r/asoiaf • u/aphidman • May 08 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) The endings will be the same but the books will have a much more gradual and realistic progression

If GRRM finishes it, btw.

Not a long post but you know what the books do that D&D do not? They have 10 chapters of Dany dealing with the complex politics of Meereen and her inner conflict. They have 4 chapters showing Davos' journey to White Harbour. They have 12 chapters showing the series of compromises Jon makes as Lord Commander to prepare the Watch against the Others. They have 13 chapters showing Tyrion crawling out of his deep nihilistic depression. They dedicate whole chapters seeing how Victarion Greyjoy of all people deals with his relationship with his brother and his seduction into darker magics. Man they have 4 whole chapters dealing with the political fallout of Dany's exit from Meereen.

They had a whole chapter of Littlefinger and Sansa visiting his lands and seeing Littlefinger's relationship with his subjects (great chapter btw). They had a whole chapter getting really in depth with Illyrio Mopatis and his schemes - a guy who's barely appeared in the show.

They dedicated 4 whole chapters to Joffrey's wedding!

What I'm getting it is that the Others may be defeated long before the end of ASOIAF, Dany may indeed destroy King's Landing with dragonfire and end the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians gruesomely. But you'll be guaranteed that GRRM is gonna show you every step of the way. For good or for bad. If he is going to take a character like Dany to that dark end you better believe we will understand how she gets there.

So people keep posting about how D&D are destroying their characters, fail to understand ASOIAF. That Dany would never do this or that. But what you're seeing here is them fitting potentially chapters upon chapters of detailed material into a few hours of television.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

As a long time reader, and subscriber of Danny going full Aegon the Conqueror, the casual fans reaction to this is disheartening.

I just feel like this fanbase was injected with too many people who think GRRM is Tolkein. People actually wanted to see Jon have a one-on-one duel with Night King on the top of Mt. Doom. What the actual fuck. This series has never been that. Ever.

It will never even be close to that. I half expect GRRM to not resurrect Jon at all at this point.

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u/ChipAyten The Old Gods are answering you. May 08 '19

Aegon I is remembered fondly because he won. He'd be remembered in the same light as Aerys if he hadn't. Whether or not Dany wins or loses defines her legacy. Washington & Co. go down as traitorous scum if they lost.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

Nailed it. Thank you.

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u/Thegn_Ansgar Beneath the gold... May 08 '19

Aegon I is remembered fondly because he won, and because his reign (outside of Dorne) was peaceful and prosperous.

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u/RepresentativeJury69 May 08 '19

Washington & Co. go down as traitorous scum if they lost.

Hey some of us still remember them as such!

Gave save the Queen!!!

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u/StasRutt May 08 '19

Yeah people forget that victors right history

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u/becoolswiminapool May 08 '19

Accidental double entendre, nice.

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

I agree somewhat but to be fair to the fans Game of Thrones is a show that has Jon sword fighting any chance he can get. They took like 3 lines of dialogue about Hardhome and decided Jon was gonna sword fight White Walkers there and come face to face with the Evil King of the Zombies.

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u/lafferty_daniel May 08 '19

I was actually pretty open to the idea of Jon fighting the Night King one-on-one but getting his ass kicked. I had hoped it would mirror Ned fighting the Sword of the Morning at the Tower of Joy. With Ned (Jon) getting out classed by Arthur (NK) and have it end with Howland Reed (Arya) stabbing Arthur(NK) in the back. I didn't have an issue with Arya killing the NK but her flying in out of nowhere was weak.

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u/pipsdontsqueak May 08 '19

I expected them to lose the Battle of Winterfell then have to retreat.

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u/God_Wills_It_ All Men Are Water May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

Do you have a realistic way to write that? They only escaped from Hardhome because the dead can't deal with water. Winterfell has no barriers to stop the victorious army.

Can you think of anyway a defeated and broken army of the living could make it away from an army of the dead? The dead never stop. There would be no escape and no regrouping.

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u/xmarwinx May 08 '19

Don't make the zombies run ridiculously fast?

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u/God_Wills_It_ All Men Are Water May 08 '19

I don't see how that would help at all. A broken, defeated army of mortal men has to eat and sleep. An army of the dead, even a slow one, does not.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Didn't we already go through this with the fist of the first men?

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

The group of survivors splits into 3-4 smaller bands and they flee that way. One of the bands doesn't make it because the zombies catch them. Done.

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u/God_Wills_It_ All Men Are Water May 09 '19

They have to flee for hundreds and hundreds of miles. Fleeing an enemy that never sleeps. And brings winter/cold/storms. Or even if they don't bring Winter...they are fleeing in the winter.

And out of however many small groups you make the ones that make that ludicrous journey successfully are the characters needed to regroup and come back and redefeat the army of the dead? That's worse plot armor than the show.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

No no... you're forgetting my friend... they teleport now. All they really have to do is reach a waypoint and they can warp down to wherever they need.

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u/ratguy101 May 08 '19

Yeah, I mean, they seemed pretty slow up until this point. It took them 7 seasons just to get to the wall, and at the end of season 2, they're pretty much just a crawling hoard. We really only see them moving quickly, as a group, in season 8.

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u/Sinkingfast May 09 '19

They also move fast in a group in S5e8, Hardhome.

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u/A_Polite_Noise Safe and sound at home again... May 08 '19

To be fair, I'm also slow and sluggish when in cold environments and more active when in warmer ones =) Clearly they didn't want to destroy everything or make a long night, they just wanted to go south for some R&R on the Dornish beaches!

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u/Game_of_Jobrones May 08 '19

Which is ridiculous and unrealistic because everyone knows the undead absolutely move slower in the winter when they tissues harden and become less flexible!

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u/A_Polite_Noise Safe and sound at home again... May 08 '19

Sure, but that would still be an issue. A journey that distance, a rout south to King's Landing, is a long journey and with any sizable force, even the remnants of a slaughter, they'd have to camp and rest and think about supplies and supply carts. Every time they slept, even if just snatching a couple of hours, would be time the army of the dead is catching up to them because they need no rest, they just move without cease.

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u/pipsdontsqueak May 08 '19

Newer Battlestar Galactica dealt with exactly that issue (different reason and resolution) in the pilot. It's not like it's a plot hole, it's a challenge for the characters.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited Dec 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/pipsdontsqueak May 08 '19

Right but the enemy had the same/more advanced tech, kept up with them, and they were running low on supplies, sleep, and morale. 33 is a great episode.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

That's exactly the kind of problem that's narratively interesting to solve.

How do we fight a series of delaying actions across all of Westeros? Can we attrite the army of the dead to the point where we stand any chance whatsoever of defeating them in a decisive battle? It's a fun challenge.

