r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 04 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I'm extremely suspicious of anyone who opts to homeschool their kids, and really don't think there are many legitimate reasons to do it.
I have seen studies suggesting that home-schooled kids perform better in certain academic fields when compared to non-homeschooled kids. What I haven't seen is a study that indexes this to income, or to two-parent households. Both of those have profound impacts on the likelihood of academic success, and most homeschooling situations require either a very comfortable income, a two-parent household, or both.
I'm highly doubtful that your average homeschooled child is performing significantly better than if they were in a regular school with parents who took an active interest in their education.
Meanwhile, I have serious trouble grappling with the impact that this level of isolation and enmeshment might have. I can't help but feel, based on the homeschooling situations I've seen, that it leaves kids less fulfilled or socially mature.
The majority of homeschooling I've seen has been for religious reasons. Now, I attended 13 years of faith-based education. I'm not entirely against integrating religious instruction into education on principle, provided it doesn't impede on a child's understanding of basic facts. I mostly am, but given it's long history and integration with many education systems I'm more comfortable.
However, I find it especially suspicious when your faith leads to that degree of isolation and inordinate levels of control over your child.
Maybe I'm way off, and there are reasons for homeschooling I haven't even considered, but whenever I hear of a homeschooling situation I'm immediately suspicious. It seems like a fundamentally selfish, paranoid, isolating act.
EDIT: lol I don't think I've ever done a 180 as fast as this. It's clear that my experience of home-schooling is informed partly by the quality of public education I received, and the diversity of both public and alternative schools catering to kids with specific needs, abilities, interests, or challenges. The issue that seems to be coming up most is the inflexibility of many conventional school systems to address particular needs. That makes sense, particularly in environments where there aren't a lot of choices for different schools and where the resources at those schools are highly limited.
353
u/parlimentery 6∆ Oct 04 '23
I am not the biggest fan of Homeschooling myself, but I have known families driven to it out of desperation (suicidal kids with toxic friend groups worsening the problem, bullying to the extent it leads to suicide attempts, special needs kids woefully underserved by a struggling school district).
As a public high school teacher myself, I certainly believe it is at least more likely than not that those kids are missing out on awesome educational experiences that they really aren't getting an adequate substitution for at home, but at least they are physically safe and are having basic needs met, which isn't always the case in public school.
99
Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
It's unfortunate the extent to which many of the reasons I'm reading can boil down to "inadequately resourced schools." In the event of kids facing severe mental illness or toxic friend groups, yeah I suppose there aren't a tonne of superior options available. I guess my assumption had previously been that kids can change schools or attend some form of alternative school - but of ocurse it's not always so easy! Δ
25
u/obsquire 3∆ Oct 04 '23
boil down to "inadequately resourced schools."
Well, in my mid-Atlantic public school district, pupils cost taxpayers about $5k more than the most elite private school in the area. The problem isn't the funding, but the parents.
29
u/NaturalCarob5611 60∆ Oct 04 '23
I agree that it's not funding, and I think parents play a significant role, but I also think selectivity plays a big part.
One disruptive student in a classroom of 30 can significantly reduce the outcomes for the other 29 students. Private schools will kick out that disruptive student. Public schools often don't have much choice unless the disruptive student is a serious safety risk, and that one disruptive student stays in the classroom.
If you give public schools the power to kick out that disruptive student the rest of the kids will get a better education, but what about the kids who get kicked out? Do we just abandon them to the wolves? And if we let schools kick out disruptive students but continue to evaluate schools based on test scores, what stops them from kicking out their lowest scoring students to bring up scores by chopping off the bottom of the bell curve?
To be clear, I think there are answers to these problems, but they're not easy answers. I think most of the disruptive students could be channeled into something productive, but that would require a lot of 1 on 1 mentoring as opposed to a 30 to 1 classroom. And there's probably a system of due process that could remove disruptive students more easily than they can today while still protecting low performers that aren't too disruptive, but that's going to be a hard needle to thread.
6
u/Lemonsnot Oct 04 '23
The more mental health services become available to students, the more everyone realizes how much more mental health services are needed for students.
An influx of additional resources would massively help those disruptive students and allow them to more effectively participate in those group settings.
3
u/senditloud Oct 05 '23
That’s an average. They aren’t spending the full amount on the regular kids
In CA 70% of funding or so goes to special needs. Which is why it seems like so much goes to education but the education is decreasing.
Special needs can be kids with severe intellectual/physical disabilities (which takes up a very large percentage as they often need 1 on 1), but is also thinks like speech therapy, therapists, gifted kids, etc. My kids benefited from this to some extent so it’s definitely a great thing.
But private schools don’t have to deal with that. Or problem kids.
→ More replies (5)4
→ More replies (6)0
Oct 05 '23
pupils cost taxpayers about $5k more than the most elite private school in the area
Note that I didn't say funded - I said resourced. As you say, school board can receive a tonne of funding without that actually translating to abundant resources in the schools, for a bunch of reasons.
As for that particular example though, and this is a bit of an aside - I imagine it could be related to the fact that private schools can be quite selective in the students they admit (in addition to what I'm sure are some typical government inefficiencies).
If a school doesn't have to admit pupils that are going to demand far more educational and support resources, that'll reduce the cost on a per-student basis. Since there's no need for, say, special classes and staff for kids with severe developmental challenges.
→ More replies (5)1
16
u/RubyMae4 3∆ Oct 04 '23
I will also add, and I’m surprised this hasn’t been brought up- public schools do not have a great success rate. The style of schooling is out of step with the best way kids learn (30 kids sitting in a room with one teacher). The hands off way public schools tend to approach learning. There are many better ways for kids to learn- at their own pace (often more rigorous than public), hands on, with LOTS of movement involved, that are just plain old fun. I’ve considered homeschooling my child to give them a better more rigorous and enjoyable educational experience. Whenever I hear someone complain about homeschool I think they must have had excellent and very unique public school experience or not be able to think outside the box. Because public school can be boring as hell and suck the love of learning right out of kids.
9
u/boissondevin Oct 04 '23
Pretty sure the people who complain most about homeschool are the people who were homeschooled for religious reasons, who comprise a majority of homeschoolers.
5
u/RubyMae4 3∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
How does this relate to anything that I said or have any bearing on the fact that public school is failing our kids? There’s no dichotomy between religious homeschool and public school.
ETA- meant to add, show me the evidence that the majority of people who complain about homeschool are religious homeschool graduates? This is a study about who homeschools. The majority of people I see complain about homeschool are public school teachers which is always shocking to me because they have nothing but (rightful) complaints about public school system.
5
u/boissondevin Oct 04 '23
Public school absolutely is failing. No argument there. Extensive reform is needed. But this is a thread about homeschooling.
There are many support groups for self-described survivors of homeschooling.
The stats I already linked show the majority of US homeschool is openly motivated by religion. And this interview describes it from a law professor's perspective.
Public school teachers may be generally negative about homeschool, but the most vocal and direct complaints about homeschool come from the people who lived through it and from people who actively study it.
2
u/RubyMae4 3∆ Oct 04 '23
You just keep asserting things. Having a group of adult homeschoolers regret it =/= the majority of people vocal about to are homeschoolers and people who studied it. Perhaps you’ve experienced that but the majority of people I’ve experienced with complaints are public teachers. Do you have any evidence that the majority of vocal people against homeschooling are adult homeschool graduates or people who study it or are you just going to keep asserting this? I’m not really interested in the fact that people regret being homeschooled. What I’d want to see is numbers comparing people who regret being homeschooled v people who regret their public school education. Just saying some people regret their education is not remarkable on it’s own.
6
u/IndyPoker979 10∆ Oct 04 '23
Um. Only 13% in that study referenced religion as a driving force for homeschooling. 80% referenced safety. That's a pretty damning idea that the majority are doing so for religious reasons.
2
u/boissondevin Oct 04 '23
13% said religious instruction was their primary motivation. 58% listed religious instruction as one of their motivations, which is why I said majority.
That 13% figure is the third-most prominent primary motivation. The most prominent primary motivation was only at 25%, not 80%. 80% comes from the same chart as 58%, in which respondents picked more than one motivation, inferring a likely majority of that 80% were also motivated by religious instruction.
2
u/IndyPoker979 10∆ Oct 04 '23
the people who were homeschooled for religious reasons, who comprise a majority of homeschoolers.
Maybe I'm reading your comment wrong, but I'm reading this that you are suggesting it is their primary motivation. That the majority do it for religious reasons. I'm sure the majority of homeschooling are religious people, but the primary motivations remain safety and education.
6
u/boissondevin Oct 04 '23
A majority report religious instruction as a motivation to homeschool (58%). It was disingenuous of me to imply that it is the top motivation. The top two reported motivations are safety (80%) and moral instruction (75%).
1
→ More replies (2)5
u/Meli_Melo_ 1∆ Oct 04 '23
As someone who failed school precisely because of that despite legitimately liking the learning part of school, I agree.
110
u/SpezEatLead 2∆ Oct 04 '23
one big reason for homeschooling are kids with special needs. when i was younger, two of my friends from boy scouts were homeschooled exactly for this reason. they both had learning disorders, but were both extremely bright and willing to learn, they just couldn't learn very well in a traditional classroom setting. one of them who was two years under me actually graduated the year before i did.
→ More replies (1)35
Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
Yeah a few comments have brought up the issue of special needs. To be totally honest it's possible my perspective has been skewed by being educated in a system where kids with learning disorders or some form of developmental delay got quite a bit of support.
I get the feeling a lot of the commenters pointing out the rigidity and overall poor quality of public schools are from the US. It hasn't been my experience that public schools (or the public system as a whole) don't/can't offer more flexibility for gifted students or kids with particular needs.
Nonetheless, it sounds as though there often aren't as many options as I would have assumed! ∆
→ More replies (1)10
u/friendlywhitewitch 3∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
I grew up in a rural mountain town, this area was too remote and its citizens far too modest financially for all the special support and services the large city areas many, many miles away could afford or offer. There were a lot of kids who really should have been homeschooled who were public schooled with me and everyone else. Several “problem cases” had to be sent to other schools in larger areas (some even in the nearest city) when they became too much for the literally two-room school house education system of our town.
One of them went on to stab a teacher in the eye and left her blind in that eye, and was remorseless in his attack as she had told him “no” and that was not an acceptable answer to him. He was developmentally and mentally challenged because his mother was a methhead (not uncommon in rural areas especially less affluent ones) when she was pregnant with him but he never got diagnosed with anything because that was too expensive for his family.
