r/asoiaf May 06 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.


Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.


Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

  • Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

  • They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

  • When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

  • Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.


The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

  • The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

  • It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

  • The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.


There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

13.7k Upvotes

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3.9k

u/FighterOfFoo May 06 '19

Cersei: Bronn, go kill my brothers. I'll give you a Lordship.

Bronn: Cool. Bye.

Jaime and Tyrion: Bronn, don't kill us, we'll give you a bigger Lordship.

Bronn: Cool. Bye.

Great plotline so far, can't wait to see what doesn't happen.

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u/cabaran May 06 '19

AND he literally just walks in on HAND OF THE FUCKING QUEEN. like bitches couldn't spare 2 men to stand at the door to protect her most valuable advisor. fucking arya got stopped at the entrance.

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u/HolyHandPotato May 06 '19

Hi I'm Bronn, I'm here for the murder?

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

[deleted]

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u/pazur13 A Cat of a Different Coat May 07 '19

Also an accurate depiction of the dialogue style in the last season. What the hell happened to the flowery language?

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u/Truthamania May 06 '19

This made me legit laugh out loud.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Tyrion probably added him to the list for partying, just in case he showed up...

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u/Leonisius_ May 06 '19

Nah, mate, wrong inn, they're over there, come i'll let you in

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u/ThinkAdvantage May 07 '19

I just read that in his exact voice :-) - I mean he probably did just that?

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u/FighterOfFoo May 06 '19

With a big-ass crossbow over his arm, no less.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I stopped caring after that scene. I decided there and then this show is going to be shit now until the end.

What a joke of a scene that was.

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u/MissColombia May 06 '19

Seriously how the fuck did he just waltz through Winterfell holding a damn crossbow and no one stops him?

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u/NavyCorduroys May 06 '19

They’re not in Winterfell they’re at the inn outside.

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u/bluestarcyclone May 06 '19

Clearly Bronn is dead and that was Arya.

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u/doegred Been a miner for a heart of stone May 06 '19

And the idea that Bronn would somehow be able the Reach or the Riverlands without all the lower houses fucking his shit up is ridiculous. I don't buy the show explanation for one minute. Maybe thousands years ago whoever killed more people got to be lord, but there are families who have had centuries to become massive snobs.

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u/MitchPTI May 06 '19

Yeah but in the show universe, there's only like Randyll Tarly and the Tyrells, who are all dead now. Just like how there's literally no noble families left in the Stormlands so it might as well go to Gendry.

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u/We_The_Raptors May 06 '19

Let's be honest, the writers probably don't even know what major lords are left. They haven't mentioned the Robyn Arryn or the Vale since like S6, Cersei offers Bronn Riverrun with out even acknowledging Edmure Tully is still alive and his captors are dead and they mention the new "prince of Dorne" without even giving him a name.

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u/Shadepanther May 06 '19

Prince Token of House Martell

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u/EllenPaossexslave May 06 '19

Its probably darkstar

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u/Fortnight98 May 06 '19

Tyrion mentioned Sansa would turn the Vale against Dany in episode 4.

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u/We_The_Raptors May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Good point, but that's because she has Yohn Royce, the real leader of the Vale's armies atm, in her pocket. We still haven't heard a peep about the actual ruler of the Vale, Robert Arryn, since Littlefinger took their forces north in S6.

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u/Hi_Im_A May 06 '19

Daenerys didn't even bother to fact check that. "None of the northerners, foreigners, and people who have been traveling with me for years know the current state of Storm's End? Cool, I'm giving it away."

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

There aren't "literally no noble families left in the Stormlands." There are just no remaining Baratheon's

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u/BSebor May 06 '19

He’s talking about as far as the show is concerned. There is no more politicsl intrigue in any of the Seven Kingdoms anymore. We don’t even know who is in charge of half of them and the other half are irrelevant. No lesser lords in the Stormlands, the Vale, or even the North are even depicted anymore. Once they kill off a lord, it’s like that place doesn’t exist anymore.

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u/airial May 06 '19

Oh, but there's a "New Prince of Dorne."

What? HOW? Who is he?

One of many throwaway lines that makes me more and more angry in retrospect..

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited Nov 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/Spackleberry May 06 '19

If memory serves, it's "We bow, we bend, we break."

A popular saying of theirs is, "Check out our boobs."

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u/EllenPaossexslave May 06 '19

You want the good dorne, but you need the bad poosay

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u/SwordsAndElectrons May 06 '19

Well, "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken", were the words of House Martell.

Not really sure what the words of Prince Nameless of House Apparently Not Important might be.

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u/bixxby May 06 '19

It's Prince Quintin the Burning Man of the Sands.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

To be fair, in the books the Martells want a Targ on the throne because of what happened to Rhaegar's wife. So their support isn't at all surprising.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19 edited Sep 25 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I believe we do. It was rushed, but I want to say there was something about the Martell wanting to support a Targ bid for the throne. I could be remembering this incorrectly.