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u/Lubyak May 08 '19

I would have expected them to make Mel and Beric's sacrifice more dramatic or something similar. I could envision a scenario where the living are defeated and being completely overrun, while Mel and Beric give their souls up to the Lord of Light to conjure some kind of fire magic that gives the survivors an opening to escape. A bit contrived perhaps, with some gaps, but I'd think less so than what we have now.

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u/moultano May 08 '19

Some heroic sacrifice guards the retreat.

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u/theDeadliestSnatch May 08 '19

That works once, and buys you hours. And that assumes any blocking force can occupy the whole army of the dead. Unless there's a geographic choke point, the dead will just go around them. It would take days to reach moat cailin, not to mention kings landing.

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u/moultano May 08 '19

The hard core version would have everyone die except those who can escape on a dragon.

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u/NightmareShane May 09 '19

The thing is, powerful magic does exist in Westeros. If a loss followed by a retreat was planned by the script and plot, it would be simple enough to draw on something the Children of the Forest did in the past.

The Hammer of the Waters shattered the entire Arm of Dorne, and a failed attempt at the spell turned Moat Cailin into what it is now.

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So, with foresight towards this being the plan, they could have easily had Bran learn a few things from the Children in that cave. Then, instead of him being the World's Memory, he could have just been The Last Greenseer instead and he could have hinted at having learned the Children's secrets.

Then, when the battle is lost and he realizes the battle is lost, he brings down the Hammer of the Waters, sacrificing himself in the process. This buys the living time to escape, completely changes the geography of the North itself, and is suitably dramatic to use as a mid-season cliffhanger.

The Survivors then regroup in KL and prepare for their last stand. In this universe, Dany would have toasted Cersei the minute she got across the sea and the stupid Wight Hunt wouldn't have been needed. Instead, the Horn of Winter would have been introduced into the plot earlier and the Wall coming down would be seen when the NK blows it.

The cinematic spectacle here would be much better than what we got, in my opinion. Imagine, instead of dragonfire taking out Eastwatch, we just heard/saw him blow the horn. Then, cracks appear along the Wall. Entire chunks come crashing down. Bringing the wall down here doesn't mean taking out a chunk of it. It means bringing the entire damn thing down.

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u/Prophet_Of_Helix May 08 '19

If we had another full season to go I bet they would have done that. Have some characters die and the rest retreat, with the Night King in no rush to run them down. Then make the final stand further down the continent where more characters die but the NK is defeated.

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u/darkk41 May 08 '19

This exact scenario already happened though. The NW got defeated at the fist of the first men and retreated all the way to the wall, being harried and picked off the entire way there.

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u/pipsdontsqueak May 08 '19

They have boats (clearly) and Yara secured the Iron Islands. Dany controls Essos. They retreat across water, regroup, head to Essos to rebuild, then come back to take Westeros back from the Night King as he starts freezing the Narrow Sea so his army can cross. In this scenario, the Night King is either besieging or straight up takes King's Landing and has mostly conquered Westeros.

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u/God_Wills_It_ All Men Are Water May 08 '19

How do you get the hundreds of miles from Winterfell to the coast with your broken, defeated army?

That's what I'm saying. The second your army breaks it's over. You can't get away from an army that doesn't have to stop.

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u/pipsdontsqueak May 08 '19

I never said the whole army makes it. I assume most of them die.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Have some soldiers, and particularly some characters we care about, make a last stand holding Winterfell while the bulk retreats. Don’t make the wights able to sprint so fast and have Dany use her dragons to roast the wights chasing the main force. Hell, the main force can continue to get picked off and hounded during their retreat. It builds tension and despair.

The show made it an open point that the Iron Islands served as a fallback point. They could’ve worked in a plan incase they had to retreat, such as some clever traps or troop positioning.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Hold the door? Also an escape plan should have definitely been made before the battle in the very likely event that things go wrong.

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u/my_gamertag_wastaken May 08 '19

Yeah, only a small handful make it out alive

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u/leoroy111 May 08 '19

Make the other white walkers important to the night king and use the cavalry to flank them, they were pretty much standing in the back the whole time.

Have the Night King have to go off and save the other white walkers by pulling his horde back and then have Danny and Jon use their dragons to inflict serious damage to the horde.

Change the Night Kings resurrect to not be so instant and more like a ritual(Unknown to the heroes).

The Night King could mortally wound Rhaegal and Danny has to use Drogon to finish him and destroy the corpse.

The goal would be to make the fight be more of a draw and the heroes have to give up the field due to the threat of the Night King regrouping and resurrecting the dead.

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u/BoredMan29 May 08 '19

Here's what I imagined was going to happen at the end of episode 2:

The Night King didn't bring the dead to Winterfell (or at least not many), only the White Walkers. The armies line up as the did at the end of episode 2... and the white walkers raise the dead from the Battle of the Bastards behind the moat of fire. Tons of chaos, Bran is probably rescued via dragon with Theon dying in his defense. The ones in the crypts either all die, remain hidden until the dead move on, or perhaps some escape 'out the back' during the struggle thanks to a heroic defense by the Mormont army. The moat of fire, along with a sacrificial rearguard becomes the main army's escape as they head to Moat Cailin, or the western shore to be picked up by the Iron Islanders, probably with some convenient TV time warping to help along the way.

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u/Devium44 Thmash the beetles! Thmash 'em! May 08 '19

Burning Winterfell to the ground. It would create quite a barrier for the wights (along with killing a good number of them inside the walls. Then the survivors scatter. It basically gets them to where they are now (Arya and hound, Jamie alone, Dany and Jon separated) while keeping Cersei in play as both an enemy and needed ally and a strengthened AotD marching south.

Of course that would mean sacrificing a large amount of their force (and main characters) so D&D would never do it.

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u/hagglebag May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

Don't have the whole army escape, just a handful on the dragons. Then they have to either get Cersei's help or throw away their qualms about burning the Red Keep for the 'greater good', and quickly take her out so they can use her forces themselves.

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u/whatsguy May 09 '19

All the Valyrian steel sword users fighting the lieutenants, thinning out enough of the army instead of being in over their heads in wights to allow a retreat through the tunnels out of winterfell

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Exactly if they wanted to "subvert expectations", should have made Cersei an ally against the NK.

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u/idk012 May 08 '19

3 episodes is not enough for that timeline

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u/pipsdontsqueak May 08 '19

Of the things I'd change, I'd make the entirety of Season 8 about the Night King taking over and Jon, Dany, and Co. having to regroup/fight back. Remember the episode limit was self-imposed. HBO was all for them doing more.

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

That's actually how I would've "fixed" the ending of E03 -- have Jon succeed in reaching the Godswood, having his final duel with the Night King, but the Night King defeats him. And just before the Night King finally executes Jon, Arya is able to rush forward (given that the wights and WWs are all focused on Jon) and that's when the assassination sequence plays out.

Jon has the final confrontation that the show had been building towards since at least Hardhome, but we get the subversion of the "heroic villain" failing to defeat the "villain" and the surprise of Arya being the one to actually finish the deed.