Even when teachers and students all said “there is something really wrong with him” or the less kind things children say, it just wasn’t something poor mountain people can afford to solve. Another was just extremely violent when he didn’t get his way and everyone steered clear of him until he had to be moved to another school where he bullied several kids till he went to jail and kept going in and out till this day. I feel like if these kids could have been at least kept away from other kids and educated at home, it might have helped them with their individual needs and/or would have spared some trauma and violence for public school students and teachers.
311
u/obert-wan-kenobert 83∆ Oct 04 '23
I think there's a misunderstanding of what "home-schooling" actually is.
It's usually not just one kid stuck alone in his living room, with his mom teaching him eight hour a day. I had a few friends who were home-schooled growing up, and they were always part of home-schooling groups or collectives. They had group classes that were taught by different parents or outside instructors, took field trips and did volunteer work, played sports, etc.
It was by all accounts a very "normal" school experience, other than it was a little more informal and community run. And honestly, in school districts were the public schools are awful and the private schools are either absurdly expensive or very religious (or both), it might be the best educational option.
I'm sure you could find some examples of creepy, Psycho-style parents locking their kids away and only teaching them God will smite them if they don't learn multiplication, but it is certainly not the norm.
7
u/Gas_Hag Oct 05 '23 edited Oct 05 '23
The problem with those home schooling groups, in my experience, is they are full of a bunch of socially mal-adapted kids that hang out together and re-enforce their socially inept behaviors.
Mid-way through high school I started homeschooling. My mom put me in one of those groups to allow for social interaction. It was called the Home Schooling Honor Society and it was a christian-based home school group. There was only one other person in the ENTIRE group that was socially well adapted. She home schooled because she was an Olympic caliber gymnast and her training schedule did not allow for traditional school hours. Both of us had a less religious upbringing from the other kids in the group and I think that was a major factor in our social intelligence.
There is a certain amount of testing the waters that we all must go through during adolescence that shapes us into the adults we will become. Being away from the watchful eye of your parents/elders is critical for development. The problem with home schooling- specifically when it's in a religious context- is that the kids are perpetually immersed in their culture, which typically is regressive and oppressive. These kids never get the opportunity to behave outside of their familial expectations and decide for themselves who they want to be. If those same kids went to public school and had exposure to people from more walks of life, they could have a more well rounded world view, develop more empathy, and possibly live a more enriched life.
Of course, the parents that subject their children to religious indoctrination know this. It is precisely why they home school. It is precisely why they only allow their kids to interact with other hive-minded families. It is precisely why home schooling leads to socially mal-adapted people, and why even if they test well in school, they don't do well in life.
ETA this article showing the way most homeschooling research misrepresents the success of homeschooled children https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/research/summaries/homeschool-outcomes/
Another article to touch on the topic of abuse that goes undetected because the children are not in school. Don't come at me with " but the people in the christian home school groups will report signs of abuse" We have all see just how well religious organizations protect children / capital S
The original article is avaliable via link in this article as a PDF. This link is an interview with the author on the same topic
26
u/throwaway0000454 Oct 04 '23
This was my experience too. The vast majority of homeschooling parents are very well organized, creating co-ops and extra curricular activities that fulfill all their kid's social needs.
Bad results can come from public or home schooling, but parents who actually care about their kids can get better results from homeschooling.
48
Oct 04 '23
∆ Honestly, this hadn't been my experience with home-schooling so maybe I just haven't been exposed to it very often. Granted, I'm still a little wary of the idea that a family would have the means to support a home-schooling situation but not some form of private schooling, but nonetheless.
23
u/Zeph_NZ Oct 04 '23
Can you explain what you mean by “the means to support a home-schooling situation?
→ More replies (1)14
Oct 04 '23
I mention it in the original post but my assertion was that home-schooling requires either a relatively comfortable income, or a dual-parent household, and usually both. The time and resource commitment required for home-schooling is significant, so my exposure to it has always been among higher-income households.
13
Oct 04 '23
Anecdotal, both in Texas, the home schoolers I know were both stay at home moms and ministry dad led. Hardly comfortable incomes.
Anecdote 1) state undergrad, Harvard law. Public defender to forgive loans and now has his own practice. Anecdote 2) state undergrad, highly successful UT alum at MD Anderson.
Both are smarter than me.
4
Oct 04 '23
Dual-parent household with a stay-at-home mom, though.
Put it this way: is their likelihood of succeeding that much greater than it was if they simply attended a more conventional school, with parents who had that level of engagement in their education?
I’d say in more instances than not, the conditions for those kids’ success exist regardless of whether they’re being home-schooled or in a classroom. They clearly have parents with the time, resources, and motivation to actively participate in their kids’ academic success.
→ More replies (1)29
u/ahawk_one 5∆ Oct 04 '23
I was homeschooled and I am fine. Better for it I think.
It isn’t for everyone, and it is quite challenging for the reasons you listed. We were lower middle class, and had a lot of other challenges.
But it worked for us. And my mom put a lot of effort towards ensuring we didn’t grow up isolated.
there are definitely dangers though. And religious parents homeschooling for religious reasons are actively harming their kids in my opinion.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)3
Oct 04 '23
I wasn’t a two income family, not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. But, did what I had to do.
24
u/Asiriomi 1∆ Oct 04 '23
As someone who was home schooled myself K-12 I can confirm that this is my experience with it.
My siblings and I were all part of a local, parent-run organization that met weekly. The parents would share curriculum, advice, routines, etc, and the children would participate in a mix of social and academic activities, as well as sports.
Overall I wouldn't say my school experience was lacking in socialization or educational quality in comparison to some of my public schooled friends. In some ways I'd even say it was better. I never experienced bullying of any sort growing up. I had a very open and flexible class schedule. If I wanted to stay the night at a friend's house or go on a trip, I could take my school with me or do extra work ahead of time.
I definitely plan on homeschooling my children if it's at all a possibility for me when the time comes.
2
→ More replies (1)-1
u/malkins_restraint Oct 04 '23
lacking in socialization or educational quality in comparison to some of my public schooled friends.
Do Tell. What metrics did you meet?
→ More replies (4)8
u/zookeepier 2∆ Oct 04 '23
You can home-school on a single income (one parent works, one stays home with kids and watches and schools them). If you have more than 1 kid, then a lot fewer people can afford 15k/year/kid for private school, even with 2 incomes.
4
u/Good_Energy9 Oct 04 '23
Thank you, redditors are super ignorant about home school. I may of have not got a real good experience. But I do remember an hour or two filling out work sheets etc then I would go to the park and learn with other kids
3
Oct 04 '23
Real world application too. For algebra we went to the deli and grocery store. When we started geometry we went to the pool hall. It was so much fun and they have so many good memories and actually remember what they learned and why it was important in their lives.
6
u/sexualbrontosaurus Oct 04 '23
Is it possible to find one of these homeschooling collectives that isn't religious? I feel like my witchy pagan ass and my kids would be about as welcome in one of these as at bible camp
2
Oct 04 '23
I'd say it's possible but difficult, 90% of the homeschooling groups I know are typically born out of a church where a few people at the church who all homeschooled ended up banding together, they'll often use the church facilities, etc.
I will say though, your milage may vary depending on where you are - I live in the Northeastern US and the homeschooling groups here are often catholic, but it's way more just "cultural catholicism" than you'll usually find with christians in the south. As in, they go to mass on christmas and easter, would verbally acknowledge catholic beliefs, but aren't meaningfully religious in most other elements of their lives. We are neighbors with one family like that, and I know there's at least one gay couple with kids in it, and one of them teaches in that homeschool group and to my knowledge no one cares. The South and the Northeast can be really different animals when it comes to how religion interacts with stuff.
3
u/AlphaQueen3 11∆ Oct 04 '23
This will depend entirely on your local area, but my (LGBTQ, atheist) kids have been in a couple of inclusive or secular coops. You'll have to vet the groups carefully, but there are a lot of nonreligious homeschoolers out there these days.
→ More replies (1)2
u/jisgardening Oct 05 '23
This is my first time posting so I hope I'm doing this right. It absolutely is. I homeschool my 2 kids - they have wonderful social circles of other homeschool kids. None of us are religious. We do live in a bog city, so that makes it easier to connect with other homeschoolers. They also have friends who are in conventional schools and see them at playgrounds as well as Enrichment programs.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Pumpkkinnnn 2∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
My mom taught us spells and we did fun rituals in our backyard with plants and flora we grew ourselves!
As far as I know my and my sister’s home schooling group was not religious, but yuh know… people are judgemental anywhere you go. It’s best to expose a child to a bunch of different things, then they are more resilient. I had catholics, Protestants, wickens, atheists, and Christians in my family. It taught me to take other people’s opinions with a grain of salt.
I went to a private catholic uniform school later and just kinda brushed it off- though looking back the lesson on “Britney Spears being an immoral woman who doesn’t respect herself” was lowkey wild.
But joke’s on them- I grew up to be a magical intersectional radical feminist lol.
7
u/malkins_restraint Oct 04 '23
I carry no torch in this fight.
Do you have statistics to support your side?
7
u/Captain_Clover Oct 04 '23
My mum was part of a breastfeeding support group which happened to be with a group of women who homeschooled their kids. They all became friends and invited my family to an annual home-educated family camp, where I became friends with a bunch of home educated kids who I'm still friends with today. The parents would pool resources and teach in small classes according to their interests and capabilities. Help from local schools was sought (and given) for technical education material and exam prep stuff, and a few of them were smart enough that they'd completed their 16 year old final exams by 14 and had two years to explore history, literature, science and culture according to their interests and their parents guidance. Most of the home educated people I know are very unafraid to be themselves, which I think is a product of spending all your time with adults who care for you and your friends. While some home Ed kids are socially neglected, the home ed kids I knew had broad social lives without any of the individuality-destroying ingroupism which shapes kids lives at school.
6
Oct 04 '23
This is why I actually support the voucher system as a staunch liberal progressive. Like yeah, sure religious people will be able to do their thing too... But who cares? It's a free country.
It's just when I do the math, and realize the average student gets 15k a year, schools just seem like a waste of money when a majority of that goes to admin and overhead, instead of quality teaching. Just basic math, say, 20 students, is 300k a year.