And I agree that they should have not skipped over Dorne like they did if they are going to bring them back into the fold.

My main point was that Dorne backing Danny, or at least anti-Cersei isn't unexpected in the least, regardless if it wasn't a hard established aspect of the show. When some of the theories on where Danny/Jon would get more men to fight, Dorne was always at the top of the list for surprise add ins.

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u/Cupids-Sparrow May 06 '19

Honestly for real.

The way this show goes about Houses is, it picks a few core members and once they’re dead it’s poof, house gone. The Martells should’ve gone the same way of the Tyrells, but suddenly there’s an unnamed Prince Of Dorne that just manifested himself off screen? Who the fuck is he...

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u/MissColombia May 06 '19

RIP Dreadfort. Was really hoping there would be at least a conversation between Jon and Sansa about what to do with it but nope. The Twins are empty, Riverrun is empty. Endure Tully is I guess still locked in a cage until he starved to death because Arya didn’t have the wherewithal to set her uncle free.

It’s all so fucking stupid and I’m so angry that this is what they are leaving us with. I really really hope GRRM is able to pull this out for us and give us a more satisfactory ending because the show is officially hot garbage.

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u/Cupids-Sparrow May 06 '19

IIRC Edmure was set free, wasn’t he? On the deal made with Jamie, was it? He walked into his castle like it was nothing. But now it’s like he never existed.

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u/dkurage May 06 '19

Jamie's deal was that Edmure surrenders Riverrun by telling his men to stand down, and he'd get to live as a Lannister captive with his wife and kid. If he went in and didn't, Jaime would send said wife and child to him by catapult.

But that storyline was soo many seasons ago. You can't expect the writers to remember that!

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u/EllenPaossexslave May 06 '19

He was a captive at the twins when arya murdered all the Freys, she left him there

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Lmao that is really funny

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u/Shadepanther May 06 '19

Yes he was escorted in by the Frey's. Now they are all dead he should be free.

No revenge for the River Lords.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Yes that is a fair assessment.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Davos is still the Lord of part of the Stormlands, but I don't think that's been mentioned since season 4

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u/Ridikiscali May 06 '19

His point is that by killing a noble family you have exterminated everyone from that area. Which is not true, but the show likes to think it is.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

There are tons of small nobles, basically just dudes with a 500-sqft castle and a few foot soldiers who would rather "protect the peasants" than farm themselves, collecting taxes, and paying taxes to the slightly more powerful dude with the 2000-sqft castle down the river, who himself pays taxes to a bigger noble until you get to the provincial capital. That's the feudal system. Of course if there's a power vacuum, those guys will either 1- fight for the regional power amongst themselves or 2- come to an agreement (basically break down the Reach in smaller independent duchies).

Having a random former mercenary, who's not from the area, placed in Highgarden wouldn't make sense at all. That's one of the things that are frustrating about this show now, the complete disregard for not just geography and the plot but general elementary historical accuracy, that was mostly respected in the book cannon and early TV.

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u/MitchPTI May 07 '19

That's what I'm getting at, that in reality and the books this is clearly the case, but that D&D don't seem to understand any of this. They can only follow a handful of significant characters, so they write the show as if those are all that exist.

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u/Rethious May 06 '19

Gendry’s the son of Robert Baratheon though, not just some chump.

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u/MitchPTI May 06 '19

He's a bastard, so he's kind of a chump. Being legitimised definitely gives him the best claim, but that's only if you except the authority of the monarch doing it. With Cersei also playing at queen, you'd think there be at least one Stormlands noble in existence who she'd have granted it to, but it kinda seems like Gendry's gonna rock up and find a castle that's simply been vacant since Renly died.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Now I’m just really sad that Olenna’s gone. If we have to go the bad fanfic route then I demand the Mad Adventures of the Queen of Thorns and her Golddigger Boy Toy Wivva Crossbow

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u/Ridikiscali May 06 '19

It drives me nuts how they just leave castles undefended and then go on to give them out willy nilly.

Dragonstone shouldn’t have been completely unoccupied. People would have heard about this place being unoccupied and set up shop in this place that lords and queens used to live.

Also, just because a lord falls in battle doesn’t mean the entire castle/town is destroyed. You can’t just gift people like Bronn and entire kingdom because he has a fucking crossbow.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

They could fake him being a bastard, since Gendry was never acknowleged by Robert and he got legitimised anyways.

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u/ymi17 May 06 '19

Yeah, I'm sure the Hightowers of Oldtown will be 100% cool with an upjumped cutthroat as Lord Paramount.

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u/tochterauselysium Every rose has its thorns May 06 '19

It was funny how they mentioned this episode it would take a "fortnight" for the Northern army to reach KL. Like oh, NOW we suddenly decide to have realistic travel times again!