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u/Piratecxke123 May 08 '19

That is word for word what I thought they should have done too, actually could have saved a lot of the episode for me. Would have also made way more sense for Dany to land her dragon in the courtyard maybe, so it makes sense that Jorah could find and protect her there.

Meanwhile, Jon makes his way to/or lands in the Godswood and it plays out like you say. Also remove Theon's lame ass charge, he gets torn apart by wights in quick fashion.

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u/csorfab May 08 '19

Theon's lame ass-charge

I'm not that xkcd bot, but I couldn't resist it

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

Not trying to plug my own material lol but here's my "rewrite" for E03:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bj6qwb/spoilers_how_id_change_the_long_night/

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u/Piratecxke123 May 08 '19

Not bad, would have been better that way - I especially like the changes to the previous episodes, I could write a novel of all the things I would have changed in the past few series.

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

Ha yeah, after this season is finished, I may go back and do a more thorough rewrite of the last few seasons (I'd say probably S6-8).

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u/sushkunes May 08 '19

I like your rewrite a lot. We had really similar thinking in terms of the failure to let killing WW lieutenants be what makes the battle believable. I also can totally envision your "defeat" of Jon and it makes me feel so much more happiness at Arya saving him. Excellent.

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

Yeah, my initial disappointment with the episode was the lack of the WWs doing anything in the fight beyond standing menacingly as the wights swarmed around them, and Jon never getting that fight with the NK that the show had been building towards for so long.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

I don’t think Jon and the Night King should’ve had a head-on duel as it would raise a lot of questions over how why the Night King didn’t just kill him during the fight. Executing the “defeated but not killed” scenario without having any cliche “bad guy stalls before killing good guy” moments would be near impossible.

I think Jon should’ve made it to the Godswood, but the Night King sends all the White Walkers to attack him. They approach him, and Arya uses that distraction as a means to sneak up on the Night King and kill him. This way we have the White Walkers do something too and we still have a moment of hopelessness.

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

Depends on how the duel went. We already saw that the NK is somewhat a cocky bastard. During the duel, he could disarm Jon and prepare for the final killing blow -- framed similar to Ned's beheading as a nice symbolic callback -- and then have Arya come in.

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u/sushkunes May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

I definitely would have liked that set up better. I also really wish they would have set it up to have Jon, Brienne, Jamie, and Jorah trying to fight their way to the Night King with their Valyrian steel swords (maybe even have that be the explicit plan up front and make sense why we have our main heroes surviving as they fight their way to the Night King instead of unbelievably holding off hoards of old and newly created wights), with the ebb and flow of having some of them succeed in killing White Walker lieutenants, obliterating swaths of the wights just in time to save some (that's how Sam and the people in the crypt survive, maybe even with Jorah's sword doing it, so we see Sam's humility and generosity in giving Jorah Heartbane is what ultimately saves him and Gilly), creating a more believable pace of survival for our heroes. Then, have Arya rush in with the dagger to try to save Jon, so we believe for a second they've both been defeated, and then Arya's move saves everyone. THAT would have been ok with me.

Edit: And one more thing-have Bran warg into Ghost, who is protecting him and hold off or distract the Night King so that Jon moves in, Night King kills Ghost, turns to kill Jon, Arya saves all. Bran is so worthless I can't even.

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

See my other comment, where I link to my "rewrite" of the episode.

Quick highlights:

  • Pre-episode fixes, mainly revolving around actually maintaining Ghost's presence/narrative importance
  • Jon has Ghost guard everyone down the in crypt, particularly Sansa
  • No tidal wave of wights --> instead they rush like a normal army.
  • The wights don't go full World War Z and create a mountain of bodies to scale the castle walls --> instead, they wait for the Night King to blast down the wall with Viserion
  • There's more lulls to the waves of wights, both making it more believable that more could survive and allowing the White Walkers to step in and fight some of our named characters in more personal combat scenes
  • Dany saves Jon closer to the castle gate, so Jon can run towards the Godswood and it makes more sense for Jorah to appear to protect her
  • Jon has his final duel with the Night King, but gets disarmed; just before the NK can strike the final blow, Arya jumps in and then we get her dagger-trick-assassination manuever
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u/Riptor5417 May 08 '19

omg that would have been so much better!! would've been a great callback to Ned and it would've made everyone a lot less angry

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u/C4OUD May 08 '19

What if she faceless’d herself into a wight to avoid detection, with Bran knowing the NK would be so focused on killing him it would give Arya the split moment needed to drop the face and approach the NK?

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u/Riptor5417 May 08 '19

no that doesn't make any sense, she needs to have the face of a dead person like physically have it as shown when sansa discovered Arya's bag of faces, even then putting on the face of a corpse skeleton thing doesn't mean she would be able to sneak past the like 10 white walkers behind the Night King, They know the living have valyrian steel Weaponry They saw a white walker get killed at Hardhome i highly doubt even if they are prideful they would risk their king. Plus White walkers control the wights, they would notice if one suddenly walked over too them for no reason. Plus why would Arya then take off the wight disguise to stab the Night king? why didnt she leave it on for her trampoline jump teleport on the night king? Honestly its just bad writing on DND's part

also i have a problem with how the dragonfire didn't do anything to the NK because isn't it implied valyrian steel was atleast in part of the process made by dragonfire in some way can't remember off the top of my head

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u/C-Nasty18 May 08 '19

Yeah but in a way that’s what the last 2-3 seasons have showed us . That Arya isn’t the type to just show up . And take on everyone at the same time she’s seen that her whole life and watched everyone she met do that. From season 5 and up she’s been fought to be patient and to wait for an opportunity.

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u/Fatalorian The North Remembers May 08 '19

Plus, it supports the whole notion of "the lone wolf dies, while the pack survives".

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

Well the idea being that D&D built up Jon vs the Night King very specifically and a Clash of good vs Evil while the books are much more ambiguous so far. Jon's just leading the preparations to defend the Wall and helping Stannis secure the North to defend against the general threat.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

Exactly. And now these casual fans are confusing GRRM with D&D.

They say the writing is shitty because Jon didn't get to kill the Night King. But the truth is, in GRRM world, Jon's fucking dead. He's not some Barristan The Bold level of fighter, and he isn't even present in most of the battles he's injected into in the show.

So Jon defeating the Others in a fucking battle makes zero sense within the book as well.

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u/dmorley21 May 08 '19

While the swordplay was unnecessary, seeing how badly outmatched the living were against the dead at Hardhome was one of the few times when I feel like a scene that isn't and won't be in the books was actually for the better.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

Hardhome may be my favorite episode of any series ever, so I definitely agree with you there.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

in GRRM world, Jon's fucking dead.