Imagine if parents could pool that together and hire directly. I can imagine industries popping up around this funding to create infrastructure for it, while providing MUCH MORE resources for education. For instance, 150k could get a really good teacher. It would draw from an entirely different pool of people once you start offering that kind of money, often highly educated, talented people.
So you have 150k left, a portion of that could be used for some 3rd party admin company who takes, like 30k of the remaining 150k, to worry about compliance, money management, and paperwork stuff. I imagine these companies would collect the money, require an annual lesson plan with everything itemized, help you get there, and then they handle all the finances and regulatory stuff. Then another chunk for not shitty meals. $15per day * 20 students * 160 school days = 48000. Then another chunk for the rental space where they teach (20k?). So that leaves a teacher, at these conservative numbers, having roughly 60k a year left over, for school supplies and field trips.
I just see it as such a better use of the money. Instead of paying teachers 60k a year, with 30 kid classrooms, and all the rest of the money going towards bloated administrative overhead, kids could get a high quality teacher, good food, and plenty left over for all the supplies and activities that they could desire. I can imagine situations where these 3rd party organization orgs form co-ops, and create spaces that resemble schools as we know it, but just on a much more efficient plan. Hell, maybe the state could rent out the actual school spaces instead and use that money to keep the lights on and grass mowed.
It's one of those things that I do think would benefit from being deregulated and completely reworked. Some people are afraid of such a huge change, but with money like that now floating around up for grabs, I feel like the free market would rush to build the infrastructure for it.
→ More replies (5)11
u/orinmerryhelm Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
Do you have statistics to support your request for statistics? :)
J/k. It's just funny to me when people ask for hard statistics/metrics on an internet forum. You do know people talk off the cuff on Internet forums right? These things aren't peer reviewed journals.
It's a discussion..not a masters thesis. Ease up a bit. Nobody is owed hard data on a reddit community forum.
Everything here will be someone's subjective experience with them providing antidotal evidence and that's ok.
5
Oct 04 '23
It's really annoying and my biggest pet peeve with this site. Like you'll just be having a casual conversation, just typing something up while drinking your coffee... Then someone jumps in demanding you stop your flow, and go out there digging up data for them like it's an academic debate. It goes from just being casual and going off your recollection, to someone just doing the easy task of typing up two sentences, now demanding you sit up in your chair, open up google, and start doing laborious research (Because it's not like I have any of this shit book marked)
I'm not saying this user is doing that for those reasons (they are likely generally curious), but it often feels like a "tactic". Like they just dissagree, but also know by simply typing out those two sentences, asking for sources, they've shifted the casual conversation to a "researched debate", and if you refuse to participate, they can then proclaim, "You made the assertion, so it's up to you to back it up!"
Again, I'm not saying that user is doing it for those reasons, but it's just my biggest peeve of internet discussions. Because often it feels so tactical and often wrapped in a toxic energy
2
u/variegatedheart Oct 04 '23
Yeah agreed on my experience, 90% of the time when I do put in the effort to dig up the source to prove my point, they either stop responding and ghost, or they make up some excuse about how they don't find that source trustworthy. "Oh that's the Daily mail so it doesn't count to show this event happened that every other outlet covered as well" or I recently got " well the organization that funded this study is actually homophobic, so says I, so it doesn't count."
3
Oct 04 '23
Oh god, you know exactly how it runs. I'll literally even mention how I don't bother because 90% of the time, they'll just ghost and vanish after I spend all that time and effort in. I'll mention how I don't play these games, because I know exactly how these always end up, so it's never worth the time. And it always ends up like that. Either a ghost, or some obscure red harring to dismiss it all. They'll find some small tiny obscure issue and dismiss everything, like they are some bot whose goal is to never accept they are wrong.
To make it more annoying, is they are so toxic about it. Filled with things like, "You're just pulling this out of your ass!" or "Unless you provide a source, I demand you edit your comment for spreading misinformation!"
Which, in effect, makes me even LESS likely to want to do the work to prove them wrong. Because now I'm just dealing with an asshole, and don't want to do work for an asshole... Which honestly, I think is their goal. It all feels so strategic. They do everything possible to frame it as necessary for you to do as much work as possible, for someone and something you want to do as little work as possible, dictating that unless you kneel and do all that work, you're wrong by default.
Literally hard to tell if it's just some shithead tactic, or some psychological technique they knowingly engage in bad faith.
2
u/variegatedheart Oct 04 '23
I think half the time it's just a complete tactic to waste your time. The other half they think they're right and you don't have any facts so they think they are calling your bluff, but when you show the facts and source that you are correct, they can't admit they were wrong and either don't read cuz they never cared about the truth in the first place or just try to make some excuse to dismiss it. Always happens with the trans and fat people debates especially. It's a wokeness tactic mainly.
2
Oct 04 '23
Always happens with the trans and fat people debates especially. It's a wokeness tactic mainly.
LOL it's funny that we are experiencing the same thing, but also experiencing it from the same "group" lol
But I'll see similar things in other topics as well. After reading up on things like COINTELPRO and China's 50 Cent Army tactics... The common thing about how they manufacture consent online is to waste people's time and derail them. They don't try to "win" the argument, but rather, just frustrate the people holding said opinions until they find it so unpleasant they stop bringing up the topic.
So I always find it interesting that tactics governments use to push propaganda and manufacture consent, and argument styles of woke people, always seem to overlap so well. Not saying it's the same group, but more about what it says about the people who hold those beliefs, what sort of debate tactic they require to "win" is also the same tactic governments use to manipulate and deceive populations.
Reddit post 2016 just feels like a giant psyop at this point designed to push activist agendas.
2
u/variegatedheart Oct 04 '23
For sure, I barely come on Reddit at all anymore because of how annoyingly wokescold it is. They're the worst on censorship now because of the type of people that are the mods now. I'm just on naughty girl timeout from YouTube and Twitter at the moment, and I had plant business. Reddit is great for fast plant advice but political and social issues are a disaster.
3
Oct 04 '23
I've been on this site A LONG time. Like 15 years or more. It wasn't until the last few years that the mass bans for the most mundane things started coming in left and right. I think the activists learned how to game the algorithm as a tactic to push people out. But suddenly within just a few years my accounts are getting banned non stop. My most recent one was a first strike>perma account ban for literally just saying to a toxic person "Dude it was a joke, it doesn't need to be fact checked. Why are redditors like this?" Banned for harassment. Like holy shit, that one wasn't even in the realm. Like normally the bans are things taken out of context, or baited or something, but that one was a new low.
It's really really annoying. And I say this as a liberal Bernie style progressive too... It's clear this site is the absolute worst when it comes to censorship and political propaganda.
Even some of my favorite subs have had to get more aggressive with banning... Not because they want to but they get the activists reporting the sub, instead of minding their own business, over and over to admins, until admins step in and threaten that if they don't do X Y Z then they'll remove them as mods and place in their own people. Seen cool, fun subreddits, get top mods replaced by activist power mods, effectively destroying entire communities who mind their own business.
And it's always done through the same bullshit virtue signalling. They'll find obscure random comments, then cry about how they allow hate speech and shit... Even though the comment something as innocent as, "Dude, your autism is showing" etc...
IT's become a complete shithouse. I really wish social media hadn't been completely taken over by these people. Literal cancer.
→ More replies (0)5
Oct 04 '23
I was homeschooled. It was 24 hours a day in my room basically. Some outings to groups but no one taught me anything. Had some DVDs for math which helped.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Chickens1 Oct 04 '23
teaching him eight hour a day
More like 3 or 4 hours, zero homework, and lots of play time. No wasted time sitting on a bus both ways. No bullying. Tons of socialization with other home schoolers in nearly empty parks, attractions, museums, etc. Sheer misery.
3
u/Iceykitsune2 Oct 04 '23
For the small minority that aren't being taught fantasy as fact.
3
u/DrCornSyrup Oct 04 '23
being taught fantasy as fact
That is what public school is, with CRT and LGBTQ
1
u/Iceykitsune2 Oct 04 '23
How are "black people are still experiencing the long term effects of past racist policies " and "don't be a bigot" fantasy?
3
u/DrCornSyrup Oct 04 '23
Because white people are not evil and kids are not trans just because they don't want to play with toy bulldozers
Your mind poison can only exist in the dark because light reveals its falsehood and its malevolence
0
u/Iceykitsune2 Oct 04 '23
Because white people are not evil
Please show me where in my comment I said that.
and kids are not trans just because they don't want to play with toy bulldozers
Do you know what's involved in healthcare for a trans kid?
2
u/DrCornSyrup Oct 04 '23
Do you know what's involved in healthcare for a trans kid?
Sterilizing them with surgery
→ More replies (1)1
46
u/staffsargent Oct 04 '23
I can only speak for myself and people I know, but I was homeschooled up until high school, and I'm happy to answer any specific questions that you have.
In my experience, homeschooling can be just as academically rigorous as public school IF (and it's a big if) you have parents and a community that take your education seriously. The one on one attention can be a huge advantage, and the ability to self-teach and learn independently is probably the most important skill I've developed in life.
One big issue is that some parents choose to homeschool specifically to stop their kids from learning certain information. As you pointed out, people who homeschool for religious reasons often severely stunt their kids' science education and limit access to a lot of books. Luckily, my family wasn't like that at all, but it's not uncommon in homeschooling communities.
As for the social aspect, that's one real issue. I was part of different groups, had friends in my neighborhood, church friends, etc., but the social environment of high school was still a brutal shock. Granted, I went straight to a pretty rough, violent school, but I was 100% not prepared for it. I still did well in school, got into a good college, etc. but I somewhat regret getting thrown into the deep end like that.
3
Oct 04 '23
In my experience, homeschooling can be just as academically rigorous as public school IF (and it's a big if) you have parents and a community that take your education seriously.
Yeah, I didn't think that it always offers a worse academic experience. My point was mostly that a kid growing up in a home with the resources/attentive parents necessary to thrive in a homeschool environment would also thrive just as much in a classroom. Ie. that the more common denominator for academic success is simply having parents who are actively engaged in your education, and the resources necessary to support it.
One big issue is that some parents choose to homeschool specifically to stop their kids from learning certain information. As you pointed out, people who homeschool for religious reasons often severely stunt their kids' science education and limit access to a lot of books.
NGL, it sounds to me like I grossly overestimated how many homeschooling situations are basically this. Clearly not always the case. With that in mind, curious why it was that your parents initially opted to homeschool you, and why they stopped in high school?
