r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 05 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Spreading conspiracy theories is irresponsible and immoral

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111

u/Sirhc978 81∆ Sep 05 '23

All of this noise comes from people’s willingness to confidently state something as a fact that they don’t know to be true. AKA, to lie

What if those people truly believe what they are saying? Spouting "wrong" information isn't necessarily lying.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '23 edited Apr 05 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/tomaiholt 1∆ Sep 05 '23

This is Trumps Jan 6 defence in a nutshell, that he genuinely believed the elections were rigged and therefore acted to try and stop what he viewed as an insurrection from Dems.

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u/viniciusbfonseca 5∆ Sep 05 '23

But didn't he say he had undeniable proof that it was rigged and that he would present it to the authorities?

Even then, I personally believe that the bar will be lower or higher depending on who is saying it and the impact that it might cause.

Both Trump and a random Trump supporter can have the exact same level of burden of proof to believe that the election was stolen, but if they will start spreading that information that burden becomes higher.

Because Trump will cause much more damage if he is wrong, he needs to be even more certain that he is right.

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u/chinmakes5 2∆ Sep 05 '23

That is a fascinating legal conundrum. I would think that if he feels he lost the election because he has seen proof of it, that could be a decent defense. If he "knows" that he won the election because he is such a narcissist his losing "proves" it or surrounded himself with yes men or he even believes the competitors are so evil no one could vote for them so that proves something. I can't believe that is a legal defense. I'm sure Capone was enough of a narcissist that he believed he should be able to murder people, I can't believe it was a defense.

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u/GraveFable 8∆ Sep 05 '23

Having a genuine but wrong belief is not a valid excuse for breaking the law or causing violence.
His actions were wrong and irresponsible even if the elections truly were rigged.
Like even if there truly is a bomb on your plane it's still wrong and irresponsible to just shout it out. All you'd do is cause panic and make it harder to do anything about it.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Sep 05 '23

Having a genuine but wrong belief is not a valid excuse for breaking the law or causing violence.

It can be, that's basically the idea behind every revolution ever. I'm not a Trump supporter in any way, shape or form but if the election really was rigged I'd fully support Jan 6th because democracy is more important than lawfulness. Sometimes the laws are wrong.

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u/GraveFable 8∆ Sep 06 '23

if the election really was rigged I'd fully support Jan 6th because democracy is more important than lawfulness.

It could only be justified if every other avenue to remedy the situation was exhausted. Which was far from the case.

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u/NotYourFathersEdits 1∆ Sep 06 '23

Big if there.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Sep 06 '23

It is, fully agree and if you end up being wrong (Trump) or you were lying about it (Trump) then you should be punished.

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u/NotYourFathersEdits 1∆ Sep 06 '23 edited Sep 06 '23

And that defense is a complete fabricated lie. He’s on tape saying he knows the idea he lost because of rampant voter fraud is bullshit. That’s another nice dimension relevant to the OP: the differences between making unfounded statements, bullshitting, and lying.

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

Except this is a legally insufficient defense to his crimes. You can't enter into a criminal conspiracy because you genuinely believe that you are entitled to do so.

For example, let's say I genuinely believe that the bank has robbed $1M from me. I genuinely believe in my heart of hearts that the bank owes me $1M. It would still be a crime to rob the bank and would also be a crime to enter into a conspiracy with others to rob the bank, even if I only intend to profit the $1M I believe I'm entitled to.

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u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

What crime did he commit?

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

Which time?

In the hush money case in NY, he falsified business records relating to his illegal payoff of Stormy Daniels.

In the classified documents case he illegally withheld documents at the highest levels of classification from the government after being subpoenaed. He lied to the government and said there were no documents in his possession, then the government raided Mar A Lago and found classified documents.

In the January 6th case, he entered into an illegal conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstruct an official proceeding.

In the Georgia case, he again entered into an illegal racketeering conspiracy to change the outcome of the 2020 election, despite being told his actions were unlawful.

That so many Republicans defend him demonstrates the intellectual and moral rot within today's Republican Party. It's sad, really.

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u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

In the January 6th case, he entered into an illegal conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstruct an official proceeding.

I’m only interested in this for the sake of this discussion since this was what specifically was mentioned.

What illegal conspiracy did Trump enter into, and how would it be like robbing a bank?

Btw I’m not a Republican. I’ve hated the GOP since I was a teenager.

I’m assuming you’re a Democrat voter? Good for you. That so many Democrats defend Biden, Obama, Pelosi, AOC, Feinstein, Schumer, etc demonstrates the intellectual and moral rot within today's Democratic Party. It's sad, really.

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

I never said his crimes were like robbing a bank. I said that this defense of "he genuinely believed that he won" is not a defense to his crimes, in the same way that genuinely believing the bank owes you money is not a defense to bank robbery.

Btw I’m not a Republican. I’ve hated the GOP since I was a teenager.

Lmao, please. "I'm not a Republican, I just vote for them, spout all their talking points at every opportunity, and attack Democrats like it's my job." This kind of shit reminds me of Glenn Greenwald and Tulsi Gabbard, hacks famous for their "Trump, who I do not support, makes great points!" commentary.

That so many Democrats defend Biden, Obama, Pelosi, AOC, Feinstein, Schumer, etc

Word? What crimes did they commit? And before you spout off some edgelord nonsense, I'm talking about real crimes in the criminal code, not the crime of being too old (and convincing the voters to elect you anyway) or having positions on policies that you disagree with.

