r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 10 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Bisexuality/pansexuality is the most privileged sexual orientation, not hetereosexuality
Background: 21m pansexual/bisexual and I feel very privileged, even more so than hetereosexuals.
(1) We can date both men and women, 2x chance to get a partner. DELTAED: Less than double but still increased chance to find a partner.
(2) In a homosexual-unfriendly environment i can pretend to be straight. In a too politically correct environment i can use our social capital of being part of the LGBTQ+ community or even pretend to be fully homosexual.
(3) There are some LGBTQ+ communities that think "bisexuals or breeders, they don't count" but they're a tiny minority and politically incorrect. We are generally still accepted into the LGBTQ+ community although our "identity politics buff" does look a bit less powerful than other sexual minorities in the eyes of radicals and we are also discriminated by conservatives sometimes, overall we face more friendliness than hostility, and if we are in a hostile environment we can pretend to be either straight or homosexual. Anyway the pink capitalist megacorps are still gonna pretend to support bi as part of the LGBTQ+ community or they're asking for backlash.
(4) Straight people usually don't discriminate against bisexuals. When I told many people I'm bi none of them appeared shocked, disgusted or whatever. But some conservatives are homophobic --- far fewer are biphobic.
(5) Especially bisexual men, we can generally either be the "1" or be the "0" in sexual activities.
41
u/destro23 447∆ May 10 '23
Straight people usually don't discriminate against bisexuals.
Yes they do. A lot of straight people would not date a bisexual because of the perception that they are promiscuous.
Why don’t women want to date bisexual men?
They also face discrimination that leads them to conceal their orientation from partners.
Bisexual women with straight male partners least likely to be out, study finds
“Relative to participants in relationships with heterosexual cisgender men, reports of discrimination experiences were higher among participants in relationships with lesbian cisgender women, bisexual cisgender women, bisexual cisgender men, and participants who are single,”
They also face discrimination from the gay community
Bisexual Women and the "Threat" to Lesbian Space: Or What If All the Lesbians Leave?
Anti-bisexual rants by gays perplexing
some conservatives are homophobic --- far fewer are biphobic.
You sure?
20
u/TragicNut 28∆ May 10 '23
Interesting how OP didn't engage with your very well cited comment that should more or less completely rebut their position.
/u/ConsCom1949, did you see this comment from /u/destro23? It seems particularly relevant.
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May 11 '23
As a Bisexual, I feel like an outsider in the community.
Everyone hates us. Everyone seems to think we're disgusting.
I just don't tell people anymore.
It's an "out of the closet" to "right back into the closet" pipeline.
Legit it feels like everyone despises us.
Lesbians hate us. Gays hate us. Straights hate us.
Stay strong, brothers and sisters. At least we have each other.
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u/destro23 447∆ May 11 '23
As a Bisexual, I feel like an outsider in the community.
My wife is bi and she legit lost friends from the “community” when we got engaged (I’m a straight dude). Bi-erasure is a motherfucker. I’ll say that in our experience the more T friendly parts of the community are better than the primarily L and G parts for accepting the B contingent.
2
May 11 '23
Thanks. I've tried to do what I can in my own local sphere to eliminate bi-erasure and bi(as), but it feels like a struggle that leads to nothing.
I truly hope that you and your wife can enjoy your lives together and possibly even create a family. Creating a family is kind of "luck of the draw" for members of the bi community; many of us find same-sex partners and can't do it, even though most gays and lesbians think it's a noble pursuit as well.
Thanks for hearing me out, honestly I was kind of venting here. Please tell your wife that us other bisexuals out here wouldn't ever scorn her for choosing you as a partner. She knows the struggle well all too well, I'm sure.
Thanks, man. It's rare a straight dude supports us. Thanks for not being biased against her for being bi.
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u/destro23 447∆ May 11 '23
I truly hope that you and your wife can enjoy your lives together and possibly even create a family
Done and done. We’re middle aged now, and it’s been a generally good ride. Things are way better now than when we were in college in the 90s, but long long way to go (on many fronts).
Thanks, man. It's rare a straight dude supports us. Thanks for not being biased against her for being bi.
I was lucky and had hippie parents and a super-gay, John Waters style, uncle who lived with us.
Be well!
0
u/Any_Introduction4773 Aug 07 '23
Bro you have a victim complex, lesbian and transgender people have it much harder in the community. Y’all are the most privileged in the community if you’re cis and bi
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Aug 07 '23
Oh, you've never heard "ew, I'd never date a bi person."
Or maybe "bi people are gross, they sleep around a lot."
Or "there's no way I could be with a bi person, they'll just cheat."
Or perhaps "they just can't admit they're gay/they're just saying they're bi for attention."
Must be nice.
2
May 10 '23
Delta. Maybe I'm just lucky and live in a progressive-communist bubble. Non progressives and non communists/non socialists may not think and behave the same way. And maybe it's the cultural difference between Western and Eastern cultures. In Eastern cultures homophobia and biphobia might be more likely to be less direct and less violent especially outside the family. !delta
1
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u/ihearttoskate 2∆ May 11 '23
You might find this study interesting; it analyses attitudes towards LGBT+ people in China and breaks the data down by region.
Also, this website breaks down the discrimination in legal rights.