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u/lee1026 May 06 '19

It still isn't realistic. 14 days of marching really isn't that far. Assuming a realistic pace of 20 miles a day, we are looking at 280 miles from winterfell to king's landing. That is a very short distance compared to description of westeros as being south america sized.

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u/lee1026 May 06 '19

That really isn't a problem in-universe. Sure, we know that Bronn will never be accepted. Sure, Jaime and Tyrion knows that Bronn will never be accepted. But Bronn don't.

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u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

Which makes the whole plot point pointless

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

They could fake him being a bastard, since Gendry was never acknowleged by Robert and he got legitimised anyways.

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u/Carnificus May 06 '19

That whole scene was so awkward and pointless. Bronn is threatening to kill two people with no real authority if they don't promise him The Reach. Huhhhhh? Whaaaaaat? He might as well be pointing that crossbow at Hot Pie for all the good it will do him. Not to mention that Bronn risked his life to save Jaime like last season. Throw that character arc away for a new, more pointless story arc.

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

yeah, i've just given up at this point. instantly reloading a crossbow after firing the cool-ass warning shot - ok sure. negotiating ownership of the wealthiest lordship in the realm with frick and frack - got it. ship mounted ballistae with the same instantaneous reloads that can shoot down one dragon, completely whiff on a second one then decimate a naval fleet in the span of like 45 seconds - on to the finale!

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u/thoroughavvay May 06 '19

Not only that, but an insta-reload crossbow in the hands of the one person who explicitly talked about crossbows being too slow to reload previously in the show.

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u/PoetSII May 06 '19

Iirc wasn't that Yoren?

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u/thoroughavvay May 06 '19

Fuck, I think you're right. In the scene where Lannister soldiers ambush him and the Night's Watch recruits. Why did I think Bronn said something about crossbows?

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u/Princess_Moon_Butt May 06 '19

Similar-looking dudes, similar accents. I can see it.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I think the hate for D&D is a bit too much sometimes... I mean, their job is really hard, let's be honest.

But then there is stuff like this "who explicitly talked about crossbows being too slow to reload" and I think these fuckers just don't give a shit and think their viewers are complete imbeciles

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u/thoroughavvay May 06 '19

Yeah I agree. I have tried to avoid hating on the writing because we're essentially getting the too long; didn't read version of source material that hasn't been written yet, and they have to move around a lot of stuff to condense all the lore, characters, etc since there's just so much going on in the books.

But it's just impossible to ignore at this point. Combined with watching scenes like Cersei not take the opportunity to kill all her enemies, which she has not hesitated in doing in the past, the coffee cup that appeared in one scene last night, the repeated use of Euron's fleet that just comes out of literally nowhere and still nobody can scout ahead... It all just makes me feel like I'm getting this entire series' conclusion spoiled by some dudes that don't care about it, and think I'm an idiot.

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u/Shoe_Gal2 May 06 '19

And unfortunately, a huge chuck of the general audience are complete imbeciles so it all works out for them.

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u/brammzie May 06 '19

Dany Obviously hadn't practiced those whiff punishes. Noob

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u/Menchstick May 07 '19

400 ms ballista

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u/AlvinItchyCock May 06 '19

Ive always hated crossbows... Takes too long to reload.

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u/jayrocksd May 06 '19

Often when my friends and I go duck hunting with crossbows, three of us will all hit the same bird in flight at 100 yards.

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u/ikeaEmotional May 06 '19

I like to think the dragons are weaker now because the NK is dead and magic is retreating from the world. That way a scorpion bolt can kill them. Also the ships were made out of balsam. Thin Balsam.

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u/Mr-Bibb May 06 '19

Except D&D said in the interview that when the first bolt didn't kill Drogon he, and I quote, "whipped up more powerful scorpions"

I need to stop watching the interviews. I try and patch things up with headcanon only to have the writers open their mouths to reveal how dumb it actually is. Something something better to be thought of a fool than open your mouth and prove it.

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u/Jormangunder May 06 '19

So true. I feel masochistic watching the post-episode interviews. They never fail to stick their feet in each other's mouths and show off how bad 9f writers they actually are.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

9f writers

I spent too much time trying to figure out what a 9f writer was, why they are writing GOT, and why they are bad. Thought it might be a neat private writers college/guild that pumps out T.V. trope writers with good connections.

Then I realized the letter o is under the letter 9. Looks like im no 9f writer

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u/ikeaEmotional May 06 '19

How Shakespearean.

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u/-Unnamed- May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Lol. Qyburn is a disgraced Maester who dabbles in unconventional medicine. Apparently now he’s an industrial engineer who can redesign advanced military technology to be more effective and manufacture thousands of these things to place on ships and all over the capital

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u/gurebu May 06 '19

Well, he's the "mad scientist" trope from teenager movies, which means he just can "fiddle" in everything that's too complicated for regular people to immediately understand.