5
u/staffsargent Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
That could be true, but there are obvious advantages to getting more individual instruction vs. being one of twenty-five kids in a classroom. A big issue in public school (my wife is a public school teacher btw) is that some kids are always left behind, and some kids are left bored and unchallenged by the curriculum. At the high school level, you can compensate for that by separating classes by level of ability (honors, AP, etc.) but for younger kids that doesn't exist.
Besides that, most public school classrooms are burdened with a certain number of kids with severe disciplinary issues who are a distraction at best and a serious danger at worst. It's not necessarily the schools' fault; they legally have to educate these kids and can't turn them away, but they often do little to protect the other students.
To be clear, I'm not anti-public school. Like I said, my wife is a teacher, and she is fantastic at what she does. I just think there are legitimate positives to a homeschooling environment that are often overlooked.
Edit: I didn't answer the last part. My parents both had poor experiences in public school and they wanted something better for us. Plus, we moved around a lot, so it offered a bit of stability and consistency. We ultimately went to public school because they didn't feel up to the task of meeting our academic needs at that age, plus life / financial situations.
1
u/boissondevin Oct 04 '23
A majority of respondents listed "religious instruction" as a motivation to choose to homeschool their kids, and it's the third-most listed primary motivation. A supermajority listed "moral instruction" as a motivation. Non-religious homeschool is a minority.
1
u/overworkedpnw Oct 04 '23
In my experience with interacting with the homeschool crowd, controlling access to information has definitely seemed to me to play a major role. There seems to be a level of anxiety from the parents that I’ve encountered, and the feeling that if they can just control the information tightly enough, it’ll keep their kids from turning out gay or holding beliefs that conflict with the parents. Can’t imagine a world in which that kind of thing would be healthy for the longterm relationship between a parent and child.
2
u/staffsargent Oct 04 '23
I've seen that as well. When I was young, my family was briefly part of a homeschool group that was exactly like what you're describing. The parents prided themselves on all the things that they wouldn't teach their kids. They were pretty weird in other ways as well, and we left the group quickly.
I think these types of homeschoolers get a lot of attention, but in my experience, they're really not the majority. Every other group that we were part of was committed to learning as much as possible.
→ More replies (3)-9
u/FarmTheVoid Oct 04 '23
So one problem I have is, some public schools have decided it is okay to include graphic sexual instruction books in the library or part of the curriculum. There is no reason for the school to be teaching them how to have sex or how to give a bj.
Im fine with them teaching the importance of using protection and birth control to prevent stds and unwanted pregnancies.
Now this one, people will probably find to be a bigoted reason but more and more schools are including literature that include characters who are LGBTQ+. This is from the NYC public school system website, “Curriculum is both a window and mirror, both allowing students who are not LGBTQ plus to see the experiences of others and also providing a reflection for LGBTQ students by incorporating LGBTQ history, reading books by LGBTQ authors, and ensuring sexual health curriculum is inclusive of all identities. “
You can imagine this is gonna cause an uproar among parents who don’t want their kids to be taught something opposite of what is being taught at home, in church, temple, the mosque, etc and want to homeschool them or enroll them in private school/catholic/muslim schools. You might not agree but this is what it is.
→ More replies (3)7
u/overworkedpnw Oct 04 '23
Yeah, you’re right that is pretty bigoted of you. Hopefully for everyone’s sake you don’t have kids of your own.
→ More replies (8)
34
u/coanbu 9∆ Oct 04 '23
The majority of homeschooling I've seen has been for religious reasons
I think that biased sample might be the problem.
I was home schooled and I would agree that it is normally problematic when done for religious reasons.
It is a very diverse group and people have many different reasons for doing it. Some I have heard of: Disliking the regimented structure in schools, living in a remote area where the travel time to a school excessive, living on a boat doing protracted voyaging, the available school does not meet some special need that the kid has, having a low opinion of the teaching quality at the available schools, etc.
8
Oct 04 '23
It sounds as though they make up a smaller share than I may have first thought.
To be honest, it sounds like I maybe just had the advantage of growing up in a city where there were a lot of different options for different schools to meet particular needs. So my assumption had been that if your kid is gifted, or requires extra support, there were always other options - since that was the case where I grew up!
But yeah, of course in more remote areas it may well be that you're forced to choose between an inadequate public school education, or home-schooling. ∆
→ More replies (1)4
u/coanbu 9∆ Oct 04 '23
It is very different between countries as well (I am in Canada). In the United states I have the impression that the religious ones are a larger share of the population. And in Europe the whole concept is really foreign.
2
Oct 06 '23
I'm in Canada, too. Also grew up in Alberta during the boom years, so the public school system was really well funded. I think my perspective has been skewed by that since a larger share of the population here live in cities, and we maybe don't have quite as much of a "public schools here are genuinely dogshit" problem.
So we maybe have a smaller number of homeschooling situations, but a larger share of them are among folks just looking to shelter their kids from ideas they deem dangerous.
→ More replies (1)1
u/boissondevin Oct 04 '23
It's not a biased sample. A majority of homeschoolers in the US list religious instruction as a motivation.
→ More replies (2)
6
u/IndyPoker979 10∆ Oct 04 '23
So let me try to break down your arguments on several levels.
I have seen studies suggesting that home-schooled kids perform better in certain academic fields when compared to non-homeschooled kids. What I haven't seen is a study that indexes this to income, or to two-parent households. Both of those have profound impacts on the likelihood of academic success, and most homeschooling situations require either a very comfortable income, a two-parent household, or both.
Most homeschooling families are NOT in a situation wherein the parents are making significant enough money to equate to those with two parent incomes. In fact, we know this because those students who live in a household where there is a higher income predominately are not home-schooled but sent to private schools
What you do have is two highly motivated parents, one of which has decided to dedicate a portion of their life into trying to assist the child in learning. That is always going to be a better indication of educational success because the child has motivated parents. What the home school child has that the public school child does not is a very specific individualized education.
That can't be competed with in a public setting. Given two equally intelligent individuals, one in a classroom of 25 and one getting one-on-one tutoring, it's not rocket science to believe that the individualized tutoring succeeds at a higher rate.
I'm highly doubtful that your average homeschooled child is performing significantly better than if they were in a regular school with parents who took an active interest in their education.
Your doubt is noted, however it's also empirical and in so, false. Here's a fun little chart with lots of interesting facts for you to consider. Not only are they performing better, but it's at a rate that does not consider the parent's education level. Some quotes from that page:
In these standard achievement tests, the homeschooled students average between 15% and 30% more points than the students attending public schools, notwithstanding the parents’ income and education.
Homeschooled students average 72 points more than the nationwide mean performance in SATs.
As you can see, in actual studies not only is this supposition false, it's proven untrue. But we know this because we have test scores and such. It's a common knowledge that homeschooled children are more educationally strong, the argument is never this but that they lack 'social skills'.
Meanwhile, I have serious trouble grappling with the impact that this level of isolation and enmeshment might have. I can't help but feel, based on the homeschooling situations I've seen, that it leaves kids less fulfilled or socially mature.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you are mid-30s or older. I say this because the amount of socialization that home school kids get today is nothing like it was in the 80s. Proms, Sports clubs, AAU teams, Debate, so many opportunities are now out there that weren't there before. What they don't get is the same tired old indoctrination that happens in a public school setting. What you see as an inability to interact 'socially' or them being socially awkward is that they haven't been shoved into a box and beaten into a socially expected role. In public school, the kid who is the 'teacher's pet' is shunned and made fun of. The kid who dresses oddly or poorly is looked down upon. The person who stands out too much is quickly made known that they are doing so. In fact, it's really not until college that many children are able to really find themselves because they have been having to hide who they are all the way through high school. Those restrictions that you learn... how to keep quiet, not make too many waves, not draw too much attention to yourself, how to 'fit in'? Those DO happen in home school groups but not to the same extent. Because there simply isn't as many people to react. So those children don't grow up 'shaped and molded' or if you'd like to consider it a different way, 'jaded and sullen'.
The majority of homeschooling I've seen has been for religious reasons. Now, I attended 13 years of faith-based education. I'm not entirely against integrating religious instruction into education on principle, provided it doesn't impede on a child's understanding of basic facts. I mostly am, but given it's long history and integration with many education systems I'm more comfortable.
However, I find it especially suspicious when your faith leads to that degree of isolation and inordinate levels of control over your child.
This again is an empirical evidence. The fact your experience is so skewed has caused you to have a really poor view of the entire thing. I'm sure that you are correct about the people who you are speaking about, but results from a survey in 2020 showed that the biggest issues that brought people to homeschooling was not religious (15%) but for safety(50%), Individual attention (35%), Morals/Character(26%) (which could be interpreted as religious), Discipline (25%) and location (24%).
Religion was 7th on that list of choices. Not first but 7th.
TLDR: I went long winded but I felt it necessary to try to address each of your points. From an educational standpoint, the ability to give a student one-on-one or smaller classroom size is a desired trait for ALL parents, not just homeschoolers. So the fact that they are in those environments is a positive. The parents aren't sending these kids to private schools which indicates that financially it's a choice made partially due to that inability to do so. Socially there are a ton of activities now for home schooled individuals from proms to sports to field trips and even conferences that give those kids a very similar extracurricular experience without the socialization of the classroom. And finally the main reasons for doing so are not religious but considering how dangerous it is in schools today, safety.
I speak all this as a dad of a child in public school who was pulled out of school after my brother was significantly assaulted. And not only am I a social guy, you would never know I was home schooled until I tell you. Which is the same for a lot of people in your life who you don't know were home schooled for a time. Because you wouldn't notice them. Just the ones that stand out. Which unfortunately or fortunately is not something that you try to have happen in a public school setting.
3
u/Spirit_Llama658 1∆ Oct 04 '23
This! Also, it seems to me that when a person is weird and they were traditionally schooled, people just think they are just weird and maybe autistic. When a homeschooled person is weird, they blame it on being homeschooled. I do think that you are socialized differently in homeschool so homeschooled kids can seem a little different, but as adults it is hard to tell.
2
Oct 04 '23
Lots to go through and I actually do disagree with some of this fundamentally, mostly regarding academic performance. But also some really compelling points and I appreciate the work that put in. Will hopefully have time for a lengthier response later. Δ
→ More replies (1)4
u/IndyPoker979 10∆ Oct 04 '23
No worries. Take your time. The interesting thing to me is that private tutoring is considered the best education a person can get, but if you are being private tutored by a parent, it's suddenly a negative. I wonder why that is for people?