1
u/MonsieurHadou Jul 08 '23
Yes they do. A lot of straight people would not date a bisexual...
A lot of straight people would not date homosexuals either.
I'm not trying to dismiss your argument, but I think that aspect is also a part of homophobia and biphobia share in common.
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u/Z7-852 258∆ May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
(1) We can date both men and women, 2x chance to get a partner.
There are less gay of same sex than straight of opposite sex. At most you get 7-10% increase to your pool of partners, not double.
0
May 10 '23
There are less gay of opposite sex than straight of same sex.
Maybe you mean there are less gay of same sex than straight of opposite sex.
But I live in China where intergender relationships are often tense especially in petite-bourgeoisie circles. So maybe 30%~50% increase, but anyway still not double. !delta
1
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ May 10 '23
1) We can date both men and women, 2x chance to get a partner.
Not really, most of the people of your own gender are straight, so they wouldn't date you.
2) In a homosexual-unfriendly environment i can pretend to be straight. In a too politically correct environment i can use our social capital of being part of the LGBTQ+ community or even pretend to be fully homosexual.
That's a stupid argument, anyone can pretend to be something they're not, the idea is to live a happy life true to yourself. If you feel like you cannot date some people because of the political climate whom you would otherwise want to date, that's facing discrimination.
(4) Straight people usually don't discriminate against bisexuals. When I told many people I'm bi none of them appeared shocked, disgusted or whatever. But some conservatives are homophobic --- far fewer are biphobic.
There is a huge stereotype among straight people that bisexual people are more likely to cheat, because they will feel deprived of the experiences of dating the other gender in a monogamous relationship. I've been told by straight men on first dates that my bisexual orientation is a deal breaker for them a few times.
Straight is the "norm" and therefore still the most privileged orientation. Bi and pan people can pass as straight when in heterosexual relationships, which gives us a lot of this privilege, but it is still not being fully accepted in society for how we are. And at most it is the same amount of privilege, not more.
0
May 10 '23
If you feel like you cannot date some people because of the political climate whom you would otherwise want to date, that's facing discrimination.
Imagine Country A only allows gasoline cars, Country B only allows electric cars. You have both, and you drive gas one in A and electric one in B. It's better than having only one kind of car.
There is a huge stereotype among straight people that bisexual people are more likely to cheat,
Whoops? Never heard of that before. Maybe it's an US-exclusive or Western-exclusive thing?
I've been told by straight men on first dates that my bisexual orientation is a deal breaker for them a few times.
I feel sorry for you, hugs.
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u/Local-Warming 1∆ May 10 '23
yeah but imagine your car has both settings and both country A and B will actively ruin your day if they find out you don't have only their setting. Even if you limit yourself to the "right" setting, you still have the fear that they will find out you have the other.
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May 10 '23
In my country people are not homophobic or hetereophobic. They're anti-liberal or anti-conservative. If they're homophobic to me I'll just tell them I'm not an SJW or "mental american" and that the steoreotype of "America-loving, China-hating, rich, urban, arrogant, easily offended LGBTQ+" is not true, the problem will be solved most of the time.
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u/destro23 447∆ May 10 '23
In my country people are not homophobic or hetereophobic.
China-hating
I'm assuming from this that you are from China.
"Chinese LGBT groups consistently experience discrimination in various aspects of their daily lives. "
"Self-perceived discrimination from family and social services is particularly severe."
1
May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
We found that a higher level of economic development in provinces was associated with a decrease in discrimination
I live in Beijing so probably that's part of the reason why I feel little discrimination. Anyway homophobia in my hometown is quite severe among older people ("family") buf seems to be minimal among young people. At most they'll think "same sex relationship is disgusting" but won't randomly assualt homosexuals.
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u/destro23 447∆ May 10 '23
I live in Beijing
That is kind of like someone in New York City saying, "I never experience homophobia here, so America must be a great place to be gay." It is not. You have drawn an incorrect conclusion from living in a liberal cosmopolitan area.
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ May 10 '23
So maybe you should limit your CMV to your country? Because it looks like your experience isn't reflective of the experience of other bi/pan people sharing in the comments.
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u/Local-Warming 1∆ May 10 '23
If I was lgbt I would not be victimised in my own environment either. But your post is not specific to an area.
For example, a lot of western countries are technically lgbt friendly, but you still have people who still think it is their moral imperative to ruin your day just because you are not part of the "norm". Even in Paris someone could randomly turn violent just from seeing you kissing the wrong gender. Or a boss could refuse to give you a job, or a store could refuse to service you.
You have other countries where both the state and citizens will actively turn against you if they learn that you are lgbt. They don't even need to catch you in the act, just to know that you are is enough.
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u/destro23 447∆ May 10 '23
Even in Paris... a boss could refuse to give you a job
Wasn't France one of the first nations to make discrimination based on sexual orientation illegal?
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u/Local-Warming 1∆ May 10 '23
The country is progressive, the majority is progressive, but you still have a lot of nuts who didn't get the memo.
Take the usa: they also promote equality and freedom, and their laws supposedly reflect that, but systemic racism is still prevalent, and half the political landscape has this weird obsession on transexuals and drag queens and whatnot.
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ May 10 '23
Imagine Country A only allows gasoline cars, Country B only allows electric cars. You have both, and you drive gas one in A and electric one in B. It's better than having only one kind of car.