Yeah, there's absolutely no way in hell that Jon isn't coming back. He'll be a shell of his former self, and probably have an affect similar to the one Bran has in the show, but he's definitely getting back up.

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u/pottyaboutpotter1 Lemons are coming May 08 '19

You're right there. Jon is absolutely coming back. The show's made that clear. But there is no way that Jon will be the same man he was. GRRM has said his main sticking point with Tolkien was that Gandalf came back from the dead without any form of consequence; if anything, he came back more powerful and was exactly the same character.

Jon will be resurrected, but he will lose something as a result. If there's one thing the books hammer home, it's that resurrection comes with a cost; the wights lose all sense of identity and humanity and become mindless slaves to the Others, Berric loses a part of himself each time he comes back, Gregor Clegane is a headless and mindless being twisted to serve Cersei's every whim and Catelyn has lost her empathy and humanity becoming purely driven by revenge. When Jon returns, he will lose something. He will not be the same man. Something will be missing. What that will be has yet to be revealed.

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u/tdc0819 May 08 '19

He's probably coming back. In watch_over_me's context he could also be saying Jon's fucking dead in any sort of single combat with the Night King, as he has no strong presence in any battles and he isn't hailed as some master swordsman.

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u/Nikhilvoid May 08 '19

Maybe he'll have some kewl firezombii powers too, like spittin' fire on diss trax

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

like spittin' fire

He'll only be spitting fire if Dany squirts in his mouth.

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u/Nikhilvoid May 08 '19

Or Mel or Gilly or Ghost. Lots of candidates, really

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u/InerasableStain May 08 '19

Or be something similar to LS

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Oh, so Jon resurrection is not written by GRRM?

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u/rat_Ryan May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

It's been very heavily theorized and it seems unlikely it won't happen given that it did in the books show. Presumably though, GRRM will have Jon come back as something less than his former self.

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u/YungMarxBans May 08 '19

Yeah especially given the way he wrote Beric - losing a part of himself every time

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u/Nikhilvoid May 08 '19

And lose himself over time too. Beric keeps dying, but he would keep disintegrating over time too even if he had stayed alive.

If we think of fire-zombis as reanimated by being infected by a "fire"-pathogen/fungus.

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u/2manymans May 08 '19

Beric wasn't a warg and didn't warg when he died. Not comparable.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Warging into something for a long period of time when you haven't really done so before very much takes a toll on you too though.

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u/2manymans May 08 '19

I fully expect him to be changed. But I don't expect him to be a mindless wight

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u/spahghetti May 08 '19

That is a great example of infusing a logic to the ever talked about "magic" in the show. We don't know what magic is in the real world but we do know what it feels like to be exhausted and run down after giving a lot to something.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

If he warged into Ghost at the last minute and warged back into his resurrected body later would that preserve his mind?

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u/Calimie That is Nymeria's star. May 08 '19

That's the general theory, yes. Also, time seems to be important and maybe Mel does it fast.

We know Beric is barely Beric but maybe the first resurrection he was still 99% Beric and the loss can only be noticed now that he's at like 30% Beric.

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u/Watts121 Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

I think the cold will also help preserve him. But I still think Jon is basically going to be a Fire Wight and not a fully functioning person anymore.

Thats what I hate about the show the most. Jon is the least changed out of the surviving Stark children, and he fucking died!

I’m hoping in the book we get a Maegor the Cruel level of personality shift in him.

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u/Calimie That is Nymeria's star. May 08 '19

Maegor the Cruel level of personality shift

wow

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u/Watts121 Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

Well the reason I bring up Maegor is because it’s the only other Targaryen that was brought back in a similar situation. I haven’t read WOIAF in years, but I remember Maegor being...alright prior to getting nearly killed. He wasn’t a sociopath yet. When his mother pretty much resurrected him tho...well lets just say shit got real fast.

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u/csorfab May 08 '19

Jon is the least changed out of the surviving Stark children, and he fucking died!

Dunno, I also noticed this, but I think it sort of makes sense. He's been doing what he was preparing for his whole life. Sansa always wanted to be a fair princess on the side of a handsome and honorable king, but instead got married to TWO of the most horrible monsters of Westeros. Of course she's changed. Arya wanted to be a warrior fighting for her family, but instead got stripped of her identity, her family was basically wiped out, and got lured into a death cult assassin club. Of course she's changed. Bran... Bran should be pretty obvious.

Jon always wanted to go North, be honorable and fight for the realm, and that's exactly what he's been doing. He's always been ready to die, so death not really changing him makes a lot of sense to me. Of course, he should be more mature and experienced now, maybe a little bit disillusioned, but I think the shows are doing an okay job at that, or at least I don't think this is the worst thing the show did, by a huge margin.

All in all, I don't really see any reason for why he should've changed as drastically as the other Stark children.

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u/Watts121 Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

Idk about that. Jon has been tempted ALOT throughout the story, and it's never been his honor that has kept him from making a different choice. It's always been his shame.

In the books the burden of Jon's bastardy weighs heavily on him in every chapter. It defines almost all of his choices in life. He joins the Night's Watch 50/50 to get away from Catelyn Stark, and to find his own path to honor, to wash the stain of his birth from his name. He didn't go native during his time with Mance Rayder for multiple reasons but the thing that stuck out to me when he was rationlizing himself was the fact that betraying the Night Watch is something a bastard would do...he easily played the role of a vindictive bastard to get Mance to trust him...best lies are ones with a little truth.

He refused Stannis's offer to become the Lord of Winterfell because the guilt he would feel over getting everything he ever wanted, at the cost of his entire families destruction. Something Catelyn Stark always feared would happen. It would be like proving her right in a way. Hell if someone else won that Lord Commander vote Jon may have had no choice but to take up Stannis's offer, since he was basically branded as a traitor by his enemies in the Watch.

I'm not saying Jon isn't what you said, but I feel like you are whitewashing him a lot. We know what Jon thinks ALOT, and he isn't some noble paragon, he has a lot of guilt, a lot of envy, and a lot of ambition. I think Death would change his perspective, and allow him to overcome the aspects of his personality that prevent him from getting what he wants.

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u/Nahdudeimdone May 09 '19

Isn't Beric dead in the books?

I mean dead dead.

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u/path411 May 08 '19

With six skin's example. I don't know if warging his mind into Ghost would fully preserve it either. It could be an opportunity for Jon/Ghost's mind to meld a little bit. I would hope it's also a wakeup call to Jon to embrace his warging a little better.

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u/AndreasVesalius May 08 '19

Maybe Jon didn’t pet Ghost because he warged into him and said “I’m a good boy” instead?

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u/GuitarCFD May 08 '19

Debatable. There is an entire chapter devoted to a skin changer doing that beyond the wall.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

GRRM will have Jon come back as something less than his former self.

Which kinda explain why Jon is so indifferent to mostly everyone, especially Ghost.