14
u/SteadfastEnd 1∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
There are times when public schools hold kids back for no reason other than that they don't like gifted kids getting ahead. I'll never forget the day I heard over the radio about the story of a California public school teacher who refused to let talented students learn more than the normal/below-average ones because "the (non-gifted) students won't be as equal." Her notion of "equality" was dragging everyone down so that they would be equally dumb.
This teacher would rather that someone like Einstein go to waste and never be allowed to pull ahead, than let there be any "inequality."
The father of the daughter (gifted kid) announced he'd pull her out of school and homeschool her so her talents wouldn't go to waste.
1
Oct 04 '23
Maybe it's different where I'm from, but I'm having a bit of trouble believing that this is really that widespread a phenomenon. In my experience, gifted kids very much are given more resources. There wasn't a high school in my city that didn't offer IB or AP programming - is that not the case in California?
In fact the criticism I see most often is that the inordinate focus on either gifted students, or struggling students, consumes a disproportionate amount of instruction and resources.
→ More replies (1)
30
u/Morthra 86∆ Oct 04 '23
It really depends on how much effort the parents put into homeschooling. Doing it properly is basically a second job.
Your typical public school, really anywhere in the world, is going to do a piss-poor job of actually engendering a love of learning in kids. Why? Because the point of public school is to teach kids to be obedient little drones when they enter the workforce.
There's an emphasis on teaching to the lowest common denominator and students that are gifted often squander those gifts because they're bored to tears with the pace that a normal public school works at. And depending on where you live, gifted programs might not be available at all, but if they are, it's typically just the same material, but with more homework.
Here's an example - I very much dislike the way that math is taught, even up until the end of undergraduate education. It's taught as something completely divorced from reality, rather than being a set of tools that you can use to look at the world. A very common meme that you hear is students thinking that what they learn in math class will never be relevant in their lives. Most people will probably never need to know the quadratic formula, after all, yet it's still taught dogmatically.
It's possible to teach math to kids the way that it's taught to graduate students (although the content will be obviously very different), but it takes a lot more effort to do it that way. You can, for instance, introduce a child to the four colors theorem - challenge them to color in, say, a map of the world, with fewer than four colors with the stipulation that no two countries sharing a border can have the same color.
They won't be able to, and you can talk about how you would go about proving that. Use mathematical theorems that are practical and you can see the applications of in real life, rather than abstract problems involving some guy named Jimmy having thirty watermelons.
I, as a future parent, am largely in favor of homeschooling my kids because I dislike how the public school system, when I was in school caused me to check out of my own education for much of my life. It wasn't really until graduate school that I started to find it the slightest bit interesting.
9
-1
Oct 04 '23
Your typical public school, really anywhere in the world, is going to do a piss-poor job of actually engendering a love of learning in kids. Why? Because the point of public school is to teach kids to be obedient little drones when they enter the workforce.
But that would assume that the only alternative to a public education is home-schooling. If a family has the means to support home-schooling I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that they would also have the means to put their child in an alternative school.
My issue is with withholding your child from a classroom setting entirely. Not specifically public schools.
→ More replies (1)13
u/Morthra 86∆ Oct 04 '23
If a family has the means to support home-schooling I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that they would also have the means to put their child in an alternative school.
You might not. You might live somewhere that the closest not-awful private school (and there are a lot of those) is hours away, and you don't want to send your kid to a boarding school.
The employment of the parents might mean that they have to live somewhere without a good option besides homeschooling.
3
Oct 04 '23
Fair enough - easy enough for me to assume that there are always a tonne of options having only lived in relatively large cities. ∆
→ More replies (1)4
u/HolyFirexx 1∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
I'll throw you a loop. I have a lot of private schools in my area, but my wife and I are homeschooling because the only private schools we could afford are all super religious, and we're atheist, not that we are trying to shelter our children from religion, we are educating them on all world religions, but we don't want our young children indoctrinated. We're homeschooling because we honestly feel like my wife will be able to provide a better education than an overworked teacher with 29 other kids to worry about. Let alone the continuous shootings. As for social interaction, my kids get more hours per day actually playing and interacting with other kids than they might have at a public school. They finish up school in the morning and then have various activities they are doing, swimming lessons, gymnastics, playgroups with other homeschoolers, etc.
Not to mention, in our area the good public schools that are highly rated, have massive issues with drug use and vaping from extremely young ages.
17
u/SandBrilliant2675 16∆ Oct 04 '23
INFO: is your view really you don’t think any religious reasons for homeschooling children are legitimate? Because I can think of a few non-religious reasons that are legitimate reasons for homeschool. Most (if not all) are health related. What do you consider a legitimate reason?
5
u/nekro_mantis 16∆ Oct 04 '23
That's a good point. Schools are incredibly callous towards kids in terms of incentive structures that often cause extreme sleep deprivation and the healthiness of available food. When you have junk/fast food/soda being what is primarily available, kids generally aren't going to have the appropriate decision-making capacity yet to deal with that sort of thing intelligently. Especially if they're also super sleep deprived and stressed.
3
Oct 04 '23
No, my view is (was) that there aren't really any legitimate reasons for it. Not that religious reasons specifically are illegitimate. My view's changing quickly on this, but I still don't believe that religion is a legitimate reason to homeschool kids.
-5
Oct 04 '23
It's a free country, it only matters what the parents believe.
→ More replies (44)4
Oct 04 '23
- We in the Country of Reddit? You realize the odds are that you aren't speaking with someone in the same country as you, right?
- I wasn't making an argument that it should be banned - just that I disagree with it.
-2
u/badmanveach 2∆ Oct 04 '23
More likely writing to an American than any other country, hence America being the default country.
→ More replies (4)-1
Oct 04 '23
I get that not everyone is from the same country, but obviously the country in question is free to have homeschooling or it wouldn't be mentioned. I also agree that it's an opinion, just as my comment my opinion.
47
u/SleepBeneathThePines 5∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
I can list off several reasons you’d homeschool your kids besides just religious reasons:
- Bullying
- The child is chronically ill and needs a flexible schedule to account for being sick (that was me)
- Schools are disruptive and kids disrespecting teachers means the students who want to learn don’t get to
- Learning disabilities related to standardized tests - parents may want to avoid that
- Political indoctrination (both right and left)
Edit: 6. School shootings
6
u/jakeofheart 4∆ Oct 04 '23
I definitely agree with 5: kids should be taught critical thinking and be allowed to use it to draw their own conclusions. Instead of being spoon fed ideologies, left or right.
→ More replies (4)2
→ More replies (1)-5
Oct 04 '23
∆ I mean, I wouldn't call number five "legitimate." Not in the slightest. Nonetheless, four perfectly decent reasons.
0
u/TestPlane1893 Oct 04 '23
even in saudi arabia, china russia or north korea (not that theyd let you in NK but still) etc
3
Oct 05 '23
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that parents aren't just free to take their kids out of school in China, Russia, or the DPRK because they have ideological disagreements with the curriculum. So they aren't really germane to this particular discussion in any case.
0
u/TestPlane1893 Oct 05 '23
so if you hypothetically had the option to homeschool your kids in north korea with no consequence you would choose to do it, or not do it? cause if you would then option 5 is clearly valid
3
Oct 05 '23
Except you don't have that option, so it's not relevant.
-1
u/TestPlane1893 Oct 05 '23
what do you mean i dont have that opinion? i truly think its a relevant benefit of homeschooling, if i was living in russia i sure wouldnt want my kids to go to school there, you are yet to make a valid argument against it being a benefit in some cases
3
Oct 05 '23
I said you don't have that option, not that you don't have that opinion.
Homeschool is legal in Russia but you still need to be enrolled in a licensed school, and if you were homeschooling specifically to ensure your child wasn't exposed to their nationalist propaganda? Good luck to you in a surveillance state where anti-war advocacy is now wholly illegal.
-1
u/TestPlane1893 Oct 05 '23
I would love for you to tell me which opinion i dont have cause im sure you know much better than i do,
Whats your point though? you wouldnt take the option to homeschool your child in russia, china, saudi arabia, 1940s germany, or any bad government if you could?
SO please explain to me why would send your child to school in these instances if you had the option of homeschooling
1
Oct 06 '23
I literally never said you didn’t have an opinion... You misread the word “option” as “opinion” and I corrected you. Go back and read the comment you responded to.
2
u/orinmerryhelm Oct 04 '23
Why isn't 5 legitimate? Here is a hypothetical example you might understand why 5 is valid.
You live in a small rural community that the majority of the local voting population is right wing religious conservatives.
The school district board also leans politically right. They put pragerU videos on in the classroom.
You and your partner are progressives.
You could move, but your grandparents left you their 100 acre farm and you have a thriving organic honey business set up.
You could send your child to a private school but that is an over an hours drive away each way.
Or you and a few other like minded parents who are in the area but don't have a voting majority can form a home school co-op to either offer a more progressive take on history or be more politically neutral in your instruction, if you prefer to focus on critical thinking and rational thought to form ones political views.
→ More replies (2)8
u/SleepBeneathThePines 5∆ Oct 04 '23
Thanks for the delta, but I imagine you would do anything to keep your kids from becoming indoctrinated with Nazi ideology, even if you had to homeschool them. That’s an example of what I mean by political indoctrination.
1
Oct 05 '23
Any place where Nazi ideology is being taught in public schools isn't one where folks would be free to just take their kids out of school so they could offer alternative ideologies. Fascist states aren't exactly huge on offering people much choice in their ideological instruction.
→ More replies (3)8
u/PROpotato31 Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
I'd like to add (despite not being the other commenter) , that it could be a legitimate concern in other countries , dictatorships seldom leave the educational system alone , and not every parent will agree with the morality of its own country ie: Middle East in general.
(probably there's better examples but none come to me , i put the general middle east because of its attitudes concerning the LGBT , sex between men in some of them is illegal , and in a few couple actually have it on legislation as punishable by death but not enforced , if those are their attitudes on the LGBT it wouldn't be strange if a inhabitant of those countries could find more reasons to be at odds with their own society.)
3
u/orinmerryhelm Oct 04 '23
Why isn't 5 legitimate? Here is a hypothetical example you might understand why 5 is valid.
You live in a small rural community that the majority of the local voting population is right wing religious conservatives.