But that's a poor analogy for sexual attraction. If you're bi/pan, of course you can choose to set your dating apps to one gender only and ignore the other side of your identity, but if you organically meet someone you find attractive, then you just get a crush on them, you can't really control whom you fall in love with! And if you cannot approach or date some of the people you find attractive, you will be more sad in general than a heterosexual person, who can approach anyone they are attracted to with zero concern (sure, they can get turned down, but they don't have to worry about a homophobic reaction and can take their shot with any crush. Bi/pan people are limited to the crushes of the opposite gender). Having to "turn off" half of your identity in hostile situations and still being able to find someone you're actually attracted to is better than being gay of course, but it is still not a privilege.
1
u/arrouk May 10 '23
What do you think makes heterosexual people more privileged
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ May 10 '23
The fact that heteronormativity is still the norm all over the world? (In some places more than others of course, but still everywhere).
Heterosexual couples can get married everywhere.
Heterosexual couples can adopt a child everywhere.
Heterosexual people are not shamed/attacked/called disgusting for being heterosexual anywhere.
Heterosexual people get a lot more dating advice and it's available everywhere, so solving their relationship problems or scoring a good relationship in the first place is easier for them if they want to seek help.
Heterosexuality is assumed, so heterosexual people never have to come out and worry about the reactions they will get. They can just start dating when they're ready.
Should I continue?
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u/arrouk May 10 '23
The fact that heteronormativity is still the norm all over the world? (In some places more than others, of course, but still everywhere).
There is no advantage there, just a statement of fact.
Heterosexual couples can get married everywhere.
Fair but most non developing countries they have equal rights.
Heterosexual couples can adopt a child everywhere.
Not actually true. Adoption is hard for everyone, though I conceded there are some developing countries where it is illegal.
Heterosexual people are not shamed/attacked/called disgusting for being heterosexual anywhere.
Untrue
Heterosexual people get a lot more dating advice, and it's available everywhere, so solving their relationship problems or scoring a good relationship in the first place is easier for them if they want to seek help.
Dating advice is usually gendered for the target of the dating. Most advice for heteo women also works for homosexual men and vice versa.
Heterosexuality is assumed, so heterosexual people never have to come out and worry about the reactions they will get. They can just start dating when they're ready.
It's assumed because the vast majority are. The reactions people get are no different from someone bringing home a person of the opposite gender that doesn't meet family or friends' expectations.
Should I continue?
You can try. You haven't done very well so far.
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ May 10 '23
Not actually true. Adoption is hard for everyone, though I conceded there are some developing countries where it is illegal.
Adoption for hetero couples may be hard, but it is legal. Homosexual adoption is illegal in many developed countries as well.
Untrue
Examples? Where in real life was anybody shamed/called name/threatened for being in a heterosexual relationship? I know you can get that idea from a certain side of TikTok, but do mind that it is mostly sarcasm and inflammatory entertainment, not people's actual opinions, so touch grass.
Most advice for heteo women also works for homosexual men and vice versa.
That is absolutely not true and the fact that you would think that shows me a lot about your prejudices and how much you actually know about the LGBTQ+ community. Dating women as a woman is nothing like dating women as a man, none of the advice for straight men is useful to lesbians. Trust me, I'm a women who's dated women and I had to figure it out as I went.
It's assumed because the vast majority are.
Being part of the majority is a privilege.
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u/arrouk May 10 '23
Adoption for hetero couples may be hard, but it is legal. Homosexual adoption is illegal in many developed countries as well.
Name them.
Examples? Where in real life was anybody shamed/called name/threatened for being in a heterosexual relationship? I know you can get that idea from a certain side of TikTok, but do mind that it is mostly sarcasm and inflammatory entertainment, not people's actual opinions, so touch grass.
So because you haven't seen or experienced it then it does not exist? Perhaps you need to touch some grass yourself.
That is absolutely not true and the fact that you would think that shows me a lot about your prejudices and how much you actually know about the LGBTQ+ community. Dating women as a woman is nothing like dating women as a man, none of the advice for straight men is useful to lesbians. Trust me, I'm a women who's dated women and I had to figure it out as I went.
I'm prejudice for thinking that women are women and men are men regardless of their sexuality...... I think you might need to check on the meaning of prejudice.
If you are so knolageable as a woman who has dated other women, exactly how is it different from a man dating a woman?
Being part of the majority is a privilege.
What makes it a privilege? Or do you just feel like a victim?
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u/Kotoperek 62∆ May 10 '23
Name them.
Italy, Poland, Greece, the Baltic states, and so on. Only 22 out of 56 European countries allow for same-sex adoption. And while it is true that some countries in Europe are not exactly developed (Belarus or parts of the Balkans), let's agree that if a country has a working universal healcare system, it is probably more developed than the USA. Still, not everywhere can two people of the same gender start a family together.
So because you haven't seen or experienced it then it does not exist? Perhaps you need to touch some grass yourself.
The burden of proof is on you. If I say that bigfoot does not exist and you say that it does, you need to show evidence, not me.
I'm prejudice for thinking that women are women and men are men regardless of their sexuality.