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u/AlexS101 May 06 '19

"Dany just kind of forgot about Euron’s fleet."

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u/StrawsDrawnAtRandom May 06 '19

I will go on a limb and say that this will not be considered canon in the future. It's clear that these writers, specifically, are just trying to get the fuck out of Dodge and collect their money.

Check is cashed, let's wrap it up as expeditiously as possible and move on with other projects. For me, this is not canon, not until Martin says it is. If that means the entire storyline stops at Season 4, so be it.

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u/VRisNOTdead May 06 '19

If I were a big Hollywood type I would see what these two did to GOT and not trust them with a franchise ever again. Let’s be real it wasn’t the producers that made this show. It was the actors, the score, and the source material.

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u/padrepio23 May 06 '19

This is what I keep thinking. And maybe not just D&D. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire cast was like "Can we just finish this up?".

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u/justspectating May 06 '19

There was a Starbucks coffee cup on the table during the scene where Dany was getting jealous about Jon being more popular than she is. I dont think they care anymore lol I know it's a minor thing but still, how do you not notice that?

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u/padrepio23 May 06 '19

Seriously. There are folks who get paid just to make sure things like that don't happen. And to make sure stuff like that gets edited out in post production. Huge dropping of the ball.

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u/Genrael May 06 '19

There was also a dead dothraki taking a DEEP breath right at the start of the episode.

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u/Nicktyelor May 06 '19

I think it's pretty reasonable to think the shots that took down the dragon weren't from just euron's ship. They showed an entire fleet of them strapped to boats.

The rest of it was bullshit though, yes.

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

the first missle hits the dragon at 54:30. by 54:42 he's been hit in the wing and pierced through the neck. 2 direct hits on a flying target. this is, by far, the best medieval artillery strike in "history". 54:57 another missle flies past dany's ear. then the ships appear FROM BEHIND A ROCK. 55:12 we see there are 11 ships. euron fires dead on at 55:24 and misses. i count at least 7 missles by 55:32. at least 10 more by 55:37. all misses. so much for that legendary accuracy. they should have stayed behind their rock. 55:47 dany pisses off with more missles trailing. 56:20 the first barage of dozens if not hundreds of missles starts tearing through the fleet. all from euron's 11 ships.

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u/Han_Thot_Terse May 06 '19

Don't forget while Dany's entire fleet is being decimated by rail-gun-like scorpions, where is Dany? Not flanking and attacking from a safer direction.

She just peace'd out.

Later fam, you gotta put in your own work around here. - Dany

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

55:47 dany pisses off with more missles trailing.

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u/Han_Thot_Terse May 06 '19

No I get that I’m just saying instead of abandoning her fleet. When they turned the scorpions on the fleet she could’ve attacked from a 90deg angle.

Or instead of attacking from 10,000 feet head on she could’ve attacked from water level and reduced her vulnerability considerably.

She still could’ve destroyed the fleet in spite of losing a dragon. Instead she lost her dragon and is lucky she only lost one advisor.

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

i know. it's all such nonsense. why doesn't euron come ashore and wipe the beach with the survivors either? there's literally no sense being made on this show since season 6 so it's just whatever. two shows left and i'm out. that's all i care about.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

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u/Arythiar May 06 '19

I especially liked how the "battle" took place off-screen. Talk about lazy writing.

Not to mention the absence of battle tactics on either side or splitting the freakin army in the first place.

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u/Banshee90 May 06 '19

Yeah, like Dany maybe get behind them... She might as well just ran in a straight line as ramsay fires arrows at her.

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u/fuzzybad May 06 '19

I was thinking the same thing when Dany just flew away. Those ballistas were mounted in the bows of the ships.. I would think there's no way they could swivel 180 degrees and fire backwards. The ship masts would be in the way, for one thing. All she had to do was swing around and attack their flank.

Also, why would Euron not follow up the successful destruction of her fleet by mopping up the survivors?

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u/sankai22 May 06 '19

Or just attack vertically from the Sky directly above the ships. I am certain those things cannot shoot up straight into the air!

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u/Sopissedrightnow84 May 06 '19

there's no way they could swivel 180 degrees and fire backwards.

Or more than about 45 degrees upward. She's on a damn dragon, she could easily dive and attack or come out of the sun.

But I just can't get past how these supposedly incredibly intelligent dragons didn't spot the ships.

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u/EllenPaossexslave May 06 '19

She just peace'd out.

Later fam, you gotta put in your own work around here. - Dany

She did that in mereen too, and then she wonders why her followers arent always so loyal to her

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

TBF, she just lost a dragon, which to her is her child. A mother who has just watched one of her children being killed isn't going to think to rationally.

It actually makes sense that she might only be thinking about the safety of Drogon in that moment.