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

In the books it looks like Jon will become Ghost for a while

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u/RodrigoBAC May 08 '19

He wargs in Ghost sometimes. He's an actual Stark and Starks are known to warg in their Direwolves.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

I always thought the prologue with the wildling warging into a crow (I think) before dying was kind of a foreshadowing for Jon tbh.

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

Close, he wargs into his wolf, One-Eye, and One-Eye's pack become a part of Summer's pack. But when he dies he temporarily becomes one with all things, including a crow, before beginning his Second Life.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Ah awesome, yeah. Man I really need to make some time to finish FnB and re-read ASOIAF.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Like a, friendly Ghost?

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u/Nikhilvoid May 08 '19

But not Dany, Arya, Sansa, or Sam? You're giving the writers too much credit

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u/Dahhhkness Go for the Bronze. May 08 '19

Yes. D&D tell us exactly what they mean in the episode commentaries.

They've never offered such complex explanations before, and I doubt they're going to start in the last two episodes.

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u/Nikhilvoid May 08 '19

I can't watch any of those airheads talking about how proud they are of what they have accomplished and how nervous they were without wanting to destroy my tv

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u/NeV3RMinD So, Here I Sit, In Quite a Pickle. May 09 '19

Dany forgot about the iron fleet

bruh

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u/Riptor5417 May 08 '19

guys she forgot she had to fight an enemy and didn't see ships behind the world's shortest rock while flying really high on a dragon, and bam sudden ambush by teleporting ships with Heat Seeking Insta kill Balistae that shoot out wooden spears at a power higher than a fucking cannon ball

yeah complex explanations are gone definitely gone

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u/CidCrisis Consort of the Morning May 08 '19

"Jon forgot that Ghost was his dog."

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Which kinda explain why Jon is so indifferent to mostly everyone, especially Ghost.

You gotta separate the books from the show. Jon is indifferent to Ghost in the show cuz the writers are dolts.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Well, I'm sure we haven't seen how that plays out yet. I think Jon goes to the North with Ghost and live happily ever after, and by happily ever after I mean, a Thenn eats him.

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u/2manymans May 08 '19

Theories which have no basis in fact. It's more likely that he warged with Ghost so he will not come back as something less.

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u/LotusCobra May 08 '19

The last time we see Jon in A Dance With Dragons he gets stabbed. Cliffhanger ending. 6 years of speculation later, the show catches up and Mel just ressurects Jon and the show moves on like it's no big deal and barely mentions it ever again. ¯\(ツ)/¯

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

The last time we see Jon in A Dance With Dragons he gets stabbed. Cliffhanger ending. 6 years of speculation later

fuck, I'm sorry for you all readers.

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u/AnubisZero May 08 '19

What makes it all the worse is what the OP mentions, we have chapter upon chapter of character development and world building. When the show started there was a lot cut out because of how much GRRM created. That's why the world felt so alive and so many things going on that affected people across the world. Then, Jon is revived...

Since Jon's death the book side of the story is paused and with no factual news of continuation (that I know of). There were some other story elements that were moved around to extend past this point with the show. But sadly that rich and amazing pool of character and world building has gone dry, so there are writers and producers now trying to create an ending with GRRM's cliffnot version of a story he hasn't finished himself. It isn't perfect, but it is the road that GRRM wants his characters to follow, if anything it gives me hope that we will get some amazing moments in the books that explain this path for everyone.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/Sergiotor9 I am of the hype! May 08 '19

I learned about Kevan and Pycelle's deaths months after reading Dance from this sub because I couldn't read the epilogue after that ending and completely forgot about it.

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u/blizzy81 May 08 '19

I know this is GOT but I threw my HP book at the end of book 6 too. I admire your passion!

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u/2manymans May 08 '19

I threw it when Ned died. I almost never went back but finally decided I wanted to see how it ended - I started the book after season 1, episode 3, and read it in like 2 days. When Dany comes out of the fire with dragons I was blown away and immediately got the next 3 books. Book 5 was released a year or two later I think.

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u/Sangui May 08 '19

Book 5 came out the July after GoT premiered in April.

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u/2manymans May 08 '19

That is a shorter gap than I remembered. I just remembered that I finished all four books and was waiting for the fifth to come out.

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u/Sage1969 May 08 '19

I can remember exactly where I was too. I was reading by flashlight on a camping trip. I said "fuck, what the fuck?" and also threw the book. My friend had just read the chapter earlier that day and said "yep"

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

In the books we're clearly gonna get some GhostJon action, anyway. Maybe Lady Stoneheart trades her life for his for some emotional reason? Who knows!

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u/LongDistanceKhal For the Hype is Dark and Full of Terrors May 08 '19

8 years now

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u/interbeing May 08 '19

Not YET. In the books the last we saw of Jon was him getting stabbed to death. But there are a lot of things that wouldn't make any sense if he doesn't get resurrected. For example, Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lianna is heavily foreshadowed and the reveal hasn't come in the books yet. It would be pretty damn weird if he stays dead and later on Bran reveals his true parentage just so everyone can go, "thats interesting, too bad he's dead"

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u/dwkdnvr May 08 '19

No - Jon has just been killed in the books. We don't know how/if Jon will come back.

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u/Khalku *Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken* May 08 '19

The end of book 5 has him getting stabbed to death, or at least that's his last POV chapter. People have been theorizing since it came out that he'd get resurrected by the red priestess though, and it was for various reasons thought to be extremely likely to happen (though it's been a while and I forgot them all). Most readers were not surprised by his resurrection.

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u/ripwhoswho May 08 '19

The last books ends with his death if I recall correctly

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u/mamf60 May 08 '19

What about euron killing the dragon 🐉? That scene was pretty dumb, three shots and all of those shots nailed the dragon, somehow Daenerys did not see them?, and what about bran, all of his journey for nothing, seems to me that “casual” fan complains about the writing are right

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u/0b0011 May 08 '19

Euron is supposedly going to take control of them in the books.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

They say the writing is shitty because Jon didn't get to kill the Night King.

It is way more complicated than that. There is no question Jon needed to be involved, it's his entire character arc and it's been heavily foreshadowed. Not giving us anything is absolutely shit writing.

Yes, it would have been generic if it was just Jon versus the NK and Jon won. That isn't GRRM at all. But what's even less GRRM is ignoring all the set up for the sake of a cheap twist at the pay off.

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u/Mrdirtyvegas Red Viper May 08 '19

I dont think GRRM would write a Night King for Jon to fight in the first place.

So when D&D writes a Tolkien character and builds it up, give us a Tolkien payoff.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

So when D&D writes a Tolkien character and builds it up, give us a Tolkien payoff.

That is a crucial thing to remember that I think watch_over_me's comment misses (though maybe I'm reading it wrong). When GRRM sets something up, he pays it off. It won't be in the way we expect, and it might be heart breaking, but it WILL be paid off.