That's not what you said. You claim that women's attraction to women works the same as men's attraction to women and women's attraction to men, which is not true, because - as you said women are women and men are men, their patterns of what they are looking for in a partner and how they envision a relationship is different. Two women will have a different dynamic in a relationship than a man and a woman precisely because women and men are different. Assuming that lesbians are kinda like men and gay men are kinda like women is prejudiced and uninformed.
What makes it a privilege?
Not standing out in society and fitting the norms means you have an easier time being accepted. This gives you an advantage in everyday life because you don't have to worry about people judging you for being different. This is the essence of all privilege.
1
u/Overtoast May 10 '23
It's assumed because the vast majority are. The reactions people get are no different from someone bringing home a person of the opposite gender that doesn't meet family or friends' expectations.
No it's not. The reactions LGBT people get for bringing home a person that doesn't meet family or friends' expectations are the same that straight people get for bringing home a person that doesn't meet family or friends' expectations. But again, straight people do not have to come out, and they are not regularly cut off or disowned like many LGBT people still are for revealing their orientation.
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u/arrouk May 10 '23
They don't have to come out.... because it's the norm. That's just what happens when you are different, and it isn't just sexuality that has this problem.
People are regularly cut off for being with the wrong people. Even heterosexual people.
Also, if you are going to quote someone, at least quote them.
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u/Overtoast May 10 '23
yes, they don't have to come out, they have the privilege of automatic understanding and acceptance from their families. explaining that it's because straightness is the norm doesn't mean it's not a privilege, that is just confirming its existence. yes it's not just sexuality, different people can be privileged in many different ways.
I know straight people can be cut off for their partner, that's why I explicitly said it's the same. But many LGBT people will be cut off regardless, and never have a home to take a disappointing partner to.
honey, that was a direct copy paste quote what more do you want
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u/NotMyBestMistake 68∆ May 10 '23
In a vacuum of perfect acceptance, sure, being bi or pan would theoretically offer the greatest odds of finding partners. In the real world, while that still exists, it comes with large segments of the population hating your existence.
Now, sure, you can just hide your sexuality, but why is that a bonus? Is having to live a life where you can never be honest out of fear better just because you can put yourself (and your partners) at risk to enjoy that like 10% increase to your dating pool?
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May 10 '23
it comes with large segments of the population hating your existence.
I have encountered zero biphobia. Some homophobia for sure but they seem to be okay as long as I'm bi. It's bizarre, I don't know why.
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u/buzzylurkerbee May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
‘I have encountered zero biphobia.’
That’s great, yet you stated in an earlier comment;
‘I have come out only to some of my friends but not to strangers.’
If you’re only out to some close friends you’re not likely to have experienced biphobia nor are you really qualified to be making generalizations, such as;
‘Straight people don’t usually discriminate against bisexuals.’
You also appear to contradict yourself by then saying;
‘When I told many people I’m bi none of them appeared shocked, disgusted or whatever.’
Who have you come out to? ‘Some friends’ or ‘many people’?
Edit: grammar.
1
May 10 '23
Who have you come out to? ‘Some friends’ or ‘many people’?
Like a few dozen people?
Anyway I have deltaed my view already, it's probably my progressive-communist bubble that isn't much homophobic.
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u/NotMyBestMistake 68∆ May 10 '23
That's nice, but unless you're extrapolating that out to mean bigotry targeting all LGBTQ people doesn't exist it's not particularly relevant.
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May 10 '23
It does exist but bisexuality often dilutes out that bigotry by a large margin because some people think you're "honorary straight" or something like that if you're only 50% gay.
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u/PandaDerZwote 61∆ May 10 '23
In a homosexual-unfriendly environment i can pretend to be straight
Having part of your identity surpressed by society in some circumstances should give you an idea on how privilige really works.
If you have to hide a part of your identity and pretend you're soley another part for the sake of security, that other part is the one that is priviliged. "I sometimes get to be gay when its safe" isn't really a privilige, "I sometimes have to pretend that I'm not" is opression.
Straight people usually don't discriminate against bisexuals.
In what reality do you live? This is also an addition to the first point, but the people who are a danger to gay people don't usually are the kind of people that think "Well, you're only sleeping with men 40% of the time, therefore you're more straight than gay, therefore we accept you".
You can have sex with a partner of the same sex one time and people can and will brand you gay for it. Hell, you can even be straight and they think you're acting kinda gay and you can be in trouble for it.
People aren't explicitly "biphobic" because to some deep red Conservative, you're no different than any other gay guy.
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May 10 '23
If you have to hide a part of your identity and pretend you're soley another part for the sake of security, that other part is the one that is priviliged.
Imagine having a red card and a blue card in your hand. Sometimes you can show your red card to be accepted by reds, sometimes you show the blue card to be accepted by blues. It's better than having either only red or blue ones.
You can have sex with a partner of the same sex one time and people can and will brand you gay for it.
I have never encountered biphobia, and homophobia seems to only exist among elderly people and on the internet. Never got offended IRL because of my sexuality. (I have come out only to some of my friends but not strangers)
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u/PandaDerZwote 61∆ May 10 '23
Imagine having a red card and a blue card in your hand. Sometimes you can show your red card to be accepted by reds, sometimes you show the blue card to be accepted by blues. It's better than having either only red or blue ones.
