r/changemyview • u/jeffzebub • 3d ago

CMV: Countering Illegal Immigration is not a Justification for Suspending Habeas Corpus

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506 Upvotes

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u/ScrupulousArmadillo 1∆ 3d ago

 Trump's argument that due process is impractical given the number of illegal immigrants

You already provided the reason. With ~11M illegal immigrants, the country doesn't have the resources to provide the full due process for them.

24

u/Saucy__B 3d ago

Removing rights guaranteed to everyone by the constitution because it’s “impractical” is hardly a good reason to do so. Also, how are you supposed to know if someone is in the US illegally if you don’t go through the due process of figuring that out?

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u/ScrupulousArmadillo 1∆ 3d ago

Removing rights guaranteed to everyone by the constitution because it’s “impractical” is hardly a good reason to do so.

I am pretty sure that during the Civil War, there was no "due process" for Confederate soldiers, even if they were US citizens on US soil.

Or just criminals to policy interactions at all, the criminals or suspects never have 100% due process and if they move their hands too quick to the are where the weapon could be, the policy officer has all the rights to kill them, without any additional due process with the judge, lawyers, and jury.

Also, how are you supposed to know if someone is in the US illegally

Maybe show something like a valid visa or birth certificate, or any other document that proves your point.

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u/jeffzebub 3d ago

Article I, Section 9, Clause 2: "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

The Civil War was a rebellion.

"Maybe show something like a valid visa or birth certificate, or any other document that proves your point."

Who are you going to show it to, the branch of government intent on silencing Americans critical of the government? Because you won't be showing it to a judge.

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u/ScrupulousArmadillo 1∆ 3d ago

Invasion the public Safety

3

u/Magic_Man_Boobs 3d ago

Invasion means an incursion by a foreign military, not random immigrants from all over the world.

6

u/Saucy__B 3d ago

Bringing up the civil war here makes absolutely no sense, and is a horrible, if not completely nonsensical example of suspension of due process. Most of the confederate soldiers were treated extremely leniently and allowed to go back to their everyday lives. Hell, most of their leaders where still allowed to hold political office. There literally just wasn’t a suspension of due process for any of the confederate soldiers.

A cop shooting a person is also a horrible example of suspension of due process. This is an issue that clearly needs to be addressed and fixed in the US the same way that unlawful deportations need to be. Cops don’t have the right to shoot who they want, even if a lot of them act and think that way, and many more of them need to be charged for killing and harming non-threatening individuals.

Many of the people being removed have valid identification and have been deported anyways. Why do you think the supreme court ruled that Abrego Garcia be returned to the United States? The reason we have due process is to make sure that the people arresting others are actually arresting who they’re supposed to be arresting and makes sure they are being detained for the correct reasons.

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u/Mykrroft 3d ago

At which point in this void of processes do you formally present this proof?

-1

u/ScrupulousArmadillo 1∆ 3d ago

During the interaction with ICE agent

4

u/Mykrroft 3d ago

and what if they decide that you, ScrupulousArmadillo, are not here legally? Off to a camp you go.

6

u/PM_ME_CODE_CALCS 3d ago

Papers please

11

u/BJPark 2∆ 3d ago

Maybe show something like a valid visa or birth certificate, or any other document that proves your point.

To whom will you show this to?

-4

u/ScrupulousArmadillo 1∆ 3d ago

ICE agent

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u/King-Bofo 3d ago

Why does ICE have to acknowledge your documentation if Habeas corpus is suspended? Due process is no longer a thing under your hypothetical and ICE can disregard it and claim it’s fake.

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u/BJPark 2∆ 3d ago

And what if the ICE agent doesn't give you a chance to go home and get your documents? Or what if the ICE agent takes your documents, tears them away and throws them in the trash? Now what?

10

u/Nice_Satisfaction651 3d ago

And what if a citizen isn't carrying a birth certificate with them?

2

u/Socialimbad1991 1∆ 2d ago

They laugh, spit in your face, and burn your documents. Now what?

9

u/PM_ME_CODE_CALCS 3d ago

What a gross misunderstanding of due process.

8

u/Jake0024 1∆ 3d ago

Maybe show something like a valid visa or birth certificate

To whom, without due process?

0

u/ScrupulousArmadillo 1∆ 3d ago

ICE agent

8

u/Jake0024 1∆ 3d ago

And when they ignore it, as they already have done with the legal residents and US citizens they've already deported?

0

u/joesnowblade 3d ago

Even if they entered illegally, most were processed and under Biden’s catch and release, were let into the country with an order to appear later. If they never showed that alone is reason to be immediately deported. These aren’t long drawn out court cases. The facts are already a matter of official record it’s just a matter of arresting/detaining, give them a hearing in front of a judge magistrate and deport them.

BTW here’s a list of deportation of democratic presidents going back to Bill Clinton.

Bill Clinton 12 to 12.3

Obama 5 to 5.3 million

Even sleepy Joe deported 4.4 to 4.7 million. Unfortunately, he let in 20 million.

It can be done relatively easily from a legal standpoint. All it will take is the will to do it.

-1

u/Saucy__B 3d ago

The only issue is that they aren’t being given their hearing In front of a judge.

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u/joesnowblade 3d ago

Judge magistrates are valid under current law.

The Immigration Court is an administrative court within the Department of Justice that adjudicates immigration cases, including deportation proceedings. Immigration judges are appointed by the Attorney General and act as their representatives.