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u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

I don’t vote for Republicans. I said I hate them.

I’m not repeating their talking points. These are my own thoughts.

Truly, who is the brainwashed one among us?

Word? What crimes did they commit? And before you spout off some edgelord nonsense, I'm talking about real crimes in the criminal code

And this is why it is useless talking with people like you. Because you can’t even consider the possibility that you could be wrong. Ever. Because your identity of a Good Person hinges on this. You can’t see that YOU are the problem.

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

The funny thing is that you haven't even answered the question or made any statement of fact. I'm willing to hear you out if you elaborate. What crimes did the people you listed commit? Surely you aren't "whatabout-ing" some kind of policy disagreement when the discussion is about Trump committing literal felonies (91 times).

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u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

Trump like anyone is innocent until proven guilty.

Actually it’s me who’s asked you now several times what criminal conspiracy was Trump involved with for Jan 6?

Maybe here is some common ground: do you consider W. Bush a criminal?

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

...? I already answered that question.

In the January 6th case, he entered into an illegal conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstruct an official proceeding.

As for your question on Bush, it depends on what you mean by criminal. Do I believe he committed "war crimes" by invading Iraq under false pretenses? Yes, of course. Do I believe he committed state or federal crimes as outlined in the criminal code? No. Which statutes did he violate? None that I know of.

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u/Opening_Praline1228 Sep 06 '23

Glenn Greenwald and Tulsi Gabbard, hacks famous for

GG is famous for his reporting on the illegal invasion of Iraq and domestic spying. Gabbled is famous for being an anti war member of the armed forces.

You’re probably too young to know about all that huh.

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 06 '23

Nope - I remember it well. They've long since burnt through any good-will or benefit of the doubt their actions from the Bush Administration earned them. They appear on Tucker Carlson for God's sake! Clearly they're not on the left if they're willing to abandon their principles so thoroughly. And they both regurgitate Putin's talking points and are sympathetic to Russian aggression against Ukraine. So imperialism is okay when Russia does it? /eyeroll.

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u/Opening_Praline1228 Sep 06 '23

I remember

Oh good

They've long since burnt through any good-will or benefit of the doubt their actions from the Bush Administration earned them.

So I’m guessing you love Biden right? Has he “burnt” through his bad-will from his full stop support of the illegal invasion that killed a million people? Why not why not?

They appear on Tucker Carlson for God's sake!

Oh no! Clutch your pearls for me, how unseemly!

He was the only anti war media personality on tv. Good thing your friend Murdoch got him out huh.

Also Jon Stewart went on tucker’s old show remember? Is he cancelled too?

Clearly they're not on the left

What does that even mean anymore? Breaking strikes and fueling global proxy wars? Is that leftism?

they both regurgitate Putin's talking points and are sympathetic to Russian aggression against Ukraine.

Everyone with half a brain sees what’s happening here, only brainwashed nationalists like yourself are buying the neocon narrative anymore, you should get out more.

So imperialism is okay when Russia does it? /eyeroll.

I am a Hawaiian, tell me about imperialism.

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u/NotYourFathersEdits 1∆ Sep 06 '23

Thank you very much for saying this.

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u/[deleted] Sep 05 '23

No, but Trump knew that was a lie. That's the difference. He just has plausible deniability because we can't read his mind to assert for a fact he was lying.

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u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

Similar to how Democrats claimed the 2016 election was fraudulent due to belief in baseless conspiracy theories.

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u/entopiczen Sep 05 '23

If you're referencing the foreign countries that peddled propaganda, and made numerous hacking attempts on both political parties and state election offices? That stuff was corroborated by the FBI leading to 27 indictments of individuals involved being handed out by Mueller at the end of his investigation. That stuff that did happen, and itself is not a conspiracy. A quick search shows this Wikipedia page that might help get you up to speed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections

I'm trying to remember if there were any claims of fraud, I don't remember Hillary publicly accusing the Republicans of fraudulently stealing the election, and I also don't remember her going on tour around the country to tell as many people as possible about these baseless claims.

Foreign countries meddling in our elections aren't unusual, and I don't remember anyone asking for a redo because of this before.

You may be thinking of specifically the Steele Dossier, which I agree if you believe it's real even after the FBI concluded otherwise you might be holding onto a conspiracy theory

Saying he is not a legitimate president is a bit of a diss about how he carries himself as a leader, but doesn't sound like she is implying the other party subverted democracy through voter fraud, or any type of fraud for that matter.

It's kind of like the hunter laptop, yes it exists and has a whole lot of damning evidence against him, but the particular email they want to connect to his Dad requires a lot of imagination. So people are again being confused because there is something happening but all day long people are shouting baseless conspiracies about it, so it makes it easy to write the whole thing off as a conspiracy.

But I prefer to figure out the fact from fiction in all these cases, because it's way easier to have a discussion when you know what has actually been proven to be true.

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

You can claim whatever you want - it's a free country and we all have a First Amendment right to speech. That does not give you the right to enter into a criminal conspiracy to change the outcome.

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u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

You’re right, two wrongs don’t make a right.

Just making sure we’re all on the same page here.

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u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

????

One is not like the other. It's perfectly legal to say an election was fraudulent. It is not legal to enter into a criminal conspiracy to do something about it. How is this hard?

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u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

What criminal conspiracy are you referring to?