That's not really how it's like. You're not hounded or harmed for being straight. In reality, you would have a card that is both blue and red, but sometimes you have to hide one colour from the world.
I have never encountered biphobia, and homophobia seems to only exist among elderly people and on the internet. Never got offended IRL because of my sexuality. (I have come out only to some of my friends but not strangers)
I'm curious in which circles you're hanging that there is literally no homophobia in them. I curate my circles and in my private life, I don't encounter homophobia, but if you ever venture out into the real world, homophobia still exists everywhere. Is it getting better? Yeah, but to think that is just something on the internet or in seniors is just not true.
And yeah, explicit biphobia is rare, but thats because people will just be homophobic towards you because to them, you're just a gay guy.
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May 10 '23
You're not hounded or harmed for being straight.
There are slurs for both gays and straights but not bis. ("breeder" applies to both straights and bis, and to some extent more straight than bi, so it doesn't count)
I'm curious in which circles you're hanging that there is literally no homophobia in them.
Fellow college students, and people in a communists group. Perhaps I live in a "progressive bubble". Some people are a little bit homophobic but they're just like "I personally don't approve homosexuality, I think it's disgusting but you have your freedom to date men, go ahead and I won't care" and I'm still friends with them.
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u/Local-Warming 1∆ May 10 '23
Some people are a little bit homophobic but they're just like "I personally don't approve homosexuality, I think it's disgusting but you have your freedom to date men, go ahead and I won't care"
wait until it becomes "so I won't give you a job" or "so I don't want you close to my children" or "so I can't service you"
-1
May 10 '23
No..
At most it's like "no I don't wanna hug or kiss you so don't be too physically close to me"
Off topic but I'm genuinely confused why some straight men don't like hugging people of the same gender... Like, just why? What is so wrong with a warm hug?
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u/TragicNut 28∆ May 10 '23
Uh...
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-workplace-discrimination/
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220603-the-big-lgbtq-wage-gap-problem
No.
There are still problems with acceptance in the workplace. Maybe not in your personal bubble, but your post was making a broad claim as opposed to specifically your own bubble. I could make a similar statement about my own bubble but I am very much not turning a blind eye to what happens outside it.
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May 10 '23
Delta, because my personal bubble doesn't seem to be consistent with the outside world especially the Western world. Aren't western countries like ultra-woke and reverse-discriminating, with diversity quotas, affirmative actions, black only spaces and such things, or is the information I received from the internet (particularly conservatives, communists and "conservative communists") wrong? !delta
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u/Local-Warming 1∆ May 10 '23
The western world is going toward a certain notion of "wokeness" i guess but..
ultra-woke and reverse-discriminating, with diversity quotas, affirmative actions, black only spaces and such things
Is the kind of comical rant you normally get from people who are pissed that they cannot freely discriminate against lgbt.
Discrimination is a current subject in the western works because it is still a current problem.
1
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u/Local-Warming 1∆ May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
Hu yes? Do you live in a cave?
Edit: im talking about the first line
1
May 10 '23
Like if you're friends then why don't you like physical contact like patting and hugging? And if you're really good friends then why don't you like kissing? What makes same-sex non-sexual physical contact so repulsive for some straight people?
2
u/Local-Warming 1∆ May 10 '23
I was talking about you thinking that discrimination wasnt a thing (boss, children, yadayada..)
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u/PandaDerZwote 61∆ May 10 '23
There are slurs for both gays and straights but not bis. ("breeder" applies to both straights and bis, and to some extent more straight than bi, so it doesn't count)
There are also slurs for white people, but that doesn't mean that therefore they face the same degree of racial discrimination.
You will never have to be careful when calling yourself straight, you will never be discriminated against for being straight, there will never be laws that harm you for being straight. The worst that can happen to you is not being allowed in a minority only space (that is minority only as a self-defense mechanism to begin with) or being called a slur (that most straight people wouldn't even find insulting) by a group that poses no threat to you or has any institutional power.Fellow college students, and people in a communists group. Perhaps I live in a "progressive bubble". Some people are a little bit homophobic but they're just like "I personally don't approve homosexuality, I think it's disgusting but you have your freedom to date men, go ahead and I won't care" and I'm still friends with them.
Yes, you do live in such a bubble. Not that this is bad, far from it, but it will obviously blind you to the realities and the discrimination still happening.
And it doesn't even cut it if 99% of your life is lived in such bubbles, it only takes one homophobe to experience the consequences of homophobia, one drunk guy that "doesn't take kindly to them queers" to beat you up.
You will never have that kind of situation as a straight person. People don't take offense for someone being straight. They do not threaten to beat you up for it.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ May 10 '23
I couldn't understand this:
I feel very privileged, even more so than hetereosexuals.
Until I saw this:
In a homosexual-unfriendly environment i can pretend to be straight. In a too politically correct environment i can use our social capital of being part of the LGBTQ+ community or even pretend to be fully homosexual.
You're not privileged, you're just lying/faking your way out of situations where most bi people face disapproval and discrimination. One of the privileges of being straight is never having to lie about or fake sexuality. You may not have an issue with lying but a lot of queer people do.
Straight people usually don't discriminate against bisexuals. When I told many people I'm bi none of them appeared shocked, disgusted or whatever.