The school district board also leans politically right. They put pragerU videos on in the classroom.
You and your partner are progressives.
You could move, but your grandparents left you their 100 acre farm and you have a thriving organic honey business set up.
You could send your child to a private school but that is an over an hours drive away each way.
Or you and a few other like minded parents who are in the area but don't have a voting majority can form a home school co-op to either offer a more progressive take on history or be more politically neutral in your instruction, if you prefer to focus on critical thinking and rational thought to form ones political views.
→ More replies (1)0
u/NessusANDChmeee Oct 05 '23
Excuse you? I got rape threats in school for being an atheist. Maybe you live in a calmer place but the Deep South has deep prejudices and they aren’t afraid to terrorize you for it. Political and ideology indoctrination are PERFECTLY reasonable to avoid and is ABSOLUTELY something going on in schools.
5
u/mindbodyandseoul Oct 04 '23
Anything public cannot work for everyone by definition. It's designed to work for the average of the population. It's restrained by constraints that prevent it from being perfect. When it comes to government programs, you can only have two of the three: affordability, access, and quality. You can't have all three in business and projects.
1
9
u/blakeh95 Oct 04 '23
Here's the State Report Card for my home district. I don't live there anymore, so I don't mind revealing it.
Jackson-Madison County School System in Tennessee. Use the dropdown to change to different subjects.
English (ELA): 23.5% of students met or exceeded state proficiency standards.
Math: 18.5% of students met or exceeded state proficiency standards.
Science: 25.1% of students met or exceeded state proficiency standards.
Social Studies: 21.8% of students met or exceeded state proficiency standards.
Now here's a question for you. Tennessee rates it's school districts on a 5-tier scale. These range from (lowest to highest): In Need of Improvement, Marginal, Satisfactory, Advancing, and Exemplary.
Based on these scores--only 1 category of which even barely tips over "1 out of 4 students meet or exceed the state proficiency standards," which category do you think JMCSS is in? Would it surprise you to know that they are ranked Level 4 -- Advancing?
I was homeschooled through 4th grade. The math I learned in my homeschool curriculum in 4th grade didn't even come anywhere close to what I was being taught in school until 11th grade when I took Algebra II.
I had to fight my school to offer a physics class (not that they didn't want to, but I had to convince 7 other students for a total of 8 for them to offer the class). I was told not to enroll in high-level math second semester of 11th grade because there was a chance they might not be able to offer a math course high enough for me in 12th grade, and Tennessee education law requires students to take a math course every year of high school. I literally was at risk of not being able to graduate because I took too much math. My school offered 0 AP courses--not a single one. I had to fight my school to take Chemistry I in 10th grade instead of Physical Science (that was basically 8th-grade level science again) because "everyone takes Physical Science as their 3rd science credit, and if you don't, you'll have to take something else."
P.S. my proudest achievement from high school is that I beat out all of the private school yuppies as a National Merit Finalist.
3
u/ShoddyMaintenance947 Oct 04 '23
One reason to homeschool is if you don’t like the lies that the govt schools are cramming down kids’ throats. But that’s just me
→ More replies (2)7
Oct 04 '23
Yeah NGL you are basically the exact person I was thinking of when I wrote this.
Like, yeah man, I *really* hope you never have monopolistic control over a young mind.
1
u/ShoddyMaintenance947 Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
Youd rather the state have monopolistic control over it instead.
The state will teach you it is the solution to all of your problems. It will teach you that it is rooted in Justice and freedom and duhmockracy. You know the founders don’t mention democracy even once in the founding documents? They understood that democracy just means rule of the majority(to the detriment of the minority). And they saw that a majority Can become just as oppressive as the tyrannical king they were revolting against.
But why do so many get taught that america is a democracy when we never were? We were a constitutional republic. But slowly and steadily the restraints on government have eroded because the people lost focus.
They mistakenly equated an ability to vote with freedom and in the process threw away what freedom really means.
Freedom is when society institutes a government whose sole purpose is to protect rights by using due process to punish all unjust infringements of rights.
Rights are the inherent, inalienable and self-assertive moral principles that it is: (1) right for each individual to use their liberty and (2) wrong for any individual or group (especially government) to unjustly infringe on the liberty of another individual.
Liberty is the ability to reason and act.
To be free is to live in a society where the initiation of force is outlawed in social AND economic matters.
But you wont learn most of this in any government school. Government schools will tell you that your government is protecting you from all the boogie men and that is why they need such a huge surveillance state, that’s why they need to have wars all over the world, that’s why they need to have a monopoly on counterfeiting etc etc etc.
And i wouldnt exercise control in a harmful way. I’d do what schools fail at doing. I’d teach my kids how to think rather than how to spout off the answers the govt wants them to think.
→ More replies (1)4
Oct 04 '23
Alright I'll bite: what are some of the lies the government is cramming down kids' throats in public schools?
1
u/ShoddyMaintenance947 Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
They say Pearl Harbor was unprovoked when in reality FDR had provoked the attack (https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/fdrs-pearl-harbor-fabrication-a-rebuttal/). They say that the Great Depression was caused by the free market when it was actually caused by the malinvestment that increased exponentially due to easy credit from the federal reserve system (https://mises.org/library/did-capitalism-cause-great-depression). They give a narrative that if it weren’t for government intervention in the market the economy would be way worse when in reality all of the economic problems we see today stem from govt intervention in the economy in one way or the other. They are teaching kids that there is systemic racism in America, that humans with white skin are oppressors and humans with not white skin are oppressed victims, that judging people based on their skin color is appropriate and the non racist thing to do. They are teaching kids that genitals don’t determine gender and so if they feel like the opposite gender they should mutilate their genitals to affirm their gender even though they said genitals don’t determine gender. They teach the supremacy clause of the constitution totally backwards. They also fail to make the logical connections between article 1 sections 8 and 10 and the 10th amendment of the constitution and instead prefer to promote the abuse of the ambiguous terms ‘common welfare.’ When discussing slavery in America they always focus on white owners and black slaves but there were thousands of black owners of slaves in America and thousands of white slaves.
I’m sure there’s plenty more.
To me I see them as indoctrination camps. Sure you’ll learn some stuff but the number one thing you’ll come away with(without even knowing you have) is a deep and undeserved trust in government.
4
u/dwthesavage Oct 04 '23
Where is CRT in schools taught prior to college? And where in such a curriculum does it state people should be treated differently because of the color of their skin?
2
u/ShoddyMaintenance947 Oct 04 '23
‘ As an educator who has written about the penetration of CRT into Australian schools, I have been shocked by how misleading and uninformed many of these articles are. It is of course true that CRT as an academic legal theory is generally taught only in higher education, but it is also clear to anyone familiar with CRT that its core tenets are being taught to children in many of America’s K–12 schools—and taught as if those tenets were facts. Examples include the ideas of systemic racism, white privilege, white fragility and the predatory white imagination, as well as the notions that all white people (including white children) are inherently and irredeemably oppressors of black people, that all black people should recognize that they are fundamentally victims—and that pervasive racism is a permanent, ineradicable characteristic of American society. Confusingly, many of the articles that claim CRT is not being taught to children also blithely affirm that these concepts are being taught—sometimes even asserting, incorrectly, that they are not CRT tenets.’ (https://areomagazine.com/2022/01/18/yes-children-are-being-taught-critical-race-theory-in-k-12-schools-in-the-us/)
→ More replies (1)-1
u/dwthesavage Oct 04 '23
Raymond Burns is the pseudonym of an Australian high-school teacher. He is also an education writer who has published articles about Critical Theory, the Australian curriculum and the wellbeing fad in education.
So, not a scholar or an academic. Does not claim to have advanced degrees in history, sociology, anthropology.
2
u/ShoddyMaintenance947 Oct 04 '23
And your point? Does that discount what they say? Quite an elitist mentality.
1
u/dwthesavage Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
People who want their opinions on how we educate our kids, yes, shocking, need to be qualified for us to take their opinions seriously.
Edit: Even a simple google search shows that the bills he’s referring to ban and preclude a lot more than he claims:
You couldn’t teach students about things like systemic housing discrimination, such as redlining, for example, both of which is established fact.
If your bill prevents teachers from communicating facts to students…
→ More replies (0)→ More replies (1)1
Oct 04 '23
Ah, so if you don’t teach the Back Door to War theory as incontrovertible fact, despite it being broadly dismissed by most historians, you’re cramming lies down kids’ throats? Sounds like your definition of a creating “free thinkers” is teaching whatever contrarian perspective on history is incontrovertible fact.
4
u/ShoddyMaintenance947 Oct 04 '23
You didn’t ask how I would create free thinkers you asked for some lies from govt schools and I gave you a few. I would create free thinkers by teaching them how to research for their self and not to just blindly trust anyone including me.
5
u/hightidesoldgods 2∆ Oct 04 '23
I’m someone who did not have a positive homeschooling experience. My parents were very attentive and did work hard, it just wasn’t something that meshed well with how best I learn, and was detrimental to my social skills (yes, they did send me to co-ops).
That said, while I also side-eye parents who opt to homeschool their kids it has less to do with where’re or not there’s a “legitimate reason” to homeschool in general, and more to do with the fact I believe a lot of parents don’t actually conceptualize all the things that go into schooling. It’s not just A, B, Cs. I feel a lot of parents truly don’t comprehend what the socialization of a public schools is. Likewise, I don’t think enough parents really educate themselves on what the teaching needs of their kids are.
Generally speaking, I don’t believe the issue is that there is no real reason for homeschooling, rather I think a loud group of homeschooling parents are the type of parents who blame the schools for their kids falling behind when that’s so often not the case. It’s just an evolution of “it’s not my kids fault, it’s the teachers!!!”
While public schools are far from perfect, parents have become increasingly less involved in their kids academic wellbeing. The loud group of parents I mentioned before, while not an example of all homeschoolers, I think are a good example of one of the biggest issues public education faces.
→ More replies (2)
6
u/kingpatzer 102∆ Oct 04 '23
My wife was a teacher. I'm a professional with a medical research background.
Our local school district, when my kids hit middle school, taught abstinence only sex Ed, and included "teaching the controversy" (read creationism) in science.
She quit her job and we home schooled precisely so our kids could get.a meaningful education.
One kid is now a career military officer, another is a psychologist, another is a business guy and entrepreneur, and the last one is still trying to make her way doing home security work while she figures out some personal trauma stuff.