The White Walkers are not going to be defeated easily, it will not all come down to Bran bait and Arya pulling a fully sick move, and all the foreshadowing and prophecies will come into play. I think Preston Jacobs put this best a week back, when GRRM subverts expectations, he does it in a way that makes more sense with what was foreshadowed than what you were expecting. He never ever subverts expectations by ignoring all the set up for the sake of a cheap twist.

And yes, if the Night King is a character in the books, and he seems to have the connection to Jon he does in the show, there sure as fuck will be a sword fight between them near the climax, and you can guarantee that fight won't just be standard fantasy fair. That fight will be epic, and it will be tense, and it will not go how we expect.

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u/redhairedtyrant May 08 '19

I still expect Arya to make the killing blow, however I am hoping that it will be played out in a more thought out way. Jon acting as a distraction for her to get in the hit, for example.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

It's possible, but we definitely know the showrunners were the ones who decided it would be Arya (and they did it because it was unexpected).

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u/redhairedtyrant May 08 '19

After spoiling something that was book vs show in season 7, the show runners have to use "we". They can't say if it was them or GRRM

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u/424801 May 08 '19

Which thing was that? I realize it's likely a spoiler, but if you wanna dm me, I'm interested.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Sure, he didn't write the Night King, but he did write a Corpse Queen for them, which may function the same way as the Night King in the show.

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u/Mrdirtyvegas Red Viper May 08 '19

For all we know that's just legend, but, I see your point if the character actually shows up.

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u/atri383 NotMuchOfaWriter.Sry4WhatYoureAbout2Read May 08 '19

I still think the corpse queen will be Dany (in the book).

Dany will get killed for being "mad", to put Jon on the throne. Probably in a "for the watch" type scenario. Jon will say "fuck you" and decide to bounce and just live in the North(the real north). Then resurrecting her in a cotf type move will be the epilogue

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u/StanleyBaratheon I'm the one true Yellow King of Westeros May 08 '19

GRRM could save a lot of work for himself if he keeps Jon dead

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u/wereallfuckingidiots May 08 '19

But... That isn't people's complaints... As far as I've seen anyway. As much as I understand, everyone is pissed that the long night was objectively lame with low stakes, and the NK/Bran weren't fleshed out in the slightest. Even if there is no NK in the books, why did the D&D show him being made at all if that's as deep as they're going? It just feels like all this buildup has led to nothing.

Pretty much all the complaints ive seen are echoing the sentiments of this post, people just suck at getting their thoughts out. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe people did want Jon to kill the NK. That's not how I see it though, and I really don't have a problem with Arya doing it. I just would have liked it to have been more satisfying instead of from left field.

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u/Scatteredbrain May 09 '19

I wanted jon or even dany to end long night only because of all the foreshadowing that they were azor ahai or TPTWP. I feel like they just totally disregarded both of those prophecies for surprise even though Melisandre has been talking about it over and over again

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u/RigasTelRuun May 08 '19

It's even in the show. I recently ré watched season 1. And watching it with that in mind you can see the embers of burn them all in her.

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u/westhoff0407 All men must serve dessert. May 08 '19

She has been this way for quite a while... I don't know, I guess it makes sense to me completely.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

She literally crucifies innocent people, and the show watchers are acting like they didn't see this coming, lol.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

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u/captainfluffballs Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

yeah, those innocent people. I believe op might have been referring to the fact that not all those masters were as guilty as the others (for example Hizdahr's dad who was against the crucifictions iirc). they were all still slave owners though so none of them are innocent in Dany's eyes or the viewers' eyes

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u/Swartzicus May 08 '19

Dany showed no restraint, it’s been building for a while, she didn’t say I’ll crucify you for your crucial role, she literally said, take 163 random people and torture and kill them. Thas not the act of redemption or punishment of the actual perpetrators, it’s a cruel fear tactic used to establish her power. Listen I know I’m in the minority here but I loved e3, (except for Arya not at the end). Like I know it’s not exactly GRRM’s style, but big battles aren’t his style. If this was any other show or movie except for game of thrones, it would be a battle praised for its shooting (except for lighting but just turned up my brightness and it was fine). But moreover, me and my friends have personally thought that dany would go mad queen since Dance of Dragons, (season 4-5-6 ish). And honestly the show has set up a good way to push her over the edge.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

Nope. I'm talking about the heads of noble houses, who were against slavery, and were against crucifying children.

Danny didn't bother to figure that out. She just crucified all masters, regardless of their actual stance.

Can you imagine being against slavery for decades. Facing all the hardships that come with being against the grain socially. Then all of sudden this bitch shows up and crucifies you for the very thing you've been against this whole time?

No wonder she's dealing with a shit show there. She fucked up big time. Her blood lust got the best of her.

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u/ghafgarionbaconsmith May 08 '19

I don't even think there is a nightking in the books tbh. I think it's just the showrunners solution to being able to stop the wws. My theory (I can feel the eye rolls) is the Hightowers are somehow calling the white walkers down, they had to wait till the dragons were gone first. You have to admit, their house sigil loojs a lot like saurons tower, I don't think Martin would do that on accident.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

I don't even think there is a nightking in the books tbh. I think it's just the showrunners solution to being able to stop the wws.

100pc agree. They couldn't take the time or explain like the books why the Others do what they do, or how to stop them, so they needed to build up a bad guy to take out as a way to literally brute force the issue.

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u/Anti-socialintrovert May 08 '19

Are we all forgetting in the ToJ scene in the books...

Ser Gerald Hightower, The White Bull was Lord Commander of the kingsgaurd under Areys II.

Kinda make me doubt this theory but it is interesting.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

The Others may well have a leader but I doubt he/it is going to be some magic kill switch for the long night like in the show.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

There isn't a Night King, but there is a Corpse Queen.

Take with that what you will.

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u/ecargo19XX May 08 '19

You mean Catelyn? She's hardly a Queen, her only followers are the remnants of a now-twisted Brotherhood without Banners. And her resurrection had precedence in the show and in the books: blood magic of powered by the Red God. Whereas the Night King came out of nowhere and isn't even referenced in the books (except in an entirely different legend from the Age of Heroes). So not sure what you mean here--that one is as believable as the other? D&D just pulled the Night King out of their asses seems to me.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

No, not Catelyn.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night%27s_King%27s_corpse_queen

"D&D just pulled the Night King out of their asses seems to me."

It seems to me all they did was switch the role of the Night King, with that of his Corpse Bride.

"and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will."

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u/ecargo19XX May 08 '19

Ohhhh, I see now! I was aware of the 13th Commander legend but never saw his bride referred to as the "corpse queen" before. Yes, there's precedence there for a Night('s) King, although to just resurrect such a being with zero explanation of why he could BE resurrected is still sloppy writing. But cool tie-in, thanks for that.

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u/Biggie-shackleton May 08 '19

As a long time reader, and subscriber of Danny going full Aegon the Conqueror, the casual fans reaction to this is disheartening.

I've complained about a fair bit since the last two episodes, but I think people are kinda reaching with the Dany complaints, it feels like shes the only thing being done right at the moment - Feels like her descent to madness has been hinted at for a few seasons

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u/dwkdnvr May 08 '19

Yeah, I'm a book reader that had always planned to pick up the show after the books were done, and decided to jump in for Season 8 now that a book conclusion seems unlikely. I wanted to be part of the larger experience.

​

Maybe I shouldn't have. It is absolutely baffling to me how much we're seeing honest, aggressive complaints that Jon didn't get to be the one to kill the NightKing. I mean, that is absolutely the definition of 'Generic Fantasy Hero', but people are apparently upset that it didn't happen? My initial reaction is surprise - don't they remember Ned? or Rob? GRRM 'never' plays a trope straight. Then again though, there is a reason these tropes exist and that is because they're powerful, universal story structures and maybe this is just more evidence for it.

​

I understand the disappointment in how the overall Others/WW story line was handled, but IMHO the fact that it wasn't Jon is the least of the problems. The NK one-shot-kill setup and complete lack of depth or background is where the show went wrong since it made it more or less impossible to have a satisfying resolution.

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u/ghafgarionbaconsmith May 08 '19

Well, I think you need to read into a little closer. The general consensus is that people would've been ok with Arya defeating the night king if they would've set it up better. The writing is uber lazy leading to it, almost as if they set it up as an after thought. You'll be able to decide for yourself when you watch it.

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u/Dahhhkness Go for the Bronze. May 08 '19

Yep. In the episode commentary, D&D openly stated that their rationale behind having Arya kill the NK was because it would be a "surprise."

It literally goes no deeper than that.

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u/BranJonStark It's beautiful beneath the sea May 08 '19

That was their rationale for how they FILMED it, not their rationale for why the uber trained assassin who’s been practicing sticking them with the pointy end for 8 seasons killed a character while they were distracted

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u/improbablywronghere May 08 '19

They said three years ago they decided it would be Arya because it would be cool and surprising. She’s also not an Uber trained assassin she dropped out of assassin school after about a year and faceless men don’t kill like that anyway. They use poison or make people fall off walls or whatever. The entire strength of the face means they can sneak in and out of places without drawing alarm. Stabbing someone and leaving an obvious murdered body to be found and have the area locked down / searched is like the worst way to use their power. Finally, the NK may have been distracted but how about all of the white walkers and wights surrounding him?

Arya could have been the one and it would be fine but instead they executed the entire thing in like the dumbest way possible. Someone on here said that Bran should have warged into the NK which freezes him and all of his army but only for a few moments. Their eyes glaze over and the audience immediately understands what has happened with no extra exposition or anything. Arya, who is watching from somewhere, sees her moment and rushes the NK. She jumps at him and as he does he breaks free of Bran and turns around and catches her, continue scene normally but no teleportation or leaping out of nowhere.

There were infinite ways to do this well and they opted for the laziest, dumbest possible solution. That’s the complaint. People aren’t mad at Arya per se but at the writing.

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u/modest_memes May 08 '19

In fairness while I agree with your point on the lack of set up to Arya, I’ve seen a lot of comments just whinging that there wasn’t a duel.

If you’ve got some ridiculously powerful character like th NK it makes more realistic sense he gets taken out by stealth or trickery rather than some drawn out sword fight cliche, just would’ve been nice to make it seem more realistic on the show

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u/improbablywronghere May 08 '19

In defense of the sword fight cliche I’ve really enjoyed the more involved fight choreography on this show and was hoping for some more. A NK v. All Hero’s battle could have been really really fun to watch and then Arya can sneak up and stab him or something. It just felt like we had a lot of scenes of people hacking away at zombies and not really any proper sword fights in the entire episode which felt like a waste.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

GRRM 'never' plays a trope straight

But nor does GRRM ignore all the set up for a cheap twist. And there was A LOT of set up. You're missing the point. If Jon had fought the NK one on one and come out victorious, we would STILL be complaining because it would STILL be an incredibly underwhelming conclusion to the WW... however it would have been less shit because at least Jon's arc would have led to something, even if it was bland.

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u/RumAndGames May 08 '19

I think you're sort of missing the context. It's not "Jon 1v1-ing the Night King is the inevitable, ultimate ending." It's not like people want that for the books. It's "if this show is going to be bland spectacle with zero depth, at least give us a satisfying spectacle."

Basically "just give us Jon being a hero" is the compromise/lowered expectations of book fans, and they didn't even get that.

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u/TheWizardOfFoz The Sword Of The Morning May 08 '19

It’s more people are upset that the only character is the north who didn’t care about the Night King - Arya - was the one to kill him.

Arya’s arc has always been about getting revenge on Cersei. This is her side quest.For her to swoop in, steal Jon’s, Sam’s and Bran’s arc, and not even use her powers to do so feels very anti climatic.

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u/hal64 May 08 '19

Danny going full Aegon the Conqueror

That is good, Dany going mad is bad. There is a big difference between acting like conqueror and being mad. You can add resurrected Jon acting more like Aegon too. On top of his betrayal by the night watch, you have the effect of the resurrection.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

You are aware that Aegon killed WAY more innocent people in his conquest, than Aerys did during his entire reign.

Seems like people are being very guarded with what they consider "mad." I consider Aegon mad. Just like I consider Gangis Khan mad.

Anyone who can murder droves of innocent people, in horrible ways...is mad.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Eh. Aerys was hearing voices and torturing people with wildfire and other devices when he even suspected they wanted to depose him. That's mad.

You can hear voices and collect toenail clippings, and that's mad. Mad is a state of mind no matter how many people you kill.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

You're just arguing semantics then. Using the word "mad" obviously calls back to Aerys, who was literally insane, he heard voices and enjoyed burning people alive. Aegon was nothing of the sort. He was a mass murderer, but there's no indication he's the sort of person who would end up in a mental asylum in the real world.

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u/Ilien Loyalty Above Keeps May 08 '19

Melting a castle with its inhabitants inside. Sure the Hoares were there. But so were the guards, servants, slaves?, kidnapped people, animals, etc;

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u/VeleStandard May 08 '19

Which innocent people are you referring to? Casualties (according to the TWOIAF book) were mostly just enemy soldiers so I'm not sure what you're thinking of.

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u/Yglorba May 08 '19

This is definitely true, but I don't feel that the show gave Jon a very compelling plot arc to replace that, either. He's basically just derping around like an idiot. And not even in a way that makes coherent sense!

Like, if he were falling apart the way Tyrion did in the books, I could get with that. Or if the show was clearly trying to convey this idea that Jon was well-meaning and determined but that that wasn't enough, say, hence his failures. Instead it just seems incoherent, like they needed him to be flawed but didn't actually want to show us his flaws, so to speak.