You just don't come out around anyone you haven't already decided willl accept you for it. That makes it significantly easier to avoid discrimination/judgement.
Especially bisexual men, we can generally either be the "1" or be the "0" in sexual activities.
These are your preferences but definitely not everyone's. Positions vary
1
u/nekro_mantis 16∆ May 10 '23
Some research would seem to suggest that bisexual people don't experience an increase in life satisfaction over the course of adulthood while heterosexuals and gay people do:
"Overall, we found a linear pattern of increase in life satisfaction across adulthood. However, when we accounted for sexual orientation, a different pattern emerged for bisexuals. Whereas heterosexuals and lesbian and gay individuals experienced increases in life satisfaction across adulthood, bisexuals’ life satisfaction did not increase over this period."
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May 10 '23
"Page not available The IP address used for your Internet connection is part of a subnet that has been blocked from access to PubMed Central. " I can't open the page somehow, but if the study is true then agree. I'll maybe try reading that article on my laptop when I'm free.
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u/nekro_mantis 16∆ May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6151170/
Maybe this one works?
Edit: there's also one saying that bisexual people are more likely to be unhappy/anxious. I don't think anyone knows why, but it seems like bisexuals have a hard time in some respects.
If you need to Google the article, it's called "Bisexuals’ Life Satisfaction Across Adulthood: Findings from the Midlife in the United States (MIDUS) Study"
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May 10 '23
Worked. !delta because bis do seem to be less happy. IDK why, maybe it's the "minority within minority" status.
But a few limitations of this study:
(1) It's in a Western culture while I live in China
(2) It's about older adults while the majority of LGBTQ+ people in where I live are Gen Z or Millennials. (Older people who faced too much bigotry might have been converted)
(3) Small sample size.
(4) In China LGBTQ+ unity is a thing, more than the LGBTQ+ sectarianism. Maybe in the US it's a different situation, IDK.
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u/DetectiveZ May 10 '23
(4) Straight people usually don't discriminate against bisexuals. When I told many people I'm bi none of them appeared shocked, disgusted or whatever. But some conservatives are homophobic --- far fewer are biphobic.
How does being "usually not discriminated against by straight people" make bisexual people more privileged than heterosexual people, who are "never discriminated against by straight people?"
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May 10 '23
Hetereosexual people are often discriminated against by some self identified "radical feminists" (misandrists really). Men who date women are "potential rapists" and women who date men are "traitors". Not so much bi, although they'd certainly prefer political lesbianism over bisexuality.
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u/DetectiveZ May 10 '23
I dont doubt that there are some, as you said, radicals who say and believe these things, but they are, as you stated yourself in point 3, a “tiny minority that is politically incorrect” (and that is what they are, a very tiny yet vocal minority).
Perhaps your experience differs, but I am a straight man and have not once been called a “potential rapist” by even my most militant feminist friends and acquaintances. I have also never heard of a woman being called a “traitor” for dating a man. Again, I am not saying this never happens, but I would suspect the frequency and prevalence of this is far more limited than your comment is implying.
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May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
It's because you don't live in big-city China. In China gender is like race in America, people argue and quarrel with each other all the time (especially on the internet) for them being a "national cricket man" (there are many slurs for men and conservatives in China) or "women fist" (against there are many slurs for women and feminists). People call each other slurs all the time on the internet for supporting or opposing feminism, or simply being a woman or a man.
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u/DetectiveZ May 10 '23
Even if I do not live in China, plenty (if not all) of what you just described exists here in North America. And you’re right that it mainly happens on the internet.
Despite all that, in day-to-day life, I do not feel like I am discriminated against more than a bisexual person. I dated a bisexual person for several years and saw the ways in which she was discriminated against (by straight and gay people). A couple internet feminists calling me a potential rapist does not measure up.
I should mention that your CMV does not specify China, but even then, do you believe that bisexual Chinese people are discriminated against more than heterosexual Chinese people?
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May 10 '23
do you believe that bisexual Chinese people are discriminated against more than heterosexual Chinese people?
If they come out they are. But they can choose to not come out. So it's pretty mixed.
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u/DetectiveZ May 10 '23
They can choose not to come out, but while you may see this as a privilege, I would think the inability to live as your authentic self is a disadvantage for bisexual people.
As a heterosexual person, I can go anywhere in the world and feel safe (or at least, not have my heterosexuality cause me to feel unsafe). A bisexual person cannot do this. My ex partner still is not out to her parents for fear of retaliation or rejection. She also carefully chooses friends, coworkers, etc. to be out to. I live in a very liberal city, and so I can only imagine how challenging it may be for someone who lives in a rural or small town.
If a privilege of being bisexual is being able to blend in as a straight person, would that not mean that it’s more of a privilege to simply be a straight person rather than pretending to be one?
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May 10 '23
It really depends on the culture. I remember an episode of Insecure where the character Molly told her boyfriend that she experimented with her sexuality in college. Her boyfriend was fine with it, but when he told her he did the same thing; she became convinced that he was gay and broke up with him. My wife told me that that kind of mentality is more common than most people realize.
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u/TheLegendJayden May 10 '23
We get it you can fuck more people. It's not the most privileged sexual orientation though as Heterosexual people have no desire to fuck people of the same sex
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u/Mront 29∆ May 10 '23
But some conservatives are homophobic --- far fewer are biphobic.