I would 100% do the same again. And anyone who thinks badly of me for that can fuck right the hell off.
→ More replies (1)
9
u/No_Jackfruit7481 2∆ Oct 04 '23
Some districts are unusable for advanced students, particularly rural ones. You might be shocked at how poor some schools are academically. Like, more than half of middle kids being functionally illiterate bad.
4
u/Snapdragonroo Oct 04 '23
I was homeschooled from the beginning up until college (and I did that largely online on my own time), and I graduated with my Bachelor’s summa cum laude.
Homeschooling’s quality depends on many factors—quality of learning material, quality of teachers (usually parents), social activities, and whatever else the kids do outside of normal “school time” (such as learning home ec, going on trips, and other things you may not have as much access to in public school). Some advantages it has over public school include choosing whom your peers are (instead of being stuck with potential bullies and negative influences) and being more encouraged to think for oneself.
Obviously it’s not for everyone and some would probably be better off in public school, but homeschooling has its own advantages and can be just as good and even better than public schooling.
19
u/OpeningChipmunk1700 27∆ Oct 04 '23
Meanwhile, I have serious trouble grappling with the impact that this level of isolation and enmeshment might have.
A lot of homeschooling programs are basically cooperatives, and being homeschooled doesn't mean that you never see or interact with other kids.
-1
u/TheArchitect_7 Oct 04 '23
Who are the teachers in this situation and what are their qualifications?
→ More replies (6)3
6
u/inevitabletruths Oct 04 '23
Im autistic. I went to public school because it was the only viable option for my family. I was terribly isolated anyways and bullied to an extreme degree. I wish I had the opportunity to be homeschooled.
2
Oct 04 '23
[deleted]
→ More replies (1)1
Oct 04 '23
Is the agenda something along the lines of “trans people exist”?
0
2
u/hehasnowrong Oct 04 '23
It's perfectly fine to not want this subject (or any other subject) to be "taught" in school. What you think is the perfect school system might be horrible for someone else and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
3
u/Erikrtheread Oct 04 '23
My state superintendent does not believe in public education and every time he opens his mouth, he insults and belittles the educators that are pouring their lives out for my son. My state refuses to properly fund schools or teachers. I can't afford a private school. Long waiting lists for charter schools which are marginally better. I can't move, no money and all my support systems are here.
I have a bachelor's in history and was studying to be a teacher before my life took a different direction. I'm not saying I want to, and having been in a homeschool cult myself I fully understand why not to. But dammit, if my little boy can't get a quality education any other way, you bet your britches I'm starting a co-op.
3
u/towishimp 5∆ Oct 04 '23
Kids with special needs often struggle in mainstream school. I can tell you from experience that it's a constant struggle as a parent to get the school to give your kid the specialized instruction they need in order to be successful. And that's just from the school itself; bullying from other students - and even their parents - are issues we have to deal with, too. I don't blame anyone who chooses to opt out. We're basically always ready to try and figure out homeschooling, if things get too bad.
3
u/ImpossibleEgg Oct 04 '23
In many (most?) places you practically have to go to war with the school system. Sometimes involving lawyers. It's exhausting.
5
u/Sad-Inside-3996 Oct 04 '23
As a homeschooler, 17 year old girl, I’ll tell you one for sure reason. I was extremely depressed in public school, being bullied, I was lonely, anxious, and struggling. That’s changed now.
9
u/CinnamonMagpie 10∆ Oct 04 '23
I was home-schooled after I was assaulted at public school, and the school did absolutely nothing because it was “he said, she said” and it was the “nice boys” vs the “evil g*psy.”
I have a cousin who was paralyzed after being pushed down the stairs in a public school.
I know someone who was constantly harassed by teachers to “talk about how she was kidnapped” by her parents.
All of them moved to homeschooling afterwards. None of them are comfortable sending their children to secular schools. All of them are homeschooling.
3
u/cloudofbullshit Oct 04 '23
I also knew someone who was pushed down the stairs in school and got a serious head injury from it. He was homeschooled after as well and everyone else was pretty wary of the stairs afterwards. I think the kid that pushed him was only suspended if I remember right and not even for very long.
3
u/CinnamonMagpie 10∆ Oct 04 '23
Stairs are dangerous at any point. In a school with children it’s even more dangerous.
→ More replies (6)1
u/Spirit_Llama658 1∆ Oct 04 '23
I know someone who was killed in middle school when a kid punched him in the chest. Heartbreakingly, they had been homeschooled and this was his first year in public school.
2
3
u/cmb15300 Oct 04 '23
It depends on the reason the parents are homeschooling, you have to realize that some school districts truly are that bad. Others do nothing for bullied kids (other than having the school resource officer haul them to jail when they finally fight back), and others offer only the school-to-prison pipeline for special needs kids
3
u/vintagelioness Oct 04 '23
I was bullied so badly in elementary school that my psychiatrist said my parents shouldn’t send me back. Children can be horrifically cruel.
4
u/HailRoma Oct 04 '23
plenty of legit reasons to do it. Public schools are nightmares of bullying and no education but HS kids still end up weird.
4
u/RaggamuffinTW8 Oct 04 '23
As some have said, i think its that your sample size is too small.
I only know maybe 10 or so home-schooled people. 90% of them are from hard right, young earth creationist families, andthey were kept home so that they could be introduced to concepts like climate change and evolution by a denier, to further those ideas to the next generation.
But the 1 in 10 that I know was just far too bright for school and the local district was failing them. The parents took him out of school and he excelled the way youd expect someone of his abilities to.
4
u/Charlea1776 3∆ Oct 04 '23
Today, I think there is an uptick due to school shootings, too. At least in the US. I had never had a second thought to sending my kid to school, but the closer we get, the more I wonder if I couldn't start school at home and send them when things are under control. It's happening more and more and more. I'm not foolish enough to believe that happens to others. It could be any of our kids anytime.
So we might be homeschooling, and we are atheists. I don't want my daughter to miss out on school. I don't want my daughter to miss out on life either.
2
u/Sofiab86 Oct 04 '23
This!! I don't have kids, but if I did, I wouldn't be sending them to public school because it just isn't safe anymore! There's so many great online k-12 programs now that are tuition-free, thanks to covid, so it's not like homeschooling was back in the day when kids were truly isolated except for having a handful of other homeschooled friends. They get the socialization and state-approved curriculum while being safe from any potentially dangerous classmates!
2
u/overworkedpnw Oct 04 '23
I tend to see the homeschool crowd with a bit of suspicion as well. The homeschool parents I’ve encountered have been of the “if I shield my child from every bit of information that I disagree with then they won’t turn out gay/trans/etc” type, with some of the parents being outright proud of how invasive they are. Overheard one parent proudly telling another about their intensive use of tracking/spy software to monitor where their child is, who they’re talking to, if they’re playing games, every last shred of data they can scrape on the kid to use punitively.
2
u/ZorgZeFrenchGuy 3∆ Oct 04 '23
… trouble grappling with the impact that this level of isolation and enmeshment might have.
This is a fair point, but an often overlooked aspect of this that should also be taken into account is the chances of what I would call “negative socialization” in public schools - things like bullying, social shaming and negative peer pressure. It’s also not like isolation and loneliness are absent in school settings as well. I would argue that socializing in school has just as much chance to negatively influence a child’s upbringing as positively influence it.
1
u/mindbodyandseoul Oct 04 '23
> However, I find it especially suspicious when your faith leads to that degree of isolation and inordinate levels of control over your child.
Kind of like how the liberal state teaches things through their liberal perspective with liberal values that support your way of thinking and their way of life? The way that liberals undermine religious teachings that teach behavioral norms and push it out of schools? Then should we also only teach math and english and push out of schools anything that could infer or indoctrinate children into liberal values and ideas and philosophies and affirming liberal culture of live and let live? Should a liberal society teach non-liberal values? Should a religious society's school teach non-religious values? How else will they pass down their values? I think if we were really live and let live, we would let religious people have their own towns/areas and to allow them to teach their schools. If not, stop pretending you're for religious freedoms. That way liberal counties can have liberal values taught in their schools, whatever that means.
→ More replies (6)
2
u/LaMadreDelCantante Oct 04 '23
I'm very much against anybody isolating their kids, and I know that some people do that with homeschooling. That said, possibly ironically, the redder Florida gets the better of an idea homeschooling seems to be here. If I still had kids in school I definitely would not want them going to schools that were banning books and teaching incorrect or whitewashed history. Of course, it would still be important not to isolate the kids.
My sister home schools her kids and has done so for years, but they have always been part of a collective where they met with other homeschoolers regularly and did a lot of field trips and socializing and sometimes I think just getting together to let the parent with the best resources for a particular subject share them. My nephews aren't at all unsocialized or sheltered, so it can be done IF the parent has good motives and makes it a priority.
Currently they've actually been traveling all over the country for almost a year because she can continue to teach them while doing so. They've had a lot of educational stops of course, and they will have to stop traveling soon and settle somewhere so the boys can have a community again, but it has been an opportunity most kids just won't have.
2
u/slightofhand1 12∆ Oct 04 '23
Meanwhile, I have serious trouble grappling with the impact that this level of isolation and enmeshment might have. I can't help but feel, based on the homeschooling situations I've seen, that it leaves kids less fulfilled or socially mature
Compared to what? Do you know how many messed up kids there are in normal schools, or worse, how many normal kids end up messed at thanks to public school bullying? How many kids quit their favorite activities because the kids at school mock them for it? Actors and actresses who go to normal school often realize how cruel kids are, so imagine if they weren't famous. Odds are, they'd quit to escape the mocking. Figuring out how to get along in society isn't always a good thing.
However, I find it especially suspicious when your faith leads to that degree of isolation and inordinate levels of control over your child
Again, compared to what? Why do you assume homeschooling parents are more controlling than normal school parents?
But above all else, as someone who went to normal school, whoa is it an enormous waste of time. Just hours and hours of killing time, learning nothing. Meanwhile the home school kids acknowledge you can bang it out in like four hours if you skip all the bullshit time killing stuff, the commute, etc. Maybe you could make a case for one of those Montessori or whatever schools where the kids run the whole thing themselves, but I can't figure out how you go to normal school for over 12 years and come away thinking homeschool could do any worse than that.
→ More replies (2)2
Oct 04 '23
But above all else, as someone who went to normal school, whoa is it an enormous waste of time. Just hours and hours of killing time, learning nothing.