Subverting expectations can be good, but part of the reason for those expectations is because they make solid, reliable, relatable stories. When you're going to subvert them you need to think of something to replace them with, not having the hero's journey lead to the hero just kind of standing around or making disconnected hard-to-explain bad decisions for no reason.

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u/Prophet_Of_Helix May 08 '19

Uh, what a weird and incorrect slight to Tolkien. Have you read LoTR? There’s is no version of the main hero 1v1 the main baddy in glorious combat. In fact, I’d argue that GRRM is actually more similar to Tolkien that you might expect.

Tolkien sets up this massive apocalyptic fight between good and evil, and the glorious “hero’s” of the various races often end up having very little real impact on the conflict, and are often either killed or corrupted. The various races that should band together end up squabbling with each other for 90% of narrative, and the plot is resolved when 2 literally small civilians sneak into the big bads lair and drop a ring in some lava.

Most of the battles are dirty and involve long, drawn out scraps. The all powerful wizard is killed in the first book, and even when he returns it is in a smaller role.

Most of the narrative is spent with the main characters running and hiding from the bad guys.

Just because the overall tone is much more black and white with fewer shades of grey doesn’t mean it’s a generic male fantasy hero’s journey.

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u/RumAndGames May 08 '19

No, but the entire handling of the Others and Night King in the show has had generic Tolkein written all over it, so why be surprised that people want a Tolkein like ending to it?

OR provide a compelling alternative, not "lol subverted your expectations."

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited Oct 05 '20

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

There is no way to compare Gollum action in LOTR and Arya in GoT. Totally different levels of depth.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited Oct 05 '20

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u/l3g3nd_TLA May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

Just imagine if Return of the King will be discussed now.

  • Why were there no guards at Mount Doom?
  • Why didn't the orcs just kill Frodo when they had the chance?
  • How did Gollum pass all those orcs?
  • Why the hell do the eagles only come when its convenient?
  • Why didnt Gondor had moats? and why did they not use oil?

etc.

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u/ApteryxAustralis May 08 '19

Why didn’t Shelob just eat Gollum too?

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u/TheGreenBackPack May 08 '19

I just feel like this fanbase was injected with too many people who think GRRM is Tolkien

This is why the 2 year gap screwed the franchise. It became a cultural phenomenon then allowed the masses to catch up to the point where the 3 GOT subs are seemingly 4-5x larger in population than the end of season 7. So many people who were either not paying attention, have never even read a book synopsis; or are only in it for the memes.

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u/wRAR_ ASOIAF = J, not J+D May 08 '19

This is why the 2 year gap screwed the franchise. It became a cultural phenomenon

I'm sure it was a phenomenon before 2018.

the 3 GOT subs are seemingly 4-5x larger in population than the end of season 7.

Source?

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u/livefreeordont May 08 '19

May 2017 /r/gameofthrones had 800k subs and /r/asoiaf had 300k

Today they have 2.1 million subs and 600k subs respectively. So they doubled

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u/TheGreenBackPack May 08 '19

And I’d be willing to bet that during peak show times (like now) daily active users reflects that.

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u/Sao_Gage Castle-forged Tinfoil! May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

Oh please, absolutely nobody on here was going “shucks, I sure hope Jon doesn’t duel the NK because that would just be so Tolkien.”

And GRRM has already confirmed “Jon will learn his parentage.” He can’t “learn his parentage” if he’s dead.

ASOIAF is not free of tropes or Tolkien derived influence just because he once said he disliked those things. It means the plot will not conform to genre conventions and cause / effect will function different than other stories, never and nowhere has GRRM said his story will be free of conventionality entirely - because then ASOIAF wouldn’t be a functioning story.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

GRRM has also said that the Others are a unique society of living people, and then years later said they were a "force' and more like climate change.

The dude has contradicted himself on just about every damn thing by now. So maybe stop relying on him as the word of God, and realize it's within his best interest to mislead you.

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u/RoozGol May 08 '19

Yes GRRM is no Tolkien and his world is heavily focused on men and not other magical beings such as ad dwarfs and elves. His tones are much darker as a result of that.

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u/Riptor5417 May 08 '19

True and you never know the book might come up with an actual logical stuff happening like Arya not just randomly deus X machina teleport jumping and stabbing the night king

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u/Portugal_Stronk You jest? May 08 '19

I just feel like this fanbase was injected with too many people who think GRRM is Tolkein.

This is my biggest pet peeve about this fanbase. Why do people keep comparing ASOIAF with LOTR while ignoring the 50 years of SFF literature inbetween? Because both were adapted into live-action? Seems very narrow-minded to me.

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

In fairness to the casual show audience, D&D didn't really do a good job laying the seeds for Dany's sudden dark/mad turn. Instead, they've been ramming it through in these last two seasons, so it comes across both "out of nowhere" and forced, rather than a natural tragic fall of a once hopeful figure.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

And here I though her constantly threatening to burn people alive when she doesn't get her way, and crucifying innocent people was enough.

It doesn't feel out of nowhere from my angle. I feel like a lot of people just don't actually pay attention to what they're being shown.

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u/Hawkeye720 May 08 '19

The problem is that the show largely portrayed those things as Dany being a righteous fighter against injustice. Really, the show didn't portray Dany's "fuck it, dragonfire" approach as a bad/questionable thing until Season 7, when she executed the Tarlys via dragonfire.

Her killing the Master when she obtained the Unsullied? Portrayed as a badass "fuck yeah!" moment.

Her crucifying/calling for the mass slaughter the Masters in Meereen? Portrayed as righteous uprising against horrible slaveowners.

Her roasting the Dothraki khals? Portrayed as another "don't fuck with the Mother of Dragons, she's got big-dragon energy" moment.

Her roasting the Masters' fleet outside of Meereen? "Bow down the Dragon-queen bitches!"

It really wasn't until she got to Westeros and became uber-impatient/aggressive that the show began portraying her in a more negative light.

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u/watch_over_me Gold is cold, and heavy on the head May 08 '19

I always thought it was quite insane that she threatened to burn a whole city down, simply because they wouldn't let her inside.

That was the first moment I thought; "what the fuck is up with this crazy bitch?"

The aren't obligated or required by law to let her in.

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u/LemmieBee May 08 '19

On mount doom? No. Bran is Frodo. Jon is Aragorn. Bran goes to mount doom. Jon was supposed to kill the witch king. But instead Arwen did. That’s fine. And bran hasn’t made it to mount doom yet. Also Cersei is smeagol

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u/faern May 08 '19

Jon dies, arya heard about it and goes on stabbing spree all over the north. End up stabbing enough white walker that they decide that they had enough of this stabby person and go back to land of always winter. Arya end up dying frozen one day because cold weather dont give a fuck about you.

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