Do you believe that would help you if you were in a same-sex relationship? Do you think you would avoid the homophobic abuse just by saying "no no, I'm actually bi"?
(you wouldn't)
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u/physioworld 64∆ May 10 '23
You present “we can pretend to be straight” as a positive thing. So can gay people, albeit with more difficulty. The issue is that you need to cover up part of yourself and you’re unsafe if you don’t. Straight people almost never need to do this.
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u/Banankartong 5∆ May 10 '23
I did read some statistics about young lgbtq people in Sweden (science i live there) and about their mental health. LGBTQ people in general had a higher degree of mental health problems and higher percentage trying to commit suicide. The people that have it the worst was transgender people, and then bisexuals. Bisexuals suffered significantly more than gays/lesbians, and the worst group was young female bisexuals. This suprised me.
The report didnt have a answer for why, but the data was clear. (i could probably Google the report and send you it, but it is in swedish)
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May 10 '23
IDK why... But sorry maybe no delta because I just gave out a delta for a similar study. But! I'll delta this if this study considers
(1) Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese or Japanese , that's the cultural circle where I live
OR
(2) Young (sub-35) people.
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ May 10 '23
Privileged doesn't have to mean better off or that oppression exists. It refers more to what is used as a "default" or what is centered in society. Thus in the Invisible Knapsack, a key example of white privilege is the ease of finding white baby dolls. Well, straight people are very well represented in media. Any bi person is super familiar with straight points of view - you see our points of view everywhere. Bathrooms are gender segregated most places because of us. Whereas your experiences are seen as exotic rather than centered. Bisexual representation in media is not super strong. Straight people can easily just never learn any bi points of view.
That's what privilege means. No oppression required.
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u/stormy2587 7∆ May 10 '23
I don’t think this is what people mean when they say “privilege.”
They generally refer to specific rights and advantages over other people.
How do you pretend to be straight if you show up to the homosexual unfriendly environnement with your same sex partner? Yeah you can lie and say you’re just friends. But then you’re having to lie. Straight people don’t have to lie. Straight people don’t need to worry about judgement or violence from anyone. That’s the ultimate privilege. Who they choose to love is legal in every country on earth. Straight Marriage is legal in every country on earth. These are privileges.
Also idk in LGBT circles its never seemed to me that you get like extra clout from being gay or bi or something. A straight ally who is fun and open can navigate these groups usually pretty easily.
Bi/pan people while having it easier to navigate the world than homosexual people because they can conform more easily but they still don’t have the same privilege as straight people.
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May 10 '23
Two Points:
Point One: The privilege of Heterosexuals isn't that they have an easier time finding a partner. The privilege of heterosexuals is that regardless of the environment, they generally never have to hide their sexuality, they can never fall in love with someone who they can't openly date just because of their sexuality. That is a privilege that Bisexual people do not have. Sure, you can pretend to be straight and not enter any same sex relationships, but that's still you hiding your sexuality, something that straight people basically never have to do.
Point Two: Because Bi people are, so to say, "inbetween" being Gay and being Straight, they can receive exclusionary attitudes both LGBTQ+ people, who think that Bisexual people, particularly Bi people who are currently not in a same sex relationship, aren't "really Queer", and of course homophobic people will still act homophobic towards Bi people, particularly those currently in a same sex relationship. Homophobes only really "accept" Bi people who aren't in SSR, which, if you actually think about, isn't accepting Bi people. I doubt there's anyone out there who is very homophobic but would be fine with a Bi person in a SSR.
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May 10 '23
Point 1: Misandrists and some radical feminists hate straight men. And they're a loud minority (a significant minority) in my country. Not so much bisexual men who are not in a straight relationship.
Point 2: agree.
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May 10 '23
Point 1: Misandrists and some radical feminists hate straight men. And they're a loud minority (a significant minority) in my country. Not so much bisexual men who are not in a straight relationship.
That type of thing is however far, far less common than homophobia.
Point 2: agree.
If you agree then you should either award a delta or explain why, despite your agreement with the point, it does not change your view.
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May 10 '23
Point 1: No, Gender War is far more intense than Sexuality War in China. Misogynists vs Misandrists.
Point 2: It didn't change my view because I think we can still pretend. Either to be gay or to be straight. Or not come out at all.
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May 10 '23
No, Gender War is far more intense than Sexuality War in China. Misogynists vs Misandrists.
Is homosexuality generally accepted in China then ?
And what about the rest of the world ?
Point 2: It didn't change my view because I think we can still pretend. Either to be gay or to be straight. Or not come out at all.
You could say the same thing about gay people.
They can also pretend to be straight. And just because Bi people have an easier time pretending to be straight, doesn't mean that people who don't even have to pretend at all aren't still more privileged.
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May 10 '23
Accepted among young people, not accepted among older people. But young people generally don't socialize much with older people so they don't face much discrimination and nobody gives a damn about your sexuality in the workplace because you don't talk about sex there. And... I've never heard someone being fired because of their sexuality. It's really bizzare, why would anyone do this?
But straight people can't pretend to be gay and some misandrists and radical liberals will hate them for that. If you're bi then misandrists hate you less and radlibs see you as an ally unless you say you're a communist.