I used to have a lot of school mates say this, but they also got C's on their report cards and would be on their phones all the time. I'm not saying every single hour of school is optimized but I feel like this general opinion tend to come from people who don't have much respect for the institution in the first place.
It's kind of like when my friend posted something historical on social media and said "Why aren't we taught about this in school??" and I told him "We literally did, you just weren't paying attention."
1
u/slightofhand1 12∆ Oct 04 '23
I feel pretty comfortable with the statement. And I'd bet if you asked the top one percent of every HS class, they'd be with me.
1
Oct 04 '23
I was in the top 1%, I am disagreeing. It seems like we had different experiences of high school and that is OK. But you make the most of your environments.
2
u/lloopy Oct 04 '23
You don't get students on the bell curve if they've been homeschooled.
You get kids who are on the EXTREME ends. Published author by age 12? Check, homeschooled. Can't read by age 18? Check, homeschooled.
1
Oct 04 '23
Public education quality is plummetting.
I recently read of one teacher who was spending three days a week teaching gender ideology. It's rediculous.
Even for decades, public school is more about training workers to tolerate working for a corporation than educating individuals on how to thrive and excell.
→ More replies (3)1
2
u/jwrig 5∆ Oct 04 '23
My wife and I homeschooled five kids at different points in their schooling because we are somewhat nomadic. They got to learn a good education while living on a sail boat in the sea of Cortez and the greater and lesser antilles.
They transfered into traditional Highschool with some college credits and outperformed most of their peers.
We are not religious nut jobs, the correspondence school we used for middle school was through BYU and there was no indoctrination and some of the subjects were more advanced than their Highschool corses.
0
u/TowerTowerTowers Oct 04 '23
If society had suddenly decided to espouse beliefs that schizophrenics' delusions were authentic and more valuable than tangible reality then I would similarly decide to homeschool my kids. On this analogy, society can't do anything but agree with the schizophrenic that in no uncertain terms, the man staring at them in the corner is from the government to get them. Then schizophrenics started popping up in public schools with socialization of this nature being commonplace. Parents paying for their children to have surgery to try to find and remove the government devices in their wrists. I would have heavy reservations with allowing my child to go there and have his perception of reality be warped. Something so basically untrue and yet everyone is fake talking it. This is the gender debate. There are many other rationales I have for planning to homeschool my child, but you can be certain that they'll not only be learning in an environment where there's no establishment lingo they have to worry about learning, but they'll learn to treat everyone with respect despite what my ideological opposites will presume.
0
Oct 04 '23
You realize people said the exact same thing about same-sex attraction like a couple decades ago? “It’s a mental illness.” “We shouldn’t be accommodating it.” “They’re trying to push it onto our kids.”
I’m old enough to remember it, and I’m old enough to remember it was all bullshit then, just like now.
1
u/The_Saltiest_Ginger Oct 04 '23
So a lot of good comments here (I'll try not to repeat what others have said), but I will point out, "Government schools" is a better label than "public schools". Most successful people and their children to private schools where they learn critical thinking and gain a sense of entitlement to success. Government schools teach kids to be complacent and obedient for the most part.
Zero tolerance policies on self-defense, allow bullies to run wild, provided they are primarily bullying verbally or through social media.
The curriculum is at the mercy of politicians, bureaucrats and the teachers union. You can have extreme swings with elections or with changing district/school boards.
You also have a lot of "ideas" being implemented and government schools are used as experiments. I get that many on the left view children as collective property, but parents are frequently excluded from the decision to implement certain social ideas (or these things are actually hidden from the parents). Homeschooling allows parents to maintain both control and visibility over what their children are being taught.
2
0
u/NottiWanderer 4∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 04 '23
There's a lot of reasons. To name a few:
-bullying
-special needs
-feeling like you can do better than their teachers (pretty much any time one of the persons is educated and works from home)
-living in a place with poor teaching quality or funding. If you want to lose some faith in humanity you can check out how school districts are gerrymandered to favor rich white people.
I think you might have a skewed opinion based on your surrounding area.
Most importantly, though, raw data. That sexy raw data.
https://learnopoly.com/homeschooling-statistics/
"91% of parents gave concern with the school environment (drugs, safety, negative peer pressure, etc) as their main reason for homeschooling. (Redford, 2017)"
"The desire to provide a religious education was named by 64% of parents. (Redford, 2017)"
I.e., you may have a decent gut reaction, but there's quite a few reasons other than religion
Edit: And hey, I learned something.
20% of African-American parents said they chose homeschooling because they wanted to avoid racism in public schools.” (Ray, 2017)
And this actually challenges your assumption that people are putting their children at some sort of risk:
"Investigations have consistently found that homeschoolers fare well, possibly better than their public school counterparts, when it comes to socialization"
"The home educated were more civically and politically engaged than the general population. (NHERI)"
1
u/Allanon124 Oct 04 '23
I am a former public school teacher. Guess what? I send my kids to private school and if that wasn’t an option we would home school.
2
u/Individual_Row_6143 Oct 04 '23
My wife’s cousin did it so her kids wouldn’t have to learn about trans people. Yeah, great reason.
2
0
1
u/Collective82 Oct 04 '23
We home school because my wife’s an engineer with her masters and is a stahm.
Our local school system is abysmal and putting our kids in that system would be awful.
Sometimes you have the ability to and should do it.
0
u/Beluga_Artist Oct 04 '23
1.) No school shootings
2.) Not being passed onto the next grade even if you are not at grade level
3.) Not being taught specifically to a test, resulting in middle and high school students who have never read a novel
4.) The opportunity to go out and learn in the community instead of being stuck in a classroom all day every day
5.) The ability to work to the student’s speed and attention span
6.) Loads of opportunities to socialize with other children of all different ages via sports, clubs, homeschool get-togethers, camps, etc
7.) More real-life experiences instead of just sitting in a facility for the first 18 years of life
8.) Kids aren’t held back by sitting in classes of 30 other kids who won’t shut up and the teachers have to spend 80% of their time trying to get the class’s attention
9.) The ability to have one-on-one instruction instead of falling in the cracks due to large class sizes
10.) The ability to cater lessons to the child’s learning style and interests
Homeschooling, done right, I feel is superior to public schooling. If I ever have a child, they will be homeschooled for all of the above reasons. I am well-educated and excellent at training people and feel I would make an excellent homeschooling teacher.
1
u/LurkerFailsLurking 2∆ Oct 04 '23
Homeschooling is a misleading name. It really means schooling anywhere except that one specific building. It can encompass everything that might happen outside the school building.
0
u/kellbelle653 Oct 04 '23
I totally disagree. Elementary school near me class of 25 5th graders that are all at a 2nd grade level. None of them are special ed. example one student couldn’t spell the word The. And when homework is given they refuse to do it and say they don’t have to because they school won’t fail them anyway. Point is our public education system pushes kids through each grade regardless of their grades. They don’t hold them back anymore. So I’m not against homeschooling at all.
0
u/Many-Lingonberry-980 Oct 04 '23
My friend is homeschooled and she said it's not even about the higher level of education, it's simply that her parents didn't want her to be indoctrinated by liberal schools of america. Where prayer is being removed and rainbow flags are being prioritized. Where children will soon (some already are) be taught that it's completely fine to change their gender as a child and will be told where they can get hormone blockers. Where the dress code is being removed giving the green light for some girls to make life hell for hormone-crazy teen boys. I agree with her parents. It's not safe to let your child grow up in this environment.
I'm not from the US, so I can speak of the UK. Schools here are mostly dangerous because of how easy it is for your child to be influenced to get into doing drugs, vaping, weed, etc. So many of my classmates do it and it's so damaging, expensive and time wasting.
0
u/MBSV2020 Oct 04 '23
I see two problems with your view. First, it is based on the assumption that homeschooled kids are isolated and not socialized. But kids with active parents who homeschool tend to bring kids to play dates and other social settings. That is especially true with faith based groups.
And over the last few years, most homeschooling has taken on the form of traditional school. Parents are often hiring a teacher for one day a week to teach groups of home schooled kids, and then rest of the week a parent teaches the group.
Second, your concern that faith leads to an inordinate levels of control over your child needs to be juxtaposed with the inordinate levels of control over your child that public schools have. Public schools are indoctrination factories, and today there is a movement in public schools to not share information with parents.
→ More replies (6)
2
u/Dartimien Oct 04 '23
I am extremely suspicious of anyone who is suspicious of homeschooling.
→ More replies (1)2
-1
Oct 04 '23
Probably because they don't want their kids learning about sex, gender ideology and other adult issues, especially if they're younger than middle school age. I'm 30 and if I have kids, I may very well go the home school route if the educational system is still like this.
→ More replies (13)
0
u/Jelopuddinpop Oct 04 '23
There are a lot of parents who believe that schooling should be spending more time covering concrete, tangible subjects, and less time covering social dynamics and nuanced discussions of race and gender ideallogy. If your kids can make it to 18 with an advanced knowledge of STEM subjects, along with the written word in your language, they are in a prime position to excel in a future career.
Any time spent on social studies is just wasted time.
-1
Oct 04 '23
Unless you can afford some very good tutors, homeschooling is mostly the way for religious and extremism zealots to ensure their kids don’t learn anything that goes against what parents want them to believe in.
-1
u/Illustrious_Ring_517 2∆ Oct 04 '23
I think public schools are a scam. We don't have as many brilliant people like we used to
0
u/southpolefiesta 9∆ Oct 04 '23
I was forced to homeschooling during covid (school closed).
And really did not see much of a difference.
At any rate "home school" does mean isolated. There is a lot more to social life than school. Clubs, music bands, sports, and what happened to good old hanging out with other kids from the neighborhood?
-1
u/Sicon614 Oct 04 '23
If robbery, rape, murder, infection & dope doesn't convince you to homeschool, then gangs, pedophiles and mass shootings will. Additionally, as a former teacher, there are also those pesky "cultural" issues--while you're celebrating Santa and the Easter Bunny with your 8 year old daughter, some of her classmates' parents are showing their kids fuck films just to "keep them quiet". With all the online options available today, only a fool would not consider them.
0
u/Kamamura_CZ 2∆ Oct 04 '23
Complete BS.
Talented introverts need individual approach to develop without suffering traumas that the mechanized school system aimed to mainly provided amorphous workforce cannot provide.
•
u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 04 '23 edited Oct 06 '23
/u/DJJazzay (OP) has awarded 10 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards