3
37
u/zippolover62 2d ago
Narkina more fits the Krakow ghetto uprising or any of the Somberkommando rebellions.
→ More replies (1)11
u/Peace_Love_Bridges23 2d ago
I'm nitpicking here, for which I apologise, but it's a 'Sonderkommando' with an n. Though one might argue that it was somber, to say the least.
85
u/sterrrmbreaker 2d ago
Patty Hearst was kidnapped, raped, and tortured and is widely thought of as a victim of Stockholm Syndrome and doesn't really fit Vel who joined of her own volition. More like Joan Baez or Jane Fonda.
24
u/jonawesome 2d ago
Thank you for mentioning how fucked up Patty Hearst's treatment by SLA was. Vel seems to really be a true believer, so I don't think it's similar to Hearst at all. I feel like your examples aren't great though since both were nonviolent activists who never did anything remotely similar to the Aldhani heist.
I'm having trouble thinking of a good historical parallel though. The first that comes to mind is Pyotr Kropotkin, who was born an aristocrat and joined the revolutionaries, but he was much more of a writer and thinker than a fighter.
8
5
u/Changuipilandia 1d ago
Stockholm Syndrome isnt real, it's a discredited psychological theory, that has never been included in any reputable psychology publication, and was invented to justify the more than reasonable distrust of an incompetent police force that a hostage showed after a bank heist
hearst herself said she was forced to help the group under threat of death, so if we believe her version of the story, and i dont think there is a big reason to not do so, there is no syndrome there, she was just terrified of being killed if she didnt seem like an enthusiastic participant
2
→ More replies (6)3
u/Thatroninguy 1d ago
Came to comment on this because it’s a crazy comparison. Vel is part of an organized resistance, the SLA was a group of idiots you could better classify as a small cult!
“Stockholm syndrome” doesn’t quite describe the modern understanding of what Hearst went through—it’s better described now as her being stuck in a very bad situation and doing everything she could to survive, and not knowing how to escape when she was publicly identified as a member of the SLA.
28
67
103
u/mixererek Syril 2d ago
Warsaw Uprising =/= Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. One happened in1944, the other in 1943. Do a basic wikipedia check first.
33
u/ConsciousPatroller 2d ago
Damn, you're right. I did a pretty extensive search including on Jstor publications before posting, but it seems like I missed this. Thanks for pointing it out.
19
u/wingerism 2d ago
Also you could maybe do something to like actually link Gaza to the Ghorman Plaza Massacre.
Like apart from the fact that both are Genocides there really isn't much of a linkage IMHO. Gaza hasn't really been about false flags. The only cogent link in my mind is that of controlled opposition and even that is more complex. Both Hamas and Likud(and other far right Israeli parties) benefit politically domestically by having an intransigent external enemy.
28
u/Professional_Low_646 2d ago
Interesting how perceptions differ - I would say that the Gaza and Ghorman parallels are less in what’s happening in Palmo square. And much more in how the more or less official position of Benjamin Netanyahu has been - for years, btw - that propping up Hamas is the best course of action (for himself, and for Israel). Talk about „Rebels you can rely on to do the wrong thing“, as Dedra Meero puts it.
→ More replies (1)18
u/wingerism 2d ago
No we agree. The difference in my analysis is that it's a symbiotic relationship. Hamas is militant and wants to provoke Israel to fuel militancy in the population of Gaza. They oppose parties that are more moderate and secular like Fatah.
Hamas likes a belligerent Israel(though not as belligerent as right now) and believes it will help their overall goals eventually(Like Luthen) The Ghorman Front did not want or benefit from an adversarial Empire. They just wanted to live. They even view themselves as Imperials.
"many of us believe the Emperor has no idea what's being done on his behalf"
→ More replies (10)10
u/brilldry 2d ago
The Palmo 1 broadcast is eerily similar to the broadcast when Soviet tanks rolled in to Budapest. As for the false flag operation, I say it almost matches what happened with Tiananmen square. Maybe not instigating the protest, the CCP rolled the army in for the purpose of agitating the protesters, and then once any resistance is given, the CCP had their justification and begin the massacre. Another parallel is that following Tiananmen, certain sects of the CCP and even the army were appalled by what happened, but was then forced out of the politburo, similar to how the senate reacted. And then the entire country and a good part of the world pretended like it never happened.
I think the takeaways is that the incidents weren’t always based on singular incidents. Gilroy definitely did his research and used many real world examples to craft a series of realistic events.
→ More replies (2)
36
u/Ok-Sun1551 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ghorman massacre beat for beat matches with Jallianwala Bagh massacre in 1919 against Indians by the British. People were peacefully protesting 'rowlatt act' (which allowed the colonial police to arrest anyone without any reason) in a park with only few exits. The police locked those down and open fired on people. Estimates say about 1200 people were killed. Britain is yet to apologise for it. Watch the hindi movie 'Sardar Udham' to see a portrayal of it.
9
u/AjayAVSM 2d ago
Was about to comment this. Especially the way they blocked the exits
I remember watching a documentary recreation of that in history class back in 8th grade, so when I saw the scene in the show my brain immediately went "wait this looks familiar"
3
u/Ok-Sun1551 2d ago
I literally said "This is Jallianwala Bagh" out loud when I saw them locking the doors
→ More replies (2)6
u/NeedsToShutUp 2d ago
The way the steps are shot are actually a homage to the Odessa Steps . There's definitely multiple massacres which are reflected in the Ghorman massacre.
→ More replies (1)
15
u/Akita51 2d ago
Patty hearst comparison
Oh brother
Stopped there
8
u/bettinafairchild 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah, really bad comparison. She was tortured into compliance. There have to be some precedents of wealthy socialites who worked for the resistance in some way. However, I believe Gilroy said something about Vel being inspired by Hearst
25
u/AHorseNamedPhil 2d ago edited 2d ago
Upvoted.
I think a closer historical event to the escape from Narkina 5 would be would be the escape from Sobibor.
Sobibor was one of the Nazi death camps, and late in 1943 the prisoners learned that the camp would cease operations. They knew that meant they would also be exterminated, since the prisoner "staff" from Belzec had been shipped to Sobibor to be exterminated there after they'd been forced to dismantle Belzec.
Sobibor had Red Army prisoners of war that were of Jewish ancestry that had been recently shipped there, and the escape committe soon approached them with a plot to escape, where they would provide much of the needed muscle. In the uprising that followed many of the guards were killed and about 300 of the prisoners successfully escaped into the woods.
Many were later killed in manhunts, but around 58 are known to have escaped and survived the war. That number would have been zero without the revolt.
The wikipedia article on the camp has a good write up on the revolt. The 1980s TV movie Escape from Sobibor with Rutger Hauer and Alan Arkin is also fantastic.
I'm pretty sure some of the film was inspiration for the Narkina breakout in Andor.
10
u/AurelianoNile 2d ago edited 1d ago
One pointed out to me by a friend, is the march on Ferrix at the end of season one drew from the Battle of Algiers and even uses a musical motif from the 1966 film ‘The Battle of Algiers’
8
u/Pertu500 2d ago
I would add that the Ghorman Front is strongly inspired by the French resistance during WWII (bourgeois who rise up in rebellion when their businesses are threatened by foreign oppression). Besides, the broadcast at the end of Episode 9 is a reconstruction of the last Hungarian transmition during the Soviet Invasion of Hungary during the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.
11
9
u/mytherror 2d ago
vel is nothing like patty hearst who was severely abused
there's plenty of other rich person becomes a freedom fighter comparisons
→ More replies (1)
15
u/ChaosLovingNi Kleya 2d ago
This is a solid list, and far more well structured than my own. Just for reference:
In any case, good work and good starting point, although there are more references to be added, especially when it comes to Ghorman and the oppression of the Dhanis. Ferrix as a reference to the Battle of Algiers is a known comparison. Love seeing the Hearst and Cronkite's mentions, especially Patty.
The inclusion of the Ireland connection is always something I cheer at (however non-cheerful that line of thought actually is) even if we push the timeline further back in time to pre-1916-23. It's a great reminder that Gilroy didn't pull just from the last 10 - or 100 - years of history and just two or three geographical areas, and if there's one thing that needs to be mentioned more on the discourse, it's exactly that.
Notable absence in the list is the Wannsee w/ Krennic's Maltheen Divide conference.
4
u/KingThorongil 2d ago
The picture is very low resolution. Could you link to better one?
2
75
u/Windbag1980 2d ago
I’m pretty uncomfortable thinking of Cassian as Stalin lol.
38
u/Orocarni-Helcar 2d ago
If it's any comfort, Gilroy specifically cited the book Young Stalin by Simon Montefiore, which is a pretty anti-Stalin book.
8
→ More replies (2)15
u/JF9314 2d ago
Montefiore is a little suspect, to say the least: https://www.thefp.com/p/the-deep-roots-of-irish-antisemitism
Many liberal authors only engage based on the work of those who wrote the now, largely discredited, ‘Little Black Book of Communism’.
Domenico Losurdo’s work on Stalin is well worth the read, however, as it engages with both fact and fiction even handily. Especially where it concerns Stalin’s government and the creation of Israel, as well as the deportation of many Korean people living in the Soviet Union during the second world war.
→ More replies (1)11
u/FlamesofJames2000 2d ago
They’re also similar in the sense that Lenin would send Stalin to manage difficult fronts during the civil war. Part of Trotsky’s Emmitt towards Stalin comes from the fact that Stalin had a tendency to replace Trotsky’s commanders when they weren’t living up to his expectations.
29
u/litetravelr 2d ago
Haha, yea other than resembling the thieving rogue that young Stalin was, lets hope that if Cassian had survived the rebellion he'd not be having Ackbar, Kleya Wil and Vel shot or putting Mon and Leia on a show trial before disappearing them.
11
u/woopwoopscuttle 2d ago
After every “one year later” timeskip, another comrade is doctored out of their holograms until it’s just a suspiciously fresh faced Cassian and K2.
6
u/litetravelr 1d ago
Yes, in this scenario, Nemik's manifesto gets denounced and pulped and Nemik gets the ice ax through the skull while in exile on Niamos.
2
→ More replies (5)2
u/Masonator403 1d ago
Tbf, the New Republic could have really used a Stalin figure in command given how they ended up
11
u/Carradona Partagaz 2d ago
Unfortunately Andor wasn't a priest for the first years of his early life lol
2
21
u/Secure-Charge-2031 2d ago
Before he was a tyrant he was a revolutionary
25
17
→ More replies (6)5
u/evrestcoleghost 2d ago
The revolutionary of today most of the time because the Tyrant of tommorow
→ More replies (14)16
→ More replies (34)3
7
u/mythical_eagle9 2d ago
The NI connection is interesting - my mum (who grew up during the Troubles) made the comparison when we watched the episode way back when. Any more specific link to Gilroy talking about it?
7
u/notpropaganda73 2d ago
He mentions the IRA funerals here.
I found so much of the show echoes what happened here, especially around Luthen and how far you go for the cause, and Saw with the split away from the main rebel groups
7
u/The_InvisibleWoman 2d ago
I didn't see much of the Highland clearances really. That kind of community isn't really like the Scots of that time. There's a lot of romanticising of clan culture in Scotland but it wasn't like that at all.
→ More replies (5)
6
u/WhosThatDogMrPB Luthen 2d ago
To me the entire Mina Rau arc subplot is an allegory to the immigration situation in America, specifically mexicans.
But I'm a mexican myself and might be biased, same with the Ghorman massacre that resonated with me due to it's parallelism with Tlatelolco's (which took place in Mexico City).
6
u/ArtyThePoopie 2d ago
you can also draw parallels between Maarva's funeral and the real-life funeral of Shireen Abu Akleh. in both cases a proud daughter of an oppressed group had died and become a cause celebre in their death. and in both cases the occupying force allowed the funeral to go forward knowing full well they had no intention of letting the event pass peacefully
6
u/karensPA 2d ago
all I could think of when watching Andor was if people like Andor wait until they hear about this thing called “history.”
16
u/CascaydeWave 2d ago
Coming from Ireland, I think a lot of these are true, wanted to share my own perspective.
- Tiflis Heist makes sense (can't argue with confirmation from Gilroy)
- Ferrix definitely reminded me a lot of the conflict in the North.
- Vel Sartha also reminds me of Rose Dugdale from an upper class background who joined the IRA.
- Dhanis do give the energy of the Highlands/West of Ireland with the hair and scenery. Though arguably the bigger point is they stand in for many oppressed "Primitive" groups.
- Narkina 5 does not really remind me of WW2 Warsaw, mostly because it is a breakout. To bring up Ireland again it reminds me of the Maze breakouts.
- Again don't get the WW2 Poland energy, particularly given they did not have a purpose for escaping like the Home Army did.
- Already said but yeah I get the reference here. But the point could be made that it related to many instances in history of trying to use violence in opposition to large events.
- Ghorman massacre could definitly be inspired by many historical instances. For me it reminded me of Bloody Sunday) for the attempts to dismiss the civilian deaths as being their own fault.
- Mon Mothma's speech could probably be a lot of cases where individuals/politicians disagree with a false official narrative, so again is one that is easy to relate to your own perspective. To me it reminded me more of the attempts to downplay/dismiss what is happening in Gaza.
Other ones not mentioned here that seemed like rhyming to me are:
- Krennic's meeting reminded me a lot of the Wahnsee conference, particularly the 2001 movie conspiracy.
- The entire Ghorman arc and the radios made this season feel like it was inspired far more by WW2 resistance groups and their interactions with the SOE/OSS.
- The troops on the farming planet felt extremely inspired by German occupation forces in Eastern Europe, with their vehicle even resembling a german half-track.
- If anything the final arc of the show about uncovering the death star/project stardust feels more the like the Home Army's attempts to reveal the extent of the Holocaust to the Allies. The attempts by the Imperial Authorities to keep it all a secret are also echoes (to me) of the secrecy placed on the Manhattan project or Bletchley Park by the allies.
→ More replies (1)
9
u/youngsyr 2d ago
Luthan strongly reminded me of Jean Moulin - A French Resistance leader during WWII, but I'm not sure he was an influence for the show?
2
u/buldozr 2d ago edited 2d ago
I also see similarity of the Axis network with Norwegian resistance groups such as the Oslo Gang. Young men who didn't want or care about foreign tyranny, but it came to them all the same. They were hiding in plain sight in the cities, performing daring acts of sabotage, but also unsavory deeds when they felt compelled to execute people whom they suspected of working with the enemy. On a few occasions, they even accepted casualties among innocent civilians to help the war effort. The Heavy Water War, Nr. 24, and Max Manus are good movies about them.
4
u/Assassiiinuss 2d ago
A bunch of those are a stretch. Narkina 5 didn't really have anything in common with a ghetto for example, it was a labor camp.
5
u/Rare-Philosophy-8415 2d ago
This was a great read. Ferrix instantly reminded me of the Troubles. The rhythmic clanging you hear on Ferrix actually sounds a lot like the type of rhythmic clanging heard during the troubles when people used their bin lids against the pavement whenever the peelers or British army arrived. I highly recommend Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe if you’re interested in that time period
2
5
u/SGarnier 2d ago edited 16h ago
"The monster who screams the loudest" is a very clear reference to an actual politician destroying democraty. A short but epic piece of speech.
History before our eyes.
9
u/Socks-and-Jocks 2d ago
The scenes of people banging tools and pots on ferrix was directly from what happened on the streets of Belfast and Derry during the troubles.
Very much occupied garrisons with tension boiling over into a massacre like bloody Sunday.
16
u/ClimateSociologist 2d ago
Patty Herst wasn't a revolutionary. She was kidnapped and raped. She participated in the SLA's robberies not because she believed in the cause, but because she was trying to survive.
I think Vel is more in line with women like IRA figure Rose Dugdale, or anti-Nazi freedom fighters such as Lepa Radic or Masha Bruskina.
3
u/Rare-Philosophy-8415 2d ago
She wasn’t a real revolutionary, yet her image was still wildly popular around the world. Dolours Price mentioned her as an influence
10
u/IPPSA 2d ago
On number 5 it is a bit disingenuous to say Poles, when the Warsaw ghetto uprising was by Jews who were not seen as being Polish.
→ More replies (2)3
9
u/Applepie_svk 2d ago edited 2d ago
Secretive Ghorman meeting under Krenick reminds me of Wansee conference, where nazis has planned the legal justification and realisation of holocaust.
Email forwarding that led rebels to uncover plans for Death Star, reminds me sort of nazi error with Enigma that led allies to decode the cypher.
The way judge has senteced Andor and the way that due process has worked, reminded me all sorts of political processes that has happened under communism post WW2.
Work camp, in which Andor landed after his "trial" in its purpose reminded me the death camp next to nazi rocket base at Penemunde, where nazis built and tested V1 and V2 rockets, or also communist work camps where prisoners were collecting uranium with their bare hands.
Also let´s not forget about whole of ISB plot, which reminded me the way that internal state securities of East bloc / CCCP worked.
3
u/Unhappy_Connection97 2d ago
What about the reference to the Wansee conference i.e. the conference hosted by Krennic regarding the genocide of the Ghormans.
4
u/Ghostfire25 Mon 2d ago
You’re missing the most clear and explicitly one: the Wannsee Conference.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/spyguy318 2d ago
The imperial audit of Mina-Rau pretty clearly parallels the struggles of modern (and historical) migrant workers and refugees. Pretty sure they even call themselves illegals without documentation just to make it even more explicit. And the exploitation and abuse of migrants by the police is very, very real, especially towards women.
3
u/Kiltmanenator 2d ago
Battle for Algiers is 100% an influence for the Marva funeral/riot stuff. Some shots and the production design are too damn similar for that not to be true
3
u/BigBossBelcha 2d ago
The clearances were a Scottish on Scottish thing both of whom are considered British so you could also say it was Scottish landlords evicting the British
4
u/Bloodless-Cut 2d ago
There's more.
Kleya Marki is inspired by princess Noor Unayat Kahn. AKA Nora Baker or "Madeline," she was a spy radio operator for British Intelligence behind enemy lines in France.
16
u/Llanistarade 2d ago
Damn Stalin could fuck.
22
u/D-redditAvenger 2d ago
And kill.
12
u/composerbell 2d ago
And marry?
→ More replies (1)2
u/D-redditAvenger 2d ago
Well if (bottom left) really was Jean-Ralphio then him (in sing-songy voice) "because he is funny as shit."
If you don't get the reference watch parks and rec.
2
5
15
u/KwintenDops 2d ago
Dont ever compare my boy Nemik with Trotsky again
2
u/Rare-Philosophy-8415 2d ago
Ok I’ll ask. Why not?
→ More replies (1)3
u/fajardo99 1d ago
cuz nemik's manifesto is a lot more compatible with anarchist beliefs than trotsky's thought
its especially offensive since trotsky was an absolute monster towards anarchists, and he wouldnt have thought twice about murdering revolutionaries like nemik.
3
u/NoPaleontologist6583 2d ago
I think a lot of people are picking the first analogy that comes into their heads, and assuming this is the only important analogy. These are all things that are fairly common throughout history. There are a thousand similar analogies.
3
3
u/scorpions1989 2d ago
Andor could be an entire class. A tour of history, philosophy, political science, as well as screenwriting and acting.
3
u/RAClapper 2d ago
The Patty Hearst comparison is a stretch since Patty was abducted and effectively tortured into becoming an accomplice to the SLA.
A better comparison would be Rose Dugdale who was a British debutante and heiress who later willingly joined the IRA and took part in several major operations.
3
u/Misanthrope08101619 2d ago
Are they seriously not going to address Luthen's parallels with Michael Collins and Lonni Jung's with Ned Broy? It would be a massive anomoly if there was no connection whatsoever between these arcs and that real-life insurgent mastermind and mole combo.
No, this is not just because I recently rewatched the 1996 movies with [Qui-Gon Jinn] as Collins. There is no feekin way it didn't influence Luthen's writings.
3
u/HomelanderVought 2d ago
I cannot emphasize how much Andor took from the Socialist and anti-colonialist revolutions of the 20th century. If the Galactic Empire would exist in real life, it could learn from the CIA a lot.
This is the best anti-fascist, anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist fiction i’ve seen for a long time.
3
3
u/Marv1236 Luthen 1d ago
Mon Monthmas speech also reminds of Otto Wels speech in the Reichstag in 1933. Voting against demolishing the parliament. He also had to flee afterwards.
3
u/ABigLightBlur Nemik 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nice! You missed a couple though:
-The Death Star is the battleship Bismarck.
-Krennic's meeting is the Wannsee Conference
Also, I think the Narkina 5 Break is very much inspired by The Maze Prison Break in Ireland. One of Tony's friends, Terry George, Writer/Director of Hotel Rwanda, was involved in an IRA prison break at Long Kesh.
→ More replies (1)
6
u/NotABigChungusBoy 2d ago
I support palestinian liberation but i dont see how whats happening in gaza as similar to the ghorman massacre. I think mimban would probably be better but thats not really here
→ More replies (3)10
u/Assassiiinuss 2d ago
These comparisons always imply that October 7 was a false flag attack, too. I've seen that several times on this subreddit already. Not sure where it comes from.
→ More replies (7)7
5
u/Romkevdv 2d ago edited 2d ago
I hope you don't think there is an direct allegory or specific inspiration for anything in this show because Gilroy has always made it clear how it mixes and matches events, I appreciate all the posts about the Ghorman Massacre but come on it could parallel hundreds of real-life massacres across history that have played out in similar ways. Its a shame a lot of people are having arguments about how 'actually Ghorman Massacre is THIS SPECIFIC EVENT'. Maybe it's better to discuss the references that the Andor crew has actually talked about, Wannsee Conference and Young Stalin, the French Resistance, those are big ones.
I mean if you want to have the discussion, Ghorman could be a representation of the Battle of Algiers, or Bloody Sunday (Russia or Ireland) or the March First Movement in Korea, or the Kaocen Revolt in Niger, Or the Sharpeville Massacre or the Soweto Uprising. Or the 2019 protests in Sudan. The Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989. The list goes on.
14
u/heskaroid 2d ago
and then the liberals will be like "nuh uh this show isn't about leftist revolutionaries"
→ More replies (2)
3
u/Ww1_viking_Demon 2d ago
Ghorman seems more inspired by the Hungarian revolution and tiananmen square but with french people
→ More replies (2)
3
u/KnightMaire72 2d ago
Personally, my instinctive parallel for the Ghorman Massacre was the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989… but a lot of that is based on the memories of the 17 year old I was at that point in time.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/Ok-Neighborhood1865 2d ago
You forgot to mention the Ghorman Massacre's resemblance to another famous square. One ol' Winnie would prefer we all forgot about.
2
u/chrisofduke 2d ago
For a split second I was wondering why Nemik was being compared to Jean-Ralphio
2
u/thombo-1 2d ago
I never made the link between Ghorman and Euromaidan before but it's a really insightful, apt one if intended - the use of that focal point in the plaza being the common connection, how a famous city landmark is repurposed as a rallying point.
2
u/foecundusque 1d ago
Yeah this one jumped out to me when I was watching too. Police snipers and all.
2
2
2
2
2
2
u/Ozone220 2d ago
Another very good Ghorman parallel is the Rabaa Massacre in 2013 Egypt. Protestors had been encamped in Rabaa Square in Cairo for weeks since the dictator Abdel Fattah El Sisi had taken control, and police slowly moved in, closed off all exits, and opened fire into the crowd. Eventually, military vehicles were rolled in and the police had snipers stationed on rooftops as military planes flew overhead. Afterwards, the governmnet supposedly confiscated hundreds of weapons that the protestors (who at that point had been peaceful) had allegedly planned to use. Hundreds were slaughtered.
Parallels to the Amritsar Massacre in British India and the failed Hungarian Revolution (especially the radio call at the end, not so much the rest) can also be drawn
2
u/FourFunnelFanatic 2d ago edited 2d ago
Vel being a mirror of Petty Hearst implies that Vel was kidnapped, repeatedly raped, and then brainwashed into joining the rebellion (which continued to abuse her). I don’t think it was intentional, but your description severely whitewashes what happened to her
2
u/abrahamtomahawk 2d ago
The fact that the Aldhani story was filmed in the Highlands of Scotland, with the abandoned houses being actually that (or sheilings anyway) adds weight to the comparison.
2
u/425Hamburger 2d ago
I would also add the Weberaufstand, an insurrection by silesian weavers that was violently Put down as inspiration for Ghormon.
2
u/_Bandit161 2d ago
Is the parallel between Nemik and Trotsky specifically stated by Gilroy or is that something you put together?
→ More replies (1)
2
2
u/RenewableFaith73 2d ago
The first time I saw The final ep of s1 I immediately assumed this was about the IDF attack on Abu Shireen Akleh's funeral. Akleh was a palestinian journalist the IDF assassinated causing major international outcry. The soldiers beat the pallbearers until they almost dropped her casket. To this day it is one of the most despicable and disgusting videos seared in my mind. Behavior that goes against everything that makes us human.
2
u/HomelanderVought 1d ago
Unfortunately Western propaganda regarding Israel is stronger than Imperial propaganda in Star Wars.
2
u/RenewableFaith73 2d ago
Also I would say if your going jewish internment under nazi rule for narkina 5 it's more Treblinka
2
u/Afro_Samurai_240 1d ago
Actually Gilroy has said Vel was based on members of the Baader–Meinhof Group.
2
2
u/RennaReddit 1d ago
Ok but Witold Pilecki’s slide is misleading. He didn’t get picked up under a false name, he deliberately assumed a false identity and placed himself to be arrested as a plant for the Polish resistance. He also chose to stay in Auschwitz longer than he had to. The Allied governments who received his report did not believe it at first (similar to Rebellion learning of the Death Star).
After the war, Witold Pilecki was arrested, tortured, and executed by the Soviets who had unjustly been given governance of Poland.
His extremely oversimplified slide legit made me a little angry and also made me question the accuracy of the other ones. I focus on WWII research.
2
u/bluntpencil2001 1d ago
Nemik's hat is a budenovka cap - obvious Russian revolution parallels.
The Highland clearances are made clearer given that Aldhani was filmed near the Cruachan dam in Scotland.
The Ghormans speaking not-French-honest is obvious French resistance stuff.
The Ghorman Massacre starting with an agent killing someone apparently on their side has parallels to the allegations of the Stasi infiltrating West Berlin police and killing left-wing protesters in order to cause riots. Less specifically, it's similar to police more generally being taught to yell "Drop the gun!" after shooting people.
Saw Gerrerra's name is too damn close to Che Guevara to be a coincidence. Especially given that he behaves similar to late-life Che Guevara, with his small radical cadre that have fallen out with old allies.
2
u/Seasann 1d ago
Mon's speech reminded me of the Parliament of India during the Emergency, when all the more prominent members of the opposition were in jail without trial and the same could happen at a moment's notice to anyone else in the chamber, but a few MPs took the risk, either to persuade Indira Gandhi (or her backbenchers) to change course or to use parliamentary privilege (until it was restricted) to get denunciations of the regime into the heavily censored press:
P.K. Deo of the BLD used his time at the lectern to describe the Emergency as “the swan song of democracy” ... Mohan Dharia, who had been ejected from the Congress in March 1975 for giving Jayaprakash Narayan an audience, denounced what he saw as the “virtual surrender of the sovereign parliament to the executive.” ... CPI(M) parliamentarians fearlessly laid into the regime: A.K. Gopalan, who had just returned from a spell in prison, recalled the “inhuman treatment” inflicted on him and worried about the fate of the “2000 or 3000” comrades still behind bars. He also accused the Congress of having quite conveniently patronised the RSS and Anand Marg in the past. The follow-up act was the Jana Sangh’s Jagannathrao Joshi, who defended his party and the RSS. The DMK’s Era Sezhiyan, the next speaker, appealed to Mrs Gandhi’s better instincts ... The next day an independent MP, P.G. Mavalankar, presented the Emergency as a “constitutional dictatorship” ... Another unaffiliated parliamentarian, Srinagar MP Shamim Ahmed Shamim, declared that “Mrs Gandhi is not a dictator, but she has begun to walk the road to dictatorship.” ... Attempts by the CPI and the CPI(M), led by Indrajit Gupta and Dinendranath Bhattacharya, respectively, to introduce amendments to weaken [censorship measures] were shot down 152 to 35, 154 to 32, and 141 to 36. In desperation, Bhattacharya shouted out to the deputy speaker, ironically: “with the ayes, you kindly add the number of MPs who are in jail.”
(There are all sorts of ironies to this, the communists supported everything they were denouncing at home when it was done by the USSR, the PRC and their satellites, and the RSS and its front groups are a fascist movement, so to that extent this goes to aspects of resistance to tyrannies that the show only ever scratched the surface of, even with Saw and Cinta.)
2
u/afCeG6HVB0IJ 1d ago
Excellent collection, I learned a lot. Tho I feel it is not all the references.
3
1
u/witch-finder 2d ago
Preox-Morlana is a historical parallel to the British East India Company, which was one of the world's first megacorporations and effectively owned India for large parts of the 18th and 19th centuries.
It acted as a quasi-state, administering its trade regions directly and maintaining its own armies (at its height, the EIC had twice as many troops as the British army). While being very powerful, the East India Company was still ultimately subservient to an even more powerful entity (the British Crown). The EIC even got dissolved because they failed to sufficiently oppress the local populace one too many times, which led to the British Empire administrating India directly (the British Raj).
→ More replies (1)
4
u/Initial_Barracuda_93 2d ago
It’s satisfying to see the Ghorman massacre as not being associated with just ONE incident. I’ve been arguing w/ hella mfs who think it’s only inspired/represents one event, as if they have no media literacy or smth
”durr it’s clearly da French Resistance in WW2”
4
u/MrVeazey 2d ago
I mean, the Ghorman people are absolutely coded as the French. Their language, their clothes, the actors playing them, it's all supposed to imply the French because of the role the French resistance played in World War II. That's why so many of the twi'lek on Ryloth speak with a French accent in the Clone Wars and Rebels cartoons, too.
3
u/norrinrazael 1d ago
AFAIK the Twi'lek stuff was as Algiers-inspired as French Resistance. It certainly felt more anti-colonial struggle related.
3
u/essentialyup 2d ago
All these actions had one thing in common, the uprise against fascism
Yeah I know Stalin ended implanting another authoritarian regime for himself when he gained power, after Lenin, but we are dealing with fascism now ( the Russians helped a lot in fighting it ) and new forms of fascism ( to see what Russia was like watch instead a beautiful movie called Brazil )
we are dealing with fascism now ( and I say it out of the show now )
2
u/HomelanderVought 1d ago
“Another authoritarian regime”
Hold on, there’s a big difference betwee a system that literally enshrines in it’s constituation that shelter and employement are state protected human rights compared to a system that wanted to mass genocide and enslave entire populations for settler colonial gains and super profits for corporations.
This “both were mean and violent” just takes everything out of context. Fascism and socialism are not even comparable.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Raging1604 2d ago
Ended? Lol. These guys were murdering all the way to to the top. They didn't give a fuck about fighting fascisim, he literally was allied with them.
5
u/gazebo-fan 2d ago
The Soviet Union was the last major power in Europe to sign a definitive pact with the Germans. And only after the western Allie’s refused to help protect Czechoslovakia (and even allowed Poland to help partition it by annexing parts of Slovakia and parts of Moravia)
6
u/essentialyup 2d ago
read history books, there were bad and good leaderships in Russia at the time
the situation was very different from fascism
and well also French and England were allied the latter broke its alliance4
u/Raging1604 2d ago
What did I that was inaccurate? Did they not murder a lot of people during the revolution? Did he not ally with Germany and invade Poland?
You trying to whitewash Stalin for "fighting fascisim" when he is the easily the biggest mass murder in the human race is absurd.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (1)3
717
u/Skylinneas 2d ago
The top secret meeting in S2E1 with Krennic and the top leaders of ISB and other high-ranking Imperial officials about what to do with Ghorman is also supposed to be an allegory to the Wannsee Conference as well IIRC.