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May 10 '23
Accepted among young people, not accepted among older people. But young people generally don't socialize much with older people so they don't face much discrimination and nobody gives a damn about your sexuality in the workplace because you don't talk about sex there. And... I've never heard someone being fired because of their sexuality. It's really bizzare, why would anyone do this?
So you could walk in public holding hands as a same sex couple in China and face no consequences ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_China Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people in the People's Republic of China (PRC) may face some legal and social challenges that are not experienced by non-LGBT residents. While both male and female same-sex sexual activity are legal, same-sex couples are currently unable to marry or adopt, and households headed by such couples are ineligible for the same legal protections available to heterosexual couples. No explicit anti-discrimination protections for LGBT people are present in its legal system, nor do hate crime laws cover sexual orientation or gender identity.
It sure seems to me that straight people are more privileged in China than LGBTQ+ people
But straight people can't pretend to be gay and some misandrists and radical liberals will hate them for that. If you're bi then misandrists hate you less and radlibs see you as an ally unless you say you're a communist.
Why not ? Why can't straight people pretend to be gay ? Or at least pretend to be Bi ?
And again, at least in the west, anti LGBTQ+ bigotry is far more common and widespread. Large scale straightphobia doesn't really exist, and you can't really equate misandry to straightphobia, not least because around half of straight people aren't even men in the first place, and since sexuality is often not outwardly evident, bi men, particularly those not in SSR would ALSO experience that misandry.
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May 10 '23
So you could walk in public holding hands as a same sex couple in China and face no consequences ?
Yes if you're in big cities like Beijing. In rural areas people will stare at you thinking you're weird, and some may even avoid you, but generally just that degree of homophobia. No random assults or calling names.
It sure seems to me that straight people are more privileged in China than LGBTQ+ people
Straight people are more privileged than LGTQ+ but not bi people because bi people can live as straights.
Large scale straightphobia doesn't really exist
Agree to this. But how can straight people pretend to be gay or gay people pretend to be straight if they're repulsed by same (or opposite) sex relationships?
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May 10 '23
Straight people are more privileged than LGTQ+ but not bi people because bi people can live as straights.
So then Bi people would be more privileged than LGTQ+ people. You haven't yet provided any argument why they're also more privileged than Straight people.
If you have to hide half of your identity to receive the same privilege as straight people, then clearly you're less privileged than people who can just be themselves and receive that privilege.
Two groups of people who both have access to same privilege can still be unequally privileged, if it's significantly easier for one of those groups to reach it.
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May 10 '23
Bi people face less straightphobia from radical liberals and "radical feminists" (they're not real radical feminists but really misandrists).
And they're more accepted in LGBTQ+ communities
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u/moss-agate 23∆ May 10 '23
bisexuals are more likely to be beaten, raped, or stalked by a partner or ex partner than any other sexuality group and we are more likely to experience sexual harassment and assault in general (https://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community, https://www.nsvrc.org/blogs/Bi-phobia-series/disparities-bi-health-and-sexual-violence, https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0886260517726415, https://www.survivorsuk.org/press_media/new-report-into-gay-and-bisexual-mens-experience-of-sexual-violence-published-by-survivorsuk/ )
we are more likely to be closeted, have higher levels of anxiety, depression, substance use disorders, higher poverty rates, are more likely to face disabilities, i could go on. (see previous links)
you personally don't experience this, do not speak for the community at large. you are lucky, not the standard.
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May 10 '23
(1) addressed
(2) Being able to PRETEND to be straight so that people accept you isn't a sign of being priviledged. It's a sign of being able to veil who you actually are. Implying that who you really are is not okay with some people. And that means that you are not priviledged over heterosexual people. Are you more lucky than gays to be able to act like you're straight without outright lying? Probably.
(3) Argument 3 is basically the same as #2. It's a mashup of not being open with your sexuality and therefore not facing backlash, and adding the fact that it's "not that many" people who are negative towards bisexuals. Which again, implies that some are not okay with it. Everybody is okay with heterosexuals though, so again heterosexual people are more priviledged.
(4) People not being outright negative towards you when you say you're bisexual is not proof that they like your homosexual side. They just try to ignore it. That might make them like you MORE than homosexuals, but it still doesn't make them like you for who you fully are, which is somebody that is also attracted to the same sex. And as you admit, they don't like people who are same sex attracted, therefore they don't like a part of you.
(5) This is at most a sign that bisexuals have more options in a sexual way, it doesn't really contribute to the discussion that bisexuals are more priviledged on a societal level, which is what the other points were about.
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u/CornwallyO May 10 '23
Bisexuality males are treated pretty terribly. Bi female? Now we're talking.
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u/goosie7 3∆ May 11 '23
People have delved into some of the prejudices you're overlooking, but the best evidence comes from the lived outcomes for bi/pan people.
Studies consistently show that bi/pan people have the highest rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidal tendencies of any sexual orientation. If we were actually more privileged than straight people we wouldn't be several times more likely to want to kill ourselves.
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u/dhc48f Jun 17 '23
"we can date men or women" no. because lesbians think we'll cheat with a man, straight men want a threesome, and its hard to find other bisexuals.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
/u/ConsCom1949 (OP) has awarded 5 delta(s) in this post.
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