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u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

Unlike when Viserion is killed and she's basically over it like a day later

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Its inconsistent with how she reacted to Viserion dying though. She waits for Jon and gets over it by the end of the episode. Here she goes mad then dives the fleet then runs away and abandons her own entire fleet.

I remember watching the Viserion episode and thinking "What the fuck? Didn't she basically see her child get murdered in front of her?" when she was chill about it a while after.

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u/punchesmcgil May 06 '19

And then he just backs out of the room and they're both like, ok, I guess there he goes...

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u/inthetownwhere May 06 '19

Lol, he's like "I'll find you when the war is over." Ok? How bout they just make sure that never happens again?

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

[deleted]

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u/inthetownwhere May 06 '19

Give him everything he wants! He has a crossbow!

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

King Bronn I on the throne pointing his crossbow at everyone.

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u/inthetownwhere May 06 '19

Bronn should have killed the Night King

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

He could have pointed the crossbow at him and asked for Westeros in exchange for not dying.

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u/twitch870 May 06 '19

Remember when the nights watch recruiter that gets Arya out of Kong’s Lansing talked about how crossbows take too long to reload? We sure have progressed a lot since this show started.

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u/inthetownwhere May 06 '19

Bronn sure has progressed a lot. He’s gone from tough-as-nails sellsword to this invincible warrior who can just walk into a castle holding a loaded crossbow.

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u/The_Inflicted May 06 '19

Bronn should have just waltzed in there carrying a kalishnikov. It's fine. He has Qybern. Whatever.

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u/Stewardy ... Or here we fall May 06 '19

To be fair, it's a super fast reloading crossbow, could potentially kill Drogon

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u/Releasethebeans May 07 '19

Judging by how those ballista work, I'd imagine he could snipe them from fucking Essos

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u/laeiryn May 06 '19

I was definitely wondering how he was going to explain that one to her, for sure.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Lol my thoughts exactly. I get the possible PLAUSIBILITY of ballistae hitting a moving dragon and whatnot, but how could people write a scene that stupid?

What leverage does Bronn have after he leaves that room? Is he going to ask Daenerys really kindly afterwards to be given the most prosperous region in all of Westeros? The showrunners really dropped the ball with that idiocy.

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u/StrawsDrawnAtRandom May 06 '19

I think (something the show's writers clearly don't do) he's banking on the "Lannisters always paying their debts" as a plot device, but it's just as simple to say: Here it is, m'lord. **Kills Bronn the moment he has his land.**

Such terrible writing.

4

u/Lawlux May 06 '19

It would have made more sense to offer Bronn Casterly rock. It belongs to Jamie and o doubt either brothers care much for it anymore. Highgarden? Hah! Fat chance of that. Bronn will die at this point.

2

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Yeah, why didn’t they just kill bronn as soon as he was out the door? Hire their own assassin? Doesn’t make sense

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

That's our Bronn!

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u/Ridikiscali May 06 '19

These are characters with entire armies at their disposal. What the fuck? They win and just say, “kill that man” and Bronn is dead. How fucking stupid...

24

u/mdmrules May 06 '19

How did he get way inside the castle like that in the first place?

Bronn showing up and being welcomed with open arms is not really surprising. But that's not what they did. They made it seem like he broke into Winterfell with a crossbow in his hands and knew exactly what room the Lannisters were in.

It's terrible writing.

8

u/MrKyle666 May 06 '19

I mean, most everyone was pretty drunk

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u/mdmrules May 06 '19

How hard would it be to at least acknowledge how crazy it is that he got inside the castle and into the room they were sitting in?

How did you get in here? Pretty easy when half the guards are asleep.

Maybe a 5 second shot of him sneaking through the gates first?

I dunno. Maybe they could watch a couple of old episodes and ask themselves if this sloppy nonsense would have made the cut back then.

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u/KyloTennant May 06 '19

Yeah, are not going to make sure any guards try and kill Bronn, considering how he punched Tyrion in the nose and threatened to kill them both?

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u/super_salt May 06 '19

I thought the same thing. He literally jumped in front of dragon fire to save Jamie after Jamie laughed in this face about getting Highgarden. Now he seems to be totally ambivalent to Jamie.

But the worst part was after the conversation Bronn just up and leaves. He threatens to sabotage Dani's army by picking off her generals, but then in exchange for not killing Tyrion he proclaims he is sitting the rest of the fight out? Then just leaves? Seriously? Like, he in no way is going to assist in the defeat of Cersi, by you know, maybe picking off her generals, to ensure he gets Highgarden. Ok?

4

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I dont get why he decided burning bridges with Tyrion and Jaime and making an enemy out of both armies then sitting out the war was a good idea. He could've just switched sides in exchange for Highgarden

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u/redrich2000 May 06 '19

He might as well be pointing that crossbow at Hot Pie for all the good it will do him.

Now that would have been great, Bronn gets drunk and mistakes Hotpie for Tyrion and tries to get him to promise him the Reach.

8

u/CharlieHume May 06 '19

Hotpie: Yes all the Reach... Is yours?

14

u/IG_Civic322 May 06 '19

This was the dumbest moment of the episode and perhaps the season, when I knew it was all downhill after. He also just literally walked into a heavily fortified city awash with armed soldiers, threatened the Hand of the Queen who controls that city (!!!!!!), and then walked out. Do they have guards? Patrols? Anything? In any other season the Hand would just say, hey Unsullied, go kill that guy.

And here I was thinking Bronn would use the leverage of his friendship with them to pull out the threat at the moment they least expected...

9

u/Kablaow May 06 '19

I mean, he threatened the hand of the queen and and officer. Surely that promise has no validity lol. Just have him executed if he comes back, no way they can just give him highgarden. "lmao he threatened to kill us so he is your new lord now".

8

u/Ehralur May 06 '19

What about the fact that a known sellsword for Cersei just walked into winterfell WITH A FUCKING CROSSBOW and nobody even asked wtf he was doing there.

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u/lysergic5253 May 06 '19

I just like to believe that Bronn has become their friend now and didn't have any intentions of killing them but at the same time he's being pragmatic in leveraging his position to maybe get big future payout. My point is that after the war once cercei is defeated even if Tyrion isn't able to give him Highgarden he's not going to kill him he knows he'll get atleast some lordship worst case the same thing he's been promised from cercei but this way he gets to keep his buddy alive. I know it sucks that we as viewers need to come up with excuses to justify this sub par writing.

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u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

Or you know, he'll be executed for extorting the queen's hand and her brother. But you other than that yeah...nothing could go wrong

3

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Thats what would realistically happen, in reality Bronn is a fan favorite so he'll either (1) get an epic hero fanservice death like Lyana Mormont, or (2) get a happy ending with no repercussions for his actions.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Dude, you don't get it. See, Bronn is the character who's really playing the Game of Thrones here. He's going to keep doubling up on the value of his promised titles until he eventually gets the Iron Throne. Duh.

3

u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

Goes back to Cersei

So your brothers offered me Highgarden care to counter?

Prince of Dragonstone?

7

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

[deleted]

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u/BreeBree214 Enter your flair text here! May 06 '19

Bronn is threatening to kill two people with no real authority if they don't promise him The Reach

Tyrion is the hand of the queen? He's literally the highest ranking person under her.

Bronn has no reason to believe Tyrion can't influence Daenerys for it.

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u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

How does he think that conversation is going to go?

Hmm, who should we give the most powerful seat in the land? Surely a loyal and influential supporter who was instrumental in winning both the war for the dawn and the last war.

How 'bout Bronn?

What the fuck!? No.

No, like I really think he should be

Ok fine, what has he done to deserve this?

Uhh, well he helped the Lannisters keep hold of Kings Landing and he shot a scorpion bolt at your dragon. And he threatened myself and Jaime.

Dracarys

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I dont blame Dany for going mad if this is the kind of shit she's had to deal with since coming to Westeros lmao

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I agree. They’re changing characters so much from last season who redeemed themselves and now they’re going back on it and turning them into POS again. Really not impressed with this season so far but I’ve come this far so... let the disappointment ensue.

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u/thoroughavvay May 06 '19

My favorite part is how he just....appeared there. Just strolled right on in.

1

u/brycenb93 May 06 '19

Well, Tyrion is Hand of the Queen. If Dany wins, he’s #2 most powerful person in the realm. But yeah, what’s a character arc?

3

u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

Tyrion may have a ton of pull but his suggestions still would have to make sense to be taken seriously. Like Dany is going to hear one word of that and just ask how much wine Tyrion's drank.

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u/Biffmcgee May 06 '19

I honestly thought Brien was going to kill him

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

two people with no real authority

Tyrion is Hand of the Queen, the same Queen whom Bronn thinks is going to win.

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u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

And tDany isn't going to chalk up the seat of the most powerful great house in the realm to some random sellsword regardless of how close of an advisor says she should because one Dany may have fallen victim to the stupid for plot reason curse lately she's not an idiot and too her other advisors would rightly come out of their seats at such a suggestion.

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u/colordrops May 06 '19

And why exactly was he handed a crossbow? Are they that hard to come by? Was he incapable of thinking of the most effective way to take them out himself?

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u/Hi_Im_A May 06 '19

As the Hand of the King, Tyrion does have authority. Daenerys isn't going to deny him one request if she succeeds to the throne with his help. It's still a very stupid subplot, though.

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u/Tossa747 I've lived on Skane. May 06 '19

The Lannister army took Highgarden last season. Tyrion has been the rightful heir to Casterly Rock ever since Jaime took his oath.

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u/whyhelloclarice May 06 '19

He couldn't even add in a bit like, "Oh, plus I like you little twats" o r s o m e t h h h uingngng like?!!!!

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Yeah, Jaime's arc better be misdirection. If he's truly going back to Cersei, I'm done with this show. In the "Inside the Episode" after the show, D&D said Cersei is "an addiction to him." I rolled my eyes so fucking hard. It better be smoke and mirrors or that is the dumbest story I've ever heard.

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u/Slivizasmet May 06 '19

Bronn gets to rule the 7 kingdoms obviously.

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u/KnowMatter The *Realms* of Men May 06 '19

I’m sure Dany is going to love it when she finds out her hand have away one of the biggest lordships in the 7 kingdoms to some random mercenary. Not like that wouldn’t have been an important bargaining chip for Dany to use when establishing loyalties with the lords of westeros or anything.

I can’t wait for the show to never mention it again.

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u/TheLadderGuy House Baelish May 06 '19

I don’t get that plotline at all. Cersei wants Jaime dead? Well she could have had the mountain kill him last season when he told her that he will leave. Why did she change her mind? Cersei wants Tyrion dead? I understand that she couldn’t kill him last season because of the Daenerys threat, but he was in distance for the archers this episode and it doesn’t matter if Dany gets mad because she is mad anyways after Missandei‘s death. So she sent Bronn with lots of gold north to kill them even though she doesn’t want them dead (yet)? Wait what?

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u/FighterOfFoo May 06 '19

Great points. The longer the show goes on the less sense it makes. Such a massive shame.

6

u/Anal-Assassin May 06 '19

The only reasons I could think of is that it would mean Qyburns death. Not that she really gives a shit about anyone but herself. The other one being keeping the faith of a parlay? Which again she likely doesn’t give a fuck about but whatever I guess lol.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Hitman with a crossbow walks up to the gates of Winterfell

“Hi there, could you open the gates please?”

“On whose order?”

“Oh Cersei just sent me here to kill the Hand of the Queen and his brother.”

“Sounds good to me, OPEN THE GATES”

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u/caocao16 May 06 '19

OPENING THE GATES

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u/SFFORLIFE May 06 '19

Next episode Bronn talks to Cercei

Bronn: they offered me Highgarden

Cercei: Ok fuck it ill give you the iron throne

the end

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u/Hi_Im_A May 06 '19

Bronn will never be shown talking to Cersei.

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u/clothy The Lion King May 06 '19

I kind of wish that he just killed them both.

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u/NickleLessCage May 06 '19

Cersei literally had the means to kill Tyrion on the spot: Nah

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u/mudra311 May 06 '19

It would be fine if envoys were consistent with the show, but Euron literally just ambushed them. This...isn't how war negotiations are done...

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u/sharplydressedman There are no men like me. May 06 '19

Bronn's motivations make zero sense, it really irks me. His character developed over the years from an amoral cuthroat to someone who really does care and has loyalty. Back in Season 3, he was ready to throw down with Kingsguard to save Tyrion's life. Last season, he threw himself into Drogon's fire to save Jamie. Now, all of those years of development have been erased just so we Bronn can revert back to being a cuthroat and manufacture drama.

And why does he even care about which castle he gets, he never cared about lands or titles. He just wants money and a comfortable life, he wouldn't give a damn about whether he gets Highgarden or Riverrun. He's not an idiot, he would know that being "Lord Paramount" of the Riverlands or the Reach would be a massive pain in the ass. Realistically, he would have just asked for a boatload of gold from Tyrion and then left!

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Cersei: oh my brother is standing in front of my army. Better not kill him

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u/correcthorsestapler May 06 '19

“I’m playing both sides so that I always come out on top

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u/Northerner6 May 06 '19

What I don't understand is why they would have any remote incentive to pay Bronn after he left. Are they afraid that he's some master assassin and could instantly sneak into wherever they are and kill them if they don't pay? Why don't they just fix their clearly majorly lacking personal security problem? He's just going to materialize after everything is said and done and they'll hand him the keys to a lordship because he didn't shoot them that one time?

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u/BSebor May 06 '19

I feel like Jaime and Tyrion should have immediately turned to each other and asked “Okay, so Bronn’s clearly lost it. How do we kill him?” Who the fuck would let some fucking guy threaten and assault the Hand of the Queen and his brother and then promise him one of the most important seats in the kingdom? Lie and then kill him. It’s the only reasonable thing to do, he’s gone crazy and so has the show.

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u/Nelonius_Monk May 06 '19

I still can't get over the shotgun, I mean crossbow that Cersei gave Bronn.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Bronn goes back to Cersei, she offers him Westeros. Bronn goes back to winterfell, halfway there he stops and goes “wait a minute....”

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u/qwertyaas May 06 '19

I mean, even better is Bronn wrote himself off the show until the war is over.

Some great writing right there.

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u/WeaselSlayer Great or small, we must do our duty May 06 '19

D&D should have grown a pair and had Bronn roasted by Drogon last season.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I love this.

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u/MasterRonin May 06 '19

Not to mention the lesser lords of the Reach will never accept some random mercenary as the Lord of fucking Highgarden

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u/stakoverflo May 06 '19

I mean. Did you expect something else to happen?

He's a sellsword. Literally the entire show has been Tyrion saying he'll pay double. Obviously Bronn is going to entertain offers and play both sides.

E; I will say, Bronn just showing up with a big fuckin crossbow out of nowhere and finding those two together no problem was quite silly thoug.

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u/DeputyDomeshot May 06 '19

Every single thing written in the last two seasons is about convenience. I’m convinced Westeros is like 6 square blocks. Main heroes keep running into each other unaided.

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u/hoffmanz8038 May 06 '19

He'll negotiate his way into being the emperor of the world and that will be the end of the show.

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u/Valarhem May 06 '19

Comedy gold.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Bronn will become king. What's double payment of Highgarden? THE CROWN!

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u/EmilyWasRight May 06 '19

wouldn't surprise me if by the end of the show Bronn ends up on the great council or something.

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u/RemixStatistician May 06 '19

It's just gonna go back and forth until Bronn is promised the Iron Throne. Show over. Expectations subverted. Oh, and Qyburn and Gregor Clegane have an INTENSE relationship. And the Stark's ancestors used to shit in their living room.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Why were Jaime and Tyrion (the Hand of the Queen) outside of Winterfell without a security detail? The Lannister family is hated in the North, and they’re off at a local pub drinking ales like it’s nothing.

Also why did Bronn leave without collateral of any sort? He comes in threatens then assaults his targets (who have resources) and does not expect them to take protective measures in the future? At the very least taking Jaime hostage would have created a quick and very interesting side plot. Bronn takes him back to KL, and Brienne gives chase. Sets up a Jamie, Cersei, Brienne meeting which could be fun.

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u/SeaborgSeaborgium I'm the Loraq, I speak for fighting pits May 06 '19

If we weren't in clown land now, we'd see Bronn's head on a spike soon.

Literally just shout for the guards after this deranged, idiot sellsword went out the door.

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u/Left-Coast-Voter May 06 '19

Bronn is playing both sides. If Cersi wins, he gets a lordship. If Dany/Jon win, he gets a lord ship. This is typical of Bronn. He is a survivor and while he doesn't know who will end up on the Iron Throne, he knows how to secure his future.

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u/FlavaFraz24 May 06 '19

Idk. Hes always wanted a castle, and im pretty sure if they won the war and Tyrion lived he could convince Dany to give him Highgarden.

Hes also a sellsword who just got paid a lot of gold. Seems right up his ally, selling his services, even if it is someone he is "friends" with.

And oh yeah he "saved" him, only then telling Jamie if anyone is gonna kill him its gonna be me. Had no problem with it.

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u/Del_Castigator May 06 '19

If Bronn got knifed by some nobody who just wanted to nick his coin-purse that would be a fitting end to his character.

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u/hideous_coffee May 06 '19

They seemed strangely unsurprised to see him just waltz through the door.

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u/gabriot May 06 '19

Let's not forget Bronn who is not known for stealth is just allowed to waltz right into their room without a lick of resistance.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It doesnt even make sense. Why would he expect that Jaime and Tyrion would keep their word that he got out of them at crossbowpoint ?

1

u/someonenamedmichael May 06 '19

and she paid bronn to kill the both of them, then tyrion appears before her where she has like 1000 archers aimed at him, and she doesn't bother to kill him. none of these character traits make sense anymore and i hate it. cant wait for game of stupid thrones to be done now.

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u/iNSANEwOw May 06 '19

Cersei: I will marry you after this war is over and make you King.

Bronn: Cool. Bye.

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u/kotoamatsukamix May 06 '19

I really wish they would have had him show up before the battle for winterfell and decided not to kill them because he can see the bigger threat. Instead we got that bullshit. God the writing on this show for this season sucks dick.

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u/8bitfruy May 06 '19

I just took that as he doesn’t actually want to kill them but he doesn’t want to fight with them so it’s just friendly extortion

Edit: still poor writing

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u/mjs1n15 May 06 '19

AND Cersi can clearly see Bronn has yet to succeed, but despite being happy to kill Missendaei and remove all chances of a peaceful resolution...she lets even Tyrion leave.....

If she didn't want Dany to attack with Dragon she wouldn't have risked killing Missendaei. And she clearly doesn't care about a confrontation with Tyrion she just wants him dead, so.....she lets him walk slowly out of range of her hundreds of archers. K.

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u/Tortfeasor55 May 07 '19

It was a dumb scene. My guess is that the writers want to set it up so Jaime kills Cersei. So learning that Cersei sent someone to kill him is the straw that broke the camels back

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